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We are extremely close to shutting down this thread for the same reasons the PUA thread was shut down. While some of the time this thread contains actual discussion with people asking help and people giving nice advice, it often gets derailed by rubbish that should not be here. The moderation team will be trying to steer this thread in a different direction from now on.
Posts of the following nature are banned:
1) ANYTHING regarding PUA. If your post contains the words 'alpha' or 'beta' or anything of that sort please don't hit post.
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4) One night stands and random sex. These are basically brags that invariably devolve into gender role discussions and misogynistic comments.
Last chance, guys. This thread is for dating advice and sharing dating stories. While gender roles, sociocultural norms, and our biological imperative to reproduce are all tangentially related, these subjects are not the main purpose of the thread. Please AVOID these discussions. If you want to discuss them at length, go to PMs or start a blog. If you disagree with someone's ideologies, state that you disagree with them and why they won't work from a dating standpoint and move on. We will not tolerate any lengthy derailments that aren't directly about dating. |
On October 27 2018 03:32 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Meeting as a group is a double-edged sword. As comfortable as it might initially be to have your friends' presence, you will have to deal with her friends' judgment whenever you want to do anything remotely sexual. At the very least, have vague ideas of places you two can go once the main event ends. Don't hinder yourself by being too passive in the hope something will magically click at the hot pot.
On October 27 2018 03:01 mahrgell wrote:
You should probably look to initiate events for 2, instead of always making a party with everyone out of it.
Right now you are seemingly maneuvering yourself into the "another friend who is great to have around for parties" corner.
And there is nothing wrong about asking for something for just you 2. The answer will also be pretty telling about her understanding of the current situation.
The issue was that the hot pot event was already planned and she may have overheard about it last Saturday at karaoke. I figured it'd be weird to leave them out and not invite them so I'm taking that gamble.
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On October 27 2018 02:42 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2018 15:37 LemOn wrote:On October 26 2018 08:07 geokilla wrote:On October 26 2018 06:09 LemOn wrote:On October 25 2018 22:19 LegalLord wrote:On October 25 2018 22:11 geokilla wrote:On October 25 2018 17:43 LemOn wrote:
There's no relationship to begin with, you're just acquaintances that barely know each other
You can't know if you want her yet because you don't really know her
And you're being really needy/stalkerish and will lose this one sooner or later, if you're lucky it might take 3+months,
But do what you do, I think any experience is good after being hung-up on one ex Is it? My friends said it was really cute that I tried to bring her food because she was sick. Especially since she is into me. Yah I'm dialing it back but I still need to ask what kind of food they want for the party lol. It's just that in my experience with past women, they lost interest in me because our texting conversation was bland. Been reading on the Internet on how to spice things up but they feel very click bait. You don't want to go overboard, but to some extent it doesn't really matter. Even some things that are genuinely somewhat stalkerish/clingy are very readily forgiven when there's mutual attraction. If you're generally a normal person and not predisposed to go way overboard there, then worry less about doing things "right" because that ends up just being a whole lot of mental overhead for nothing. Yeah you'll be burning through the attraction pretty fast acting like Geokilla's wishy washy acting combined with borderline stalkerish behaviour, it it's really high though you might hit the 3 month mark ish. And if she's not centered/confident herself we might be talking a couple years  I mean maybe I'm wrong, maybe you bring food to all your friends you have known for a week or so, male or female when sick and it's just who you are, that'd be a different thing I suppose, and you should definitely stick to that. Well we've known each other for almost 2 months now. Just that we only saw each other 3 times in those two months. But the mutual attraction is there so I wanted to surprise her. I get what you mean though. I just get friend zoned easy lol. But let's see how Saturday goes I guess. Invited her and her friends to have hot pot together with my friends and I. They all met each other last Saturday at karaoke. Simultaneously, she invited me to meet up with her friends but they didn't set a date on when they're going KTV yet. Hope it won't be the last I hear from her cus it's been radio silent today. You're friendzoning yourself as we speak my friend And I know you mentioned you and your ex never had actual sex, I express myself that way strongly and would drive me nuts really, you just know she's doing it now eventually with someone else. I know other guys are different though/ And you're creating an environment where you're heading that way also now Are these things you'd mind terribly? Not at all. I'd love to fuck her but I just thought that at 4AM in a bathroom with her two friends waiting outside would be weird as hell.
Jumping in late but yea if you're doing this stuff and you haven't had sex...you're walking hard to the friendzone area.
You say you want to have sex with her, but not at 4am in a bathroom. I get that. So...invite her over to your place. You've been out together you said three times? Bring her back to your place. Have sex. Job done, and moves much more away from this friend phase.
The kind of stuff you're doing is what I think of as good gestures from someone you deeply care about that you've been with for years. For a girl you've seen three times...it's not a good idea. It gets "forgiven" if she likes you, but it's definitely going to eat away at the attraction she has for you. The fact that you say you get friendzoned alot...this is why. Set a flirtatious, sexual (not horny) frame right from the start. You're setting somewhere between a really good friends/deeply affectionate boyfriend frame. That's too strong early on. It's going to cause many girls to lose interest in you, and the other girls are going to immediately see you as BF material, which means you get into all kinds of weird thoughts like "well I need to go on at least 3 dates before I sleep with this guy"...both outcomes most guys don't want.
Until you're in a relationship and have had sex a few times, keep it playful; flirty, maybe a bit irrelevant. Minimal texting. Normally I'd say one date and then have her come to your place, but you've already had that so bring her to your place.
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On October 25 2018 22:11 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2018 17:43 LemOn wrote:
There's no relationship to begin with, you're just acquaintances that barely know each other
You can't know if you want her yet because you don't really know her
And you're being really needy/stalkerish and will lose this one sooner or later, if you're lucky it might take 3+months,
But do what you do, I think any experience is good after being hung-up on one ex Is it? My friends said it was really cute that I tried to bring her food because she was sick. Especially since she is into me. Yah I'm dialing it back but I still need to ask what kind of food they want for the party lol. It's just that in my experience with past women, they lost interest in me because our texting conversation was bland. Been reading on the Internet on how to spice things up but they feel very click bait.
First...don't text too much. Even if you're a text genius it's still usually not good. Text isn't real. Meeting up, having dates, eventually having sex; that's real. Texting should be a little flirtatious, but it can also be very much to the point. When I'm dealing with dates, let's say online, it's 3 or 4 messages before I pitch a date. Then I communicate maybe once before the date, unless it's more than 3 days out, then I have maybe a 10 lines of fun banter halfway to the date (referencing the date in some way as a reminder). Usually a couple lines of conversation and a "are we still on for tomorrow.". I will usually confirm the date a few hours before as well.
That usually totals 10-20 responses of conversation on my end. Total. From when I first messaged her to our date. Usually wait to the next day to respond if I had a good time, again just 1-3 responses, hopefully reference humor from the date, and then a "let's hang out at my place" type of message.
How much you text after you're in a relationship and have had sex with a girl a few times depends on what sort of relationship dynamic you want to set up.
Main thing here is you're losing women because you're coming on too strong and not being flirtatious and sexual (again, sexual. NOT horny) enough. You really can't go wrong with a short date that opens with fun conversation, transitions to you guys talking to each other and learning about each other (i.e. where you can ask some screening questions to get some sense of who she is and if you're interested), transitioning into a little talk about dating life, past experiences dating, funny dating stores, etc.; and then finally transitioning into some talk about sex. That sets a confident, clear, and most importantly sexual, but not playerish, frame. Second date at your place or hers and have sex.
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I somehow have the feeling, that geokillas 'goals' concerning women are very different from yours, L_Master.
And spreading this "you must have sex at Xth date or you failed" myth like it would be an universal truth is not really helpful.
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I think it is important to go on a date early on. Too much conversation without a flirtatious feel, or in a setting not really conducive to getting together makes the other party lose interest in terms of romance. You're a friend instead of potential partner.
None of this really matters if the other party definitely likes you and wants to get together with you. People will put up with a quite a bit if they like you.
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^ mahrgell is right. Not everyone is you, L_Master. The most important part of advice is being right. The second most important part is tailoring it to the person receiving it. I also think that the overly sexual attitude can lead to more pressure on men, leading to more sexual harassment and sexual assault.
@geokilla, I generally agree with them that you've been putting it on a bit hard. However, women do also like displays of affection. You just need to scale that with the commitment of the relationship. My friend got his GF flowers on their third date which I thought was a few dates too early. My GF thought it was a great idea, and his GF really appreciated it. But that was the third date and just flowers.
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United States15275 Posts
On October 27 2018 03:38 geokilla wrote:
The issue was that the hot pot event was already planned and she may have overheard about it last Saturday at karaoke. I figured it'd be weird to leave them out and not invite them so I'm taking that gamble.
You can spontaneously suggest hanging out after the hot pot. It doesn't have to be an aggressive lead-in to sex or making out. Just a means of gauging the intensity and type of interest. Among her friends, any attraction will be colored by the energy of the crowd and her self-consciousness.
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You should print out a sexual consent contract and ask her if she's interested in signing it.
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What a complicated situation. I hope it turns out for you my dude!
On another note: girl at my workplace setting seems like she’s interested in me. She keeps looking over at me and walks in front of me quite frequently. Typically I’d have the confidence to make the first move and properly introduce myself and at least get on a “first names” basis with her, but I’m always sweaty and feel so icky. I know I need to make a move soon otherwise she’ll interpret my avoidance as being uninterested in her.
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On October 27 2018 05:19 mahrgell wrote:
And spreading this "you must have sex at Xth date or you failed" myth like it would be an universal truth is not really helpful.
Wat? I'm not trying to be an asshole here, but in absolutely NO way am I saying anything close to that. I'm genuinely not sure how I miscommunicated so poorly for you to have that impression.
What am I saying: Unless you don't want to have sex, there is no reason not to. If you have reasons and intentionally want to wait longer than that to have sex, that's totally fine and not a bad thing. If you're sitting around thinking "I'm into this girl and I'd like to have sex with here" and you've been on multiple dates...then it's less desirable because you want to have sex with her and aren't. I honestly can't see how/why you would disagree with that, but if you do please tell me.
I will say, as personal opinion than advice, that I think once you've decided you're attracted enough and interested in the girl, you should have sex. I find no good comes of waiting. The girls I kinda, sorta, almost dated but eventually either committed to someone else, or friendzoned me, were all girls that I waited 3 or more dates to have sex with. I think it's an important and useful tool for establishing a relationship.
Many of the questions in here are less about relationship management and more about how do I get into a relationship. Sex plays a big role in that. Most people tend not to think of themselves in relationships unless they are having sex (or at least being somewhat sexual) with a member of the sex they are interested in. If you're hanging out with a girl all the time, doing things together, etc. and aren't having sex or at least being somewhat sexual, there is a strong chance she is thinking of you more as a friend, or thinking that you see her as a friend. Neither are good if you want a relationship. You need a relationship frame for that. What separates a relationship from a deep, powerful friendship? Sexual attraction and sexual activity. All the way from holding hands and kissing to sex. That's what people in relationships do, and people in friendships do not.
The fact that getting into relationships is by far the most talking about aspect in this thread, as opposed to relationship management, means I am often talking about sex...which is a little annoying, because the frequency of which I feel the need to talk about makes me feel like all I talk about here is sex...which gives a "Wow this guy is really obsessed with sex vibe". That's quite far from reality. I think it's important, especially in establishing relationships, but it's only one component of a great relationships. Sex is absolutely not an end all be all in a dating relationship.
I somehow have the feeling, that geokillas 'goals' concerning women are very different from yours, L_Master.
I get the impression he is looking for a relationship, particularly a serious one. That's also what I'm looking for, even if I'm looking for a non monogamous version of that relationship. Perhaps I misunderstood what geokilla is looking for?
On October 27 2018 07:02 WarSame wrote:
^ mahrgell is right. Not everyone is you, L_Master. The most important part of advice is being right. The second most important part is tailoring it to the person receiving it. I also think that the overly sexual attitude can lead to more pressure on men, leading to more sexual harassment and sexual assault.
The attitude is not overtly sexual. That's what I think of when I think of "horny". Horny is where you're being weird with touch, staring at her weird, or anything else that's giving off a strong "I really want to fuck you vibe". There is a massive difference between being confident about sex, and talking about sex, than there is with being horny (which is mega creep territory unless she wants to have sex right then). Talking to someone about their dating life is never going to lead to sexual assault.
I guess I could be more clear though about what I mean when I say be sexual. I get the impression several people have read that and think playerish, horny, and/or very touchy feely. None of those are particularly great, and if you're not very, very careful and can be creepy/weird super easily. Obviously, we don't want that.
Sexual to me means something more like comfortable being a little flirtatious, not afraid to hint at things or tease a girl, and confident talking about women, dating, and sex.
To be honest, if you're doing things and wondering "could I maybe be moving towards sexual harassment", then I'd bet 100% that you're NOT being sexual. You're being horny. If you're ever thinking "could this be looked at as sexual assault" then you just need to STOP. You're wayyyy over the line if you're ever having that thought. That to me basically means you're physically touching a women, probably in a non-platonic way/place, and don't have absolutely certainty or outright consent she wants you to do so. Major no in my book.
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On October 27 2018 09:09 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2018 03:38 geokilla wrote:
The issue was that the hot pot event was already planned and she may have overheard about it last Saturday at karaoke. I figured it'd be weird to leave them out and not invite them so I'm taking that gamble. You can spontaneously suggest hanging out after the hot pot. It doesn't have to be an aggressive lead-in to sex or making out. Just a means of gauging the intensity and type of interest. Among her friends, any attraction will be colored by the energy of the crowd and her self-consciousness.
This is basically what I was going to suggest. Just pitch her coming back to your place after the party. Her response will tell you quite a bit about where you stand, not to mention if I understand you correctly, you are interested and would like to have sex with her.
If you aren't ready to have sex with her yet, then obviously pitching such as an idea wouldn't make sense.
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Thank you guys for all your suggestions and advice. I'm going to try and follow them and see how it plays out.
Update: Hot pot was a success yesterday, except that she didn't show last minute because she's really sick. I hope she's not lying, as I know she's been sick all week. She did say she'll make it up to me the next time we see each other so I guess I'll just keep the texting to a minimal for the next few days, and then try and schedule a date with her. She told my friend she's not coming last minute too. Of course she could be lying because of my possible screw up from early last week but I'm going to try and stay positive.
On October 27 2018 15:19 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2018 09:09 CosmicSpiral wrote:On October 27 2018 03:38 geokilla wrote:
The issue was that the hot pot event was already planned and she may have overheard about it last Saturday at karaoke. I figured it'd be weird to leave them out and not invite them so I'm taking that gamble. You can spontaneously suggest hanging out after the hot pot. It doesn't have to be an aggressive lead-in to sex or making out. Just a means of gauging the intensity and type of interest. Among her friends, any attraction will be colored by the energy of the crowd and her self-consciousness. This is basically what I was going to suggest. Just pitch her coming back to your place after the party. Her response will tell you quite a bit about where you stand, not to mention if I understand you correctly, you are interested and would like to have sex with her. If you aren't ready to have sex with her yet, then obviously pitching such as an idea wouldn't make sense.
Serious question. As a Chinese Canadian who grew up with conservative, typical Chinese parents, how do you bring a girl home? Lol. My mom freaked out when I was together with my ex up in my room watching TV with the doors OPEN. She's learned her lesson now as she understands she was one of the reasons why we broke up but it doesn't change the fact she's conservative and shit happens when you do something "young adult" like such as going out at midnight for a drink with friends.
Now you're making me think I should have just let things go and not stopped her last Saturday night... FML.
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Australia8614 Posts
take l_masters advice with a grain of salt.
what works for him doesnt work for everyone and not everyone wants to deal with women the way he does.
hes from a white background, youre not. there will be obvious cultural differences that his advice doesnt take into account.
the short answer from a fellow asian is, you dont bring them home when your parents are home lol. its pretty 50/50 as some parents are more open about it, but if yours arent then you just dont bring them over unless its not for sex and youre serious enough about the girl and would be ok with introducing her to your parents.
go to her place, and if thats off the table then you have to get creative a bit.
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Also, my impression is that l_master doesn't live with his parents, and not do most other people here. I know I moved out when I was 19, and many students in the Netherlands do. Before then, you kinda just make do. And my parents aren't conservative. But it's a long time ago, so I don't really remember. I know it was awkward :p
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On October 29 2018 01:56 evilfatsh1t wrote:
the short answer from a fellow asian is, you dont bring them home when youre parents are home lol. its pretty 50/50 as some parents are more open about it, but if yours arent then you just dont bring them over unless its not for sex and youre serious enough about the girl and would be ok with introducing her to your parents.
go to her place, and if thats off the table then you have to get creative a bit.
Yea. I never really brought anyone home when I lived with my parents. I probably could have without them really caring, but...never went there. From a different culture I could see where that would either be insanely awkward or just downright problematic. Definitely a piece of why I moved out.
I agree her place would be the next best option, and if that's not an option that pretty much only leaves getting creative. Lots of possibilities there ranging from very risque to ordinary.
On October 29 2018 01:56 evilfatsh1t wrote:
hes from a white background, youre not. there will be obvious cultural differences that his advice doesnt take into account.
I know you mentioned the parent thing. If you're interested in elaborating on this a little I'd be interested to read your relevant cultural experiences and what differences you have noticed.
On October 29 2018 01:56 evilfatsh1t wrote:
take l_masters advice with a grain of salt.
what works for him doesnt work for everyone and not everyone wants to deal with women the way he does.
Definitely true, especially the open side of things. I think, or at least I'd like to think, I've done an okay job explaining how I'm dating/dealing with women, and if that approach makes sense to someone, I think it's a good approach. If they are reading the way I'm approaching dates and finding that isn't at all how they want to date then I would agree they shouldn't follow me advice.
At the core I guess you could say my approach to the early stages of dating (from never talking them to beginning of relationship) is one that is focused on time efficiency, minimal monetary investment, middle ground between "let's hookup vs I'm ready to be your super serious boyfriend right from the start", and relatively fast sex.
I've mentioned this before, but for geokilla's sake, I'll state it again. My approach to relationships, ignoring the open aspect I'm trying, is that I like to start them fun, flirty, and relatively sexual. I don't come off as a guy obviously looking to hop into a serious relationship from the start. I let that develop over time if I find I like the girl and I continue to see some of the things that are very important to me if I'm going to commit to something (continued low drama, warm/caring personality, interested in thinking about and making relationships work, stability, etc.). I'm of the opinion it's very hard to assess these things from a few dates, and red flags in these areas can take some time to surface, and consequently I don't like jumping into a relationship after a few dates or a month or two goes by.
If someone like geokilla is reading the above and thinking "No way, that's not the frame I want to set or how I want to approach relationships...then as you said I would recommend he not follow my approach.
For the record geokilla, I'm very sold on my approach to the first date. The only reasons I can think of for not using a similar approach is if you know the person and that you'll definitely have fun, in which case if you want to set a stronger relationship vibe a multi hour date doing various activities is great. I'm generally not interested in doing that though with someone I'm not confident I'll have a great time with. If you were looking to set a highly relationship based frame, you would approach the second date and beyond differently, and proceed in a more traditional route with activity dates/dinner/etc. for second date, third date, etc. rather than inviting her over to your place or hers for the second date.
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On October 29 2018 02:30 Acrofales wrote:
Also, my impression is that l_master doesn't live with his parents, and not do most other people here. I know I moved out when I was 19, and many students in the Netherlands do. Before then, you kinda just make do. And my parents aren't conservative. But it's a long time ago, so I don't really remember. I know it was awkward :p
Correct. And haha yea I was too awkward in my younger days to even be able to tolerate the thought of bringing someone over to parents even if they would 95% been okay with it.
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I, for one, think that it's sad that people value sex so much more highly than companionship, teamwork, and higher values. Relationships are about working together for a common good, be it family, hobbies, or business.
Hollywood and popular media make it out to be that sex is the purpose of relationships. It also makes it seem like if you have more sex (often times with more partners), you're more successful. Nothing could be further from the truth.
If you need to have sex with someone to justify spending loving, attentive time with them, then that screams addictive behavior. Orgasms feel awesome, sure, but so does doing coke, smoking weed, and getting blasted at a bar.
If you need sex to justify being with someone, or if not having sex disqualifies you from spending time with them, or giving them special attention, that's totally similar to needing to smoke before going out to have a good time, or needing to drink to make socializing possible.
Too many people want to master the process of sexual seduction, but stop short before mastering their own sexuality.
How many people here have gone a whole year without ejaculating? Some people are successful in it. They made a choice to master their own impulses. I respect them a lot more than people who chase sex for sex's sake.
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On October 29 2018 03:25 ThunderJunk wrote:
I, for one, think that it's sad that people value sex so much more highly than companionship, teamwork, and higher values. Relationships are about working together for a common good, be it family, hobbies, or business.
Hollywood and popular media make it out to be that sex is the purpose of relationships. It also makes it seem like if you have more sex (often times with more partners), you're more successful. Nothing could be further from the truth.
If you need to have sex with someone to justify spending loving, attentive time with them, then that screams addictive behavior. Orgasms feel awesome, sure, but so does doing coke, smoking weed, and getting blasted at a bar.
If you need sex to justify being with someone, or if not having sex disqualifies you from spending time with them, or giving them special attention, that's totally similar to needing to smoke before going out to have a good time, or needing to drink to make socializing possible.
Too many people want to master the process of sexual seduction, but stop short before mastering their own sexuality.
How many people here have gone a whole year without ejaculating? Some people are successful in it. They made a choice to master their own impulses. I respect them a lot more than people who chase sex for sex's sake.
how many people here have mastered themselves mind and body through a year of solitude spent in the desert w only bread and water? its sad to hear people talk about making money, spending time on pointless games, dissipating themselves in an orgy of postmodern delights. the media and hollywood make career and family success seem like the most important things in this universe. nothing could be farther from the truth. too many people drink the koolaid and neglect their inner spirt without consideration of higher, more godly values. i respect those who master their material urges to gain wisdom and meaning on a higher plane.
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United States15275 Posts
How many people avoid spouting condescending gibberish masquerading as wisdom? Take your concern trolling somewhere else.
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On October 29 2018 03:25 ThunderJunk wrote:
I, for one, think that it's sad that people value sex so much more highly than companionship, teamwork, and higher values. Relationships are about working together for a common good, be it family, hobbies, or business.
Hollywood and popular media make it out to be that sex is the purpose of relationships. It also makes it seem like if you have more sex (often times with more partners), you're more successful. Nothing could be further from the truth.
If you need to have sex with someone to justify spending loving, attentive time with them, then that screams addictive behavior. Orgasms feel awesome, sure, but so does doing coke, smoking weed, and getting blasted at a bar.
If you need sex to justify being with someone, or if not having sex disqualifies you from spending time with them, or giving them special attention, that's totally similar to needing to smoke before going out to have a good time, or needing to drink to make socializing possible.
Too many people want to master the process of sexual seduction, but stop short before mastering their own sexuality.
How many people here have gone a whole year without ejaculating? Some people are successful in it. They made a choice to master their own impulses. I respect them a lot more than people who chase sex for sex's sake.
I have best friends with whom I have no sexual relations. I hang out with them, I talk with them and my life would definitely feel less complete without them. But a relationship with a partner I am sexually attracted to should probably have sex in it. That's the only factor separating someone from lover and best friend.
Not caring about sexual activities doesn't make you a better or more impressive person. Having a low or high libido also doesn't make you a better or more impressive person. Some people like sex more than others, and that's not a strike against them.
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EPT
