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We are extremely close to shutting down this thread for the same reasons the PUA thread was shut down. While some of the time this thread contains actual discussion with people asking help and people giving nice advice, it often gets derailed by rubbish that should not be here. The moderation team will be trying to steer this thread in a different direction from now on.
Posts of the following nature are banned:
1) ANYTHING regarding PUA. If your post contains the words 'alpha' or 'beta' or anything of that sort please don't hit post.
2) Stupid brags. You can tell us about your nice success stories with someone, but posts such as 'lol 50 Tinder matches' are a no-no.
3) Any misogynistic bullshit, including discussion about rape culture.
4) One night stands and random sex. These are basically brags that invariably devolve into gender role discussions and misogynistic comments.
Last chance, guys. This thread is for dating advice and sharing dating stories. While gender roles, sociocultural norms, and our biological imperative to reproduce are all tangentially related, these subjects are not the main purpose of the thread. Please AVOID these discussions. If you want to discuss them at length, go to PMs or start a blog. If you disagree with someone's ideologies, state that you disagree with them and why they won't work from a dating standpoint and move on. We will not tolerate any lengthy derailments that aren't directly about dating. |
I will add that I do not find the goal to be to date as many people as possible. I don't think having 20 past relationships that all failed is something to be proud of or brag about. Anything I say on the subject is predicated on the fact that the person seeking advice is looking for something stable, something genuine, and hopefully long-term, but most good advice applies to casual dating as well.
I don't think a successful dating life consists of finding that "something" that the most people find attractive, I consider it to consist of being yourself and loving yourself, and dating someone as a means of sharing who you are and what you do with them.
If you're casually looking for something not terribly serious, you should expect it to be a numbers game, but falling into the trap of playing any other kind of game will keep you from growing into developing any kind of more mature relationship. A real relationship is something where you need to be sure of yourself, and willing to open all of yourself to another person. The games that people play trying to find "the key" are little more than a smokescreen that comes from not wanting to face that.
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On August 05 2018 03:17 Artisreal wrote:
If you try to game the system when dating, do not be surprised when nothing long term develops.
To love means to be vulnerable, to open oneself to the other. If you're too afraid of getting hurt and want to exclude the possibility of your partner cheating on you beforehand, you're in for a rough ride finding a partner.
I don't understand what point you are trying to make.
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On August 05 2018 03:36 GoTuNk! wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2018 03:17 Artisreal wrote:
If you try to game the system when dating, do not be surprised when nothing long term develops.
To love means to be vulnerable, to open oneself to the other. If you're too afraid of getting hurt and want to exclude the possibility of your partner cheating on you beforehand, you're in for a rough ride finding a partner. I don't understand what point you are trying to make.
The point is that dating is a simple thing, that folks in this thread try to make more complicated than it is. Trying to find possible reasons for trends in divorce rates, reasons why sexual interest allegedly drops to 0 after marriage, or why internet dating makes women not want to date a man that's good for them, or why women are genetically predisposed to be the reason passion in a relationship drops off, et cetera, et cetera. It's all pretty much bullshit. It's looking for reasons why you shouldn't have to try to be a decent person, reasons to blame people for just not seeing how amazing you are. Dating is about finding someone that you find interesting, and wanting to share yourself with them. That requires that both people involved see things in the other that they like, and that goes way beyond physical attributes. The rest is just looking for excuses.
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On August 05 2018 03:34 NewSunshine wrote:
I will add that I do not find the goal to be to date as many people as possible. I don't think having 20 past relationships that all failed is something to be proud of or brag about. Anything I say on the subject is predicated on the fact that the person seeking advice is looking for something stable, something genuine, and hopefully long-term, but most good advice applies to casual dating as well.
I don't think a successful dating life consists of finding that "something" that the most people find attractive, I consider it to consist of being yourself and loving yourself, and dating someone as a means of sharing who you are and what you do with them.
If you're casually looking for something not terribly serious, you should expect it to be a numbers game, but falling into the trap of playing any other kind of game will keep you from growing into developing any kind of more mature relationship. A real relationship is something where you need to be sure of yourself, and willing to open all of yourself to another person. The games that people play trying to find "the key" are little more than a smokescreen that comes from not wanting to face that.
I don't think it's fair to say a relationship "failed" just because it didn't last forever. Sometimes you have what someone needs, and vice versa, and that's good for a while, but not forever. So you go your separate ways when it stops being good. Is that a failure? A ridiculous assumption.
Why is a purely monogamous relationship that lasts a long time more "mature". The relationship itself could mature, but it could also get stale, or rot, or any other word that has to do with the passage of time that doesn't paint long term monogamous relationships in a positive light. You need to admit a bias.
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On August 05 2018 03:56 ThunderJunk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2018 03:34 NewSunshine wrote:
I will add that I do not find the goal to be to date as many people as possible. I don't think having 20 past relationships that all failed is something to be proud of or brag about. Anything I say on the subject is predicated on the fact that the person seeking advice is looking for something stable, something genuine, and hopefully long-term, but most good advice applies to casual dating as well.
I don't think a successful dating life consists of finding that "something" that the most people find attractive, I consider it to consist of being yourself and loving yourself, and dating someone as a means of sharing who you are and what you do with them.
If you're casually looking for something not terribly serious, you should expect it to be a numbers game, but falling into the trap of playing any other kind of game will keep you from growing into developing any kind of more mature relationship. A real relationship is something where you need to be sure of yourself, and willing to open all of yourself to another person. The games that people play trying to find "the key" are little more than a smokescreen that comes from not wanting to face that. I don't think it's fair to say a relationship "failed" just because it didn't last forever. Sometimes you have what someone needs, and vice versa, and that's good for a while, but not forever. So you go your separate ways when it stops being good. Is that a failure? A ridiculous assumption.
Perhaps end is a better word than fail, not every relationship ends for bad reasons. My point stands nonetheless. If you go through a large number of relationships that don't last, it's probably to do with not knowing what you want.
On August 05 2018 03:56 ThunderJunk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2018 03:34 NewSunshine wrote:
I will add that I do not find the goal to be to date as many people as possible. I don't think having 20 past relationships that all failed is something to be proud of or brag about. Anything I say on the subject is predicated on the fact that the person seeking advice is looking for something stable, something genuine, and hopefully long-term, but most good advice applies to casual dating as well.
I don't think a successful dating life consists of finding that "something" that the most people find attractive, I consider it to consist of being yourself and loving yourself, and dating someone as a means of sharing who you are and what you do with them.
If you're casually looking for something not terribly serious, you should expect it to be a numbers game, but falling into the trap of playing any other kind of game will keep you from growing into developing any kind of more mature relationship. A real relationship is something where you need to be sure of yourself, and willing to open all of yourself to another person. The games that people play trying to find "the key" are little more than a smokescreen that comes from not wanting to face that. Why is a purely monogamous relationship that lasts a long time more "mature". The relationship itself could mature, but it could also get stale, or rot, or any other word that has to do with the passage of time that doesn't paint long term monogamous relationships in a positive light. You need to admit a bias.
I don't necessarily define a mature relationship as long term monogamy. Most of the time it takes that form, but not always. I define mature as something with two or more people who know what everyone involved wants, and are able to be honest and respectful about it. I'm not here to bicker about the problems people encounter in long term relationships.
But spoilers, when you spend a significant part of your life with someone, there will always be difficulties and problems. It's how you face them that marks you a mature partner.
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On August 05 2018 04:00 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2018 03:56 ThunderJunk wrote:On August 05 2018 03:34 NewSunshine wrote:
I will add that I do not find the goal to be to date as many people as possible. I don't think having 20 past relationships that all failed is something to be proud of or brag about. Anything I say on the subject is predicated on the fact that the person seeking advice is looking for something stable, something genuine, and hopefully long-term, but most good advice applies to casual dating as well.
I don't think a successful dating life consists of finding that "something" that the most people find attractive, I consider it to consist of being yourself and loving yourself, and dating someone as a means of sharing who you are and what you do with them.
If you're casually looking for something not terribly serious, you should expect it to be a numbers game, but falling into the trap of playing any other kind of game will keep you from growing into developing any kind of more mature relationship. A real relationship is something where you need to be sure of yourself, and willing to open all of yourself to another person. The games that people play trying to find "the key" are little more than a smokescreen that comes from not wanting to face that. I don't think it's fair to say a relationship "failed" just because it didn't last forever. Sometimes you have what someone needs, and vice versa, and that's good for a while, but not forever. So you go your separate ways when it stops being good. Is that a failure? A ridiculous assumption. Perhaps end is a better word than fail, not every relationship ends for bad reasons. My point stands nonetheless. If you go through a large number of relationships that don't last, it's probably to do with not knowing what you want.
Show nested quote +On August 05 2018 03:56 ThunderJunk wrote:On August 05 2018 03:34 NewSunshine wrote:
I will add that I do not find the goal to be to date as many people as possible. I don't think having 20 past relationships that all failed is something to be proud of or brag about. Anything I say on the subject is predicated on the fact that the person seeking advice is looking for something stable, something genuine, and hopefully long-term, but most good advice applies to casual dating as well.
I don't think a successful dating life consists of finding that "something" that the most people find attractive, I consider it to consist of being yourself and loving yourself, and dating someone as a means of sharing who you are and what you do with them.
If you're casually looking for something not terribly serious, you should expect it to be a numbers game, but falling into the trap of playing any other kind of game will keep you from growing into developing any kind of more mature relationship. A real relationship is something where you need to be sure of yourself, and willing to open all of yourself to another person. The games that people play trying to find "the key" are little more than a smokescreen that comes from not wanting to face that. Why is a purely monogamous relationship that lasts a long time more "mature". The relationship itself could mature, but it could also get stale, or rot, or any other word that has to do with the passage of time that doesn't paint long term monogamous relationships in a positive light. You need to admit a bias. I don't necessarily define a mature relationship as long term monogamy. Most of the time it takes that form, but not always. I define mature as something with two or more people who know what everyone involved wants, and are able to be honest and respectful about it. I'm not here to bicker about the problems people encounter in long term relationships. But spoilers, when you spend a significant part of your life with someone, there will always be difficulties and problems. It's how you face them that marks you a mature partner.
It's not something that should be shamed or frowned upon either.
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On August 05 2018 04:16 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2018 04:00 NewSunshine wrote:On August 05 2018 03:56 ThunderJunk wrote:On August 05 2018 03:34 NewSunshine wrote:
I will add that I do not find the goal to be to date as many people as possible. I don't think having 20 past relationships that all failed is something to be proud of or brag about. Anything I say on the subject is predicated on the fact that the person seeking advice is looking for something stable, something genuine, and hopefully long-term, but most good advice applies to casual dating as well.
I don't think a successful dating life consists of finding that "something" that the most people find attractive, I consider it to consist of being yourself and loving yourself, and dating someone as a means of sharing who you are and what you do with them.
If you're casually looking for something not terribly serious, you should expect it to be a numbers game, but falling into the trap of playing any other kind of game will keep you from growing into developing any kind of more mature relationship. A real relationship is something where you need to be sure of yourself, and willing to open all of yourself to another person. The games that people play trying to find "the key" are little more than a smokescreen that comes from not wanting to face that. I don't think it's fair to say a relationship "failed" just because it didn't last forever. Sometimes you have what someone needs, and vice versa, and that's good for a while, but not forever. So you go your separate ways when it stops being good. Is that a failure? A ridiculous assumption. Perhaps end is a better word than fail, not every relationship ends for bad reasons. My point stands nonetheless. If you go through a large number of relationships that don't last, it's probably to do with not knowing what you want.
On August 05 2018 03:56 ThunderJunk wrote:On August 05 2018 03:34 NewSunshine wrote:
I will add that I do not find the goal to be to date as many people as possible. I don't think having 20 past relationships that all failed is something to be proud of or brag about. Anything I say on the subject is predicated on the fact that the person seeking advice is looking for something stable, something genuine, and hopefully long-term, but most good advice applies to casual dating as well.
I don't think a successful dating life consists of finding that "something" that the most people find attractive, I consider it to consist of being yourself and loving yourself, and dating someone as a means of sharing who you are and what you do with them.
If you're casually looking for something not terribly serious, you should expect it to be a numbers game, but falling into the trap of playing any other kind of game will keep you from growing into developing any kind of more mature relationship. A real relationship is something where you need to be sure of yourself, and willing to open all of yourself to another person. The games that people play trying to find "the key" are little more than a smokescreen that comes from not wanting to face that. Why is a purely monogamous relationship that lasts a long time more "mature". The relationship itself could mature, but it could also get stale, or rot, or any other word that has to do with the passage of time that doesn't paint long term monogamous relationships in a positive light. You need to admit a bias. I don't necessarily define a mature relationship as long term monogamy. Most of the time it takes that form, but not always. I define mature as something with two or more people who know what everyone involved wants, and are able to be honest and respectful about it. I'm not here to bicker about the problems people encounter in long term relationships. But spoilers, when you spend a significant part of your life with someone, there will always be difficulties and problems. It's how you face them that marks you a mature partner. It's not something that should be shamed or frowned upon either.
I absolutely don't intend to do that. Everyone has to figure that out at some point. I only take issue with people that treat raw # of past relationships as an accomplishment.
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On August 05 2018 04:18 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2018 04:16 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 05 2018 04:00 NewSunshine wrote:On August 05 2018 03:56 ThunderJunk wrote:On August 05 2018 03:34 NewSunshine wrote:
I will add that I do not find the goal to be to date as many people as possible. I don't think having 20 past relationships that all failed is something to be proud of or brag about. Anything I say on the subject is predicated on the fact that the person seeking advice is looking for something stable, something genuine, and hopefully long-term, but most good advice applies to casual dating as well.
I don't think a successful dating life consists of finding that "something" that the most people find attractive, I consider it to consist of being yourself and loving yourself, and dating someone as a means of sharing who you are and what you do with them.
If you're casually looking for something not terribly serious, you should expect it to be a numbers game, but falling into the trap of playing any other kind of game will keep you from growing into developing any kind of more mature relationship. A real relationship is something where you need to be sure of yourself, and willing to open all of yourself to another person. The games that people play trying to find "the key" are little more than a smokescreen that comes from not wanting to face that. I don't think it's fair to say a relationship "failed" just because it didn't last forever. Sometimes you have what someone needs, and vice versa, and that's good for a while, but not forever. So you go your separate ways when it stops being good. Is that a failure? A ridiculous assumption. Perhaps end is a better word than fail, not every relationship ends for bad reasons. My point stands nonetheless. If you go through a large number of relationships that don't last, it's probably to do with not knowing what you want.
On August 05 2018 03:56 ThunderJunk wrote:On August 05 2018 03:34 NewSunshine wrote:
I will add that I do not find the goal to be to date as many people as possible. I don't think having 20 past relationships that all failed is something to be proud of or brag about. Anything I say on the subject is predicated on the fact that the person seeking advice is looking for something stable, something genuine, and hopefully long-term, but most good advice applies to casual dating as well.
I don't think a successful dating life consists of finding that "something" that the most people find attractive, I consider it to consist of being yourself and loving yourself, and dating someone as a means of sharing who you are and what you do with them.
If you're casually looking for something not terribly serious, you should expect it to be a numbers game, but falling into the trap of playing any other kind of game will keep you from growing into developing any kind of more mature relationship. A real relationship is something where you need to be sure of yourself, and willing to open all of yourself to another person. The games that people play trying to find "the key" are little more than a smokescreen that comes from not wanting to face that. Why is a purely monogamous relationship that lasts a long time more "mature". The relationship itself could mature, but it could also get stale, or rot, or any other word that has to do with the passage of time that doesn't paint long term monogamous relationships in a positive light. You need to admit a bias. I don't necessarily define a mature relationship as long term monogamy. Most of the time it takes that form, but not always. I define mature as something with two or more people who know what everyone involved wants, and are able to be honest and respectful about it. I'm not here to bicker about the problems people encounter in long term relationships. But spoilers, when you spend a significant part of your life with someone, there will always be difficulties and problems. It's how you face them that marks you a mature partner. It's not something that should be shamed or frowned upon either. I absolutely don't intend to do that. Everyone has to figure that out at some point. I only take issue with people that treat raw # of past relationships as an accomplishment.
I appreciate your expansion. Thank you for clarifying :-)
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Hi, L_Master.
Could I ask what it is about marriage that you find extremely appealing?
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On August 05 2018 04:40 ThunderJunk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2018 04:18 NewSunshine wrote:On August 05 2018 04:16 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 05 2018 04:00 NewSunshine wrote:On August 05 2018 03:56 ThunderJunk wrote:On August 05 2018 03:34 NewSunshine wrote:
I will add that I do not find the goal to be to date as many people as possible. I don't think having 20 past relationships that all failed is something to be proud of or brag about. Anything I say on the subject is predicated on the fact that the person seeking advice is looking for something stable, something genuine, and hopefully long-term, but most good advice applies to casual dating as well.
I don't think a successful dating life consists of finding that "something" that the most people find attractive, I consider it to consist of being yourself and loving yourself, and dating someone as a means of sharing who you are and what you do with them.
If you're casually looking for something not terribly serious, you should expect it to be a numbers game, but falling into the trap of playing any other kind of game will keep you from growing into developing any kind of more mature relationship. A real relationship is something where you need to be sure of yourself, and willing to open all of yourself to another person. The games that people play trying to find "the key" are little more than a smokescreen that comes from not wanting to face that. I don't think it's fair to say a relationship "failed" just because it didn't last forever. Sometimes you have what someone needs, and vice versa, and that's good for a while, but not forever. So you go your separate ways when it stops being good. Is that a failure? A ridiculous assumption. Perhaps end is a better word than fail, not every relationship ends for bad reasons. My point stands nonetheless. If you go through a large number of relationships that don't last, it's probably to do with not knowing what you want.
On August 05 2018 03:56 ThunderJunk wrote:On August 05 2018 03:34 NewSunshine wrote:
I will add that I do not find the goal to be to date as many people as possible. I don't think having 20 past relationships that all failed is something to be proud of or brag about. Anything I say on the subject is predicated on the fact that the person seeking advice is looking for something stable, something genuine, and hopefully long-term, but most good advice applies to casual dating as well.
I don't think a successful dating life consists of finding that "something" that the most people find attractive, I consider it to consist of being yourself and loving yourself, and dating someone as a means of sharing who you are and what you do with them.
If you're casually looking for something not terribly serious, you should expect it to be a numbers game, but falling into the trap of playing any other kind of game will keep you from growing into developing any kind of more mature relationship. A real relationship is something where you need to be sure of yourself, and willing to open all of yourself to another person. The games that people play trying to find "the key" are little more than a smokescreen that comes from not wanting to face that. Why is a purely monogamous relationship that lasts a long time more "mature". The relationship itself could mature, but it could also get stale, or rot, or any other word that has to do with the passage of time that doesn't paint long term monogamous relationships in a positive light. You need to admit a bias. I don't necessarily define a mature relationship as long term monogamy. Most of the time it takes that form, but not always. I define mature as something with two or more people who know what everyone involved wants, and are able to be honest and respectful about it. I'm not here to bicker about the problems people encounter in long term relationships. But spoilers, when you spend a significant part of your life with someone, there will always be difficulties and problems. It's how you face them that marks you a mature partner. It's not something that should be shamed or frowned upon either. I absolutely don't intend to do that. Everyone has to figure that out at some point. I only take issue with people that treat raw # of past relationships as an accomplishment. I appreciate your expansion. Thank you for clarifying :-)
No problem, friend. I appreciate how receptive you seem to be.
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On August 05 2018 04:46 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2018 04:40 ThunderJunk wrote:On August 05 2018 04:18 NewSunshine wrote:On August 05 2018 04:16 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 05 2018 04:00 NewSunshine wrote:On August 05 2018 03:56 ThunderJunk wrote:On August 05 2018 03:34 NewSunshine wrote:
I will add that I do not find the goal to be to date as many people as possible. I don't think having 20 past relationships that all failed is something to be proud of or brag about. Anything I say on the subject is predicated on the fact that the person seeking advice is looking for something stable, something genuine, and hopefully long-term, but most good advice applies to casual dating as well.
I don't think a successful dating life consists of finding that "something" that the most people find attractive, I consider it to consist of being yourself and loving yourself, and dating someone as a means of sharing who you are and what you do with them.
If you're casually looking for something not terribly serious, you should expect it to be a numbers game, but falling into the trap of playing any other kind of game will keep you from growing into developing any kind of more mature relationship. A real relationship is something where you need to be sure of yourself, and willing to open all of yourself to another person. The games that people play trying to find "the key" are little more than a smokescreen that comes from not wanting to face that. I don't think it's fair to say a relationship "failed" just because it didn't last forever. Sometimes you have what someone needs, and vice versa, and that's good for a while, but not forever. So you go your separate ways when it stops being good. Is that a failure? A ridiculous assumption. Perhaps end is a better word than fail, not every relationship ends for bad reasons. My point stands nonetheless. If you go through a large number of relationships that don't last, it's probably to do with not knowing what you want.
On August 05 2018 03:56 ThunderJunk wrote:On August 05 2018 03:34 NewSunshine wrote:
I will add that I do not find the goal to be to date as many people as possible. I don't think having 20 past relationships that all failed is something to be proud of or brag about. Anything I say on the subject is predicated on the fact that the person seeking advice is looking for something stable, something genuine, and hopefully long-term, but most good advice applies to casual dating as well.
I don't think a successful dating life consists of finding that "something" that the most people find attractive, I consider it to consist of being yourself and loving yourself, and dating someone as a means of sharing who you are and what you do with them.
If you're casually looking for something not terribly serious, you should expect it to be a numbers game, but falling into the trap of playing any other kind of game will keep you from growing into developing any kind of more mature relationship. A real relationship is something where you need to be sure of yourself, and willing to open all of yourself to another person. The games that people play trying to find "the key" are little more than a smokescreen that comes from not wanting to face that. Why is a purely monogamous relationship that lasts a long time more "mature". The relationship itself could mature, but it could also get stale, or rot, or any other word that has to do with the passage of time that doesn't paint long term monogamous relationships in a positive light. You need to admit a bias. I don't necessarily define a mature relationship as long term monogamy. Most of the time it takes that form, but not always. I define mature as something with two or more people who know what everyone involved wants, and are able to be honest and respectful about it. I'm not here to bicker about the problems people encounter in long term relationships. But spoilers, when you spend a significant part of your life with someone, there will always be difficulties and problems. It's how you face them that marks you a mature partner. It's not something that should be shamed or frowned upon either. I absolutely don't intend to do that. Everyone has to figure that out at some point. I only take issue with people that treat raw # of past relationships as an accomplishment. I appreciate your expansion. Thank you for clarifying :-) No problem, friend. I appreciate how receptive you seem to be.
I'm getting up there myself. I constantly feel an internal struggle of not knowing what I want. It changes from day to day. Every time I think I pin it down, my situation changes and my wants change right along with it. There are a few things that remain constant most of the time, like I never want to watch porn, because that seems to amplify the chaos in my mind.
I'm beginning to think that knowing what I want a priori is actually the wrong approach. Maybe I should go into every social situation as a blank slate, or as near to one as I can muster being, and let things evolve as they will... But then I am afraid of becoming a tool of someone else's agenda, and being powerless to go my own way.
I also have a bunch of plays that work pretty well to at least make conversation, and then from there it seems to be, "If we're able to connect, let's continue". So it feels like this arbitrary unsolvable balance between preconstructed plays and reactive flow. And it feels like there's no right answer as to how much of either I should employ. It feels like there is no right way to decide where I should end up. I am lost in a torrent of evanescent desire.
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On August 05 2018 02:39 farvacola wrote:
Except he didn't label you a hookup obsessed PUA guy, he's simply referring to the rhetoric and approach you seem to be adhering to. No matter the label used, this form-obsessed, "data-driven" attitude towards dating is the sort that inures folks to very problematic conceptions of other people, both sexes and all those in between and outside included. Instead of attempting to stuff dating and regarding the other sex into this overly rigid framework that hollowly convinces itself of its own rationality, why not just focus on the basic building block of relationships, that being attempting to understand and interact with people other than yourself? As tempting as it is, no amount of probability-gaming, number crunching, or variable minding is going to makeup for simply heading out into the world and talking with others, be it digitally or in person.
To be honest, I'm mostly reading your post and nodding and agreeing.
I don't see it as a rigid framework.In fact, I'm not sure what of my post you've taken as rigid. The only place I've been using data is when it comes to cheating/divocre rates in relationships, because if you're going to make a claim that "cheating is common" you need to back that up with data and establish what is common.
I don't think I've argued for using data in any other manner when it comes to dating or relationship and I agree completely when you say "no amount of probability-gaming, number crunching, or variable minding is going to makeup for simply heading out into the world and talking with others, be it digitally or in person."
I see it as a question of how to develop yourself at as a person. It's not "say X, do Y". It's shooting to become a more attractive person. I do think it's ridiculous to deny that there aren't generally attractive personality traits, and that you should shoot to develop those. To be clear, thats not acting a certain way while dating, that's working on your wholistic personality in all contexts. It's NOT "saying the right shit to a women to turn her on". It's about being the type of person that is attractive to women naturally.
This also goes hand in hand with attempting to understand and interact with people other than yourself as you say. That's what you should be doing during any interaction, having already developed a naturally attractive personality.
I don't think it's controversial to assert that many ostensibly datable women both do not like and can sense that a particular mate is the sort that thinks some kind of pseudo-rational, problem-solving framework will get them a life partner. It's not a coincidence that the concept of "dude who has game dates many women" turns so many people off, men and women included.
I agree strongly.
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On August 05 2018 01:12 L_Master wrote:
No, I was arguing that "nice guys" (which really is a bad term) with a solid life and genuinely good personality, if a bit low in things like confidence, masculinity, assertiveness, etc., are generally able to find relationships with women; however those relationships tend to involve far less attraction and sexual interest. I do genuinely believe that guys in a relationship like this are also much more likely to be cheated on.
For some men, this might be great. Personally, for me, I couldn't do it. For the same reason I could never be interested in a hooker/escort. The thought of having sex with or being in a relationship with someone who wasn't attracted to me is very much a turn off.
I might be in the minority though, because I feel like most guys I know would stick their dick in basically anything.
So my question then becomes if you think that nice guys are being denied, aka, women are not making the right choice regarding certain men. Is women cheating on nice guys a problem regarding women or me. & so I thought your post implied nice guys finish last and you didn't like it. My bad.
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On August 05 2018 03:04 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2018 02:49 mahrgell wrote:
I have to mention, that this Dating thread just brought a new First to me on TL. For the first time I find a thread in which I agree with LegalLord. That's just great :D Yeah, I agree completely xD As for the notion of the "unfair advantage of attractive vs. unattractive people", I puked in my mouth a little. Attraction is a super amorphous thing, it varies from person to person.
It's not super amorphous. In fact when assigned on a scale standard deviation is found to be about .5. This means that is someone average a 7, 98% of people will see them as between a 5.5 and a 8.5. Most people, about 2/3 will find someone who averages a 7 to be between a 6.5 and a 7.5.
and the average unattractive person has a surprising amount of power to change that and become someone that someone else would want to date.
Of course. And to be clear, I'm talking less about attraction in dating and more in terms of overall aspects. This will get you more towards the concept of what I'm talking about: Impact of Physical Appearance
I know I sure as hell wouldn't want to date someone who's so quick to give up and blame genetics for their problems. For all you know, those people who are so unfairly attractive put a ton of work and self-care into becoming so. Take responsibility for your state of affairs.
Nobody is giving up, and I'm not talking about attractiveness in that context. Why are people so terrible sometimes at taking something that somebody said and turning it into something completely different?
This last part I quoted is spot on. 100% agree. You can work on attractivness, but only to degree. The main things I'm talking about are height, size (can control this one the most) and especially facial attractiveness.
My point was very clearly that these things are absolutely NOT a reason to give up. But we have inherent biases towards attractive people. Their is a whole host of biases that people attribute to attractive and unattractive people. My point was not to say "oh how unfair"....it was to be aware of these biases in YOURSELF and work to counter them. It was a self improvement point, from a perspective of me trying to be aware and make sure I'm treating all people fairly...and somehow you bastardized it to suggest that I was suggesting it was unfair and we should just give up.
Some people here, and I am using you as an example, are not doing a good job of reading what the person is actually saying or asking clarifying questions before jumping to conclusions about what the poster meant.
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On August 05 2018 05:16 Uldridge wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2018 01:12 L_Master wrote:
No, I was arguing that "nice guys" (which really is a bad term) with a solid life and genuinely good personality, if a bit low in things like confidence, masculinity, assertiveness, etc., are generally able to find relationships with women; however those relationships tend to involve far less attraction and sexual interest. I do genuinely believe that guys in a relationship like this are also much more likely to be cheated on.
For some men, this might be great. Personally, for me, I couldn't do it. For the same reason I could never be interested in a hooker/escort. The thought of having sex with or being in a relationship with someone who wasn't attracted to me is very much a turn off.
I might be in the minority though, because I feel like most guys I know would stick their dick in basically anything. So my question then becomes if you think that nice guys are being denied, aka, women are not making the right choice regarding certain men. Is women cheating on nice guys a problem regarding women or me. & so I thought your post implied nice guys finish last and you didn't like it. My bad.
I don't think it's a question of right or wrong choice. Only the woman can decide if she has made a bad choice. Suggesting that women are making a right or wrong choice by picking a certain guy would be me imposing my value system onto them.
On August 05 2018 04:44 Shalashaska_123 wrote:
Hi, L_Master.
Could I ask what it is about marriage that you find extremely appealing?
The idea of meeting someone I care about so deeply I want to give myself to them for the rest of my life. Also, the idea of building a life together with someone you love.
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On August 05 2018 03:34 NewSunshine wrote:
I don't think a successful dating life consists of finding that "something" that the most people find attractive, I consider it to consist of being yourself and loving yourself, and dating someone as a means of sharing who you are and what you do with them.
I'm sorry, but I think this is really wrong, at least the part about being yourself and loving yourself. You're right it's not about finding that something that most people find attractive...but it is about becoming a more attractive person.
If "being yourself" is not very attractive, or you're something of an ugly person (personality) you shouldn't be happy with that and learn to love yourself. You should think "I'm weak in these ways and should work to become a better, more attractive person.
Falling into the trap of playing any other kind of game will keep you from growing into developing any kind of more mature relationship. A real relationship is something where you need to be sure of yourself, and willing to open all of yourself to another person. The games that people play trying to find "the key" are little more than a smokescreen that comes from not wanting to face that.
I agree. Playing games is stupid. Trying to say "the right thing" is stupid.
The goal should be on improving your own personality to be a better person and letting that attract other people.
On August 05 2018 04:18 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2018 04:16 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 05 2018 04:00 NewSunshine wrote:On August 05 2018 03:56 ThunderJunk wrote:On August 05 2018 03:34 NewSunshine wrote:
I will add that I do not find the goal to be to date as many people as possible. I don't think having 20 past relationships that all failed is something to be proud of or brag about. Anything I say on the subject is predicated on the fact that the person seeking advice is looking for something stable, something genuine, and hopefully long-term, but most good advice applies to casual dating as well.
I don't think a successful dating life consists of finding that "something" that the most people find attractive, I consider it to consist of being yourself and loving yourself, and dating someone as a means of sharing who you are and what you do with them.
If you're casually looking for something not terribly serious, you should expect it to be a numbers game, but falling into the trap of playing any other kind of game will keep you from growing into developing any kind of more mature relationship. A real relationship is something where you need to be sure of yourself, and willing to open all of yourself to another person. The games that people play trying to find "the key" are little more than a smokescreen that comes from not wanting to face that. I don't think it's fair to say a relationship "failed" just because it didn't last forever. Sometimes you have what someone needs, and vice versa, and that's good for a while, but not forever. So you go your separate ways when it stops being good. Is that a failure? A ridiculous assumption. Perhaps end is a better word than fail, not every relationship ends for bad reasons. My point stands nonetheless. If you go through a large number of relationships that don't last, it's probably to do with not knowing what you want.
On August 05 2018 03:56 ThunderJunk wrote:On August 05 2018 03:34 NewSunshine wrote:
I will add that I do not find the goal to be to date as many people as possible. I don't think having 20 past relationships that all failed is something to be proud of or brag about. Anything I say on the subject is predicated on the fact that the person seeking advice is looking for something stable, something genuine, and hopefully long-term, but most good advice applies to casual dating as well.
I don't think a successful dating life consists of finding that "something" that the most people find attractive, I consider it to consist of being yourself and loving yourself, and dating someone as a means of sharing who you are and what you do with them.
If you're casually looking for something not terribly serious, you should expect it to be a numbers game, but falling into the trap of playing any other kind of game will keep you from growing into developing any kind of more mature relationship. A real relationship is something where you need to be sure of yourself, and willing to open all of yourself to another person. The games that people play trying to find "the key" are little more than a smokescreen that comes from not wanting to face that. Why is a purely monogamous relationship that lasts a long time more "mature". The relationship itself could mature, but it could also get stale, or rot, or any other word that has to do with the passage of time that doesn't paint long term monogamous relationships in a positive light. You need to admit a bias. I don't necessarily define a mature relationship as long term monogamy. Most of the time it takes that form, but not always. I define mature as something with two or more people who know what everyone involved wants, and are able to be honest and respectful about it. I'm not here to bicker about the problems people encounter in long term relationships. But spoilers, when you spend a significant part of your life with someone, there will always be difficulties and problems. It's how you face them that marks you a mature partner. It's not something that should be shamed or frowned upon either. I absolutely don't intend to do that. Everyone has to figure that out at some point. I only take issue with people that treat raw # of past relationships as an accomplishment.
Also agree. Having partners for the sake of having a bigger # is ridiculous, and probably serves only to validate ones ego.
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I've never found the argument of "what if who you really are is unattractive?" to hold water. To begin with, it's a circular and abstract argument that produces nothing useful. Obviously, if you're just an awful person, very few people will be attracted to you. That doesn't detract at all from the notion that honesty, and being in tune with yourself, are things people value highly. If you don't have that, you're going to have a very hard time finding a fulfilling relationship.
I also don't find the 0-10 attractiveness scale to be anything but crude objectification. It does nothing to explain why someone finds a person attractive, and often doesn't address anything but physical appearances. It's a flat number that holds almost no meaning.
I agree with your statement though. The goal is always about improving yourself, and trying to share that person with other people.
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On August 05 2018 03:49 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2018 03:36 GoTuNk! wrote:On August 05 2018 03:17 Artisreal wrote:
If you try to game the system when dating, do not be surprised when nothing long term develops.
To love means to be vulnerable, to open oneself to the other. If you're too afraid of getting hurt and want to exclude the possibility of your partner cheating on you beforehand, you're in for a rough ride finding a partner. I don't understand what point you are trying to make. The point is that dating is a simple thing, that folks in this thread try to make more complicated than it is. Trying to find possible reasons for trends in divorce rates, reasons why sexual interest allegedly drops to 0 after marriage, or why internet dating makes women not want to date a man that's good for them, or why women are genetically predisposed to be the reason passion in a relationship drops off, et cetera, et cetera. It's all pretty much bullshit. It's looking for reasons why you shouldn't have to try to be a decent person, reasons to blame people for just not seeing how amazing you are. Dating is about finding someone that you find interesting, and wanting to share yourself with them. That requires that both people involved see things in the other that they like, and that goes way beyond physical attributes. The rest is just looking for excuses.
You put it into words way better than I could have managed, thanks.
Something I'd like to add is that this wasn't meant to sound /be condescending.
I've fucked up plenty times and through my own misdeeds I learned of the power of forgiveness. And that there's a big difference in being forgiven and forgiving oneself. Which helped me very very very much in dealing with difficulties we've had in the past years.
You learn by your mistakes. So go make some. Don't plan out the perfect strategy or rationalise how women supposedly want you to be. If you don't want to be that, don't, if you do, go be it. Just imagine if you put up a façade of somebody you want to display, you have to keep that façade that isn't you.this might actually help you achieve being how you want to be but can also backfire heavily because you're permanently not yourself.
If Sex is fucking important to you, this should probably be discussed at some point in your relationships. Mono or poly whatever suits your boat, I won't be judging that. Ever. Where I see lines crossed is when we're interpreting too much in numbers or take reddit posts as a representative example of reality - mind you that the regular posters here are from at least three different continents - and conflate what we think might be good for others with their actual needs. And if we see differences in those needs of men and women how the other person has to change in order to satisfy my need. That's fucking bollocks.
What I know from some women that Sex is not a means to achieve a relaxed state of mind but rather that state being a prerequisite. Other friends are more relaxed in that department and can do it twice a day.
With children - usually connected with marriage, a little less in different parts of the world than in others - you'll have less time for your own privacy which coincides with less opportunities for Sex, not to speak of being way too tired after long days.
If the occasional wank is out of the picture for you and if you can't respect your partners needs in the intimacy department (see paragraph 2),you'd better find someone else or think hard about what kind of partner arrangement might work for you. I know enough about poly to know that this world be too difficult for me, friends of mine do just fine with it. In that context you should note that opinions change with time. Maybe it's OK for 6 months or 4 years, but everything is fluid and can change with experience. And replacing experience theory might just not cut it with this one.
We've focused a lot on how to get as many matches as possible, I think? Which is fair in and of itself. I've totally missed the connection between online dating is bad for men and women alike because women choose badly and whatever came before.
For this thread to continue some posters should discuss less what others, especially women, should do, but rather think harder, even out loud in here, about what they actually want to achieve. Casual sex and lots of it or a partner for life.
While not entirely unrelated, a friend found a partner via OKCUPID, I, personally, consider these two as rather far apart. Albeit being out of the dating game for quite a while.
Tldr:focus on what you want from a relationship and act accordingly. Don't blame others for your difficulties.
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On August 05 2018 06:20 NewSunshine wrote:
I've never found the argument of "what if who you really are is unattractive?" to hold water. To begin with, it's a circular and abstract argument that produces nothing useful. Obviously, if you're just an awful person, very few people will be attracted to you. That doesn't detract at all from the notion that honesty, and being in tune with yourself, are things people value highly. If you don't have that, you're going to have a very hard time finding a fulfilling relationship.
The idea here is that many, many people struggle with dating and attracting women and/or finding fufilling relationships. The largest group of men most vocally complaining are those that have real trouble finding and even getting into a relationship women. If that describes someone it means there one of two things:
1) Not putting themselves out there and having opportunities to meet women
2) Not attractive
If you go out, have a social life, use dating websites/apps, etc. then you're exposing yourself to tons of women. If none of these women want to date you, then it stands to reason something about you (personality + appearance + looks + other factors) is unattractive. If you totally own that version of you and love it, you might be okay with it, but you've still got the problem of not finding women.
That tells me something about your personality/appearance must change, and is what I mean by personality being unattractive. There are guys out there owning who they are and being happy with it but still struggling mightily with women.
I also don't find the 0-10 attractiveness scale to be anything but crude objectification. It does nothing to explain why someone finds a person attractive, and often doesn't address anything but physical appearances. It's a flat number that holds almost no meaning.
I would say it ONLY address physical appearance, and that is the sole purpose of it. Looks, especially facial attractiveness, is decently objective as I already said. Nobody will find Brad Pitt ugly or even average looking. Everyone knows he is a good looking guy. Other aspects of personality though just don't work on any scale, because it varies tremendously. One guy might find a shy, introverted girl to be VERY sexy, while another is completely turned off. Certain traits are generally attractive to most people, and others generally unattractive; but the variety in personality preferences is huge, whereas in looks preference it's quite small.
To this end, a number scale is used purely to describe physical attractiveness. That's the only meaning it holds. It's a way of quantifying physical attractiveness when we want to discuss it. For example, in online dating, especially tinder, attractiveness is quite important, and it's useful to have a way of quantify how attractive people are.
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On August 05 2018 05:23 L_Master wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 05 2018 05:16 Uldridge wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2018 01:12 L_Master wrote:
No, I was arguing that "nice guys" (which really is a bad term) with a solid life and genuinely good personality, if a bit low in things like confidence, masculinity, assertiveness, etc., are generally able to find relationships with women; however those relationships tend to involve far less attraction and sexual interest. I do genuinely believe that guys in a relationship like this are also much more likely to be cheated on.
For some men, this might be great. Personally, for me, I couldn't do it. For the same reason I could never be interested in a hooker/escort. The thought of having sex with or being in a relationship with someone who wasn't attracted to me is very much a turn off.
I might be in the minority though, because I feel like most guys I know would stick their dick in basically anything. So my question then becomes if you think that nice guys are being denied, aka, women are not making the right choice regarding certain men. Is women cheating on nice guys a problem regarding women or me. & so I thought your post implied nice guys finish last and you didn't like it. My bad. I don't think it's a question of right or wrong choice. Only the woman can decide if she has made a bad choice. Suggesting that women are making a right or wrong choice by picking a certain guy would be me imposing my value system onto them. On August 05 2018 04:44 Shalashaska_123 wrote:
Hi, L_Master.
Could I ask what it is about marriage that you find extremely appealing? The idea of meeting someone I care about so deeply I want to give myself to them for the rest of my life. Also, the idea of building a life together with someone you love.
Then what is your value system and when do you impose it on a potential partner?
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EPT
