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We are extremely close to shutting down this thread for the same reasons the PUA thread was shut down. While some of the time this thread contains actual discussion with people asking help and people giving nice advice, it often gets derailed by rubbish that should not be here. The moderation team will be trying to steer this thread in a different direction from now on.
Posts of the following nature are banned:
1) ANYTHING regarding PUA. If your post contains the words 'alpha' or 'beta' or anything of that sort please don't hit post.
2) Stupid brags. You can tell us about your nice success stories with someone, but posts such as 'lol 50 Tinder matches' are a no-no.
3) Any misogynistic bullshit, including discussion about rape culture.
4) One night stands and random sex. These are basically brags that invariably devolve into gender role discussions and misogynistic comments.
Last chance, guys. This thread is for dating advice and sharing dating stories. While gender roles, sociocultural norms, and our biological imperative to reproduce are all tangentially related, these subjects are not the main purpose of the thread. Please AVOID these discussions. If you want to discuss them at length, go to PMs or start a blog. If you disagree with someone's ideologies, state that you disagree with them and why they won't work from a dating standpoint and move on. We will not tolerate any lengthy derailments that aren't directly about dating. |
United Kingdom36156 Posts
On August 13 2013 23:40 QuanticHawk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 14:30 Orcasgt24 wrote:
So I'm curious what TL's views are on open relationships. I really like this girl and she really likes me. We share similar views in our approach to sex. She's cheated on every BF and her ex husband, hence the past tenses. Now I am no player or anything, very little skill in womanizing but feel that sex does not equal love and that its possible to have sex for fun. And sex is such a broad thing. One person cannot possibly offer all their is sexually. She's very clearly going to benefit from this more then I will but the option for me exists to sleep with another woman(she offered to help me get better at picking chicks up too).
We had a chat about that a few days back and laid some ground rules like always wear protection, regular STD tests at the clinic. (before she used an alias since they allow that. I told her she should be using her real name and info. Medical personal deserve to know if you have something when they work on you so they may take the steps necessary to protect themselves. Got no resistance surprisingly) ALWAYS tell the other person before hand if possible (spur of the moment at a bar can happen/phones die and via text is ok because the questions from the other party may be weird) or after if you couldn't and basically just use common sense.
What are your guys views? Can open relationships work? They can, but as weird as it sounds, you almost need more trust than a normal relationship since there's a much larger chance of stds, and you have to worry about stuff like her calling before hand if possible (this seems like a really odd line in the sand to draw, and I'm sure if she cheated on her ex husband, this will be broken before long) However, I think an open relationship works if you're both the type of people who do not believe in monogamy. tbh, you sound like you like her, wanna keep on boning her and would like to do a traditional monogamous relationship, but you know she's not trustworthy in a relationship, so you did this. I don't know why you didn't just stick to casual dating with her instead.
My relationship works because we both have 100% trust in each other. Pretty sure it would break down pretty fast otherwise.
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On August 13 2013 23:54 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 23:40 QuanticHawk wrote:On August 13 2013 14:30 Orcasgt24 wrote:
So I'm curious what TL's views are on open relationships. I really like this girl and she really likes me. We share similar views in our approach to sex. She's cheated on every BF and her ex husband, hence the past tenses. Now I am no player or anything, very little skill in womanizing but feel that sex does not equal love and that its possible to have sex for fun. And sex is such a broad thing. One person cannot possibly offer all their is sexually. She's very clearly going to benefit from this more then I will but the option for me exists to sleep with another woman(she offered to help me get better at picking chicks up too).
We had a chat about that a few days back and laid some ground rules like always wear protection, regular STD tests at the clinic. (before she used an alias since they allow that. I told her she should be using her real name and info. Medical personal deserve to know if you have something when they work on you so they may take the steps necessary to protect themselves. Got no resistance surprisingly) ALWAYS tell the other person before hand if possible (spur of the moment at a bar can happen/phones die and via text is ok because the questions from the other party may be weird) or after if you couldn't and basically just use common sense.
What are your guys views? Can open relationships work? They can, but as weird as it sounds, you almost need more trust than a normal relationship since there's a much larger chance of stds, and you have to worry about stuff like her calling before hand if possible (this seems like a really odd line in the sand to draw, and I'm sure if she cheated on her ex husband, this will be broken before long) However, I think an open relationship works if you're both the type of people who do not believe in monogamy. tbh, you sound like you like her, wanna keep on boning her and would like to do a traditional monogamous relationship, but you know she's not trustworthy in a relationship, so you did this. I don't know why you didn't just stick to casual dating with her instead. My relationship works because we both have 100% trust in each other. Pretty sure it would break down pretty fast otherwise.
I said open relationships probably need more trust because of all the different elements from monagamous ones??
HIs post comes off as doing this because he thinks she's gonna cheat on him otherwise, not because he wants an open relationship, which is silly.
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
Yes, I wasn't disagreeing with you, I was emphasising the point ^_^
I do actually 'believe' in monogamy, but in our case what we have works for various reasons xD
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Ah I gotcha
Yeah and that probably coulda be phrased better. I know people who were in open relationships and were in monogamous ones without cheating supposedly. Do it because you want an open relationship, not because you don't trust the person to stay faithful or your spouse asked you and you don;'t wanna lose them or something would be a bit more accurate
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I wouldn't really consider it any type relationship, since you're starting under the premise of fucking other people. It's more of a booty call than anything...
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
On August 14 2013 00:55 chadissilent wrote:
I wouldn't really consider it any type relationship, since you're starting under the premise of fucking other people. It's more of a booty call than anything...
Sex != relationship
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Sex Doesn't make for a solid relationship, it is caring that does, caring that when they wrong you, you still love them and they feel guilty for it, and apologize, but you'd still love them apology or not- granted they're not a jerk to you
Does luck play in starcraft? Not really. The only time luck is a factor is when you first meet the person, you do not know who you're really going to meet, because we define luck as some unknown factor in our life because we don't full understand how the universe comes together in the grand scheme, that that person you met today, woke up this morning, took a shower (or not), ate food (or skipped their meal) and stopped at some gas station where they had "going to work" on their mind until you said hello, and that you think they look nice.
Luck doesn't really exist in relationships, it's all about how you react and what you cause. Sometimes you cause something good, or react to something bad, or vice versa. So luck isn't really part of it, it's about knowing and caring for another person, which is what dating really is.
The reason i titled this "how is your luck?" is that it's easier to say that than say "Dating, how have you reacted to your own and their mistakes and what did you do about them and what has that lead your current status to be, and what do you plan to do about it?"
I'm not an expert on relationships, but I know a lot about just being psychology, and just being a good person, and not shaking my morals for any reason. For those who are looking for solid dating advise, that is it right there. Be the best person you can and hold yourself to that standard, no matter what.
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On August 13 2013 18:10 Killscreen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 11:36 sunprince wrote:On August 13 2013 08:08 Killscreen wrote:On August 13 2013 08:04 sunprince wrote:On August 13 2013 08:01 Killscreen wrote:On August 13 2013 07:55 sunprince wrote:On August 13 2013 06:29 Killscreen wrote:On August 13 2013 04:22 sunprince wrote:On August 12 2013 19:29 Killscreen wrote:On August 12 2013 08:40 sunprince wrote:
[quote]
Your assumption here is that in any relationship, one partner rises to the level of the other and/or one partner sinks to the level of the other.
You have absolutely no basis for that assumption, aside from possibly too many romance movies. There is also the assumption that having a new partner lined up before ending it with the previous one makes you a shitty person. It doesn't. It stings. Trust me I know it does, but it doesn't make her a bad person you should harbor resentment for. It makes you a shitty person if the other person is unaware that this is acceptable behavior in your relationship. And while this varies across cultures, I would argue that this is typically not considered acceptable in modern first-world societies unless specified beforehand. I don't care what any particular society expects. If following society's rules is the primary concern then fine, but realize this: Every society has these constructs that protect men from jealousy. The problem is that they are all misogynistic in nature, designed to control women with guilt under the guise of moral and religion, so that they may not wield the power of sexual jealousy over men. I refuse to obey such archaic, unnatural and evil constructs. They became obsolete with the condom. Jealousy is an illusion.It is simply your brain giving you a chemical signal, so that you focus your time and resources on your own offspring. Not having this response increases the risk of raising another male's offspring and thus not efficiently reproducing yourself. It is a chemical response to an ancient problem we no longer face, and yet it so severely limits our life, if we let it. Learning to handle jealousy makes you a better man and gives you a more fulfilling love life with less drama. No jealousy means no shame, guilt or inhibition. Conquering jealousy is no easy task, but then most worthwhile tasks in life aren't. Without jealousy, you are sad to see the girl go, but glad she has found someone who makes her happy, and glad you got to fuck her while she looked around. Without jealousy she can even be honest about it, and you too can see other people. It's just better that way. No anger, resentment or drama. Just love. While I generally take a similar viewpoint on jealousy, there is a difference between an agreed-upon open relationship and an open relationship that only one partner is aware of. So its the fact that our hypothetical girl waited too long to break up. The break up was happening anyway, so I don't really see much difference. How does it hurt the person being left more? Simply because a violation of an existing contract does not end up hurting anyone doesn't change the fact that the contract was violated. You're just rationalizing away shitty behavior by examining the consequences, but that's not how ethical systems work. If something is dishonest behavior, then it is dishonest regardless of whether anyone was hurt by it. We have philosophical differences regarding right and wrong then. I'm more concerned with consequences than technicalities. Your philosophical views have no relevance to the original discussion, which is whether or not cheating on your partner makes you a shitty person. It is readily apparent that according to most people's definition of "shitty person", the answer is yes. This is why I brought up society a few posts back; to indicate to you that you are playing semantics and changing definitions from their common usage in order to suit your argument. If your argument is that you don't consider cheating on your partner to be shitty, then that would be reasonable. However, this doesn't change the fact that most people would consider this to be shitty behavior, so my original "assumption" that cheating on your partner makes you a shitty person (by most people's standards, a clarification wouldn't need to be said if not for nitpickers like you) stands. It doesn't get decided by a vote. The fact that most people would agree with something doesn't make it true. Most people in your society believe evolution is bullshit, so that must be true too then. And lets be clear; we are discussing whether or not flirting with someone other than your partner is cheating, not whether or not it's OK to sleep with other people behind their back. Our hypothetical situation is a women leaves a man for someone else. My view is that this in itself doesn't make her a bad person, and I am not convinced she is a bad person because she violated some unwritten contract dictated by a misogynistic and outdated model of human interaction.
I was going to try and explain why I think your line of reasoning is poor, but I think I'll let you explain it yourself
On August 08 2013 21:23 Killscreen wrote:
I would be really pissed off if I found out a girl I just slept with was a biological male. Most guys would feel the same way. Wether or not I am entiteled to be pissed is beside the point; the girl knew I would be pissed ( or she would tell me ) and did it anyway. The rationale being that her need for sex outweighs my need to not have sex with men, a need I dont have to defend to anyone.
It's selfish and wrong.
On August 08 2013 21:23 Killscreen wrote:
I would be really pissed off if I found out a girl I was dating left me for someone else. Most guys would feel the same way. Wether or not I am entiteled to be pissed is beside the point; the girl knew I would be pissed ( or she would have broken up with be earlier ) and did it anyway. The rationale being that her need for a better guy outweighs my need to date a girl, a need I don't have to defend to anyone.
It's selfish and wrong.
Morality doesn't really get decided by vote but as you pointed out, usually you can judge how the other person will react and if the girl knew you would be pissed and still led you on, that's not really a great way to treat others. It's tricky to decide whether something is right or wrong (evolution, not telling someone you are trans, leaving a man for another one) but "Wether or not I am entiteled to be pissed is beside the point; the girl knew I would be pissed" and that's what makes it shitty
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On August 14 2013 00:55 chadissilent wrote:
I wouldn't really consider it any type relationship, since you're starting under the premise of fucking other people. It's more of a booty call than anything...
I mean, I myself find the concept foreign because I'd never do it with someone I actually cared about, but that's kinda the whole point of them?? Not everyone is down with monogamy. Which is fine, as long as you are honest about what you want and don't move the goalposts when they suit you like killscreen does
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On August 14 2013 02:37 QuanticHawk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2013 00:55 chadissilent wrote:
I wouldn't really consider it any type relationship, since you're starting under the premise of fucking other people. It's more of a booty call than anything... I mean, I myself find the concept foreign because I'd never do it with someone I actually cared about, but that's kinda the whole point of them?? Not everyone is down with monogamy. Which is fine, as long as you are honest about what you want and don't move the goalposts when they suit you like killscreen does
The problem is that the guy facing this dilemma seems to be doing this because he has no other choice, not because he wants to. I've had that with girls too, they've fallen for me and I just slam their brains out and go home in the morning. I've always referred to them as booty calls. Do I care for them? Sure, more than a stranger -- but they always knew that I didn't want to be exclusive with them and the only way I'd stick around was for sex. Of course I had my "main" girl but there were always others -- and we were on a don't ask/don't tell basis.
That's sounds a lot like what the girl is doing to this dude.
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Oh ok yeah I misunderstood you. I thought you were talking about open relationships in general. I agree, this sounds like a case of she proposed it, I'm thinking about it because I enjoy her/sex and don't want it to end and not someone who is down with open relationships
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on the topic of open relationships I was once on a very weird receiving end of one
This girl and this dude had an open relationship and were married and apparently they both knew we were seeing each other except me. She was basically just a booty call for me, so it was strange that she did not tell me about this part of her life when nobody was getting hurt in the process.
I'm still not sure what to make of that whole deal to this day.
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it's pretty fucked up. that's one of those things you toss out there, even if it is just a booty call
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On August 13 2013 18:10 Killscreen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 11:36 sunprince wrote:On August 13 2013 08:08 Killscreen wrote:On August 13 2013 08:04 sunprince wrote:On August 13 2013 08:01 Killscreen wrote:On August 13 2013 07:55 sunprince wrote:On August 13 2013 06:29 Killscreen wrote:On August 13 2013 04:22 sunprince wrote:On August 12 2013 19:29 Killscreen wrote:On August 12 2013 08:40 sunprince wrote:
[quote]
Your assumption here is that in any relationship, one partner rises to the level of the other and/or one partner sinks to the level of the other.
You have absolutely no basis for that assumption, aside from possibly too many romance movies. There is also the assumption that having a new partner lined up before ending it with the previous one makes you a shitty person. It doesn't. It stings. Trust me I know it does, but it doesn't make her a bad person you should harbor resentment for. It makes you a shitty person if the other person is unaware that this is acceptable behavior in your relationship. And while this varies across cultures, I would argue that this is typically not considered acceptable in modern first-world societies unless specified beforehand. I don't care what any particular society expects. If following society's rules is the primary concern then fine, but realize this: Every society has these constructs that protect men from jealousy. The problem is that they are all misogynistic in nature, designed to control women with guilt under the guise of moral and religion, so that they may not wield the power of sexual jealousy over men. I refuse to obey such archaic, unnatural and evil constructs. They became obsolete with the condom. Jealousy is an illusion.It is simply your brain giving you a chemical signal, so that you focus your time and resources on your own offspring. Not having this response increases the risk of raising another male's offspring and thus not efficiently reproducing yourself. It is a chemical response to an ancient problem we no longer face, and yet it so severely limits our life, if we let it. Learning to handle jealousy makes you a better man and gives you a more fulfilling love life with less drama. No jealousy means no shame, guilt or inhibition. Conquering jealousy is no easy task, but then most worthwhile tasks in life aren't. Without jealousy, you are sad to see the girl go, but glad she has found someone who makes her happy, and glad you got to fuck her while she looked around. Without jealousy she can even be honest about it, and you too can see other people. It's just better that way. No anger, resentment or drama. Just love. While I generally take a similar viewpoint on jealousy, there is a difference between an agreed-upon open relationship and an open relationship that only one partner is aware of. So its the fact that our hypothetical girl waited too long to break up. The break up was happening anyway, so I don't really see much difference. How does it hurt the person being left more? Simply because a violation of an existing contract does not end up hurting anyone doesn't change the fact that the contract was violated. You're just rationalizing away shitty behavior by examining the consequences, but that's not how ethical systems work. If something is dishonest behavior, then it is dishonest regardless of whether anyone was hurt by it. We have philosophical differences regarding right and wrong then. I'm more concerned with consequences than technicalities. Your philosophical views have no relevance to the original discussion, which is whether or not cheating on your partner makes you a shitty person. It is readily apparent that according to most people's definition of "shitty person", the answer is yes. This is why I brought up society a few posts back; to indicate to you that you are playing semantics and changing definitions from their common usage in order to suit your argument. If your argument is that you don't consider cheating on your partner to be shitty, then that would be reasonable. However, this doesn't change the fact that most people would consider this to be shitty behavior, so my original "assumption" that cheating on your partner makes you a shitty person (by most people's standards, a clarification wouldn't need to be said if not for nitpickers like you) stands. It doesn't get decided by a vote. The fact that most people would agree with something doesn't make it true. Most people in your society believe evolution is bullshit, so that must be true too then.
My point, which you have either missed or deliberately ignored, is that you are using a spurious definition of the word "shitty".
On August 13 2013 18:10 Killscreen wrote:
And lets be clear; we are discussing whether or not flirting with someone other than your partner is cheating, not whether or not it's OK to sleep with other people behind their back. Our hypothetical situation is a women leaves a man for someone else. My view is that this in itself doesn't make her a bad person, and I am not convinced she is a bad person because she violated some unwritten contract dictated by a misogynistic and outdated model of human interaction.
It would be considered "shitty" behavior if a man left his girlfriend for someone else too. Sex, and therefore, misogyny, has no relevance to this discussion.
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On August 13 2013 18:44 Henk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 18:32 arb wrote:
Okay so I got this chicks number at this diner place the other night, I texted her about idk 20 hours later or something and got no response(at this point I assumed a fake number, but she said she had no boyfriend wasn't seeing anyone etc)
Went back in tonight and she was my waitress again, she said sorry if id sent her anything cuz her phone was gonna be off for a couple days till she got paid again, I was like okay, would you like mine so you could text or call me or whatever, and shes like okay sure, so then allt hat happened and I came home
what to do in this situation? pretty sure the first night she gave me my food for free, and made a witty joke + a nice facial expression as I was paying, usually when I get a girls number ive atleast met her before or something like that, but this is kinda new to me.
how are you supposed to like.. talk and stuff in situations like this?? Just wait it out, see if she texts/calls you. Don't text her again before she texts you, or you'll come across as desperate.
Yeah, I'd wait it out too. The one thing I can think of is that I'd suggest to you, that in the situation you were just in, you just kinda take the situation as it comes. If she gives you a free meal, it's a fucking golden ticket to willy wonka's chocolate factory lol.
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On August 13 2013 14:30 Orcasgt24 wrote:
So I'm curious what TL's views are on open relationships. I really like this girl and she really likes me. We share similar views in our approach to sex. She's cheated on every BF and her ex husband, hence the past tenses. Now I am no player or anything, very little skill in womanizing but feel that sex does not equal love and that its possible to have sex for fun. And sex is such a broad thing. One person cannot possibly offer all their is sexually. She's very clearly going to benefit from this more then I will but the option for me exists to sleep with another woman(she offered to help me get better at picking chicks up too).
We had a chat about that a few days back and laid some ground rules like always wear protection, regular STD tests at the clinic. (before she used an alias since they allow that. I told her she should be using her real name and info. Medical personal deserve to know if you have something when they work on you so they may take the steps necessary to protect themselves. Got no resistance surprisingly) ALWAYS tell the other person before hand if possible (spur of the moment at a bar can happen/phones die and via text is ok because the questions from the other party may be weird) or after if you couldn't and basically just use common sense.
What are your guys views? Can open relationships work?
As a few others mentioned, it sounds like you're not doing it because you're interested in an open relationship, but because you like this girl enough to try and convince yourself you don't care if she sleeps with other guys. Chances are if you don't truly believe in and agree with open relationships, you will feel the more shitty about the whole thing the more you care about this girl. Also what you say about this girl cheating on all her boyfriends and her husband in the past makes it sound like she's very selfish and irresponsible. Based on what you wrote, I'd say this looks like a recipe for disaster really, unless you're okay with considering her basically an fbb and don't actually care too much about her in terms of a 'relationship' or whatever.
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On August 14 2013 07:34 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 14:30 Orcasgt24 wrote:
So I'm curious what TL's views are on open relationships. I really like this girl and she really likes me. We share similar views in our approach to sex. She's cheated on every BF and her ex husband, hence the past tenses. Now I am no player or anything, very little skill in womanizing but feel that sex does not equal love and that its possible to have sex for fun. And sex is such a broad thing. One person cannot possibly offer all their is sexually. She's very clearly going to benefit from this more then I will but the option for me exists to sleep with another woman(she offered to help me get better at picking chicks up too).
We had a chat about that a few days back and laid some ground rules like always wear protection, regular STD tests at the clinic. (before she used an alias since they allow that. I told her she should be using her real name and info. Medical personal deserve to know if you have something when they work on you so they may take the steps necessary to protect themselves. Got no resistance surprisingly) ALWAYS tell the other person before hand if possible (spur of the moment at a bar can happen/phones die and via text is ok because the questions from the other party may be weird) or after if you couldn't and basically just use common sense.
What are your guys views? Can open relationships work? As a few others mentioned, it sounds like you're not doing it because you're interested in an open relationship, but because you like this girl enough to try and convince yourself you don't care if she sleeps with other guys. Chances are if you don't truly believe in and agree with open relationships, you will feel the more shitty about the whole thing the more you care about this girl. Also what you say about this girl cheating on all her boyfriends and her husband in the past makes it sound like she's very selfish and irresponsible. Based on what you wrote, I'd say this looks like a recipe for disaster really, unless you're okay with considering her basically an fbb and don't actually care too much about her in terms of a 'relationship' or whatever.
I'd say this is pretty spot on. It seems that you met a girl you find attractive, one who has serious issues keeping a man, you want a piece of that, and you are trying to rationalize it so that it will work. The way you've put it, it seems this isn't the real you dude.
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On August 14 2013 09:30 docvoc wrote:
I'd say this is pretty spot on. It seems that you met a girl you find attractive, one who has serious issues keeping a man, you want a piece of that, and you are trying to rationalize it so that it will work. The way you've put it, it seems this isn't the real you dude.
Even as someone actually on an open relationship, I would say docvoc hit the right spot with you.
You seems to want it just to have a way to hit this girl, more than being something you want to live with. Open relationships aren't about accepting someone will cheat on you, either it will not work, or it's closer to fuck buddies than anything else.
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On August 14 2013 06:42 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 18:10 Killscreen wrote:On August 13 2013 11:36 sunprince wrote:On August 13 2013 08:08 Killscreen wrote:On August 13 2013 08:04 sunprince wrote:On August 13 2013 08:01 Killscreen wrote:On August 13 2013 07:55 sunprince wrote:On August 13 2013 06:29 Killscreen wrote:On August 13 2013 04:22 sunprince wrote:On August 12 2013 19:29 Killscreen wrote:
[quote]
There is also the assumption that having a new partner lined up before ending it with the previous one makes you a shitty person. It doesn't.
It stings. Trust me I know it does, but it doesn't make her a bad person you should harbor resentment for. It makes you a shitty person if the other person is unaware that this is acceptable behavior in your relationship. And while this varies across cultures, I would argue that this is typically not considered acceptable in modern first-world societies unless specified beforehand. I don't care what any particular society expects. If following society's rules is the primary concern then fine, but realize this: Every society has these constructs that protect men from jealousy. The problem is that they are all misogynistic in nature, designed to control women with guilt under the guise of moral and religion, so that they may not wield the power of sexual jealousy over men. I refuse to obey such archaic, unnatural and evil constructs. They became obsolete with the condom. Jealousy is an illusion.It is simply your brain giving you a chemical signal, so that you focus your time and resources on your own offspring. Not having this response increases the risk of raising another male's offspring and thus not efficiently reproducing yourself. It is a chemical response to an ancient problem we no longer face, and yet it so severely limits our life, if we let it. Learning to handle jealousy makes you a better man and gives you a more fulfilling love life with less drama. No jealousy means no shame, guilt or inhibition. Conquering jealousy is no easy task, but then most worthwhile tasks in life aren't. Without jealousy, you are sad to see the girl go, but glad she has found someone who makes her happy, and glad you got to fuck her while she looked around. Without jealousy she can even be honest about it, and you too can see other people. It's just better that way. No anger, resentment or drama. Just love. While I generally take a similar viewpoint on jealousy, there is a difference between an agreed-upon open relationship and an open relationship that only one partner is aware of. So its the fact that our hypothetical girl waited too long to break up. The break up was happening anyway, so I don't really see much difference. How does it hurt the person being left more? Simply because a violation of an existing contract does not end up hurting anyone doesn't change the fact that the contract was violated. You're just rationalizing away shitty behavior by examining the consequences, but that's not how ethical systems work. If something is dishonest behavior, then it is dishonest regardless of whether anyone was hurt by it. We have philosophical differences regarding right and wrong then. I'm more concerned with consequences than technicalities. Your philosophical views have no relevance to the original discussion, which is whether or not cheating on your partner makes you a shitty person. It is readily apparent that according to most people's definition of "shitty person", the answer is yes. This is why I brought up society a few posts back; to indicate to you that you are playing semantics and changing definitions from their common usage in order to suit your argument. If your argument is that you don't consider cheating on your partner to be shitty, then that would be reasonable. However, this doesn't change the fact that most people would consider this to be shitty behavior, so my original "assumption" that cheating on your partner makes you a shitty person (by most people's standards, a clarification wouldn't need to be said if not for nitpickers like you) stands. It doesn't get decided by a vote. The fact that most people would agree with something doesn't make it true. Most people in your society believe evolution is bullshit, so that must be true too then. My point, which you have either missed or deliberately ignored, is that you are using a spurious definition of the word "shitty". Show nested quote +On August 13 2013 18:10 Killscreen wrote:
And lets be clear; we are discussing whether or not flirting with someone other than your partner is cheating, not whether or not it's OK to sleep with other people behind their back. Our hypothetical situation is a women leaves a man for someone else. My view is that this in itself doesn't make her a bad person, and I am not convinced she is a bad person because she violated some unwritten contract dictated by a misogynistic and outdated model of human interaction. It would be considered "shitty" behavior if a man left his girlfriend for someone else too. Sex, and therefore, misogyny, has no relevance to this discussion.
You really wanna argue over the semantics of "shitty"? Let's just use "wrong", or "unethical", and this entire debate boils down to the semantics of those words; is it, or is it not "shitty".
Let's examine a few hypotheticals:
A girl is in the midst of her final exams, and her boyfriend decides its time to end it. He decides to wait till she is done, so that she can focus on her exams without distractions. He flirts with some girls, get's some phone numbers and intends to pursue them, but does not have sex with them. Is he an asshole?
A woman is thinking of leaving her boyfriend. She is not sure, but she is thinking about it. During this time she develops feelings for someone in her life. Could be co-worker, friend of a friend, personal trainer or whatever. She did not actively pursue other people, but it happened. Finally, she decides it's time to end it. Is she a bad person?
A woman is with a man just because he is rich, or because she needs a visa, or whatever. She keeps stringing him along, but is actually actively pursuing other options. Is she a bad person?
I would say no, no and yes. My point being that it isn't black and white. You cant make a set of rules that can be applied to every single situation to determine right or wrong. It can be shitty, and it can be OK. It's entirely contextual, and that's my point. Leaving someone for someone else in and of itself is not wrong.
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EPT
