EPTDating: How's your luck? - Page 928
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We are extremely close to shutting down this thread for the same reasons the PUA thread was shut down. While some of the time this thread contains actual discussion with people asking help and people giving nice advice, it often gets derailed by rubbish that should not be here. The moderation team will be trying to steer this thread in a different direction from now on. Posts of the following nature are banned: 1) ANYTHING regarding PUA. If your post contains the words 'alpha' or 'beta' or anything of that sort please don't hit post. 2) Stupid brags. You can tell us about your nice success stories with someone, but posts such as 'lol 50 Tinder matches' are a no-no. 3) Any misogynistic bullshit, including discussion about rape culture. 4) One night stands and random sex. These are basically brags that invariably devolve into gender role discussions and misogynistic comments. Last chance, guys. This thread is for dating advice and sharing dating stories. While gender roles, sociocultural norms, and our biological imperative to reproduce are all tangentially related, these subjects are not the main purpose of the thread. Please AVOID these discussions. If you want to discuss them at length, go to PMs or start a blog. If you disagree with someone's ideologies, state that you disagree with them and why they won't work from a dating standpoint and move on. We will not tolerate any lengthy derailments that aren't directly about dating. | ||
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B.I.G.
3251 Posts
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waffelz
Germany711 Posts
On April 25 2017 16:10 B.I.G. wrote: No I think emphasizing it's about men for a good reason. Although I strongly believe both men and women can and should do whatever they want I also strongly believe they (usually) have different fortitudes. An example would be that women generally are much better at dealing with emotions in a healthy way while men are much better at dealing with issues in a rational way. And waffelz when referring to keeping your back straight the point wasn't to "not harass her" but rather not acting like a needy little idiot when your girl gives you shit for whatever reason. Not all advice needs to reinvent the wheel to be applicable because maybe some people forget or don't know about the basics. Still seems pretty obvious to me, if applied in a correct manner. I don't say all of PUA is shit, but to me enough of PUA is shit that I seem it adequat to make the generalization. I have the strong believe that everything usefull found in stuff that marketet as PUA / targeted at PUA-audience can easily be found elsewhere without all the other horribly wrong stuff attached to it (it may also come with wrong stuff attached to it, but it tends to be wrong in a way that didn't repell me as much as PUA). And most of the people who promote PUA stuff often blindly parrot their half-wisdom, just like their masters jump to completely incorrect conclusions and urgh. I should stop right here, let’s just say PUA and their minions usually trigger me in multiple ways with only very few exceptions ( Like LemOn, who promoted some PUA stuff in here a while back. Even though I disagreed quite a bit, for the most part it wasn't on a factual level and didn't make my eye twitch) On that note maybe you can share what's bothering you (sorry if I missed it) because it seems like most of your posts in this thread display frustration. Maybe we can help. My last few posts where just responses to topics that bother me in a way where I find it important to speak out. Like (in my opinion) generally morally condemnable behaviour, selfishness, dishonesty, lack of respect etc. . In terms of dating I am not really in a position to share anything at the moment since unfortunately it is simply not happening and I am currently in the process of accepting that this most likely won't change for some time. So pretty much a roadblock for this thread and not much you can do. Unless you are single and I my overly positive posting made you interested  EDIT: left the tab open without posting, therefore a bit late response. @LemOn: Yeah but that is the stuff you usually find with more reasonable sources that focus on social interaction with mutual benefit. I guess I am to big on mutual constructive behaviour and benefits. I admit that I am not really an expert on the "new" school you are mentioning, I agree that now there are more reasonable and less manipulative/deceptive tendencies and maybe, just maybe a lot of normal social stuff by now gets rebranded of PUA to make more money... but as long as it isn't a big enough majority, I am not ready to let go of my aversion. As I said, I don't discard everything that gets propagated by PUA, but I reject propably anything that comes from PUA itself. EDIT2: @B.I.G.: you can't deny that there is a ton of PUA stuff that is really repelling and it has grown a community that has a majority that is just as repelling, while also being a great recruiting ground for cancerous shit like "men going their own way"(which also doesnt get everythign wrong, but at the same time gets more then enough wrong in a way that justify to stay away from their circlejerk) | ||
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LemOn
United Kingdom8629 Posts
typical PUA with routines and lines is a thing of the past and random mailing lists  The whole honesty, polarizing and also masculinity is the mainstream now I don't care if anything's bullshit, a single guy's experience re-branded facts from other sciences Or actually research backed date. Whatever makes you think and evaluate your ways is definitely worth the time as it makes you think about your routines and habits. It's like therapy or a psychologist as a couple I told my girlfriend I have no doubt in my mind when I'm married I want to do it even if nothing seems wrong - getting that outside perspective is really important. We really disagree on this one though, I think most in eastern Europe see therapy as something that carries a stygma | ||
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waffelz
Germany711 Posts
On April 25 2017 19:14 LemOn wrote: Oh it is a large majority in the dating advice industry actually typical PUA with routines and lines is a thing of the past and random mailing lists The whole honesty, polarizing and also masculinity is the mainstream now We could get into a whole discussion about the last sentence since there are a lot of problems with that stuff as well, but I would rather not hijack the thread and I am sure a lot of it would stem from differences in values and believes between the two of us. I strongly disagree that all/most of the stuff I highly reject is gone. The lying etc. part was just the easy examples that you can bring up easily since they are almost impossible to defend, there is much more stuff that is either ‘factually’ (‘’ because we are talking psychology/sociology where it is often difficult to come up with undeniable facts, but rather “everything reasonable points towards X”), but this is hard to prove or discuss without having any real benefit. And I would like to repeat that you are one of the few positive examples. I also pretty sure it is a result of you being more experienced and selective regarding the PUA stuff. For some reason "dating advice industry" made me shiver as well but I will go so far to admit that PUA just managed to put me off in a way that might have left its mark. EDIT: thank you for proving my point LemOn :D. Maybe we can come to a conclusion using really broad generalization. In general, PUA has a goal which is its main focus and it uses social understanding etc. to reach that, with varying degree of integrity. Social workshops or therapy has the goal to teach you this understanding, which prevents the introduction of questionable methods to reach your goal. In your given example, you then use this understanding to help both of you to reach a goal. Like PUA teaches you how to make a women/men perceive you as attractive. The stuff I am okay with (which includes therapy/counselling) teaches you understanding and being understood. To me there is a big difference between the two, both can be abused but only the first one promotes a mindset where it can be actually encouraged. The latter one always includes the other side of the interaction and simply feels more pure. You don’t want to learn about picking up women, you want to learn about social interaction. What you described to me doesn’t really seem to fit the PUA-description. The only thing I don’t really understand is what changes between marriages and simply being together, why does outside perspective only gets relevant after marriage/therapy is only needed after marriage?(poor phrasing, replace "relevant" with something better) Or did you mean married in the sense of “at that point we spent enough time together so a check-up seems reasonable”? Otherwise it seems good advice to me, even though I wouldn’t be sure if therapy isn’t a bit overkill. | ||
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farvacola
United States18857 Posts
Again, to a board full of nerds who are prone to thinking that people can be interacted with pursuant to a build order, PUA and its related concepts are absolute poison that will only lead nerds away from addressing the real issues. | ||
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bloodwhore~
1010 Posts
On April 25 2017 19:14 LemOn wrote:It's like therapy or a psychologist as a couple I told my girlfriend I have no doubt in my mind when I'm married I want to do it even if nothing seems wrong - getting that outside perspective is really important. We really disagree on this one though, I think most in eastern Europe see therapy as something that carries a stygma That's pretty interesting. Never heard of anyone of free will when everything is alright. I think most of western europe carries the stigma too. Nobody I know have gone to therapy or anything of the sort. Feels like it is very normal in USA though. | ||
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Koivusto
Finland542 Posts
This thread needs new stories :/ I want to keep lurking. | ||
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WarSame
Canada1950 Posts
On April 25 2017 19:41 farvacola wrote: It doesn't matter what one calls it, the "dating advice industry" is a crock of bullshit designed to make money on the backs of mostly immature men who will do anything they can to avoid having to come to terms with the connection between dating problems and having a shitty personality. Your intuition is on point, waffelz, and lemon has previously made it clear that he is playing a no true scotsman game with PUA stuff in that he defends obscure, potentially less offensive brands of PUA as though he were vindicating the practice at large. Again, to a board full of nerds who are prone to thinking that people can be interacted with pursuant to a build order, PUA and its related concepts are absolute poison that will only lead nerds away from addressing the real issues. There are good branches or brands of PUA, though. Most of the community is pretty trash, but you can find good corners. /r/seduction was a really good resource for me when I was younger, as long as I took it with a large grain of salt. The real challenge, of course, is to be attractive. There's a bunch of vectors to achieve that, from physical to social to mental(with subparts if you like). PUA is trying to focus on the social vector. Some branches go skeevy and try to tell you the best ways to trick or coerce girls into sleeping with you. Some provide a good covering of the fundamentals of the social part of dating(which a lot of people never really learn). They give you general advice, examples, and specific advice for your problems. When I was younger I was terrible socially. I had plenty of other things going for me so if I had been able to socialize then I would have been much more successful. Eventually I stumbled across How to Win Friends and Influence People, which taught me how to socialize, and /r/seduction which taught me how to socialize in a dating context. Of course, once I achieved what I wanted(becoming comfortable socializing with women) I stopped paying attention. The subreddit has probably gone to shit, especially with the weird Red Pill trend Reddit has taken. You recognize what PUA targets - socially or sexually insecure young men. You shouldn't simply shame such people. If it's the only source of advice on dating available they will follow it. If you don't want them to follow it you need to make them aware of some better source. Ridiculing solves nothing, and drives them more towards Red Pill. | ||
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Dark_Chill
Canada3353 Posts
PUA starts from there, and looks to people who have succeeded (often times they look at the people who have sex with multiple partners because that's a kind of power fantasy) and say "emulate those guys". Then bits and pieces are lost in translation and "be confident and carry yourself well" turns into "be kinda dickish". If people want good dating advice, the problem is that it's not something you can just read in a tome. It takes practice, and people who aren't good at socialising need to practice socialising, not read about how some dude banging several chicks (or dudes) is super bold and cool. Join a club, take up a hobby that has a nice social scene on it, try and make random chit chat to people, etc. | ||
dravernor
Netherlands6192 Posts
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
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GoTuNk!
Chile4591 Posts
It is a skill that most people develop naturally to certain degrees, like speaking, but some people develop some terrible habits. There are lots of people with speaking disabilites that need help to function. Or if you want to be really picky, it's like learning a sport. A combination of skill, instructions and practice. That something can be learned is not the same as farva's caricature that it has to be a "build order". | ||
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Dark_Chill
Canada3353 Posts
On April 27 2017 02:35 dravernor wrote: Also, be yourself. If you're introverted, let your date know that you're not very social etc. Be upfront and honest about yourself. It stops you having to act as someone you're not, and it stops you're new partner from having a nasty surprise in the future. Introverts aren't completely bad at talking. Hell, stuff like D&D used to be played mostly by introverts, and it can require a pretty high amount of social skills (properly creating interactions between multiple characters that aren't really how you are in real life). People really into the more nerdy hobbies (like card games, MMOs and the like) could be really social when they were "in their element". Was on break from work before, so I'll expand previously and also agree with GoTuNk! Dating is a skill because being attractive is a skill. Some people are born more physically appealing, some people are born more sociable than others. That doesn't mean you can't be successful, it just means that there needs to be time and effort put in to things. How you dress can make you look way better. If you don't know what to buy or if you don't have enough money to buy new clothes or your parents do your shopping, try and learn as much as possible from everywhere you can online and just dress well with what you have. Clean your shoes every now and then. Maybe look online at hairstyles and find one you like. There are few people who want to date someone who doesn't ever talk or people who can only talk about one thing. Practicing socializing can be the same thing as expanding the things that you like/are good at until you have at least a few things you're able to talk about. Listen to other people and learn from them so that you can talk to them about things they like. This isn't even just about dating. Attractive people have a few benefits in society, because communication is pretty important in a lot of jobs and in the acquisition of jobs. Knowing more people that you talk to every now and then also can introduce you to new hobbies/activities you might like that you might not have gotten to on your own. | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On April 27 2017 03:53 GoTuNk! wrote: I think the biggest takeaway from the "PUA community" is that dating, and being attractive, is to a point a Skill. It is a skill that most people develop naturally to certain degrees, like speaking, but some people develop some terrible habits. There are lots of people with speaking disabilites that need help to function. Or if you want to be really picky, it's like learning a sport. A combination of skill, instructions and practice. That something can be learned is not the same as farva's caricature that it has to be a "build order". just because farva says its not a "build order" doesnt mean that he's saying it's not a skill. "build orders" without solid mechanics keep you in potato league. | ||
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B.I.G.
3251 Posts
Things to do before asking guidance: -Shower at least once a day -Ditch the hobo haircut -Wear clothes that are clean and compliment your no doubt dreamy eyes. -Actually talk to the gender of interest. | ||
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LemOn
United Kingdom8629 Posts
On April 26 2017 02:49 Koivusto wrote: Therapy can be extremely useful even if you wouldn't have any urgent issues at hand. Everyone of us have some very deep built up patterns of behavior. And a big chunk of serious relationships goes to shit because lack of communication. This thread needs new stories :/ I want to keep lurking. Yeah I mean in whatever you do where you want to be great you'll always have a coach, study industry materials etc. etc. So you get better. Even the top performers in the world have advisers and coaches that bring outside perspective. Just look at Dota and the rise of coaches - I'd say majority of them are worse players and worse strategically in the game as they'd play themselves otherwise but still bring great benefit and became the norm to bring in views outside of the team's bubble. And relationships are a skill really it's a shame many people don't see that and don't invest any time and just wing it. And in long term relationships you can have the perfect communication but sooner or later you develop your own "meta" of what's normal in the couple and it becomes your understanding of reality that often can be improved for the benefit of the relationship, but there's no way you can see it without outside perspective. | ||
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farvacola
United States18857 Posts
On April 27 2017 13:24 B.I.G. wrote: Aren't we a bit past the "Don't smell like shit and shave your neckbeard" advice? It gets repeated every few pages and I think anyone who has ever touched a girl's tits agrees. Maybe we should make it part of the sticky on top. Something like: Things to do before asking guidance: -Shower at least once a day -Ditch the hobo haircut -Wear clothes that are clean and compliment your no doubt dreamy eyes. -Actually talk to the gender of interest. So on one hand, these are pretty obvious tips and should increase one's chances of not offending every female they come upon. On the other, and I've said this here before, some of the most adept ladies men I've come to know have also been some of the dirtiest, weirdest, stupidest motherfuckers I've met. That's why a lot of these "dating is a skill and you need to level up your skills" tips fail to appropriately capture what exactly goes into attracting a mate. Similarly, there are plenty of clean upstanding nerds who follow advice like the kind previously mentioned and yet are still as far away from getting close to another person as ever. All that said, the "actually talk to them" piece stands no matter what and is usually at the center of most nerd dating problems, so that much I unequivocally endorse | ||
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LemOn
United Kingdom8629 Posts
How clean, rich or stylish you are just means your attraction with the person can be a bit lower so you go through less people on average. On the other hand changing your personality, not being honest and not immediately repelling women not compatible with your views, personality traits, dislikes etc. just leads to major waste of time or worse - ending up with the wrong person | ||
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dravernor
Netherlands6192 Posts
On April 27 2017 07:41 Dark_Chill wrote: Introverts aren't completely bad at talking. Hell, stuff like D&D used to be played mostly by introverts, and it can require a pretty high amount of social skills (properly creating interactions between multiple characters that aren't really how you are in real life). People really into the more nerdy hobbies (like card games, MMOs and the like) could be really social when they were "in their element". Was on break from work before, so I'll expand previously and also agree with GoTuNk! Dating is a skill because being attractive is a skill. Some people are born more physically appealing, some people are born more sociable than others. That doesn't mean you can't be successful, it just means that there needs to be time and effort put in to things. How you dress can make you look way better. If you don't know what to buy or if you don't have enough money to buy new clothes or your parents do your shopping, try and learn as much as possible from everywhere you can online and just dress well with what you have. Clean your shoes every now and then. Maybe look online at hairstyles and find one you like. There are few people who want to date someone who doesn't ever talk or people who can only talk about one thing. Practicing socializing can be the same thing as expanding the things that you like/are good at until you have at least a few things you're able to talk about. Listen to other people and learn from them so that you can talk to them about things they like. This isn't even just about dating. Attractive people have a few benefits in society, because communication is pretty important in a lot of jobs and in the acquisition of jobs. Knowing more people that you talk to every now and then also can introduce you to new hobbies/activities you might like that you might not have gotten to on your own. Oh I didn't mean to single out introverted people. It was just an example - like if an introvert went out to a party with the purpose of meeting someone, and that person then expected you to attend parties several times a week etc. It just helps to be straight up about yourself so that people don't have false expectations of you. | ||
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Emnjay808
United States10665 Posts
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