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We are extremely close to shutting down this thread for the same reasons the PUA thread was shut down. While some of the time this thread contains actual discussion with people asking help and people giving nice advice, it often gets derailed by rubbish that should not be here. The moderation team will be trying to steer this thread in a different direction from now on.
Posts of the following nature are banned:
1) ANYTHING regarding PUA. If your post contains the words 'alpha' or 'beta' or anything of that sort please don't hit post.
2) Stupid brags. You can tell us about your nice success stories with someone, but posts such as 'lol 50 Tinder matches' are a no-no.
3) Any misogynistic bullshit, including discussion about rape culture.
4) One night stands and random sex. These are basically brags that invariably devolve into gender role discussions and misogynistic comments.
Last chance, guys. This thread is for dating advice and sharing dating stories. While gender roles, sociocultural norms, and our biological imperative to reproduce are all tangentially related, these subjects are not the main purpose of the thread. Please AVOID these discussions. If you want to discuss them at length, go to PMs or start a blog. If you disagree with someone's ideologies, state that you disagree with them and why they won't work from a dating standpoint and move on. We will not tolerate any lengthy derailments that aren't directly about dating. |
On August 05 2018 07:27 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2018 06:20 NewSunshine wrote:
I've never found the argument of "what if who you really are is unattractive?" to hold water. To begin with, it's a circular and abstract argument that produces nothing useful. Obviously, if you're just an awful person, very few people will be attracted to you. That doesn't detract at all from the notion that honesty, and being in tune with yourself, are things people value highly. If you don't have that, you're going to have a very hard time finding a fulfilling relationship. The idea here is that many, many people struggle with dating and attracting women and/or finding fufilling relationships. The largest group of men most vocally complaining are those that have real trouble finding and even getting into a relationship women. If that describes someone it means there one of two things: 1) Not putting themselves out there and having opportunities to meet women 2) Not attractive If you go out, have a social life, use dating websites/apps, etc. then you're exposing yourself to tons of women. If none of these women want to date you, then it stands to reason something about you (personality + appearance + looks + other factors) is unattractive. If you totally own that version of you and love it, you might be okay with it, but you've still got the problem of not finding women. That tells me something about your personality/appearance must change, and is what I mean by personality being unattractive. There are guys out there owning who they are and being happy with it but still struggling mightily with women. Show nested quote +I also don't find the 0-10 attractiveness scale to be anything but crude objectification. It does nothing to explain why someone finds a person attractive, and often doesn't address anything but physical appearances. It's a flat number that holds almost no meaning.
I would say it ONLY address physical appearance, and that is the sole purpose of it. Looks, especially facial attractiveness, is decently objective as I already said. Nobody will find Brad Pitt ugly or even average looking. Everyone knows he is a good looking guy. Other aspects of personality though just don't work on any scale, because it varies tremendously. One guy might find a shy, introverted girl to be VERY sexy, while another is completely turned off. Certain traits are generally attractive to most people, and others generally unattractive; but the variety in personality preferences is huge, whereas in looks preference it's quite small. To this end, a number scale is used purely to describe physical attractiveness. That's the only meaning it holds. It's a way of quantifying physical attractiveness when we want to discuss it. For example, in online dating, especially tinder, attractiveness is quite important, and it's useful to have a way of quantify how attractive people are.
People are very often deemed unattractive off the back of, generally, a lack of confidence. It does not reflect on their personality in most cases. There are tons of cases where perfectly lovely or awesome people just don't have that confidence. That doesn't mean I would say their personality is lacking in any way.
Re: the 0-10 scale- physical attraction is important, but its importance is vastly overstated. Long-term relationships don't get built on physical attraction. The reason the scale is something I find useless is because I can find a girl plenty attractive physically, and still want to spend no time with her. I became friends with my GF well before we got romantic, and it's still very much a best friends+lover scenario. I can't imagine having what I do with her if all she had was her looks. So the fact that the scale is semi-objective still doesn't mean all that much, it's only one variable of attraction.
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I was at a club and was watching how a beautiful girl was approached by at least 3 different guys. Fuck knows why they try in such a noisy place but either way. She rejected all but one. He made her laugh a lot, but then her friends came back and started talking to her. He walked away shortly after. That cockblock must have hurt. :D It's also possible he got her phone number, but I'm not so sure with how this event unfolded.
To be honest, I think he also fucked himself by touching one of her friends' ass at some point. Props to him for having the guts to try his luck so spontaneously though.
I'm just sharing this story to show that what we do on Tinder is nothing in comparison to such confident people in real life.
Edit: From what I analysed, he focused on making her laugh, touching her regularly, some attempts to protect her from other people who wanted to pass and confidence. I think that was all. Hopefully this is helpful for someone. I don't approve his moves 100%, but I think he did very well except for that ass mistake. He also made her other friend laugh so that's nice too.
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On August 05 2018 07:52 Uldridge wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2018 05:23 L_Master wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 05 2018 05:16 Uldridge wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2018 01:12 L_Master wrote:
No, I was arguing that "nice guys" (which really is a bad term) with a solid life and genuinely good personality, if a bit low in things like confidence, masculinity, assertiveness, etc., are generally able to find relationships with women; however those relationships tend to involve far less attraction and sexual interest. I do genuinely believe that guys in a relationship like this are also much more likely to be cheated on.
For some men, this might be great. Personally, for me, I couldn't do it. For the same reason I could never be interested in a hooker/escort. The thought of having sex with or being in a relationship with someone who wasn't attracted to me is very much a turn off.
I might be in the minority though, because I feel like most guys I know would stick their dick in basically anything. So my question then becomes if you think that nice guys are being denied, aka, women are not making the right choice regarding certain men. Is women cheating on nice guys a problem regarding women or me. & so I thought your post implied nice guys finish last and you didn't like it. My bad. I don't think it's a question of right or wrong choice. Only the woman can decide if she has made a bad choice. Suggesting that women are making a right or wrong choice by picking a certain guy would be me imposing my value system onto them. On August 05 2018 04:44 Shalashaska_123 wrote:
Hi, L_Master.
Could I ask what it is about marriage that you find extremely appealing? The idea of meeting someone I care about so deeply I want to give myself to them for the rest of my life. Also, the idea of building a life together with someone you love. Then what is your value system and when do you impose it on a potential partner?
I don't ever impose my value system on a partner. I just wouldn't date someone if they didn't line up.
What I'm saying is that if someone tells women they are making the wrong choice about who to date, you're basically saying "I know more about who you should date than you do". It's a dude saying "my opinions about who you should date are more important than your opinions about who you should date."
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You're talking about a value system used to evaluate partners. I think Uldridge is referring to a value system like a personal philosophy, or the way you value living a life.
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I'll be honest, I was quite drunk when writing that response and thought I was being clever as fuck. But alas I don't really remember what I exactly meant by it. I think it was a mix of both (trying to salvage here lol).
I think you can try to argue with a potential partner why she should give you a chance and this can be a worthwhile (albeit with a low success chance), i.e. challenge her value system (or impose yours).
I also think you learn from each other while being in a relationship and both parties become more flexible in their vision of "living life", because you share yours with someone that might have a very different way of looking at it. For a stupid example: trying cheese (and a lot of different varieties) while you don't really like it. I think this is also imposing value systems (how trivial these values might be doesn't matter) on your partner, but this being something that just happens naturally. Fighting is literally imposing facets of different value systems on one another.
I did feel like you weren't answering my initial question though, but if you don't think certain mental profiles being welcomed or not by women is besides the point, I can live with that. But let me get your last part straight: you only think that women can decide if they decided on a good partner or not?
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On August 06 2018 04:00 Uldridge wrote:
But let me get your last part straight: you only think that women can decide if they decided on a good partner or not?
I think only the person in the relationship can make that call. In other words, if A is in a relationship with B, only A can say being with B is a good partner choice and only B can say being with A was a good partner choice.
This is because at the end of the day all that matters is was it a good relationship for you. If a relationship looks terrible looking in, but makes you a happy, fufillled person...thats a good relationship in my book.
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Sure, but by definition only relationships that last are those where both (usually) have made the right choice.
Or are there enough examples where the relationship, even if the right choice by both people has been made, still ends up in separation? Let's exclude acts of god, because having the love of your life being squashed by Godzilla seems a bit silly to take into account.
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On August 06 2018 06:09 Uldridge wrote:
Sure, but by definition only relationships that last are those where both (usually) have made the right choice.
Or are there enough examples where the relationship, even if the right choice by both people has been made, still ends up in separation? Let's exclude acts of god, because having the love of your life being squashed by Godzilla seems a bit silly to take into account.
At this point I'm not sure I know what you're saying.
But yes, you're first statements seems correct. The rare relationships that end mutually and amicably might be examples of two right choices even if the relationship ends.
But what it sounded like you were talking about was seeing a women get involved with a man, perhaps a stereotypical douchebag as you see him, and then trying to tell the woman she is picking the wrong guy.
You don't know that. Maybe she wants a rough dude that's just going to wildly fuck her for a little while. That might be the right choice for her at that time, and I don't think there is really a justifiable way to tell someone they've picked or are picking the wrong person.
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I'm just prying a little, man. Sorry if my wording/intention wasn't that clear at times 
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Lifting is the way for any man, I went from an incel to "swimming in pussy" or at least in opportunities (I do have a gf which I do no cheat on, but the indications of interest from girls even with their bfs by their arms happens daily and non-stop) after 2 years of consistent lifting.
I'd say it's very naive to think that the physical aspect isn't the most important factor by far, if you are good looking you don't really need game or a good personality for that matter.
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On August 06 2018 15:06 IshinShishi wrote:
Lifting is the way for any man, I went from an incel to "swimming in pussy" or at least in opportunities (I do have a gf which I do no cheat on, but the indications of interest from girls even with their bfs by their arms happens daily and non-stop) after 2 years of consistent lifting.
I'd say it's very naive to think that the physical aspect isn't the most important factor by far, if you are good looking you don't really need game or a good personality for that matter.
Did you lose a decent amount of fat in the process?
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You know the second people start throwing around words like incel, alpha or "swimming in pussy" that this conversation has gone off the deep end
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On August 06 2018 15:28 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2018 15:06 IshinShishi wrote:
Lifting is the way for any man, I went from an incel to "swimming in pussy" or at least in opportunities (I do have a gf which I do no cheat on, but the indications of interest from girls even with their bfs by their arms happens daily and non-stop) after 2 years of consistent lifting.
I'd say it's very naive to think that the physical aspect isn't the most important factor by far, if you are good looking you don't really need game or a good personality for that matter. Did you lose a decent amount of fat in the process?
Not really, I was your average thin dude before, not too thin either. Sorry about the vernacular, was trying to get the point across.
To put how important it is into perspective, the thing that I regret the most in life is not having started it sooner ( I started around 25). It changes a shit ton of aspects in your life for the better, getting much better with women/dating is just a plus.
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I regret not starting earlier with bouldering.
Your point being: do sports, feel confident.
You saying : this is the shit everyone needs to do.
That's clickbait level.
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On August 06 2018 17:07 Excludos wrote:
You know the second people start throwing around words like incel, alpha or "swimming in pussy" that this conversation has gone off the deep end
Personally, I don't have an issue with these worlds/phrases, except for the last because their are less vulgar/braggadocios ways of saying the same thing.
Incel movement isn't really legit imo, and the stuff those guys talk about goes wayyy of the deep end, but the idea of using incel as a term for a guy that can't seem to attract women is fine. Those people exist. Incel's tend to think it's all about looks and if you're below average your fucked, which is of course defeatist and ridiculous as we can tell be observing the world around us. Usually people that are self proclaimed "incel" are the guys that are a little below average in physical attractiveness that haven't developed strong social skills or confidence. Putting those two together, and working on neither, will render a guy fairly unable to have dating success. Using incel to describe such a guy doesn't bother me.
Alpha same thing. The problem is that it isn't clearly defined. Having a catchall word for traits that describe traditional masculinity isn't inherently a bad thing. The main problem is some people use alpha to refer to this blatantly assholish, player, mega jock type personality while others are using it to mean someone who is confident, assertive, sociable, and generally a leader. Again, a word referring to certain traits is not a bad thing.
And no, the conversation hasn't "gone off the deep end". I don't think you actually read posts because this is the second or third time you've posted an inflammatory, rather useless soundbite comment that's just blatantly wrong. Had you read what the guy right, the core of his comment was "go to the gym and workout, it makes a big difference". Sure, he couched his comment in some humble bragging and overkill language, but it's not off the deep end to suggest that working out can make a significant difference.
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On August 06 2018 15:06 IshinShishi wrote:
Lifting is the way for any man, I went from an incel to "swimming in pussy" or at least in opportunities (I do have a gf which I do no cheat on, but the indications of interest from girls even with their bfs by their arms happens daily and non-stop) after 2 years of consistent lifting.
I'd say it's very naive to think that the physical aspect isn't the most important factor by far, if you are good looking you don't really need game or a good personality for that matter.
I think you're exaggerating quite a bit, or more likely it's a combination of other factors if that dramatic of a difference happened. More likely, you got a little better looking and got a little more attention than before. Only way I see this really happening like you described is if you lost a ton of fat of your face while simultaneously getting an absolute top tier body. If that's the case, yea you probably get a decent number of people checking you out.
I'd say it's very naive to think that the physical aspect isn't the most important factor by far, if you are good looking you don't really need game or a good personality for that matter.
I disagree that the physical aspect is the "most important by far". Online, where you're being judged left or right by some pics, sure. In real life, not so much. Especially in real life the way most people are meeting women. If you're just picking women up for casual sex from clubs or bars, I agree to an extent. Physical attractiveness makes a bigger difference there again because you're not talking that much in those environments.
However, the majority of people as far as I can tell aren't really looking for these things and are meeting women more conventionally through various social channels: friend groups, classes, shared activities, etc. In these places where you have plenty of time to get to know each other, physical attractiveness is far, far less important.
The idea you don't need "game" or "personality" if you're good looking is ridiculous in any normal context for any normal guy. If you're a top tier looking guy, I'm talking like 1 in a 100k type looks or something, then yes many women will throw themselves at you, especially in online/club/bar/hookup environments. However, you won't be able to get anything long term if you're personality is trash. For just normal "good looking" people, personality matters quite a bit, even if trying to hookup. A typical 1 in 10 good looking dude that goes to the club would get nowhere if his personality/confidence were shit. Nowhere. It would be even more of a disaster if he was looking for a girlfriend through more traditional social circle means.
Tl;dr: Looks matter, especially online/bar/club/hookup goals. Personality matters, significantly, for all but ridiculously attractive actor tier dudes looking exclusively for hookups. The idea that personality doesn't matter if you're "good-looking" is ridiculous.
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On August 06 2018 06:09 Uldridge wrote:
Sure, but by definition only relationships that last are those where both (usually) have made the right choice.
Or are there enough examples where the relationship, even if the right choice by both people has been made, still ends up in separation? Let's exclude acts of god, because having the love of your life being squashed by Godzilla seems a bit silly to take into account.
The "Right Choice" divorced of a defined moral position is meaningless. If you don't believe it's "Right" for people to have a short-lived relationship, that's you projecting your idea of how life should be onto the world, and the people in the relationship in question.
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On August 07 2018 00:17 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2018 17:07 Excludos wrote:
You know the second people start throwing around words like incel, alpha or "swimming in pussy" that this conversation has gone off the deep end Personally, I don't have an issue with these worlds/phrases, except for the last because their are less vulgar/braggadocios ways of saying the same thing. Incel movement isn't really legit imo, and the stuff those guys talk about goes wayyy of the deep end, but the idea of using incel as a term for a guy that can't seem to attract women is fine. Those people exist. Incel's tend to think it's all about looks and if you're below average your fucked, which is of course defeatist and ridiculous as we can tell be observing the world around us. Usually people that are self proclaimed "incel" are the guys that are a little below average in physical attractiveness that haven't developed strong social skills or confidence. Putting those two together, and working on neither, will render a guy fairly unable to have dating success. Using incel to describe such a guy doesn't bother me. Alpha same thing. The problem is that it isn't clearly defined. Having a catchall word for traits that describe traditional masculinity isn't inherently a bad thing. The main problem is some people use alpha to refer to this blatantly assholish, player, mega jock type personality while others are using it to mean someone who is confident, assertive, sociable, and generally a leader. Again, a word referring to certain traits is not a bad thing. And no, the conversation hasn't "gone off the deep end". I don't think you actually read posts because this is the second or third time you've posted an inflammatory, rather useless soundbite comment that's just blatantly wrong. Had you read what the guy right, the core of his comment was "go to the gym and workout, it makes a big difference". Sure, he couched his comment in some humble bragging and overkill language, but it's not off the deep end to suggest that working out can make a significant difference.
I agree for the most part that these terms aren't clearly defined, but there are few cases where they can be legitimately used as well so you're better off steering away from them in the first place. If you want to define someone who's attractive, charming and socially adept as "alpha" then sure, but just proclaiming someone as "alpha" doesn't actually tell anyone anything, and 99% of the use cases for that word is meant to degrade someone else, so it's much better to just steer clear of it. Incel is pretty much the same, except the exact opposite. It's never a word to use if you want to give someone an actual advice, as it doesn't tell anyone anything, and the vast majority of people who uses it tends to either view it negatively or be in the group you described above with a lacking grasp of reality.
The reason I'm purposefully "rather useless soundbite" is because I didn't want to contribute to a conversation which should be stopping. This thread is on thin ice already, and throwing around these bad phrases and words are a great way of getting it locked again. And yes, I have been reading the posts, and I stand by my original first "useless soundbite": The world isn't nearly as black and white as half of you seem to think it is. You can't just proclaim that "girls like alphas" or "after lifting I'm swimming in pussy". It's not very helpful advice. Working out is always going to be helpful, but it's probably not what's going to make or break your love life. Girls are people too, and they have more taste than just "Ooh, muscles! I need dat dick nao!".
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You guys think I'm overly simplifying things, but you should really try it for yourselves, it's easy to dismiss it and I have heard the same arguments countless times, but I've also seen the results, not just for myself, but for the people around me too.
@L_Master I was never an ugly dude, but I definitely lacked some social skills, I still very much do, albeit considerably less. But, I do have a top 5% body, which I got after working out for 2-3 years consistently, and even during the first few months it made a change, even if it was just sort of a placebo effect. My idea is not to brag, but to convince some of you guys skeptical of going to the gym without even giving it the consideration it deserves, it's exactly to point out that if you bust your ass off enough, things will become much easier. Prior to my current relationship I did not really chase girls cold or even on tinder, I was shy to some extent, but also too proud to chase, with some confidence issues, but at one point I didn't need to, they literally came to me. That's my point, take it or leave it.
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EPT
