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Country bashing will result in bans from 00:20 KST onward. |
On October 10 2011 04:35 SojuTerran wrote:
To those who say that this is an isolated case, and is not important whether or not Americans did it because anyone can rape.
A lesson in psychology/sociology:
1. American guy enters Korean progaming BW team - chance
Koreans winning 100% of BW WCG since time immemorial - not chance
2. Black guy winning a surfing contest - chance
99% of NBA players in history being black - definitely not chance
3. Non-American guy winning governorship in America - chance
All but one of US Presidents being black - most definitely not chance.
By chance here I mean an event that can be isolated and is statistically improbable. Not chance are events that happen by design, with the conditions actually structured in certain ways to make things happen as they do.
Going back to the US Soldiers. Certainly there is a chance that it could have been done by a French soldier, or a Taliban rebel. But these abuses by the US Army is not isolated. They are not something you can say that happens without being related to the conditions that envelope them. Throughout history, US soldiers have conducted abuses (rape mostly, but there is also torture, but that's another story) in all their military bases outside USA. It happened/happens in KOrea, In Japan, in Vietnam, in Philipines, etc. Is this a rare coincidence? Without overwhelming statistics, it's easy to think so. But reality tells us otherwise. As Milkis said, the worse thing is that these US soldiers has and will always get away with it with a mere slap in the wrist (being decommissioned or reassigned) because part of the bilateral agreement is the jurisdiction to these soldiers conducts, which is US, and not host country. Does this therefore tolerate, even encourage a certain degree of disregard for the law among US military in foreign countries? The record state for themselves.
But having said this, it is still in the level of investigation, and the soldiers are still "suspect" and not criminals, so we should treat this situation as such.
So far the only people who have shown any statistics have shown the opposite of what you are saying.
You talk about Japan while I already posted a few pages back statistics that show US forces in Okinawa are less likely to commit crime than the general population in that region.
If you think those statistics are wrong or are inadequate then explain or show your own evidence but please stop making stuff up. You haven't provided any evidence in any of your posts. I realize you hate the United States and I feel sorry for you, but it is no excuse to be a troll.
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On October 10 2011 03:55 Persev wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 00:49 blackone wrote:On October 10 2011 00:18 Muki wrote:On October 09 2011 23:08 weekendracer wrote:On October 09 2011 05:58 Fus wrote:
So, this is US military. US should just shut down 7/8 of their military and do something useful with the money, like making free healthcare for everyone. Why does America think they have to control the world? Why does the US stick it's nose everywhere? Because the rest of the world wants us there and we've taken over the role of protector of everyone else. I don't agree with it, but it IS the current situation until it can be altered. Wow that's one of the most ignorant statements I've read lately. The same could be said about Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union during and after WW2 then. Of course the US is no tyrant, no no, hahaha we all know that. In fact, the USA are what saved us (Europe) from Nazi Germany. Disgusting comparison. Actually the Russians (Soviets back then) held the line virtually alone against the Wermacht/ Nazi push before D-Day (US/GBR 2nd front) ). However you could be correct if you are speaking about Western Europe in that USA saved most of Western Europe from becoming part of the Communist block.
You need to check up on your WWII history. The war against the Nazis was faught on 3 fronts. Russia, D-Day, AND Africa. Everyone who says the Russians could have won alone forgets Africa which was led by the US and the UK. In fact, the decisive end of the war in Europe came when Germany ran out of oil.
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do we need so many troops in Korea still? it seems unneeded knowing that every male in korea has been or will be in the army, i don't think we need to be there anymore, i think incidents like this could be avoided.
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On October 10 2011 03:23 semantics wrote:
What about germany XD
Obviously a divided germany after WWII had nothing to do with it...
oh you think it's funny? Let me see... Germany isn't divided anymore since 1990 - for 21 years! Isn't it somehow upsetting how glacially change happens (does it happen)? Why can't those troops go home now? Sometime in the future at least?
Also let me tell you something about nuclear fission. The Germans have become so upset with the risks involved and the waste produced by nuclear power plants, that they have become one of the first countries in the world set a date by which time the last nuclear power plant is switched off. This is after decades of demonstartions and it is a very emotional topic. I have heard from many people (old enough) that to them the most significant world event they experienced was the reactor catastrophe in Tschernobyl (look on a map - that didn't happen far from Germany at all). And now recently Fukushima really tipped the scales...
But i digress. What is this about? It is about political power and the democratic charade that after decades people are now finally sick of.
Before he was inaugurated Barrack Obama held a speech in Germany about living in a world without nuclear weapons.
Our foreign minister announced his resolve to remove the US nuclear weapons (germany has no nuclear weapons) stationed in Germany. He also said how unhappy the Germans are with the current arrangement. Nothing has happened.
Can you understand why people want to crush this rock status-quo preserving condescension? Why can there be no change? Why is it all just show?
It shouldn't surprise you that in such a powder keg of frustration, things that might seems hum-drum to you can ignite the fuse.
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On October 10 2011 05:14 SojuTerran wrote:Start with this. Then look at the official record of US soldiers being reassigned, decommissioned, or held pending in the military court. BlackJack, Id rather have 1 post and be open to reality than have 5000+ posts and your level and quality of argumentation skills.
Yeah, flaming another member is a great way to convince people that your opinion is correct and you have a higher 'level and quality of argumentation skills' than said member.
Why don't you just go play Starcraft for a bit and come back when you have a bit more of a respectable attitude.
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The US could reduce the number of troops in South Korea to 5000 or less and still provide an adequate deterrant to the North. After all the troops are primarily there as a 'tripwire' (you kill US troops then the US is justified in throwing everything at you). South Korea has more than enough back-up manpower due to compulsory military service that 20 000 US soliders would not be missed. It would save US taxpayers a lot of money and reduce these sort of incidents as well.
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On October 10 2011 06:57 jax1492 wrote:
do we need so many troops in Korea still? it seems unneeded knowing that every male in korea has been or will be in the army, i don't think we need to be there anymore, i think incidents like this could be avoided.
The usa will not trust the koreans to watch over the very strategic locations.
South Korea was saved from being taken over by North Korea by the USA(i think they are very ungrateful to be honest)
as far as the military training goes, we are better trained and their are very few military armies trained as well as the USA.
Now you say avoid the incidents? How? Will these two males who you dont even know not rape in America? Will they magically grow morals and not do the exact same thing in their home country?listen to me when i say this, location means nothing when a person commits a crime for they could do it just as easily in America and many other countries.
If you say sure then do you know what type of rape they are being accused of?
Is it violent forceful rape?Did the girls die due to them being so forceful?Was it a form of statutory rape? What if the girls lied about being raped?
we do not have enough details on that but that sums up my answers to your questions
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On October 10 2011 15:25 levarien11111 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 06:57 jax1492 wrote:
do we need so many troops in Korea still? it seems unneeded knowing that every male in korea has been or will be in the army, i don't think we need to be there anymore, i think incidents like this could be avoided. Now you say avoid the incidents? How? Will these two males who you dont even know not rape in America?
I don't like this justification. Rapes are mostly crimes of opportunity. You have American soldiers wandering around in a foreign country knowing that they can get away with almost anything because they're the property of the U.S. government, and guess what, you're giving them an opening. Sure, they might commit a crime in the U.S., but the likelihood that they will commit a crime in a foreign country is magnified.
And LOL at your opinion on being grateful. Typical.
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The problem isn't that Koreans are ungrateful. The problem is that the US doesn't have a foreign policy that is popular outside of the US. Things like the Food Trade Agreement, which Koreans hate (making food cheaper here, and thereby pushing local farmers out of business) are perceived to be due to purely American influences.
I actually have a really hard time figuring out (specifically) why the Koreans have such a big problem with Americans, because there's so much noise, like stupid shit about the FTA. Maybe it's because we laugh at their precious shit like "fan death" or blood type personality voodoo, or maybe it's something more substantial that they really don't like talking about.
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This is news, because Koreans never rape Koreans.....
Oh wait.
Look, they'll get what's coming to them if they're found guilty. Not sure why this is noteworthy news.
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@BluePanther it's a big deal because they're untouchable. The worst that will happen to them, if they are indeed found guilty, is that they'll spend a few (<6) months in army jail (which are much nicer than real jails), then they'll continue working as before... quite possibly still posted in South Korea.
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On October 10 2011 06:57 jax1492 wrote:
do we need so many troops in Korea still? it seems unneeded knowing that every male in korea has been or will be in the army, i don't think we need to be there anymore, i think incidents like this could be avoided.
I'm much more in favor of our guys being on the DMZ as opposed to most of the other places US soldiers are at the moment.
But to the story, these kind of things happen everywhere. It's not something unique to Americans, soldiers, or people visiting Korea. The main thing is making sure the people are punished accordingly and that everything possible is done to prevent this kind of thing from happening again.
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On October 10 2011 20:20 BottleAbuser wrote:
@BluePanther it's a big deal because they're untouchable. The worst that will happen to them, if they are indeed found guilty, is that they'll spend a few (<6) months in army jail (which are much nicer than real jails), then they'll continue working as before... quite possibly still posted in South Korea.
Actually under the UCMJ (military code of conduct) the penalty for rape is severe.
"Rape and Rape of a Child: Dishonorable Discharge, death or confinement for Life, and forfeiture of all pay and allowances."
Lesser charges of Aggravated sexual assault, can also be punished by up to 30 years in prison, which for a member of the military means a trip to Leavenworth.
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What kind of punishment will they receive? Were the girls above or below the age of consent?
What are the rape laws in Korea like? Will they be tried in an American military court or a Korean civilian one? (no clue about the legal system there)
Did they manage to get any forensic evidence?
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@johanngrunt Koreans can't touch 'em. They'll be tried by the US Army. I'd assume that they're 18 or 19, considering that they are referred to as teenagers, but their ages haven't been specified otherwise (really, would you expect any sort of news agency to not shout it from the rooftops if they were younger?).
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On October 10 2011 20:34 johanngrunt wrote:
What kind of punishment will they receive? Were the girls above or below the age of consent?
What are the rape laws in Korea like? Will they be tried in an American military court or a Korean civilian one? (no clue about the legal system there)
Did they manage to get any forensic evidence?
They will be tried in Military Court, so the laws in Korea don't really apply.
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On October 10 2011 20:20 BottleAbuser wrote:
@BluePanther it's a big deal because they're untouchable. The worst that will happen to them, if they are indeed found guilty, is that they'll spend a few (<6) months in army jail (which are much nicer than real jails), then they'll continue working as before... quite possibly still posted in South Korea.
Ummm... no. I was in the U.S. military. They are not untouchable, and they will not enjoy their prison stay by any means.
And this would be news if somehow corruption got them off or something. Americans would be livid. But if he's guilty, he's going to get what's coming to him, trust me.
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More frustrating to Koreans because 99% of people in Korea will never get closure on this case.
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SO THAT'S WHY I HAVE A CURFEW AGAIN.
I'm in the Air Force. I'm not a soldier... we're called airman, but I'm still in the military so you can call me a US troop. This was the first weekend we got put back on curfew and it doesn't even really matter. The curfew is from 3 AM to 5 AM. (two hours that we can't be found roaming Songtan (Osan) or Itaewon. Weekdays the curfew is from 12 to 5 AM, but I work weekdays usually so my ass should be sleeping before 12 anyways.
I thought we were on curfew because I heard numerous army guys were caught with spice (drug) and causing mischief in Itaewon clubs, for example being banned from that UN club.
I swear I feel like it's mainly Army fucking things up for us.
Oh yeah and I've been in Korea since 2007. I've been here when we had a weekend curfew of 1 AM, then 3 AM, then they took the curfew away.... and now it's back. I'm surprised it took so long for them to put us back on curfew.
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EPT
