SEOUL, South Korea (AP) — Two U.S. soldiers have been accused of raping teenage girls in South Korea in separate incidents, prompting U.S. military officials to apologize Saturday as they tried to ease growing public anger.
Army Brig. Gen. David Conboy, who supervises the U.S. garrison in Seoul, issued a statement apologizing for "pain" caused by allegations that a U.S. soldier raped a girl in her rented room in Seoul on Sept. 17. That solider — a private in his early 20s — is being questioned by police but has not been arrested.
Another U.S. private has been arrested on suspicion of raping a teenage girl on Sept. 24 in a city north of Seoul.
The top U.S. diplomat for East Asia, Kurt Campbell, apologized Friday for what he called a "tragic and inexcusable rape that took place about a week ago." It was not clear which of the two incidents he was referring to.
The alleged assaults have prompted small protests near the U.S. Embassy in Seoul, while the Internet has been abuzz with Koreans expressing their anger. On Saturday, a minor labor party called for restricting the movement of American soldiers outside their bases.
The U.S. has 28,500 troops stationed in South Korea, a legacy of the 1950-53 Korean War.
Gen. James Thurman, America's top commander in South Korea, said Friday that he has instated a curfew following "the incidents over the last several months." He did not clarify his comments, but said the curfew would last 30 days. U.S. officials are wary of an anti-American sentiment that could be rekindled in countries where their troops are stationed.
In 2002, the acquittals of two American soldiers whose armored vehicle ran over and killed two South Korean schoolgirls during training prompted nationwide protests against the U.S. military presence in the country.
In 1995, the rape of a 12-year-old Japanese girl by U.S. service members in Okinawa sparked one of the biggest anti-U.S. protests in Japan. About 50,000 U.S. troops are stationed in Japan in a post-World War II security pact.
Whether the allegations are true or not, this certainly puts a dent in Korean-American relations, even amid the free trade talks. I'm curious if any TLers in Korea have been seeing this on the news there. And if so, if there are any anti-American or anti-armed forces sentiments.
Do soldiers rape more often than the average person or is it just that Hess cases are way more publicized? Because I feel like every place soldiers are stationed for extended periods of time, you hear about someone raping a local. And I know that this doesn't apply to every soldier, or even rhe majority of them and there is probably a strong attraction of military careers to people who maybe have social problems.
There have been anti-American sentiments in Korea, always, during the times that I lived in Korea. There was the widely publicized incident long ago where American soldiers killed some students in a traffic accident which generated a lot of public anger, the debacle not too long ago about the importing of American beef (or was it pork?), etc. etc. etc. But in general, there has been anti-American sentiment for as long as I can remember (20 years+), and since these kind of incidents always seem to happen periodically over the years, this kind of sentiment will remain indefinitely until the presence of American military personnel disappears completely (which will not happen as long as North Korea in its present form exists, and as long as America wishes to maintain her influence over the highly strategic Korean peninsula and the Japanese islands).
Whenever I'm out around Seoul in places that US soldiers frequent you can always tell that people just flat out dislike them and shit like this is not going to help.
Completely unforgivable and I hope they get what's coming to them
On October 09 2011 05:29 Emporio wrote: Do soldiers rape more often than the average person or is it just that Hess cases are way more publicized? Because I feel like every place soldiers are stationed for extended periods of time, you hear about someone raping a local. And I know that this doesn't apply to every soldier, or even rhe majority of them and there is probably a strong attraction of military careers to people who maybe have social problems.
I assume it's more publicized - and "worse" too, especially politically. The military represents the country after all.
On October 09 2011 05:30 Bleak wrote: Wow, there are still 50.000 soldiers in Japan. I guess once US enters somewhere they don't ever go back.
Well originally US trops were sent into japan after the war to rebuild and supplement them from creating their own military. ie avoid repeats of WW1, where germany was just left alone to rot and what happens? a dictator arises on the platform of war. Korea is a bit different not necessarily to supplement korean troops but to make sure the mix of CCCP, north korean troops kept to their own side of the 38th after WWII.
Anyone found a more in detail story, the words teenager and ages like 20. The word rape is quite board and i noticed it didn't say forceful rape(which is what most people think), i do not know rape laws of korea etc. Just to make sure it's proper outrage
Woha, suprised at the ammount of soldiers the US got stuffed all over, for over 60 year old conflicts. You'd think they would start to trickle it down abit over such a long time..
All American military should simply leave Korea. That is the best way to appease public anger directed at them, just get out.
Everyone should be responsible for their own safety. I see no reason why the US should have presence in any countries, especially ones where they are not wanted. (And I mean this across the board, to every country and installation and "war".)
Koreans in general don't have very good feelings to American Military personals (most asian countries are the same) Infact if you go to some bars and clubs in Korea, there are signs which has "NO GIs ALLOWED" pasted right in front of it.
On October 09 2011 05:37 MattBarry wrote: It's so stupid for people to get angry about this. 2 Americans does not represent the entire country.
As a Korean American, I try my best to tell my fellow fobfest Korean peers in Korea that generalizing America (actually, every country) is not the best way to do it
Especially a country like America where there are so many different types of personalities
Did you know my gf (who is like 99999% fob Korean) was in shock when she learned how bad the American economy was? Infact I was shocked that most Koreans didn't know how hard america is having it right now
As pointed out in the OP, this has happened in plenty in the past. And no, not just Japan. Philippines, Indonesia, Thailand, Malaysia, and Singapore. Not to mention the countless "visits" on ports by the Navy.
Discuss this on a moral or philosophical basis, but there's really no point including politics in this. South Korea needs America. I don't mean offense here, but I'd rather have one or two rape cases a month than lose America's presence in the region. I know that might have sounded hella wrong, but let's admit it, North Korea would eat all the kimchi in Seoul within a week without America.
On October 09 2011 05:39 AcuWill wrote: All American military should simply leave Korea. That is the best way to appease public anger directed at them, just get out.
Everyone should be responsible for their own safety. I see no reason why the US should have presence in any countries, especially ones where they are not wanted. (And I mean this across the board, to every country and installation and "war".)
As to my previous post, this just adds as to why people shouldn't discuss this on a political level. Especially if they know nothing about the situation in the pacific.
On October 09 2011 05:40 MotorDouglas wrote: this kind of incident is probably 2x worse in korean eyes, cos it's like someone just invading your house and doing whatever they want with you
Except it's not because without US military intervention, North Korea would pounce all over South Korea.
This is extremely tragic and inexcusable, as a US citizen I honestly wouldn't care if the US military just left those two worthless fuckwads to the Korean authorities. Making sure they get the shit kicked out of them in a prison where nobody even speaks their language wouldn't even be justice enough.
As an aside, they will basically let anyone into the US army, having been to a recruiting office, they will let you know beforehand what questions will immediately disqualify you from service if answered not to their liking, so its not too difficult to lie your way into service.
As much as they (we) try, soldiers do not always do what they are told and are not always honorable. Soldiers are humans and like humans a percentage of us will commit a crime. Things like this is bad for PR, but in the end, its human nature and we cannot expect anything less. Cooler heads will prevail among the top brass (US and Korea) and the guilty punished and appropriate/proportionate measures taken.
On October 09 2011 05:40 MrHoon wrote: Koreans in general don't have very good feelings to American Military personals (most asian countries are the same) Infact if you go to some bars and clubs in Korea, there are signs which has "NO GIs ALLOWED" pasted right in front of it.
On October 09 2011 05:37 MattBarry wrote: It's so stupid for people to get angry about this. 2 Americans does not represent the entire country.
As a Korean American, I try my best to tell my fellow fobfest Korean peers in Korea that generalizing America (actually, every country) is not the best way to do it
Especially a country like America where there are so many different types of personalities
Did you know my gf (who is like 99999% fob Korean) was in shock when she learned how bad the American economy was? Infact I was shocked that most Koreans didn't know how hard america is having it right now
Lets be honest, most Koreans don't really know anything outside of Korea.
On October 09 2011 05:41 Vocal wrote: As pointed out in the OP, this has happened in plenty in the past. And no, not just Japan. Philippines, Indonesia, Thailand, Malaysia, and Singapore. Not to mention the countless "visits" on ports by the Navy.
Discuss this on a moral or philosophical basis, but there's really no point including politics in this. South Korea needs America. I don't mean offense here, but I'd rather have one or two rape cases a month than lose America's presence in the region. I know that might have sounded hella wrong, but let's admit it, North Korea would eat all the kimchi in Seoul within a week without America.
On October 09 2011 05:40 MotorDouglas wrote: this kind of incident is probably 2x worse in korean eyes, cos it's like someone just invading your house and doing whatever they want with you
Except it's not because without US military intervention, North Korea would pounce all over South Korea.
This is why you people are so deluded. North Korea is as threatening as a homeless dog. Their military is largely obsolete. If a war broke out between the two Koreas and no outside force interfered, North Korea would lose without a question. The whole "North Korea is a threat" thing that Americans think and fear so much rises up from pure rhetorical fear-mongering. North Korea isn't keeping sheepish because of American military presence. They're all talk because they know they don't have the capacity to do anything even if they wanted to.
On October 09 2011 05:23 jANii_ wrote: heard a rumor that south korea will react to this by taking a fast gold and do a +2 timing push
I wonder if you even use that brain god gave you... shut the fuck up. If this were your sister or daughter you wouldn't be laughing would you...
If these 2 soldiers did do the crime they should be charged and punished with the highest possible punishment. Sadly castration is not done any more but I would like to have that done to them if they truly did commit these acts.
Whenever i see stories like this i get a tear to my eye, i am an angry person by nature, so my comments usually start off with repulsive punishments. All i can do is faithfully pray for the any human beings suffering to end, and so i pray these two women regardless of the knowledge of story being true or false. I thank god they were not murdered. As for the men, I hope biblical punishments commence towards their genitals. ^_^
You guys are all ignorant. It's just a rumor as of right now, "Two U.S. soldiers have been accused of raping teenage girls in South Korea" . Innocent until PROVEN guilty. Unless that doesn't apply to korea.
On October 09 2011 05:37 MattBarry wrote: It's so stupid for people to get angry about this. 2 Americans does not represent the entire country.
You think it's stupid to get angry about rape? Who cares if they interpret 2 Americans as the entire country, I'm pretty sure having your people raped is something to get angry about regardless of the offenders nationality.
On October 09 2011 05:37 MattBarry wrote: It's so stupid for people to get angry about this. 2 Americans does not represent the entire country.
You think it's stupid to get angry about rape? Who cares if they interpret 2 Americans as the entire country, I'm pretty sure having your people raped is something to get angry about regardless of the offenders nationality.
"Absolutely Inexcusable" "Makes me sad to be an American" "Hang them" "Chemical Castration sounds good"
You people are crazy, you don't even know if they did anything. They were ACCUSED, that doesn't mean they actually did anything. It's like 90% of the people in this thread just completely skipped over those key words.
This is why you people are so deluded. North Korea is as threatening as a homeless dog. Their military is largely obsolete. If a war broke out between the two Koreas and no outside force interfered, North Korea would lose without a question. The whole "North Korea is a threat" thing that Americans think and fear so much rises up from pure rhetorical fear-mongering. North Korea isn't keeping sheepish because of American military presence. They're all talk because they know they don't have the capacity to do anything even if they wanted to.
Dont want to make this a NK vs SK but I believe North Korea have nuclear weapons and so anyone with nuclear weapons is a threat as they can make any peace of land unusable for 100s/1000s of years and kill many people.
On October 09 2011 05:47 Sandro wrote: American soldiers shouldn't be allowed outside of their bases.
Lose 28500 customers?
The negligible loss in economy is worth it in the long run so less rapes, hit and runs, murders, robberies, what have you occur.
This is implying that soldiers are more likely to commit crimes. If they aren't, then applying your logic we can just lock everybody up if the loss in economy if worth less crimes.
Meh, sounds like an isolated incident. This is the first time I have heard of servicemen in Korea being accused of something like this though. People in the service, as well as their children, have done a bunch of horrible shit overseas, look up all the marines who have been arrested in Japan for doing various retarded shit.
So, this is US military. US should just shut down 7/8 of their military and do something useful with the money, like making free healthcare for everyone. Why does America think they have to control the world?
On October 09 2011 05:55 Chewbacca. wrote: "Absolutely Inexcusable" "Makes me sad to be an American" "Hang them" "Chemical Castration sounds good"
You people are crazy, you don't even know if they did anything. They were ACCUSED, that doesn't mean they actually did anything. It's like 90% of the people in this thread just completely skipped over those key words.
Looking into it a little bit at least 1 rape would be under forceful rape, ages 18 woman and 21 solider making chemical castration not valid. But in general something like that is either the woman was raped or not raped, if raped was raped by someone looking foreign or a new recruit ir would be wearing his fatigues which would point to the US, and the US military would limit it to people who were off base during the incident and turn that person over for questioning.
The problem with the op is that it doesn't have the 2 separate stories in good detail.
On October 09 2011 05:47 Sandro wrote: American soldiers shouldn't be allowed outside of their bases.
Also, as a show of good faith, these soldiers should be tried in Korean courts and get sentenced to chemical castration.
Not saying rape should be tolerated, but punishing thousands of soldiers for the actions of 2 is ridiculous. Imagine if you were stationed overseas and not allowed to leave a base for months/years.
What happened was terrible and the soldiers should be punished for their crimes. However, this shouldn't be a reflection of the entire US armed forces.
On October 09 2011 05:37 MattBarry wrote: It's so stupid for people to get angry about this. 2 Americans does not represent the entire country.
You think it's stupid to get angry about rape? Who cares if they interpret 2 Americans as the entire country, I'm pretty sure having your people raped is something to get angry about regardless of the offenders nationality.
Angry at America I meant.
Everyone does this. Hell, the American media has demonized an entire race/religion for 9/11 and justified a war for doing it. Yes, you need to be level headed and realize that a select group of people do not represent a larger group, but you're basically beating a dead horse by pointing that out in this thread.
First of all Id like to say that yes this stuff happens all the time when foreign army's stay overseas. Its god terrible and you would hope that this kind of shit wouldn't happen today. Secondly im sorry but this is funny. No i don't think im a bad person for laughing at it, i thought it was a good joke.
On October 09 2011 05:23 jANii_ wrote: heard a rumor that south korea will react to this by taking a fast gold and do a +2 timing push
On October 09 2011 05:55 Chewbacca. wrote: "Absolutely Inexcusable" "Makes me sad to be an American" "Hang them" "Chemical Castration sounds good"
You people are crazy, you don't even know if they did anything. They were ACCUSED, that doesn't mean they actually did anything. It's like 90% of the people in this thread just completely skipped over those key words.
Looking into it a little bit at least 1 rape would be under forceful rape, ages 18 woman and 21 solider making chemical castration not valid. But in general something like that is either the woman was raped or not raped, if raped was raped by someone looking foreign or a new recruit ir would be wearing his fatigues which would point to the US, and the US military would limit it to people who were off base during the incident and turn that person over for questioning.
The problem with the op is that it doesn't have the 2 separate stories in good detail.
??? Sorry but I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say in this post at all... :/
On October 09 2011 05:55 Chewbacca. wrote: "Absolutely Inexcusable" "Makes me sad to be an American" "Hang them" "Chemical Castration sounds good"
You people are crazy, you don't even know if they did anything. They were ACCUSED, that doesn't mean they actually did anything. It's like 90% of the people in this thread just completely skipped over those key words.
Looking into it a little bit at least 1 rape would be under forceful rape, ages 18 woman and 21 solider making chemical castration not valid. But in general something like that is either the woman was raped or not raped, if raped was raped by someone looking foreign or a new recruit ir would be wearing his fatigues which would point to the US, and the US military would limit it to people who were off base during the incident and turn that person over for questioning.
The problem with the op is that it doesn't have the 2 separate stories in good detail.
Which basically led to this thread becoming another bash america and their military thread. Until those soldiers are PROVEN guilty, I would hope to see team liquid members be a little more open minded. But that ain't happening since it seems the only thing that they learned in school was how to mindlessly bash america.
On October 09 2011 05:55 Chewbacca. wrote: "Absolutely Inexcusable" "Makes me sad to be an American" "Hang them" "Chemical Castration sounds good"
You people are crazy, you don't even know if they did anything. They were ACCUSED, that doesn't mean they actually did anything. It's like 90% of the people in this thread just completely skipped over those key words.
Looking into it a little bit at least 1 rape would be under forceful rape, ages 18 woman and 21 solider making chemical castration not valid. But in general something like that is either the woman was raped or not raped, if raped was raped by someone looking foreign or a new recruit ir would be wearing his fatigues which would point to the US, and the US military would limit it to people who were off base during the incident and turn that person over for questioning.
The problem with the op is that it doesn't have the 2 separate stories in good detail.
??? Sorry but I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say in this post at all... :/
LOL I know. I saw he replied to my post so I was going to reply back...but I have no idea what he is trying to say.
On October 09 2011 05:58 Fus wrote: So, this is US military. US should just shut down 7/8 of their military and do something useful with the money, like making free healthcare for everyone. Why does America think they have to control the world?
I completely agree with you. From the USA i am.
It's just that corporations control the minds of the people here, and much profiteering is to be made in the war & gun industry. It's a shame.
How they control the minds of the people is both complex and simple.
On October 09 2011 05:58 Fus wrote: So, this is US military. US should just shut down 7/8 of their military and do something useful with the money, like making free healthcare for everyone. Why does America think they have to control the world?
The US military is often relied upon by other countries to do things (for example, recently Libya).
Maybe this isn't ideal for the world, nor for the USA, but it's not just the USA's fault.
I find this kind of stupid. People do all kinds of crime but just because the two were soldiers the headline is now "U.S. solders did such and such." There are black sheep everywhere but as long as the rate of crime done by U.S. soldiers is not higher than that of the others it's highly illogical to conclude somehow that all of them are like that...
P.S.: I also think that the US is there to help south korea else they wouldnt even be there anymore...
On October 09 2011 05:47 Sandro wrote: American soldiers shouldn't be allowed outside of their bases.
Also, as a show of good faith, these soldiers should be tried in Korean courts and get sentenced to chemical castration.
Not saying rape should be tolerated, but punishing thousands of soldiers for the actions of 2 is ridiculous. Imagine if you were stationed overseas and not allowed to leave a base for months/years.
What happened was terrible and the soldiers should be punished for their crimes. However, this shouldn't be a reflection of the entire US armed forces.
Exactly. And it shouldn't make any American "ashamed" of who they are. I'm not American, but I am logical. I'm pretty sure there are a handful of Korean men who have done their fair share of raping their own kind. This in particular just got attention because they're foreigners, particularly US military personnel. I wouldn't be surprised if the people who are angered by this have anti-American sentiments, or at least against US military presence. They haven't been convicted, they haven't been found guilty.
Rape is pretty much a straight ticket to hell, and if these guys were ever convicted, I would hope the Koreans had the final say on their sentence. But let's hold off the America should leave visavis NK would own SK or the bash-America discussions until then.
On October 09 2011 05:52 Grobyc wrote: You think it's stupid to get angry about rape? Who cares if they interpret 2 Americans as the entire country, I'm pretty sure having your people raped is something to get angry about regardless of the offenders nationality.
Just to point out how absurd your line of thinking is: What would you do if 2 black people or foreigners would rape someone? Would you then be angry at all blacks and all foreigners??
On October 09 2011 06:03 rockerman101 wrote: god its horrible that we have soldiers doing this shit
You cannot be that naiive, we have soldiers doing this shit in the United States. Believe it or not committing crimes is not limited to a certain population!
At every base I've been stationed at, every Friday we have a "safety brief" where they specifically tell us to not do dumb shit, and then the guy goes on and list every crime in the book (and certain non crimes in the civilian sector but crimes in the military sector e:. adultery), while we stand there in the rain. We are not a special breed of people filled with morals and honor. In the armed forces we perform a job and as much as they try to brainwash and civilians try to view us as something else, we are just humans. We have the same desires and wishes as you do and yes, some of us are scumbags. We are suppose to represent the American people and sadly we do, the good and the bad. We want to represent the "best" of America but that is a goal not a reality.
This is why you people are so deluded. North Korea is as threatening as a homeless dog. Their military is largely obsolete. If a war broke out between the two Koreas and no outside force interfered, North Korea would lose without a question. The whole "North Korea is a threat" thing that Americans think and fear so much rises up from pure rhetorical fear-mongering. North Korea isn't keeping sheepish because of American military presence. They're all talk because they know they don't have the capacity to do anything even if they wanted to.
Dont want to make this a NK vs SK but I believe North Korea have nuclear weapons and so anyone with nuclear weapons is a threat as they can make any peace of land unusable for 100s/1000s of years and kill many people.
Do you really think that a nuclear weapon is a viable threat against a nation that resides in the same thumb-sized peninsula? Not to mention that North Korea's nuclear posturing is expressly for the sake of political posturing, not active military use. Furthermore, this doesn't change the fact that their military is obsolete in every aspect, and so they would ultimately lose if they were to ever even consider the absolutely nonsensical and stupid idea of invading South Korea. It makes no goddamned sense in any way. This is why the idea that North Korea would attack South Korea without hesitation if America retreated is just stupid, and you have to be an idiot to think so.
I mean, lets just ignore the fact that South Korea and North Korea were trying to establish better relations until current administration took power in South Korea, right?
I don't really see how it's any different if it was koreans who did it. This thread is just one big rumor where people say it's horrible with knowing if there is any truth to it.
We might as well add a poll since people seems to know they are guilty
The reason this is news is because U.S. soldiers stationed overseas is a sensitive issue in those countries and when a crime is committed some people think "this crime wouldn't have happened if these people weren't here."
Kind of like in the states if a legal Canadian immigrant were to murder someone nobody would care, but if an illegal Mexican immigrant did the same it would be an outrage to some people. If this were an American tourist that did the rape nobody would say, "Ban tourists!" But I imagine there is already some bad blood with overseas soldiers that makes something like this just adding fuel to an already burning fire.
On October 09 2011 06:09 UisTehSux wrote: Let the generalizations begin..
Nah don't need to generalise. Same stuff has happened since 1945, oh make it 1944 for that matter. Okinawa and Japan have had plenty of rapes in the past from American GI's. Even Australian GI's at that. Nothing to be ashamed of as an American - I guarantee that your average soldier would do the same in the same situation.
But I mean... seriously... the war has been over for 65 years... there isn't really the "war is very traumatic / I my not live to see anothehr day" excuse for american GI's to rape girls.
On October 09 2011 05:38 Neeh wrote: Woha, suprised at the ammount of soldiers the US got stuffed all over, for over 60 year old conflicts. You'd think they would start to trickle it down abit over such a long time..
But still, the Korean War isn't officially ended... I'm Korean but I understand~
But this is just terrible.. sorry for the victims~
On October 09 2011 06:16 Whias_k wrote: I don't really see how it's any different if it was koreans who did it. This thread is just one big rumor where people say it's horrible with knowing if there is any truth to it.
We might as well add a poll since people seems to know they are guilty
SEOUL – A Camp Casey soldier accused of the Sept. 24 rape of an 18-year-old South Korean woman will be transferred to South Korean custody Thursday, according to the U.S. Army’s 2nd Infantry Division.
The soldier, a private first class whose name has not been released, allegedly entered the woman’s home, a small room in a goshitel — a low-budget hotel with dormitory-style rooms — and raped her, according to Park Sang Yung, chief of the Dongducheon Police Station.
According to Dongducheon police, the 21-year-old soldier also used scissors and a knife in the attack. The victim remains hospitalized for mental trauma caused by the attack, according to the head of police department’s violent crime division. She sustained minor injuries to two fingers while trying to fend off his attack, the official said.
The soldier has confessed to the rape and said he was drunk at the time, the official said.
The district court in Uijeongbu, Gyeonggi Province, ordered the arrest of the 21-year-old Army private of the 2nd Infantry Division in Dongducheon accused of raping an 18-year-old at her home near his unit around 4 a.m. on Sept. 24.
The private, who was apparently drunk and armed at the time, allegedly broke into her home as the woman was watching television, raped her and then fled.
The Soldier was filmed as he entered the building in a surveillance camera installed near the victim's home and the police notified the U.S. military of its findings.
"Considering the gravity of the offense, and the fact that the suspect has been summoned for questioning, we issued a warrant for detention for the suspect as there are chances he may flee," said Oh Yeon-soo, the judge in charge of the case, Saturday.
Can't find anything on the other case
Army Brig. Gen. David Conboy, who supervises the U.S. garrison in Seoul, issued a statement apologizing for "pain" caused by allegations that a U.S. soldier raped a girl in her rented room in Seoul on Sept. 17. That solider — a private in his early 20s — is being questioned by police but has not been arrested.
Another U.S. private has been arrested on suspicion of raping a teenage girl on Sept. 24 in a city north of Seoul.
The one is the 2nd one ie sept 24th
I'll see if i can find more detail stories about the sept 17th one.
With 30,000 soldiers there, some rapes will occur.
So you're okay with US soldiers committing crimes in other countries because "boys will be boys?"
You're saying "US soldiers", which almost implies that these men's actions were condoned by the US military.
If you took 30,000 korean men at random, they probably commit just as many, if not more, rapes than the US soldiers do. To use these rapes to fuel anti-American sentiments is pretty ridiculous.
One of the cases involves 21-year-old soldier who allegedly broke into a girl's home on September 17, U.S. Forces Korea, said in a statement.
The soldier, who was identified only as "R", is accused of raping the girl and stealing a computer from the home.
"He had been drinking with her earlier in the evening and walked her home," the military statement said. "Police say the accused says it was consensual but admits to stealing her computer. Police are now studying DNA evidence and CCTV footage."
With 30,000 soldiers there, some rapes will occur.
So you're okay with US soldiers committing crimes in other countries because "boys will be boys?"
You're saying "US soldiers", which almost implies that these men's actions were condoned by the US military.
If you took 30,000 korean men at random, they probably commit just as many, if not more, rapes than the US soldiers do. To use these rapes to fuel anti-American sentiments is pretty ridiculous.
On October 09 2011 05:52 Grobyc wrote: You think it's stupid to get angry about rape? Who cares if they interpret 2 Americans as the entire country, I'm pretty sure having your people raped is something to get angry about regardless of the offenders nationality.
I think it's stupid to get angry over it. What good comes from getting angry over it? In general getting angry just makes things worse. The two guys will be tried, and if they're found guilty will get punished. Nothing to be upset over.
In practice I understand that human emotional responses are not that easy to overcome, but it doesn't excuse how stupid it is to get angry over this.
Why are people making excuses? These aren't normal people, these are professional soldiers stationed by a foreign country. When things like these happen, it will not be looked upon as a crime by a simple person, as a representative of a body. It does not matter that they are not because the racial and political divide between the populace and these people will allow demonization across the gap.
On October 09 2011 05:52 Grobyc wrote: You think it's stupid to get angry about rape? Who cares if they interpret 2 Americans as the entire country, I'm pretty sure having your people raped is something to get angry about regardless of the offenders nationality.
I think it's stupid to get angry over it. What good comes from getting angry over it? In general getting angry just makes things worse. The two guys will be tried, and if they're found guilty will get punished. Nothing to be upset over.
In practice I understand that human emotional responses are not that easy to overcome, but it doesn't excuse how stupid it is to get angry over this.
What? So if something bad happened to you personally, like something bashing your head into the curb, you shouldn't get upset about it, since what happens happens, right?
On October 09 2011 05:40 MrHoon wrote: Koreans in general don't have very good feelings to American Military personals (most asian countries are the same) Infact if you go to some bars and clubs in Korea, there are signs which has "NO GIs ALLOWED" pasted right in front of it.
On October 09 2011 05:37 MattBarry wrote: It's so stupid for people to get angry about this. 2 Americans does not represent the entire country.
As a Korean American, I try my best to tell my fellow fobfest Korean peers in Korea that generalizing America (actually, every country) is not the best way to do it
Especially a country like America where there are so many different types of personalities
Did you know my gf (who is like 99999% fob Korean) was in shock when she learned how bad the American economy was? Infact I was shocked that most Koreans didn't know how hard america is having it right now
Lets be honest, most Koreans don't really know anything outside of Korea.
On October 09 2011 05:41 Vocal wrote: As pointed out in the OP, this has happened in plenty in the past. And no, not just Japan. Philippines, Indonesia, Thailand, Malaysia, and Singapore. Not to mention the countless "visits" on ports by the Navy.
Discuss this on a moral or philosophical basis, but there's really no point including politics in this. South Korea needs America. I don't mean offense here, but I'd rather have one or two rape cases a month than lose America's presence in the region. I know that might have sounded hella wrong, but let's admit it, North Korea would eat all the kimchi in Seoul within a week without America.
On October 09 2011 05:40 MotorDouglas wrote: this kind of incident is probably 2x worse in korean eyes, cos it's like someone just invading your house and doing whatever they want with you
Except it's not because without US military intervention, North Korea would pounce all over South Korea.
This is why you people are so deluded. North Korea is as threatening as a homeless dog. Their military is largely obsolete. If a war broke out between the two Koreas and no outside force interfered, North Korea would lose without a question. The whole "North Korea is a threat" thing that Americans think and fear so much rises up from pure rhetorical fear-mongering. North Korea isn't keeping sheepish because of American military presence. They're all talk because they know they don't have the capacity to do anything even if they wanted to.
Pretty sure the U.S is there in case China decides to jump in.
Atrocious and shocking, if it happened. Also atrocious and shocking is the fact that them being of different nationalities makes this headline news worldwide, when something like this happening between two Koreans, or two Americans, or two people of one nationality anywhere, wouldn't even be brought up hardly.
It becomes a massive big deal, however, when it provides people the opportunity to demonize an unpopular nation and institution.
Am I defending those actions? No. Reprehensible. However, it sickens me that it's somehow more important when it's an American soldier than if it was a Korean citizen.
On October 09 2011 05:52 Grobyc wrote: You think it's stupid to get angry about rape? Who cares if they interpret 2 Americans as the entire country, I'm pretty sure having your people raped is something to get angry about regardless of the offenders nationality.
I think it's stupid to get angry over it. What good comes from getting angry over it? In general getting angry just makes things worse. The two guys will be tried, and if they're found guilty will get punished. Nothing to be upset over.
In practice I understand that human emotional responses are not that easy to overcome, but it doesn't excuse how stupid it is to get angry over this.
What? So if something bad happened to you personally, like something bashing your head into the curb, you shouldn't get upset about it, since what happens happens, right?
I donno if your analogy is quite logical.
But to respond to Petninja, this isn't just a simple issue of rape. Historically, the problem is that American soldiers have not been tried correctly for their crimes (such as murder and rape) in Korea, nor have they received proper punishment. This basically demonstrates Korea's powerlessness against the U.S, and makes Koreans view them as "colonizers." This within the historical context of Korea's shaky modern history as a Japanese colony, and then being divided by U.S.S.R and the U.S, pretty much unleashes a shitstorm of anti-hegemonic and nationalistic sentiments.
On October 09 2011 07:02 JingleHell wrote: Atrocious and shocking, if it happened. Also atrocious and shocking is the fact that them being of different nationalities makes this headline news worldwide, when something like this happening between two Koreans, or two Americans, or two people of one nationality anywhere, wouldn't even be brought up hardly.
It becomes a massive big deal, however, when it provides people the opportunity to demonize an unpopular nation and institution.
Am I defending those actions? No. Reprehensible. However, it sickens me that it's somehow more important when it's an American soldier than if it was a Korean citizen.
Was about to write exactly this. Yes, its disgusting as hell, but how does it make it worse that they are americans? I'm sure its not a rape free country without the Americans either.
On October 09 2011 05:40 MrHoon wrote: Koreans in general don't have very good feelings to American Military personals (most asian countries are the same) Infact if you go to some bars and clubs in Korea, there are signs which has "NO GIs ALLOWED" pasted right in front of it.
On October 09 2011 05:37 MattBarry wrote: It's so stupid for people to get angry about this. 2 Americans does not represent the entire country.
As a Korean American, I try my best to tell my fellow fobfest Korean peers in Korea that generalizing America (actually, every country) is not the best way to do it
Especially a country like America where there are so many different types of personalities
Did you know my gf (who is like 99999% fob Korean) was in shock when she learned how bad the American economy was? Infact I was shocked that most Koreans didn't know how hard america is having it right now
Lets be honest, most Koreans don't really know anything outside of Korea.
On October 09 2011 05:41 Vocal wrote: As pointed out in the OP, this has happened in plenty in the past. And no, not just Japan. Philippines, Indonesia, Thailand, Malaysia, and Singapore. Not to mention the countless "visits" on ports by the Navy.
Discuss this on a moral or philosophical basis, but there's really no point including politics in this. South Korea needs America. I don't mean offense here, but I'd rather have one or two rape cases a month than lose America's presence in the region. I know that might have sounded hella wrong, but let's admit it, North Korea would eat all the kimchi in Seoul within a week without America.
On October 09 2011 05:42 MattBarry wrote:
On October 09 2011 05:40 MotorDouglas wrote: this kind of incident is probably 2x worse in korean eyes, cos it's like someone just invading your house and doing whatever they want with you
Except it's not because without US military intervention, North Korea would pounce all over South Korea.
This is why you people are so deluded. North Korea is as threatening as a homeless dog. Their military is largely obsolete. If a war broke out between the two Koreas and no outside force interfered, North Korea would lose without a question. The whole "North Korea is a threat" thing that Americans think and fear so much rises up from pure rhetorical fear-mongering. North Korea isn't keeping sheepish because of American military presence. They're all talk because they know they don't have the capacity to do anything even if they wanted to.
Pretty sure the U.S is there in case China decides to jump in.
For the most part this is right, although the fall of the cccp makes people think all communistic wars were done there, china was the main ally in the korean war and they have made it clear from time to time that they like the status quo of having north korea acting as a buffer state. But it's all hear say to try and figure out how a war would turn out if china would help or discourage a north Korean attack due to it's effects on the status quo. And with paranoia running the military our 2 ocean navy is actually looking to move from the pacific and Atlantic to being a pacific and indian ocean navy holding the main bulk.
On October 09 2011 06:42 ddrddrddrddr wrote: Why are people making excuses? These aren't normal people, these are professional soldiers stationed by a foreign country. When things like these happen, it will not be looked upon as a crime by a simple person, as a representative of a body. It does not matter that they are not because the racial and political divide between the populace and these people will allow demonization across the gap.
Why are soldiers not considered normal people? Have you ever served? You do know that the U.S. military in a way acts like a corporation. You have people working for other people, that applies everywhere. What makes them different? Just because they can shoot a gun? What do you define as a normal person?
I don't see how these two soldiers are "representatives of a body". That's basically saying that they represent America as the "lets go to other foreign countries just to rape the women". Your logic is the same reason why people in America generalize blacks/mexicans for crimes.
The people in charge of those soldiers already issued an apology and will deal with the situation accordingly. Just wait and see if they are truly guilty or not.
On October 09 2011 05:37 MattBarry wrote: It's so stupid for people to get angry about this. 2 Americans does not represent the entire country.
They're American soldiers stationed in a foreign country. Like it or not, they're there are representatives of the US. What they do matters.
Exactly, and they will be punished if the allegations are true. It doesn't make it right for people in this topic to judge the rest of the soldiers because of some bad apples.
On October 09 2011 05:52 Grobyc wrote: You think it's stupid to get angry about rape? Who cares if they interpret 2 Americans as the entire country, I'm pretty sure having your people raped is something to get angry about regardless of the offenders nationality.
I think it's stupid to get angry over it. What good comes from getting angry over it? In general getting angry just makes things worse. The two guys will be tried, and if they're found guilty will get punished. Nothing to be upset over.
In practice I understand that human emotional responses are not that easy to overcome, but it doesn't excuse how stupid it is to get angry over this.
What? So if something bad happened to you personally, like something bashing your head into the curb, you shouldn't get upset about it, since what happens happens, right?
It's strawmanning. Bad things happen in the world. For the actually rare bad things that happen, plenty of good things and inconsequential things happen.
People shouldn't get angry over this in the sense that they will lose the use of their reason and operate on simple prejudice. We should spare a little sympathy for victims whenever we find them. But a lynch mob won't help. If they're legitimate accusations, they'll be tried or litigated. What more can any of us do?
On October 09 2011 05:40 MrHoon wrote: Koreans in general don't have very good feelings to American Military personals (most asian countries are the same) Infact if you go to some bars and clubs in Korea, there are signs which has "NO GIs ALLOWED" pasted right in front of it.
On October 09 2011 05:37 MattBarry wrote: It's so stupid for people to get angry about this. 2 Americans does not represent the entire country.
As a Korean American, I try my best to tell my fellow fobfest Korean peers in Korea that generalizing America (actually, every country) is not the best way to do it
Especially a country like America where there are so many different types of personalities
Did you know my gf (who is like 99999% fob Korean) was in shock when she learned how bad the American economy was? Infact I was shocked that most Koreans didn't know how hard america is having it right now
Lets be honest, most Koreans don't really know anything outside of Korea.
On October 09 2011 05:41 Vocal wrote: As pointed out in the OP, this has happened in plenty in the past. And no, not just Japan. Philippines, Indonesia, Thailand, Malaysia, and Singapore. Not to mention the countless "visits" on ports by the Navy.
Discuss this on a moral or philosophical basis, but there's really no point including politics in this. South Korea needs America. I don't mean offense here, but I'd rather have one or two rape cases a month than lose America's presence in the region. I know that might have sounded hella wrong, but let's admit it, North Korea would eat all the kimchi in Seoul within a week without America.
On October 09 2011 05:42 MattBarry wrote:
On October 09 2011 05:40 MotorDouglas wrote: this kind of incident is probably 2x worse in korean eyes, cos it's like someone just invading your house and doing whatever they want with you
Except it's not because without US military intervention, North Korea would pounce all over South Korea.
This is why you people are so deluded. North Korea is as threatening as a homeless dog. Their military is largely obsolete. If a war broke out between the two Koreas and no outside force interfered, North Korea would lose without a question. The whole "North Korea is a threat" thing that Americans think and fear so much rises up from pure rhetorical fear-mongering. North Korea isn't keeping sheepish because of American military presence. They're all talk because they know they don't have the capacity to do anything even if they wanted to.
Pretty sure the U.S is there in case China decides to jump in.
Off-topic:
Not just that, a threat is a threat, Kora here seems to forget that even if that threat can be cleared by South Korea alone (which I have my doubts at, seeing it's just theorycrafting wheter such a thing is possible or not untill such a war actually happens) it still remains a threat till it's cleared, one way or another (through peace or war putting it rather black and white. xD).
Now if North Korea decides to attack South Korea, then I am pretty damn sure there will be casulties and not a little too. And among those casulties, I have no doubts that there will be a amazing high number of civilian casulties because North Korea has actually people at the top that don't quite care wheter they bomb a city with mainly "innocent" people in it or not. On the other hand, South Korea does have interest in not hurting innocent people on North Korean soil, of course such a thing is almost near impossible in a war, but that will still prevent full out bombings from South Korea on North Korea. This can bring a huge difference when going into the battlefield and even if South Korea wins, at what costs would this be?
To even go further on this, North Korea actually has extremists to a extreme point (funny typo I am leaving in, extreme extremists.. >.<). To give you a example, their special forces hold soldiers that put themselves forward for willing execution, because they deem themselves the weak link. And they actual get executed, without hesitation. If such people hold a couple of nukes behind their backs, who knows what could happen. (source, watch Deadliest Warriors episode of the Rangers vs North Korean special forces where this information is being told by one of the people that has insight/knowledge over the North Korean special forces)
And I am pretty sure this isn't even the whole picture of it, so don't go blantly throwing out SK>NK or that NK isn't a real threat to worry about.
On-topic:
What happened there is awfull, wheter it was done by soldiers of the US army or not. Rape is something that is awful regardless who, where and how it happens, period. I just hope that punishment will come where it's due and if soldiers of the US army performed the rape then so be it. Though I don't think that the whole US, their army or the stationed soldiers there should be severly punished for the fact one of their "comrade" perhaps performed rape. Yes, they are trained, but the fact they are trained, disciplined doesn't make them any less human then a nerd in his basement.
Bringing out a curfew for a decent amount of time is a pretty good reaction in my eyes, it isn't a real outright severe punishment towards the people that are stationed there, but a clear message towards the people in South Korea that the army is taking the claims personally and is willing to act upon it even before the accusations are proven. Of course the curfew is in the end still a punishment of some sorts and it's unfortunate that in such a case innocent army personal in any form has to suffer to some degree from this, but I think there isn't really much the army could do else to send out a "good" message towards the inhabitants of South Korea.
Pretty sick. So sorry for both families. How do they get off on the fact of forcing someone into something their not alright with. They were probably decent looking people and in the army none the less an imo korean/philippine/japs are attracted to army dudes, so why not go out and pick up a chick instead of raping them.
On October 09 2011 05:37 MattBarry wrote: It's so stupid for people to get angry about this. 2 Americans does not represent the entire country.
They're American soldiers stationed in a foreign country. Like it or not, they're there are representatives of the US. What they do matters.
My thoughts exactly. Whether or not it's "Just 2 soldiers" (Assuming they're guilty) they are still representing the United States.
In my opinion, this is wrong. I think it is literally impossible to prevent a large body of people from committing any crimes at all. So, what represents your country are, at least in my opinion, not the crimes which are comitted by soldiers abroad (unless it happens either systematically or uncharacteristically often), but how you deal with them afterwards.
Which of course also influences the amount of crimes happening, because if people think they can get away with stuff, more crimes will happen, and if they know they won't, there will be less
Watch these Americans do whatever the fuck they want without consequence. The good thing about global hegemony is that you get to rape the women of your vassal states from time to time and still be begged not to leave.
Good lord, if you buy people's bullshit in this thread, you'd think we'd have just discovered a scientifically proven, genetic link between being American and being a rapist.
On October 09 2011 07:01 K_Dilkington wrote: I think it's very interesting that ALL of you automatically assume they're guilty.
Tends to happen when the perpetretor confess..
I read through the article, didn't see anything about a verdict being reached or having confessions. The military apologized without knowing if the allegations were true, that's pretty normal.
On October 09 2011 07:01 K_Dilkington wrote: I think it's very interesting that ALL of you automatically assume they're guilty.
Tends to happen when the perpetretor confess..
Where in the OP's article does it say that that they actually confessed? They were questioned, but they didn't confess
The top U.S. diplomat for East Asia, Kurt Campbell, apologized Friday for what he called a "tragic and inexcusable rape that took place about a week ago."
Why the fuck would a diplomat say this if there were even a shred of doubt?
Koreans do worse things to themselves on a far more frequent basis :l if US military leaves and NK attacks SK, US will suffer an even worse hit to their image .. plus soldiers help the local economy anyways, the benefits outweigh the negatives (such criminal incidents w/ US Military is very infrequent)
Koreans are pretty stupid/clueless anyways, like believing the Fan Death myth and everything revolving netizens. Anti-American sentiment is just the cool thing to do, until you think about what kind of state Korea would be in w/o Americans.
On October 09 2011 07:44 Bibdy wrote: Good lord, if you buy people's bullshit in this thread, you'd think we'd have just discovered a scientifically proven, genetic link between being American and being a rapist.
Well Americans aren't a race but their military is predominantly White and Whites are indeed more likely to commit rape than Koreans. Blacks are another significant portion of the US armed forces and are even more prone to rape than Whites.
So yes, there is a genetic link between the American military and rape.
On October 09 2011 05:58 Fus wrote: So, this is US military. US should just shut down 7/8 of their military and do something useful with the money, like making free healthcare for everyone. Why does America think they have to control the world?
This is so short sighted. I know it must make sense to you because you're from Sweden, but from a lot of American's standpoint this would just sound silly. You have to take in to account both views on the issue instead of trying to force your viewpoint.
Anyway, back on topic, I really hope this is just some kind of misunderstanding. These kinds of things are hard to read, especially as an American. The unfortunate thing is, even if they do get acquitted, this is the headline that most people around the world are going to remember when they think of soldiers stationed around the world as is usually the case with bad news that is proven to be untrue or some kind of mistake, not that things like this haven't happened before. On the other hand, if it is proven to be true, they should be punished to the full extent ASAP.
On October 09 2011 07:44 Bibdy wrote: Good lord, if you buy people's bullshit in this thread, you'd think we'd have just discovered a scientifically proven, genetic link between being American and being a rapist.
Well Americans aren't a race but their military is predominantly White and Whites are indeed more likely to commit rape than Koreans. Blacks are another significant portion of the US armed forces and are even more prone to rape than Whites.
So yes, there is a genetic link between the American military and rape.
Wait, so now genetics are equal to culture and race and...
This is just so terribly wrong. Statistically more likely, perhaps. Genetically more likely, no.
On October 09 2011 07:44 Bibdy wrote: Good lord, if you buy people's bullshit in this thread, you'd think we'd have just discovered a scientifically proven, genetic link between being American and being a rapist.
Well Americans aren't a race but their military is predominantly White and Whites are indeed more likely to commit rape than Koreans. Blacks are another significant portion of the US armed forces and are even more prone to rape than Whites.
So yes, there is a genetic link between the American military and rape.
I've backspaced like 5 sentences trying to figure out how to reply to this. Just.. what? That's quite the accusation, man. Do you have some kind of evidence you're grounding your thoughts in here or are you just blatantly trying to be offensive.
Blacks are another significant portion of the US armed forces and are even more prone to rape than Whites.
On October 09 2011 07:44 Bibdy wrote: Good lord, if you buy people's bullshit in this thread, you'd think we'd have just discovered a scientifically proven, genetic link between being American and being a rapist.
Well Americans aren't a race but their military is predominantly White and Whites are indeed more likely to commit rape than Koreans. Blacks are another significant portion of the US armed forces and are even more prone to rape than Whites.
So yes, there is a genetic link between the American military and rape.
Are you stupid? According to your genetic BS, being born American and serving in the military automatically means you were meant to rape people. Even more so if you're white or black? My God go back to school and learn to properly bash america.
On October 09 2011 07:44 Bibdy wrote: Good lord, if you buy people's bullshit in this thread, you'd think we'd have just discovered a scientifically proven, genetic link between being American and being a rapist.
Well Americans aren't a race but their military is predominantly White and Whites are indeed more likely to commit rape than Koreans. Blacks are another significant portion of the US armed forces and are even more prone to rape than Whites.
So yes, there is a genetic link between the American military and rape.
Obvious troll is obvious.
I hope those guys are turned over to Korean courts by us. If they're guilty.
On October 09 2011 07:44 Bibdy wrote: Good lord, if you buy people's bullshit in this thread, you'd think we'd have just discovered a scientifically proven, genetic link between being American and being a rapist.
Well Americans aren't a race but their military is predominantly White and Whites are indeed more likely to commit rape than Koreans. Blacks are another significant portion of the US armed forces and are even more prone to rape than Whites.
So yes, there is a genetic link between the American military and rape.
Wait, so now genetics are equal to culture and race and...
This is just so terribly wrong. Statistically more likely, yes. Genetically more likely, no.
Regardless of semantics,
Americans are pretty big fans of rape. American prisons have the highest incidence rape in the world and 1/3 of all women in the military have reported to be victims of rape.
Despite what some of you people think, this is not civilized behavior and should not be tolerated because 'human beings make mistakes'.
On October 09 2011 07:01 K_Dilkington wrote: I think it's very interesting that ALL of you automatically assume they're guilty.
Tends to happen when the perpetretor confess..
Where in the OP's article does it say that that they actually confessed? They were questioned, but they didn't confess
The top U.S. diplomat for East Asia, Kurt Campbell, apologized Friday for what he called a "tragic and inexcusable rape that took place about a week ago."
Why the fuck would a diplomat say this if there were even a shred of doubt?
Same reason people who read the news article say things without realizing that the trial hasn't happened. Trials by public opinion happen 100 times as fast as by court.
On October 09 2011 07:01 K_Dilkington wrote: I think it's very interesting that ALL of you automatically assume they're guilty.
Tends to happen when the perpetretor confess..
Where in the OP's article does it say that that they actually confessed? They were questioned, but they didn't confess
The top U.S. diplomat for East Asia, Kurt Campbell, apologized Friday for what he called a "tragic and inexcusable rape that took place about a week ago."
Why the fuck would a diplomat say this if there were even a shred of doubt?
Same reason people who read the news article say things without realizing that the trial hasn't happened. Trials by public opinion happen 100 times as fast as by court.
Tell my why a US diplomat WHO STILL HAS HIS JOB would implicitly admit guilt on behalf of the accused.
On October 09 2011 07:01 K_Dilkington wrote: I think it's very interesting that ALL of you automatically assume they're guilty.
Tends to happen when the perpetretor confess..
Where in the OP's article does it say that that they actually confessed? They were questioned, but they didn't confess
The top U.S. diplomat for East Asia, Kurt Campbell, apologized Friday for what he called a "tragic and inexcusable rape that took place about a week ago."
Why the fuck would a diplomat say this if there were even a shred of doubt?
Same reason people who read the news article say things without realizing that the trial hasn't happened. Trials by public opinion happen 100 times as fast as by court.
Tell my why a US diplomat WHO STILL HAS HIS JOB would implicitly admit guilt on behalf of the accused.
A diplomat's purpose is to mediate relations between the two countries. If they have to apologize in order to do so, so be it.
On October 09 2011 07:01 K_Dilkington wrote: I think it's very interesting that ALL of you automatically assume they're guilty.
Tends to happen when the perpetretor confess..
Where in the OP's article does it say that that they actually confessed? They were questioned, but they didn't confess
The top U.S. diplomat for East Asia, Kurt Campbell, apologized Friday for what he called a "tragic and inexcusable rape that took place about a week ago."
Why the fuck would a diplomat say this if there were even a shred of doubt?
Same reason people who read the news article say things without realizing that the trial hasn't happened. Trials by public opinion happen 100 times as fast as by court.
Tell my why a US diplomat WHO STILL HAS HIS JOB would implicitly admit guilt on behalf of the accused.
They might be sure that something happened, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the person is guilty of the crime of rape.
On October 09 2011 07:01 K_Dilkington wrote: I think it's very interesting that ALL of you automatically assume they're guilty.
Tends to happen when the perpetretor confess..
Where in the OP's article does it say that that they actually confessed? They were questioned, but they didn't confess
The top U.S. diplomat for East Asia, Kurt Campbell, apologized Friday for what he called a "tragic and inexcusable rape that took place about a week ago."
Why the fuck would a diplomat say this if there were even a shred of doubt?
Same reason people who read the news article say things without realizing that the trial hasn't happened. Trials by public opinion happen 100 times as fast as by court.
Tell my why a US diplomat WHO STILL HAS HIS JOB would implicitly admit guilt on behalf of the accused.
I just did. If those guys are guilty and the US said "wait till the trial" they look way worse than they do if they throw a few guys under the bus and later it turns out they maybe did it but it's not beyond a reasonable doubt.
On October 09 2011 05:36 TheOne85 wrote: Soldier or not, people do stupid, horrible things.
Being part of the armed forces has no effect on my opinion of this situation.
Obviously it does...
I agree with your first sentence.. but I'll add it's even worse when a soldier does it. They are supposed to serve and protect, and preach by EXAMPLE. Not abuse the position and assume it'll be swept under the rug.
On October 09 2011 05:40 MrHoon wrote: Koreans in general don't have very good feelings to American Military personals (most asian countries are the same) Infact if you go to some bars and clubs in Korea, there are signs which has "NO GIs ALLOWED" pasted right in front of it.
On October 09 2011 05:37 MattBarry wrote: It's so stupid for people to get angry about this. 2 Americans does not represent the entire country.
As a Korean American, I try my best to tell my fellow fobfest Korean peers in Korea that generalizing America (actually, every country) is not the best way to do it
Especially a country like America where there are so many different types of personalities
Did you know my gf (who is like 99999% fob Korean) was in shock when she learned how bad the American economy was? Infact I was shocked that most Koreans didn't know how hard america is having it right now
Lets be honest, most Koreans don't really know anything outside of Korea.
On October 09 2011 05:41 Vocal wrote: As pointed out in the OP, this has happened in plenty in the past. And no, not just Japan. Philippines, Indonesia, Thailand, Malaysia, and Singapore. Not to mention the countless "visits" on ports by the Navy.
Discuss this on a moral or philosophical basis, but there's really no point including politics in this. South Korea needs America. I don't mean offense here, but I'd rather have one or two rape cases a month than lose America's presence in the region. I know that might have sounded hella wrong, but let's admit it, North Korea would eat all the kimchi in Seoul within a week without America.
On October 09 2011 05:42 MattBarry wrote:
On October 09 2011 05:40 MotorDouglas wrote: this kind of incident is probably 2x worse in korean eyes, cos it's like someone just invading your house and doing whatever they want with you
Except it's not because without US military intervention, North Korea would pounce all over South Korea.
This is why you people are so deluded. North Korea is as threatening as a homeless dog. Their military is largely obsolete. If a war broke out between the two Koreas and no outside force interfered, North Korea would lose without a question. The whole "North Korea is a threat" thing that Americans think and fear so much rises up from pure rhetorical fear-mongering. North Korea isn't keeping sheepish because of American military presence. They're all talk because they know they don't have the capacity to do anything even if they wanted to.
Pretty sure the U.S is there in case China decides to jump in.
North Korea's army is not threatening in a technological way, it's the sheer numbers and biological / nuclear threat that keeps the US in country. I can tell you without a doubt that RoK would not be able to handle a full on NK attack and the casualty count would be enormous. Just because they are still using MiG-21's and most of their MiG-29's aren't even in top shape doesn't mean they are useless. NK's objective would not be to engage any army head on, it would be to infiltrate and cause as many civilian casualties as possible. So bottom line, NK is actually extremely threatening and without a US presence there they would be much more likely to push international buttons to get their way.
On the subject of China, they would never directly support NK by using their aircraft to defend NK soil. The reason China associates itself with NK is because if they do something stupid like attack the RoK, they are going to have millions of NK refugees streaming across the border into China. China's biggest problem is managing their population and the last thing they want is millions more poor people with no where to go in their country. The long term effect of NK being wiped out by US/RoK forces would be that now the US has forces stationed right next to their border, which is obviously very concerning in terms of national security.
I've studied the unclassified and classified aspects of this budding conflict for about two years, the lack of details is because I don't want to say something stupid and get myself in trouble.
What happened was terrible and the two people responsible should be punished - severely.
But anti-American sentiment from it, really? I guess the incidents happening so close to each other causes people to overreact.
Think about it, it's not as simple as 2 out of 30,000 US troops committed rape. It's more like 2 out of 100,000, or 200,000, or possibly even more. Do you think the same 30k troops are there, and have been forever? Someone needs to find out the last time this happened, and how many US troops have been in rotation in and out of the ROK since then. Unless another rape happened in the last few years, it's probably over a hundred thousand.
It's probably related to the stereotype that American English teachers come to Korea only to sleep with girls. It doesn't matter that there are tens of thousands and the rapes happen rarely, it just takes one for a political party to jump on board and the public to draw baseless conclusions.
So yes, this is bad, and those people must be punished. But if you start thinking less of Americans from this news, then you need to reevaluate your grasp on statistics and outliers.
The top U.S. diplomat for East Asia, Kurt Campbell, apologized Friday for what he called a "tragic and inexcusable rape that took place about a week ago."
"tragic and inexcusable rape that took place about a week ago."
So it's well established that girls were raped, but you people still think that there might be a chance that they weren't actually raped by the Americans.
If so, then why the hell would the AMERICAN diplomat be apologizing?
You simply do not make such a definitive public statement if your ass is not covered.
On October 09 2011 08:16 nymfaw wrote: girls get raped all the time, everywhere.. what's new?
Maybe if you think for just one second you'd notice that a korean raping another korean is in fact a very different thing than a american soldier raping a korean!
The top U.S. diplomat for East Asia, Kurt Campbell, apologized Friday for what he called a "tragic and inexcusable rape that took place about a week ago."
"tragic and inexcusable rape that took place about a week ago."
So it's well established that girls were raped, but you people still think that there might be a chance that they weren't actually raped by the Americans.
If so, then why the hell would the AMERICAN diplomat be apologizing?
You simply do not make such a definitive public statement if your ass is not covered.
Well one rape the one on the 24th was a forceful rape with the woman going to the hospital for minor injuries, that one is little doubt something wrong happened. The one on the 17th can't find as much news about and that person has not been turned over to the korean authorities because he says it was consensual sex, but he stole her laptop or something so it's messy.
The top U.S. diplomat for East Asia, Kurt Campbell, apologized Friday for what he called a "tragic and inexcusable rape that took place about a week ago."
"tragic and inexcusable rape that took place about a week ago."
So it's well established that girls were raped, but you people still think that there might be a chance that they weren't actually raped by the Americans.
If so, then why the hell would the AMERICAN diplomat be apologizing?
You simply do not make such a definitive public statement if your ass is not covered.
He apologizes because it's his job to suck up to the Koreans. Immediately at least, it's better for public image and to save face for the country as a whole to just say "sorry" and distance yourself from the suspects than to try and defend them in this case, even if they are completely innocent. This still doesn't mean that the suspects are guilty of anything, and the investigation hasn't had anyone arrested or punished yet.
With 30,000 soldiers there, some rapes will occur.
So you're okay with US soldiers committing crimes in other countries because "boys will be boys?"
You're saying "US soldiers", which almost implies that these men's actions were condoned by the US military.
If you took 30,000 korean men at random, they probably commit just as many, if not more, rapes than the US soldiers do. To use these rapes to fuel anti-American sentiments is pretty ridiculous.
On October 09 2011 08:16 Consolidate wrote: Lets try this again shall we?
The top U.S. diplomat for East Asia, Kurt Campbell, apologized Friday for what he called a "tragic and inexcusable rape that took place about a week ago."
"tragic and inexcusable rape that took place about a week ago."
So it's well established that girls were raped, but you people still think that there might be a chance that they weren't actually raped by the Americans.
If so, then why the hell would the AMERICAN diplomat be apologizing?
You simply do not make such a definitive public statement if your ass is not covered.
He apologizes because it's his job to suck up to the Koreans. Immediately at least, it's better for public image and to save face for the country as a whole to just say "sorry" and distance yourself from the suspects than to try and defend them in this case, even if they are completely innocent. This still doesn't mean that the suspects are guilty of anything, and the investigation hasn't had anyone arrested or punished yet.
That's a completely distorted view of a diplomat's range of operation.
You think a diplomat can PREEMPTIVELY admit guilt on behalf of the US army without any real knowledge of the situation? That he can spew concessionary lies because some Koreans are angry?
With 30,000 soldiers there, some rapes will occur.
So you're okay with US soldiers committing crimes in other countries because "boys will be boys?"
You're saying "US soldiers", which almost implies that these men's actions were condoned by the US military.
If you took 30,000 korean men at random, they probably commit just as many, if not more, rapes than the US soldiers do. To use these rapes to fuel anti-American sentiments is pretty ridiculous.
You misunderstand my meaning. A comparison between the % occurrence of rape between US soldiers in Korea and Koreans, not between USA citizens and Korean citizens.
I can kinda understand the argument that you need all those US Soldiers there as a deterrent to north korea. Also if north korea attacked, the US soldiers could defend the south at once i guess (you wouldn't need to fly troops over). But still it seems rather demeaning by the US that the south couldn't handle this themselves at first (support could still come later).
But this argument falls flat on it's face if you consider the > 50000 US soldiers in Germany. They are there so that if Russia attacks...!?
the men are there to kill and that is theyre mission, theyre reason for life (laber), insted of actually discussing those things this load of hypocrit talk teends to shit on men once again. damn this world is f'..ed up. would be nice if just every hypocrit just laid down and died. id want that.
I'm confused as to why this is even posted(on TL not in SK)? People get raped all the time, is this really a huge deal because they're American in Korea? And I find it curious that so many people want to voice their outrage, when every single day in America people are raped and murdered, but there's not a thread for every single one of those crimes, so why is this one unique? Mayeb I'm off base here but being a starcraft site, I can't help but think people just want to demonstrate to the TL community that they're pro Korean, rather than anti-rape. Not to say anyone condones rape, I just find it humors the reply's in here because as mentioned before, this isn't exactly a particularity shocking incident.
[QUOTE]On October 09 2011 05:50 koreasilver wrote: [QUOTE] This is why you people are so deluded. North Korea is as threatening as a homeless dog. Their military is largely obsolete. If a war broke out between the two Koreas and no outside force interfered, North Korea would lose without a question.[/QUOTE]
The whole "no outside force interfered" thing is a big assumption, China is allied with North Korea and might not hesitate to help North Korea fight if US military presence did not send a clear message: "Attacking South Korea means attacking US military bases."
[QUOTE] The whole "North Korea is a threat" thing that Americans think and fear so much rises up from pure rhetorical fear-mongering. North Korea isn't keeping sheepish because of American military presence. They're all talk because they know they don't have the capacity to do anything even if they wanted to. [/QUOTE]
According to [url=http://www.amazon.com/Escaping-North-Korea-Defiance-Repressive/dp/0742556204]Mike Kim[/url], Nearly all North Koreans (even at the top) believe that North Korea would win in an Armed Conflict with the US, and that South Korea and Japan are poorer than North Korea.
TL;DR: The thing keeping North Korea from fighting South Korea (for now) is that China has North Korea on a short leash. If US military bases weren't around to indicate that America will likely get involved if South Korea was attacked, China would be be free to decide South Korea's fate.
Klipsys, not to play down the horrible rape commited on these young girls - but you can view it as an incident that serves to highlight the issue of why the soldiers are there in the first place (i'm paraphrasing other posts but apparently posting something here multiply times is needed to get the message across.
Also you seem to suggest these men were just in SK by some coincidence, because you refer to them as just 'American'. But the issue is that they are US Soldiers payed for by the US government to be stationed in SK.
On October 09 2011 08:34 darkscream wrote: Maybe america shouldn't have 20-50k troops in every goddamned country. that might help with the soldiers raping the natives.
it isnt about the rape or w/e, it is about having 50000 - 1milion men in every country in the world and supporting it. A man with a fucking wepon follows orders and these orders in this case is from all the american citizens RIGHT? when u force a man to live in another country to kill and be stripped of all his human rights? can you still judge his actions? ye i guess u can or atleast do
people dont know what war means, an invasion needs to happen to america. the epeen of them has become like terran on 3-4 bases
Oh and it's really simple why the US military is in Korea, it's because the people in power in Korea want it that way. I'm not talking about the average Koren citizen who may have a dissenting opinion, but it's quite obvious that the Korean military and to an extent the government wants the US to remain in the region. Not that we'd just leave if they asked, but this whole concept that we're unwelcome is silly. Unwelcome by the people perhaps, but I doubt by anyone who matters politically.
On October 09 2011 08:39 Loanshark wrote: They should start decommissioning bases left over from World War 2 or the Cold War. Might help to cut down military spending and the debt issue.
I mean, Okinawa? Germany? Some random small pacific islands? Korea?
Do they really need bases there anymore?
My great uncle, Donald Gregg who was a former US ambassador to South Korea said that arm companies love it when the US put military bases in other countries. For one, you get a new chain of command, You add one more general and it branches out from there and two, more troops need to be deployed and there will be a greater demand for weapons and equipment.
On October 09 2011 08:35 Klipsys wrote: I'm confused as to why this is even posted(on TL not in SK)? People get raped all the time, is this really a huge deal because they're American in Korea? And I find it curious that so many people want to voice their outrage, when every single day in America people are raped and murdered, but there's not a thread for every single one of those crimes, so why is this one unique? Mayeb I'm off base here but being a starcraft site, I can't help but think people just want to demonstrate to the TL community that they're pro Korean, rather than anti-rape. Not to say anyone condones rape, I just find it humors the reply's in here because as mentioned before, this isn't exactly a particularity shocking incident.
That you're confused as to why this is such a big deal says more about your limited powers of cognition than it does about the significance of the issue.
This event serves to remind people of the gross reach of the US military and their curious need to have hundreds of thousands of military personnel stationed on bases across the entire world.
It's also symbolic of the nature of US dominion over the Pacific community. US soldiers stationed in Okinawa also murdered and raped Japanese women over the years. So this is not a new pattern of behavior.
It's perfectly fine that you don't find this shocking, but it's ignorant of you to imply that these events are trivial.
With 30,000 soldiers there, some rapes will occur.
So you're okay with US soldiers committing crimes in other countries because "boys will be boys?"
You're saying "US soldiers", which almost implies that these men's actions were condoned by the US military.
If you took 30,000 korean men at random, they probably commit just as many, if not more, rapes than the US soldiers do. To use these rapes to fuel anti-American sentiments is pretty ridiculous.
You misunderstand my meaning. A comparison between the % occurrence of rape between US soldiers in Korea and Koreans, not between USA citizens and Korean citizens.
How are some of you even wondering why this is such a deal? You missed the time in which the image of the US Army changed from protectors and saviors towards something terrible that no one could possibly want in his country? It is probably one of the most hated organizations on earth, of course people gonna take this serious.
One of my bros served in South Korea as an MP. To my knowledge, he did encounter many acts of drunken violence, but nothing like this. Since he was a district commander, I would think that he would have noticed something like this. In my opinion, incidents like this are unavoidable and can only be solved through better discipline on base, which is the function of the MPs.
On October 09 2011 08:35 Klipsys wrote: I'm confused as to why this is even posted(on TL not in SK)? People get raped all the time, is this really a huge deal because they're American in Korea? And I find it curious that so many people want to voice their outrage, when every single day in America people are raped and murdered, but there's not a thread for every single one of those crimes, so why is this one unique? Mayeb I'm off base here but being a starcraft site, I can't help but think people just want to demonstrate to the TL community that they're pro Korean, rather than anti-rape. Not to say anyone condones rape, I just find it humors the reply's in here because as mentioned before, this isn't exactly a particularity shocking incident.
That you're confused as to why this is such a big deal says more about your limited powers of cognition than it does about the significance of the issue.
This event serves to remind people of the gross reach of the US military and their curious need to have hundreds of thousands of military personnel stationed on bases across the entire world.
It's also symbolic of the nature of US dominion over the Pacific community. US soldiers stationed in Okinawa also murdered and raped Japanese women over the years. So this is not a new pattern of behavior.
It's perfectly fine that you don't find this shocking, but it's ignorant of you to imply that these events are trivial.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
On October 09 2011 08:53 REDBLUEGREEN wrote: How are some of you even wondering why this is such a deal? You missed the time in which the image of the US Army changed from protectors and saviors towards something terrible that no one could possibly want in his country? It is probably one of the most hated organizations on earth, of course people gonna take this serious.
This really is not much of a deal, considering the fact that the infantry branch is composed of hundreds of thousands of young men. There are many thousands of soldiers in Korea presently, and incidents like this happen infrequently, as in any other area where military troops are stationed. The solution is further discipline, not demonization.
On October 09 2011 08:53 REDBLUEGREEN wrote: How are some of you even wondering why this is such a deal? You missed the time in which the image of the US Army changed from protectors and saviors towards something terrible that no one could possibly want in his country? It is probably one of the most hated organizations on earth, of course people gonna take this serious.
They still have an image of protectors and saviors within the US. There's a culture of unconditional worship and adoration of military personnel in America, they can do no wrong as they are out there fighting for the freedom, liberty and democracy of the world and protecting their nation from the invisible threat. I guess it seems mind boggling to them that some out there could be opposed to such an organization.
On October 09 2011 08:35 Klipsys wrote: I'm confused as to why this is even posted(on TL not in SK)? People get raped all the time, is this really a huge deal because they're American in Korea? And I find it curious that so many people want to voice their outrage, when every single day in America people are raped and murdered, but there's not a thread for every single one of those crimes, so why is this one unique? Mayeb I'm off base here but being a starcraft site, I can't help but think people just want to demonstrate to the TL community that they're pro Korean, rather than anti-rape. Not to say anyone condones rape, I just find it humors the reply's in here because as mentioned before, this isn't exactly a particularity shocking incident.
That you're confused as to why this is such a big deal says more about your limited powers of cognition than it does about the significance of the issue.
This event serves to remind people of the gross reach of the US military and their curious need to have hundreds of thousands of military personnel stationed on bases across the entire world.
It's also symbolic of the nature of US dominion over the Pacific community. US soldiers stationed in Okinawa also murdered and raped Japanese women over the years. So this is not a new pattern of behavior.
It's perfectly fine that you don't find this shocking, but it's ignorant of you to imply that these events are trivial.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees.
On October 09 2011 08:35 Klipsys wrote: I'm confused as to why this is even posted(on TL not in SK)? People get raped all the time, is this really a huge deal because they're American in Korea? And I find it curious that so many people want to voice their outrage, when every single day in America people are raped and murdered, but there's not a thread for every single one of those crimes, so why is this one unique? Mayeb I'm off base here but being a starcraft site, I can't help but think people just want to demonstrate to the TL community that they're pro Korean, rather than anti-rape. Not to say anyone condones rape, I just find it humors the reply's in here because as mentioned before, this isn't exactly a particularity shocking incident.
That you're confused as to why this is such a big deal says more about your limited powers of cognition than it does about the significance of the issue.
This event serves to remind people of the gross reach of the US military and their curious need to have hundreds of thousands of military personnel stationed on bases across the entire world.
It's also symbolic of the nature of US dominion over the Pacific community. US soldiers stationed in Okinawa also murdered and raped Japanese women over the years. So this is not a new pattern of behavior.
It's perfectly fine that you don't find this shocking, but it's ignorant of you to imply that these events are trivial.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
Very well said, I hope everyone reads your post before thinking of responding to this thread. Something like this needs to be looked at with an open mind.
This is a terrible thing to happen to anyone, what nationality the rapists are does not matter, they are rapists.
On October 09 2011 08:53 REDBLUEGREEN wrote: How are some of you even wondering why this is such a deal? You missed the time in which the image of the US Army changed from protectors and saviors towards something terrible that no one could possibly want in his country? It is probably one of the most hated organizations on earth, of course people gonna take this serious.
They still have an image of protectors and saviors within the US. There's a culture of unconditional worship and adoration of military personnel in America, they can do no wrong as they are out there fighting for the freedom, liberty and democracy of the world and protecting their nation from the invisible threat. I guess it seems mind boggling to them that some out there could be opposed to such an organization.
Yes there is an image of protectors.....because they do protect us, so I don't see a problem with this. In the U.S there is a large amount of respect for people who join the military, and rightfully so. Don't act like we just blindly endorse EVERYTHING that our army does. After Abu Ghraib there was plenty of outrage. We deal with that though. The soldiers committing the atrocity are tried, court-martialed and thrown in prison. This is obviously an awful story, but I'm sure that the soldiers responsible will be tried and brought to justice, as they should be.
That said, I guess it annoys me that so many people who receive the benefit of protection from the U.S army demonize it so much.
On October 09 2011 08:35 Klipsys wrote: I'm confused as to why this is even posted(on TL not in SK)? People get raped all the time, is this really a huge deal because they're American in Korea? And I find it curious that so many people want to voice their outrage, when every single day in America people are raped and murdered, but there's not a thread for every single one of those crimes, so why is this one unique? Mayeb I'm off base here but being a starcraft site, I can't help but think people just want to demonstrate to the TL community that they're pro Korean, rather than anti-rape. Not to say anyone condones rape, I just find it humors the reply's in here because as mentioned before, this isn't exactly a particularity shocking incident.
That you're confused as to why this is such a big deal says more about your limited powers of cognition than it does about the significance of the issue.
This event serves to remind people of the gross reach of the US military and their curious need to have hundreds of thousands of military personnel stationed on bases across the entire world.
It's also symbolic of the nature of US dominion over the Pacific community. US soldiers stationed in Okinawa also murdered and raped Japanese women over the years. So this is not a new pattern of behavior.
It's perfectly fine that you don't find this shocking, but it's ignorant of you to imply that these events are trivial.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees.
What the hell are they teaching you in school?
I'm sorry, but you seem to have missed his point entirely. Let me TL:DR it for you. This thread only existed because the incident happened in Korea. TL is a site heavily used by people who follow Korean gaming tournaments, many of us liking Korean culture as well. If this had been in any other country, no one would have cared, because Korea is the only country that most of us here associate with as a whole.
That being said, I think that this should not warrant the attention it does, as things like this ahppen in any city in the world. If we are to judge this to be a symptom of a greater issue(the presence of US troops in Korea), then we must equally judge the numerous rapes in all countries to be a sign of worldwide social degradation, which obviously is not the case.
On October 09 2011 06:42 ddrddrddrddr wrote: Why are people making excuses? These aren't normal people, these are professional soldiers stationed by a foreign country. When things like these happen, it will not be looked upon as a crime by a simple person, as a representative of a body. It does not matter that they are not because the racial and political divide between the populace and these people will allow demonization across the gap.
Why are soldiers not considered normal people? Have you ever served? You do know that the U.S. military in a way acts like a corporation. You have people working for other people, that applies everywhere. What makes them different? Just because they can shoot a gun? What do you define as a normal person?
I don't see how these two soldiers are "representatives of a body". That's basically saying that they represent America as the "lets go to other foreign countries just to rape the women". Your logic is the same reason why people in America generalize blacks/mexicans for crimes.
The people in charge of those soldiers already issued an apology and will deal with the situation accordingly. Just wait and see if they are truly guilty or not.
I don't need to serve. Certain positions comes with certain expectations. Your analogy to racism is just stupid. What you're saying is that I should treat soldiers same as a random member of the American Gun Association. The soldiers come with training and discipline that separates them from normal people. Otherwise there is no reason to afford respect to soldiers.
On October 09 2011 08:35 Klipsys wrote: I'm confused as to why this is even posted(on TL not in SK)? People get raped all the time, is this really a huge deal because they're American in Korea? And I find it curious that so many people want to voice their outrage, when every single day in America people are raped and murdered, but there's not a thread for every single one of those crimes, so why is this one unique? Mayeb I'm off base here but being a starcraft site, I can't help but think people just want to demonstrate to the TL community that they're pro Korean, rather than anti-rape. Not to say anyone condones rape, I just find it humors the reply's in here because as mentioned before, this isn't exactly a particularity shocking incident.
That you're confused as to why this is such a big deal says more about your limited powers of cognition than it does about the significance of the issue.
This event serves to remind people of the gross reach of the US military and their curious need to have hundreds of thousands of military personnel stationed on bases across the entire world.
It's also symbolic of the nature of US dominion over the Pacific community. US soldiers stationed in Okinawa also murdered and raped Japanese women over the years. So this is not a new pattern of behavior.
It's perfectly fine that you don't find this shocking, but it's ignorant of you to imply that these events are trivial.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees.
What the hell are they teaching you in school?
I'm sorry, but you seem to have missed his point entirely. Let me TL:DR it for you. This thread only existed because the incident happened in Korea. TL is a site heavily used by people who follow Korean gaming tournaments, many of us liking Korean culture as well. If this had been in any other country, no one would have cared, because Korea is the only country that most of us here associate with as a whole.
That being said, I think that this should not warrant the attention it does, as things like this ahppen in any city in the world. If we are to judge this to be a symptom of a greater issue(the presence of US troops in Korea), then we must equally judge the numerous rapes in all countries to be a sign of worldwide social degradation, which obviously is not the case.
Do you know that Yukio Yatoyama literally resigned over a similar issue in the face of similar public anger?
Jesus Christ.
What is with these masses of people claiming that a story 'doesn't warrant the attention is does'.
Just because you're ignorant doesn't mean a story isn't important.
On October 09 2011 08:35 Klipsys wrote: I'm confused as to why this is even posted(on TL not in SK)? People get raped all the time, is this really a huge deal because they're American in Korea? And I find it curious that so many people want to voice their outrage, when every single day in America people are raped and murdered, but there's not a thread for every single one of those crimes, so why is this one unique? Mayeb I'm off base here but being a starcraft site, I can't help but think people just want to demonstrate to the TL community that they're pro Korean, rather than anti-rape. Not to say anyone condones rape, I just find it humors the reply's in here because as mentioned before, this isn't exactly a particularity shocking incident.
That you're confused as to why this is such a big deal says more about your limited powers of cognition than it does about the significance of the issue.
This event serves to remind people of the gross reach of the US military and their curious need to have hundreds of thousands of military personnel stationed on bases across the entire world.
It's also symbolic of the nature of US dominion over the Pacific community. US soldiers stationed in Okinawa also murdered and raped Japanese women over the years. So this is not a new pattern of behavior.
It's perfectly fine that you don't find this shocking, but it's ignorant of you to imply that these events are trivial.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
I was thinking the same thing.
But then again this site has many american-koreans so I guess they care more about the big bad white guy.
Im totally with you dude. Nobody would give 2 shits if I posted of a gang-rape incident in central London.
Typical use of media to fuel anti-American sentiments. In the USA, there are 28 rapes per 100,000 people. Now, 3/10 of 28 is 8.4. And 3/10 of 100,000 is 30,000, which happens to be the approximate amount of US forces stationed in SK. 2 cases of rape is actually ~75% lower than the average rate of rape in the US, which IMO says good things about the American soldiers there...
Yes, shitty stuff like this happens. No, it does not represent the whole of the US military or the USA itself.
On October 09 2011 08:35 Klipsys wrote: I'm confused as to why this is even posted(on TL not in SK)? People get raped all the time, is this really a huge deal because they're American in Korea? And I find it curious that so many people want to voice their outrage, when every single day in America people are raped and murdered, but there's not a thread for every single one of those crimes, so why is this one unique? Mayeb I'm off base here but being a starcraft site, I can't help but think people just want to demonstrate to the TL community that they're pro Korean, rather than anti-rape. Not to say anyone condones rape, I just find it humors the reply's in here because as mentioned before, this isn't exactly a particularity shocking incident.
That you're confused as to why this is such a big deal says more about your limited powers of cognition than it does about the significance of the issue.
This event serves to remind people of the gross reach of the US military and their curious need to have hundreds of thousands of military personnel stationed on bases across the entire world.
It's also symbolic of the nature of US dominion over the Pacific community. US soldiers stationed in Okinawa also murdered and raped Japanese women over the years. So this is not a new pattern of behavior.
It's perfectly fine that you don't find this shocking, but it's ignorant of you to imply that these events are trivial.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees.
What the hell are they teaching you in school?
I'm sorry, but you seem to have missed his point entirely. Let me TL:DR it for you. This thread only existed because the incident happened in Korea. TL is a site heavily used by people who follow Korean gaming tournaments, many of us liking Korean culture as well. If this had been in any other country, no one would have cared, because Korea is the only country that most of us here associate with as a whole.
That being said, I think that this should not warrant the attention it does, as things like this ahppen in any city in the world. If we are to judge this to be a symptom of a greater issue(the presence of US troops in Korea), then we must equally judge the numerous rapes in all countries to be a sign of worldwide social degradation, which obviously is not the case.
Do you know that Yukio Yatoyama literally resigned over a similar issue in the face of similar public anger?
Jesus Christ.
What is with these masses of people claiming that a story 'doesn't warrant the attention is does'.
Just because you're ignorant doesn't mean a story isn't important.
It's a hot button issue... but nothing will come of it. If I thought a single, relevent change in US foreign policy or troop deployment would change because of a rape then I'd care... but nothing will change.
On October 09 2011 06:42 ddrddrddrddr wrote: Why are people making excuses? These aren't normal people, these are professional soldiers stationed by a foreign country. When things like these happen, it will not be looked upon as a crime by a simple person, as a representative of a body. It does not matter that they are not because the racial and political divide between the populace and these people will allow demonization across the gap.
Why are soldiers not considered normal people? Have you ever served? You do know that the U.S. military in a way acts like a corporation. You have people working for other people, that applies everywhere. What makes them different? Just because they can shoot a gun? What do you define as a normal person?
I don't see how these two soldiers are "representatives of a body". That's basically saying that they represent America as the "lets go to other foreign countries just to rape the women". Your logic is the same reason why people in America generalize blacks/mexicans for crimes.
The people in charge of those soldiers already issued an apology and will deal with the situation accordingly. Just wait and see if they are truly guilty or not.
I don't need to serve. Certain positions comes with certain expectations. Your analogy to racism is just stupid. What you're saying is that I should treat soldiers same as a random member of the American Gun Association. The soldiers come with training and discipline that separates them from normal people. Otherwise there is no reason to afford respect to soldiers.
My brother was a military police district commander in Seoul for several months. While serving there, he encountered numerous situations where he had to deal with drunken brawlers, out-of-control drivers, and other such incidences in or near Seoul's military base. He did not see any reports of rape, and very few crimes more serious than rape(which, I might add, are a lot more common). As effectively the police commander in his district, I cannot see any way that this was anything other than an isolated case.
I believe that many people are unfairly treating the United States military in this thread. While it is undoubtable that rape occurs worldwide, committed by US soldiers near military bases, it is also true that rape occurs in every single major city worldwide, with no exceptions, much more frequently. It is a certainty that these soldiers will be brought to justice, I know that much(again, from my brother, who is still serving as an officer in the MPs).
On October 09 2011 08:35 Klipsys wrote: I'm confused as to why this is even posted(on TL not in SK)? People get raped all the time, is this really a huge deal because they're American in Korea? And I find it curious that so many people want to voice their outrage, when every single day in America people are raped and murdered, but there's not a thread for every single one of those crimes, so why is this one unique? Mayeb I'm off base here but being a starcraft site, I can't help but think people just want to demonstrate to the TL community that they're pro Korean, rather than anti-rape. Not to say anyone condones rape, I just find it humors the reply's in here because as mentioned before, this isn't exactly a particularity shocking incident.
That you're confused as to why this is such a big deal says more about your limited powers of cognition than it does about the significance of the issue.
This event serves to remind people of the gross reach of the US military and their curious need to have hundreds of thousands of military personnel stationed on bases across the entire world.
It's also symbolic of the nature of US dominion over the Pacific community. US soldiers stationed in Okinawa also murdered and raped Japanese women over the years. So this is not a new pattern of behavior.
It's perfectly fine that you don't find this shocking, but it's ignorant of you to imply that these events are trivial.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees.
What the hell are they teaching you in school?
I'm sorry, but you seem to have missed his point entirely. Let me TL:DR it for you. This thread only existed because the incident happened in Korea. TL is a site heavily used by people who follow Korean gaming tournaments, many of us liking Korean culture as well. If this had been in any other country, no one would have cared, because Korea is the only country that most of us here associate with as a whole.
That being said, I think that this should not warrant the attention it does, as things like this ahppen in any city in the world. If we are to judge this to be a symptom of a greater issue(the presence of US troops in Korea), then we must equally judge the numerous rapes in all countries to be a sign of worldwide social degradation, which obviously is not the case.
Do you know that Yukio Yatoyama literally resigned over a similar issue in the face of similar public anger?
Jesus Christ.
What is with these masses of people claiming that a story 'doesn't warrant the attention is does'.
Just because you're ignorant doesn't mean a story isn't important.
It's a hot button issue... but nothing will come of it. If I thought a single, relevent change in US foreign policy or troop deployment would change because of a rape then I'd care... but nothing will change.
You're looking at the wrong country.
Korean policy, not US, is under pressure to change due to these sorts of incidents.
On October 09 2011 08:35 Klipsys wrote: I'm confused as to why this is even posted(on TL not in SK)? People get raped all the time, is this really a huge deal because they're American in Korea? And I find it curious that so many people want to voice their outrage, when every single day in America people are raped and murdered, but there's not a thread for every single one of those crimes, so why is this one unique? Mayeb I'm off base here but being a starcraft site, I can't help but think people just want to demonstrate to the TL community that they're pro Korean, rather than anti-rape. Not to say anyone condones rape, I just find it humors the reply's in here because as mentioned before, this isn't exactly a particularity shocking incident.
That you're confused as to why this is such a big deal says more about your limited powers of cognition than it does about the significance of the issue.
This event serves to remind people of the gross reach of the US military and their curious need to have hundreds of thousands of military personnel stationed on bases across the entire world.
It's also symbolic of the nature of US dominion over the Pacific community. US soldiers stationed in Okinawa also murdered and raped Japanese women over the years. So this is not a new pattern of behavior.
It's perfectly fine that you don't find this shocking, but it's ignorant of you to imply that these events are trivial.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
I was thinking the same thing.
But then again this site has many american-koreans so I guess they care more about the big bad white guy.
Im totally with you dude. Nobody would give 2 shits if I posted of a gang-rape incident in central London.
Meh...
Yeah, quite a few of us have been wondering about that. But hey, the only time rape is newsworthy is when it creates an opportunity for discrimination against a nation for the actions of a few.
We should make threads for all kinds of atrocities throughout history, all over the world, so people can country bash freely. Dibs on the Holocaust. Oooh, I know, someone do Columbine so that gun owners can all be mass murderers. And don't forget Waco and the Branch Davidians, so that Texans can all be cultist nutjobs!
Does anyone else remember all the outcry against a 9/11 anniversary thread, on account of nobody else giving a rats ass, and America deserved it, and whatever else got said? But hey, when it's America that can look bad, lump em all together!
On October 09 2011 08:35 Klipsys wrote: I'm confused as to why this is even posted(on TL not in SK)? People get raped all the time, is this really a huge deal because they're American in Korea? And I find it curious that so many people want to voice their outrage, when every single day in America people are raped and murdered, but there's not a thread for every single one of those crimes, so why is this one unique? Mayeb I'm off base here but being a starcraft site, I can't help but think people just want to demonstrate to the TL community that they're pro Korean, rather than anti-rape. Not to say anyone condones rape, I just find it humors the reply's in here because as mentioned before, this isn't exactly a particularity shocking incident.
That you're confused as to why this is such a big deal says more about your limited powers of cognition than it does about the significance of the issue.
This event serves to remind people of the gross reach of the US military and their curious need to have hundreds of thousands of military personnel stationed on bases across the entire world.
It's also symbolic of the nature of US dominion over the Pacific community. US soldiers stationed in Okinawa also murdered and raped Japanese women over the years. So this is not a new pattern of behavior.
It's perfectly fine that you don't find this shocking, but it's ignorant of you to imply that these events are trivial.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees.
What the hell are they teaching you in school?
Do you want to use what happened to these girls as a platform to launch an Anti-American military campaign? Because that's all is being accomplished by being here. No one is talking about the actual crime here, they're arguing if the military should even be there. Again, rape happens all over the world, every single day. The only reason this is a thread is because some people want to preach the anti american sentiment, and some want to be seen as being pro Korean. If the reason this was posted was because we all hate rape, then why isn't there a thread every day for all of the women who are rape, all over the world?
On October 09 2011 08:35 Klipsys wrote: I'm confused as to why this is even posted(on TL not in SK)? People get raped all the time, is this really a huge deal because they're American in Korea? And I find it curious that so many people want to voice their outrage, when every single day in America people are raped and murdered, but there's not a thread for every single one of those crimes, so why is this one unique? Mayeb I'm off base here but being a starcraft site, I can't help but think people just want to demonstrate to the TL community that they're pro Korean, rather than anti-rape. Not to say anyone condones rape, I just find it humors the reply's in here because as mentioned before, this isn't exactly a particularity shocking incident.
That you're confused as to why this is such a big deal says more about your limited powers of cognition than it does about the significance of the issue.
This event serves to remind people of the gross reach of the US military and their curious need to have hundreds of thousands of military personnel stationed on bases across the entire world.
It's also symbolic of the nature of US dominion over the Pacific community. US soldiers stationed in Okinawa also murdered and raped Japanese women over the years. So this is not a new pattern of behavior.
It's perfectly fine that you don't find this shocking, but it's ignorant of you to imply that these events are trivial.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
I was thinking the same thing.
But then again this site has many american-koreans so I guess they care more about the big bad white guy.
Im totally with you dude. Nobody would give 2 shits if I posted of a gang-rape incident in central London.
Meh...
Yeah, quite a few of us have been wondering about that. But hey, the only time rape is newsworthy is when it creates an opportunity for discrimination against a nation for the actions of a few.
We should make threads for all kinds of atrocities throughout history, all over the world, so people can country bash freely. Dibs on the Holocaust. Oooh, I know, someone do Columbine so that gun owners can all be mass murderers. And don't forget Waco and the Branch Davidians, so that Texans can all be cultist nutjobs!
Does anyone else remember all the outcry against a 9/11 anniversary thread, on account of nobody else giving a rats ass, and America deserved it, and whatever else got said? But hey, when it's America that can look bad, lump em all together!
I'll reserve the genocide of Columbus. In all seriousness, everyone should read this before posting, as it basically sums up what I and other have been trying to get across for the past few pages.
On October 09 2011 08:35 Klipsys wrote: I'm confused as to why this is even posted(on TL not in SK)? People get raped all the time, is this really a huge deal because they're American in Korea? And I find it curious that so many people want to voice their outrage, when every single day in America people are raped and murdered, but there's not a thread for every single one of those crimes, so why is this one unique? Mayeb I'm off base here but being a starcraft site, I can't help but think people just want to demonstrate to the TL community that they're pro Korean, rather than anti-rape. Not to say anyone condones rape, I just find it humors the reply's in here because as mentioned before, this isn't exactly a particularity shocking incident.
That you're confused as to why this is such a big deal says more about your limited powers of cognition than it does about the significance of the issue.
This event serves to remind people of the gross reach of the US military and their curious need to have hundreds of thousands of military personnel stationed on bases across the entire world.
It's also symbolic of the nature of US dominion over the Pacific community. US soldiers stationed in Okinawa also murdered and raped Japanese women over the years. So this is not a new pattern of behavior.
It's perfectly fine that you don't find this shocking, but it's ignorant of you to imply that these events are trivial.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees.
What the hell are they teaching you in school?
Do you want to use what happened to these girls as a platform to launch an Anti-American military campaign? Because that's all is being accomplished by being here. No one is talking about the actual crime here, they're arguing if the military should even be there. Again, rape happens all over the world, every single day. The only reason this is a thread is because some people want to preach the anti american sentiment, and some want to be seen as being pro Korean. If the reason this was posted was because we all hate rape, then why isn't there a thread every day for all of the women who are rape, all over the world?
How would you like it if China had bases in America and began to rape our women?
On October 09 2011 08:35 Klipsys wrote: I'm confused as to why this is even posted(on TL not in SK)? People get raped all the time, is this really a huge deal because they're American in Korea? And I find it curious that so many people want to voice their outrage, when every single day in America people are raped and murdered, but there's not a thread for every single one of those crimes, so why is this one unique? Mayeb I'm off base here but being a starcraft site, I can't help but think people just want to demonstrate to the TL community that they're pro Korean, rather than anti-rape. Not to say anyone condones rape, I just find it humors the reply's in here because as mentioned before, this isn't exactly a particularity shocking incident.
That you're confused as to why this is such a big deal says more about your limited powers of cognition than it does about the significance of the issue.
This event serves to remind people of the gross reach of the US military and their curious need to have hundreds of thousands of military personnel stationed on bases across the entire world.
It's also symbolic of the nature of US dominion over the Pacific community. US soldiers stationed in Okinawa also murdered and raped Japanese women over the years. So this is not a new pattern of behavior.
It's perfectly fine that you don't find this shocking, but it's ignorant of you to imply that these events are trivial.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees.
What the hell are they teaching you in school?
I'm sorry, but you seem to have missed his point entirely. Let me TL:DR it for you. This thread only existed because the incident happened in Korea. TL is a site heavily used by people who follow Korean gaming tournaments, many of us liking Korean culture as well. If this had been in any other country, no one would have cared, because Korea is the only country that most of us here associate with as a whole.
That being said, I think that this should not warrant the attention it does, as things like this ahppen in any city in the world. If we are to judge this to be a symptom of a greater issue(the presence of US troops in Korea), then we must equally judge the numerous rapes in all countries to be a sign of worldwide social degradation, which obviously is not the case.
Do you know that Yukio Yatoyama literally resigned over a similar issue in the face of similar public anger?
Jesus Christ.
What is with these masses of people claiming that a story 'doesn't warrant the attention is does'.
Just because you're ignorant doesn't mean a story isn't important.
It's a hot button issue... but nothing will come of it. If I thought a single, relevent change in US foreign policy or troop deployment would change because of a rape then I'd care... but nothing will change.
You're looking at the wrong country.
Korean policy, not US, is under pressure to change due to these sorts of incidents.
Not to sound condescending, but Korean policy toward's the US is whatever the US wants. It's not really a bad thing, it just is what it is. The public might demonize the US or its soldiers, but it's unlikely the politicians will actually be as short-sighted as to allow the transgressions of some soldiers effect the safety of their country and relations with the US.
On October 09 2011 08:35 Klipsys wrote: I'm confused as to why this is even posted(on TL not in SK)? People get raped all the time, is this really a huge deal because they're American in Korea? And I find it curious that so many people want to voice their outrage, when every single day in America people are raped and murdered, but there's not a thread for every single one of those crimes, so why is this one unique? Mayeb I'm off base here but being a starcraft site, I can't help but think people just want to demonstrate to the TL community that they're pro Korean, rather than anti-rape. Not to say anyone condones rape, I just find it humors the reply's in here because as mentioned before, this isn't exactly a particularity shocking incident.
That you're confused as to why this is such a big deal says more about your limited powers of cognition than it does about the significance of the issue.
This event serves to remind people of the gross reach of the US military and their curious need to have hundreds of thousands of military personnel stationed on bases across the entire world.
It's also symbolic of the nature of US dominion over the Pacific community. US soldiers stationed in Okinawa also murdered and raped Japanese women over the years. So this is not a new pattern of behavior.
It's perfectly fine that you don't find this shocking, but it's ignorant of you to imply that these events are trivial.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees.
What the hell are they teaching you in school?
Do you want to use what happened to these girls as a platform to launch an Anti-American military campaign? Because that's all is being accomplished by being here. No one is talking about the actual crime here, they're arguing if the military should even be there. Again, rape happens all over the world, every single day. The only reason this is a thread is because some people want to preach the anti american sentiment, and some want to be seen as being pro Korean. If the reason this was posted was because we all hate rape, then why isn't there a thread every day for all of the women who are rape, all over the world?
How would you like it if China had bases in America and began to rape our women?
I WOULD CARE BECAUSE I'M AMERICAN. WHY WOULD SOME DUDE IN HONDURAS CARE? HE WOULDN'T. BECAUSE HES HONDURAN.
and it's not he doesn't care about people being raped, that's fucking stupid. He just doesn't care about someone being raped in another country, because it happens every day. Sorry, but there isn't anything particularly special about this case, other than the fact that it happened in Korea.
On October 09 2011 08:35 Klipsys wrote: I'm confused as to why this is even posted(on TL not in SK)? People get raped all the time, is this really a huge deal because they're American in Korea? And I find it curious that so many people want to voice their outrage, when every single day in America people are raped and murdered, but there's not a thread for every single one of those crimes, so why is this one unique? Mayeb I'm off base here but being a starcraft site, I can't help but think people just want to demonstrate to the TL community that they're pro Korean, rather than anti-rape. Not to say anyone condones rape, I just find it humors the reply's in here because as mentioned before, this isn't exactly a particularity shocking incident.
That you're confused as to why this is such a big deal says more about your limited powers of cognition than it does about the significance of the issue.
This event serves to remind people of the gross reach of the US military and their curious need to have hundreds of thousands of military personnel stationed on bases across the entire world.
It's also symbolic of the nature of US dominion over the Pacific community. US soldiers stationed in Okinawa also murdered and raped Japanese women over the years. So this is not a new pattern of behavior.
It's perfectly fine that you don't find this shocking, but it's ignorant of you to imply that these events are trivial.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees.
What the hell are they teaching you in school?
Do you want to use what happened to these girls as a platform to launch an Anti-American military campaign? Because that's all is being accomplished by being here. No one is talking about the actual crime here, they're arguing if the military should even be there. Again, rape happens all over the world, every single day. The only reason this is a thread is because some people want to preach the anti american sentiment, and some want to be seen as being pro Korean. If the reason this was posted was because we all hate rape, then why isn't there a thread every day for all of the women who are rape, all over the world?
How would you like it if China had bases in America and began to rape our women?
women are independent, they dont need mens help and men are all pigs right? iso invasion into america cuz epeen is to high
On October 09 2011 08:35 Klipsys wrote: I'm confused as to why this is even posted(on TL not in SK)? People get raped all the time, is this really a huge deal because they're American in Korea? And I find it curious that so many people want to voice their outrage, when every single day in America people are raped and murdered, but there's not a thread for every single one of those crimes, so why is this one unique? Mayeb I'm off base here but being a starcraft site, I can't help but think people just want to demonstrate to the TL community that they're pro Korean, rather than anti-rape. Not to say anyone condones rape, I just find it humors the reply's in here because as mentioned before, this isn't exactly a particularity shocking incident.
That you're confused as to why this is such a big deal says more about your limited powers of cognition than it does about the significance of the issue.
This event serves to remind people of the gross reach of the US military and their curious need to have hundreds of thousands of military personnel stationed on bases across the entire world.
It's also symbolic of the nature of US dominion over the Pacific community. US soldiers stationed in Okinawa also murdered and raped Japanese women over the years. So this is not a new pattern of behavior.
It's perfectly fine that you don't find this shocking, but it's ignorant of you to imply that these events are trivial.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees.
What the hell are they teaching you in school?
Do you want to use what happened to these girls as a platform to launch an Anti-American military campaign? Because that's all is being accomplished by being here. No one is talking about the actual crime here, they're arguing if the military should even be there. Again, rape happens all over the world, every single day. The only reason this is a thread is because some people want to preach the anti american sentiment, and some want to be seen as being pro Korean. If the reason this was posted was because we all hate rape, then why isn't there a thread every day for all of the women who are rape, all over the world?
How would you like it if China had bases in America and began to rape our women?
I don't really give a shit who does it, rape is fucking rape. Pun intended. People aren't saying ignore rape, they're saying that no matter who does it, it's bad, and making a big deal out of a specific case to make a political point is stupid.
On October 09 2011 08:35 Klipsys wrote: I'm confused as to why this is even posted(on TL not in SK)? People get raped all the time, is this really a huge deal because they're American in Korea? And I find it curious that so many people want to voice their outrage, when every single day in America people are raped and murdered, but there's not a thread for every single one of those crimes, so why is this one unique? Mayeb I'm off base here but being a starcraft site, I can't help but think people just want to demonstrate to the TL community that they're pro Korean, rather than anti-rape. Not to say anyone condones rape, I just find it humors the reply's in here because as mentioned before, this isn't exactly a particularity shocking incident.
That you're confused as to why this is such a big deal says more about your limited powers of cognition than it does about the significance of the issue.
This event serves to remind people of the gross reach of the US military and their curious need to have hundreds of thousands of military personnel stationed on bases across the entire world.
It's also symbolic of the nature of US dominion over the Pacific community. US soldiers stationed in Okinawa also murdered and raped Japanese women over the years. So this is not a new pattern of behavior.
It's perfectly fine that you don't find this shocking, but it's ignorant of you to imply that these events are trivial.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees.
What the hell are they teaching you in school?
Do you want to use what happened to these girls as a platform to launch an Anti-American military campaign? Because that's all is being accomplished by being here. No one is talking about the actual crime here, they're arguing if the military should even be there. Again, rape happens all over the world, every single day. The only reason this is a thread is because some people want to preach the anti american sentiment, and some want to be seen as being pro Korean. If the reason this was posted was because we all hate rape, then why isn't there a thread every day for all of the women who are rape, all over the world?
How would you like it if China had bases in America and began to rape our women?
I WOULD CARE BECAUSE I'M AMERICAN. WHY WOULD SOME DUDE IN HONDURAS CARE? HE WOULDN'T. BECAUSE HES HONDURAN.
and it's not he doesn't care about people being raped, that's fucking stupid. He just doesn't care about someone being raped in another country, because it happens every day. Sorry, but there isn't anything particularly special about this case, other than the fact that it happened in Korea.
Injustice anywhere dimishes justice everywhere. We're all members of this world so it's not like something that happens somewhere else is completely irrelevant.
On October 09 2011 08:35 Klipsys wrote: I'm confused as to why this is even posted(on TL not in SK)? People get raped all the time, is this really a huge deal because they're American in Korea? And I find it curious that so many people want to voice their outrage, when every single day in America people are raped and murdered, but there's not a thread for every single one of those crimes, so why is this one unique? Mayeb I'm off base here but being a starcraft site, I can't help but think people just want to demonstrate to the TL community that they're pro Korean, rather than anti-rape. Not to say anyone condones rape, I just find it humors the reply's in here because as mentioned before, this isn't exactly a particularity shocking incident.
That you're confused as to why this is such a big deal says more about your limited powers of cognition than it does about the significance of the issue.
This event serves to remind people of the gross reach of the US military and their curious need to have hundreds of thousands of military personnel stationed on bases across the entire world.
It's also symbolic of the nature of US dominion over the Pacific community. US soldiers stationed in Okinawa also murdered and raped Japanese women over the years. So this is not a new pattern of behavior.
It's perfectly fine that you don't find this shocking, but it's ignorant of you to imply that these events are trivial.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees.
What the hell are they teaching you in school?
Do you want to use what happened to these girls as a platform to launch an Anti-American military campaign? Because that's all is being accomplished by being here. No one is talking about the actual crime here, they're arguing if the military should even be there. Again, rape happens all over the world, every single day. The only reason this is a thread is because some people want to preach the anti american sentiment, and some want to be seen as being pro Korean. If the reason this was posted was because we all hate rape, then why isn't there a thread every day for all of the women who are rape, all over the world?
You fucking tell me.
Why the hell are my countrymen so deluded as to why the rest of the world might find reason for anti-american sentiment when American soldiers rape domestic nationals and are not held accountable?
Those blokes at Okinawa? You think 'justice' was served there?
On October 09 2011 08:35 Klipsys wrote: I'm confused as to why this is even posted(on TL not in SK)? People get raped all the time, is this really a huge deal because they're American in Korea? And I find it curious that so many people want to voice their outrage, when every single day in America people are raped and murdered, but there's not a thread for every single one of those crimes, so why is this one unique? Mayeb I'm off base here but being a starcraft site, I can't help but think people just want to demonstrate to the TL community that they're pro Korean, rather than anti-rape. Not to say anyone condones rape, I just find it humors the reply's in here because as mentioned before, this isn't exactly a particularity shocking incident.
That you're confused as to why this is such a big deal says more about your limited powers of cognition than it does about the significance of the issue.
This event serves to remind people of the gross reach of the US military and their curious need to have hundreds of thousands of military personnel stationed on bases across the entire world.
It's also symbolic of the nature of US dominion over the Pacific community. US soldiers stationed in Okinawa also murdered and raped Japanese women over the years. So this is not a new pattern of behavior.
It's perfectly fine that you don't find this shocking, but it's ignorant of you to imply that these events are trivial.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees.
What the hell are they teaching you in school?
Do you want to use what happened to these girls as a platform to launch an Anti-American military campaign? Because that's all is being accomplished by being here. No one is talking about the actual crime here, they're arguing if the military should even be there. Again, rape happens all over the world, every single day. The only reason this is a thread is because some people want to preach the anti american sentiment, and some want to be seen as being pro Korean. If the reason this was posted was because we all hate rape, then why isn't there a thread every day for all of the women who are rape, all over the world?
How would you like it if China had bases in America and began to rape our women?
I don't really give a shit who does it, rape is fucking rape. Pun intended. People aren't saying ignore rape, they're saying that no matter who does it, it's bad, and making a big deal out of a specific case to make a political point is stupid.
do you know that rape is biologicaly healthy? it is like saying, dont eat vegitables they are good for you
On October 09 2011 05:38 Neeh wrote: Woha, suprised at the ammount of soldiers the US got stuffed all over, for over 60 year old conflicts. You'd think they would start to trickle it down abit over such a long time..
As part of the Japanese Constitution, it is the US's job to fight wars for them. Japan is only permitted to defend themselves, not to be the aggressor.
On October 09 2011 09:14 ampson wrote: Typical use of media to fuel anti-American sentiments. In the USA, there are 28 rapes per 100,000 people. Now, 3/10 of 28 is 8.4. And 3/10 of 100,000 is 30,000, which happens to be the approximate amount of US forces stationed in SK. 2 cases of rape is actually ~75% lower than the average rate of rape in the US, which IMO says good things about the American soldiers there...
Yes, shitty stuff like this happens. No, it does not represent the whole of the US military or the USA itself.
How can you be so ignorant and put american soldiers stationed in south korea in the same position as american citizens in america. I'm not saying every soldier in SK is a rapist, but they do represent america and they are way more than just some american in SK.
On October 09 2011 08:35 Klipsys wrote: I'm confused as to why this is even posted(on TL not in SK)? People get raped all the time, is this really a huge deal because they're American in Korea? And I find it curious that so many people want to voice their outrage, when every single day in America people are raped and murdered, but there's not a thread for every single one of those crimes, so why is this one unique? Mayeb I'm off base here but being a starcraft site, I can't help but think people just want to demonstrate to the TL community that they're pro Korean, rather than anti-rape. Not to say anyone condones rape, I just find it humors the reply's in here because as mentioned before, this isn't exactly a particularity shocking incident.
That you're confused as to why this is such a big deal says more about your limited powers of cognition than it does about the significance of the issue.
This event serves to remind people of the gross reach of the US military and their curious need to have hundreds of thousands of military personnel stationed on bases across the entire world.
It's also symbolic of the nature of US dominion over the Pacific community. US soldiers stationed in Okinawa also murdered and raped Japanese women over the years. So this is not a new pattern of behavior.
It's perfectly fine that you don't find this shocking, but it's ignorant of you to imply that these events are trivial.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees.
What the hell are they teaching you in school?
Do you want to use what happened to these girls as a platform to launch an Anti-American military campaign? Because that's all is being accomplished by being here. No one is talking about the actual crime here, they're arguing if the military should even be there. Again, rape happens all over the world, every single day. The only reason this is a thread is because some people want to preach the anti american sentiment, and some want to be seen as being pro Korean. If the reason this was posted was because we all hate rape, then why isn't there a thread every day for all of the women who are rape, all over the world?
You fucking tell me.
Why the hell are my countrymen so deluded as to why the rest of the world might find reason for anti-american sentiment when American soldiers rape domestic nationals and are not held accountable?
Those blokes at Okinawa? You think 'justice' was served there?
Your nationalist bias is showing pretty clearly.
There are people saying they shouldn't be punished? Where? Putting the cart before the horse or can you see into the future?
In 1995, the rape of a 12-year-old Japanese girl by U.S. service members in Okinawa sparked one of the biggest anti-U.S. protests in Japan. About 50,000 U.S. troops are stationed in Japan in a post-World War II security pact.
On October 09 2011 08:35 Klipsys wrote: I'm confused as to why this is even posted(on TL not in SK)? People get raped all the time, is this really a huge deal because they're American in Korea? And I find it curious that so many people want to voice their outrage, when every single day in America people are raped and murdered, but there's not a thread for every single one of those crimes, so why is this one unique? Mayeb I'm off base here but being a starcraft site, I can't help but think people just want to demonstrate to the TL community that they're pro Korean, rather than anti-rape. Not to say anyone condones rape, I just find it humors the reply's in here because as mentioned before, this isn't exactly a particularity shocking incident.
That you're confused as to why this is such a big deal says more about your limited powers of cognition than it does about the significance of the issue.
This event serves to remind people of the gross reach of the US military and their curious need to have hundreds of thousands of military personnel stationed on bases across the entire world.
It's also symbolic of the nature of US dominion over the Pacific community. US soldiers stationed in Okinawa also murdered and raped Japanese women over the years. So this is not a new pattern of behavior.
It's perfectly fine that you don't find this shocking, but it's ignorant of you to imply that these events are trivial.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees.
What the hell are they teaching you in school?
I'm sorry, but you seem to have missed his point entirely. Let me TL:DR it for you. This thread only existed because the incident happened in Korea. TL is a site heavily used by people who follow Korean gaming tournaments, many of us liking Korean culture as well. If this had been in any other country, no one would have cared, because Korea is the only country that most of us here associate with as a whole.
That being said, I think that this should not warrant the attention it does, as things like this ahppen in any city in the world. If we are to judge this to be a symptom of a greater issue(the presence of US troops in Korea), then we must equally judge the numerous rapes in all countries to be a sign of worldwide social degradation, which obviously is not the case.
Do you know that Yukio Yatoyama literally resigned over a similar issue in the face of similar public anger?
Jesus Christ.
What is with these masses of people claiming that a story 'doesn't warrant the attention is does'.
Just because you're ignorant doesn't mean a story isn't important.
It's a hot button issue... but nothing will come of it. If I thought a single, relevent change in US foreign policy or troop deployment would change because of a rape then I'd care... but nothing will change.
You're looking at the wrong country.
Korean policy, not US, is under pressure to change due to these sorts of incidents.
Not to sound condescending, but Korean policy toward's the US is whatever the US wants. It's not really a bad thing, it just is what it is. The public might demonize the US or its soldiers, but it's unlikely the politicians will actually be as short-sighted as to allow the transgressions of some soldiers effect the safety of their country and relations with the US.
There's no question that SK is a vassal state of the US.
But so is Japan, and their prime minister lost his job when he went up against the US and failed.
All I'm saying is that something similar might happen in Korea of which the outcome is uncertain.
On October 09 2011 09:14 ampson wrote: Typical use of media to fuel anti-American sentiments. In the USA, there are 28 rapes per 100,000 people. Now, 3/10 of 28 is 8.4. And 3/10 of 100,000 is 30,000, which happens to be the approximate amount of US forces stationed in SK. 2 cases of rape is actually ~75% lower than the average rate of rape in the US, which IMO says good things about the American soldiers there...
Yes, shitty stuff like this happens. No, it does not represent the whole of the US military or the USA itself.
How can you be so ignorant and put american soldiers stationed in south korea in the same position as american citizens in america. I'm not saying every soldier in SK is a rapist, but they do represent america and they are way more than just some american in SK.
what? were you born mentally retarded or did infelcity occur?
On October 09 2011 08:35 Klipsys wrote: I'm confused as to why this is even posted(on TL not in SK)? People get raped all the time, is this really a huge deal because they're American in Korea? And I find it curious that so many people want to voice their outrage, when every single day in America people are raped and murdered, but there's not a thread for every single one of those crimes, so why is this one unique? Mayeb I'm off base here but being a starcraft site, I can't help but think people just want to demonstrate to the TL community that they're pro Korean, rather than anti-rape. Not to say anyone condones rape, I just find it humors the reply's in here because as mentioned before, this isn't exactly a particularity shocking incident.
That you're confused as to why this is such a big deal says more about your limited powers of cognition than it does about the significance of the issue.
This event serves to remind people of the gross reach of the US military and their curious need to have hundreds of thousands of military personnel stationed on bases across the entire world.
It's also symbolic of the nature of US dominion over the Pacific community. US soldiers stationed in Okinawa also murdered and raped Japanese women over the years. So this is not a new pattern of behavior.
It's perfectly fine that you don't find this shocking, but it's ignorant of you to imply that these events are trivial.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees.
What the hell are they teaching you in school?
Do you want to use what happened to these girls as a platform to launch an Anti-American military campaign? Because that's all is being accomplished by being here. No one is talking about the actual crime here, they're arguing if the military should even be there. Again, rape happens all over the world, every single day. The only reason this is a thread is because some people want to preach the anti american sentiment, and some want to be seen as being pro Korean. If the reason this was posted was because we all hate rape, then why isn't there a thread every day for all of the women who are rape, all over the world?
You fucking tell me.
Why the hell are my countrymen so deluded as to why the rest of the world might find reason for anti-american sentiment when American soldiers rape domestic nationals and are not held accountable?
Those blokes at Okinawa? You think 'justice' was served there?
Your nationalist bias is showing pretty clearly.
Did you just say "not held accountable?" THERE BEING CHARGED WITH RAPE! (IF THEY'RE EVEN FOUND GUILTY) Do you think the US is going to PREVENT them from being charged and tried? FUCK NO. How stupid do you think the US military is? And I don't care about anti american sentiment. I care when people USE THE TRAGEDY OF OTHERS TO FURTHER THEIR OWN AGENDA.
On October 09 2011 08:35 Klipsys wrote: I'm confused as to why this is even posted(on TL not in SK)? People get raped all the time, is this really a huge deal because they're American in Korea? And I find it curious that so many people want to voice their outrage, when every single day in America people are raped and murdered, but there's not a thread for every single one of those crimes, so why is this one unique? Mayeb I'm off base here but being a starcraft site, I can't help but think people just want to demonstrate to the TL community that they're pro Korean, rather than anti-rape. Not to say anyone condones rape, I just find it humors the reply's in here because as mentioned before, this isn't exactly a particularity shocking incident.
That you're confused as to why this is such a big deal says more about your limited powers of cognition than it does about the significance of the issue.
This event serves to remind people of the gross reach of the US military and their curious need to have hundreds of thousands of military personnel stationed on bases across the entire world.
It's also symbolic of the nature of US dominion over the Pacific community. US soldiers stationed in Okinawa also murdered and raped Japanese women over the years. So this is not a new pattern of behavior.
It's perfectly fine that you don't find this shocking, but it's ignorant of you to imply that these events are trivial.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees.
What the hell are they teaching you in school?
I'm sorry, but you seem to have missed his point entirely. Let me TL:DR it for you. This thread only existed because the incident happened in Korea. TL is a site heavily used by people who follow Korean gaming tournaments, many of us liking Korean culture as well. If this had been in any other country, no one would have cared, because Korea is the only country that most of us here associate with as a whole.
That being said, I think that this should not warrant the attention it does, as things like this ahppen in any city in the world. If we are to judge this to be a symptom of a greater issue(the presence of US troops in Korea), then we must equally judge the numerous rapes in all countries to be a sign of worldwide social degradation, which obviously is not the case.
Do you know that Yukio Yatoyama literally resigned over a similar issue in the face of similar public anger?
Jesus Christ.
What is with these masses of people claiming that a story 'doesn't warrant the attention is does'.
Just because you're ignorant doesn't mean a story isn't important.
It's a hot button issue... but nothing will come of it. If I thought a single, relevent change in US foreign policy or troop deployment would change because of a rape then I'd care... but nothing will change.
You're looking at the wrong country.
Korean policy, not US, is under pressure to change due to these sorts of incidents.
Not to sound condescending, but Korean policy toward's the US is whatever the US wants. It's not really a bad thing, it just is what it is. The public might demonize the US or its soldiers, but it's unlikely the politicians will actually be as short-sighted as to allow the transgressions of some soldiers effect the safety of their country and relations with the US.
There's no question that SK is a vassal state of the US.
But so is Japan, and their prime minister lost his job when he went up against the US and failed.
All I'm saying is that something similar might happen in Korea of which the outcome is uncertain.
But it wont change anything. He might lose his job. He might be replaced. But not for one single second do I believe a new leader in any form will change its policy towards the US because they understand how important it is to not get emotional over one small incident.
On October 09 2011 08:35 Klipsys wrote: I'm confused as to why this is even posted(on TL not in SK)? People get raped all the time, is this really a huge deal because they're American in Korea? And I find it curious that so many people want to voice their outrage, when every single day in America people are raped and murdered, but there's not a thread for every single one of those crimes, so why is this one unique? Mayeb I'm off base here but being a starcraft site, I can't help but think people just want to demonstrate to the TL community that they're pro Korean, rather than anti-rape. Not to say anyone condones rape, I just find it humors the reply's in here because as mentioned before, this isn't exactly a particularity shocking incident.
That you're confused as to why this is such a big deal says more about your limited powers of cognition than it does about the significance of the issue.
This event serves to remind people of the gross reach of the US military and their curious need to have hundreds of thousands of military personnel stationed on bases across the entire world.
It's also symbolic of the nature of US dominion over the Pacific community. US soldiers stationed in Okinawa also murdered and raped Japanese women over the years. So this is not a new pattern of behavior.
It's perfectly fine that you don't find this shocking, but it's ignorant of you to imply that these events are trivial.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees.
What the hell are they teaching you in school?
Do you want to use what happened to these girls as a platform to launch an Anti-American military campaign? Because that's all is being accomplished by being here. No one is talking about the actual crime here, they're arguing if the military should even be there. Again, rape happens all over the world, every single day. The only reason this is a thread is because some people want to preach the anti american sentiment, and some want to be seen as being pro Korean. If the reason this was posted was because we all hate rape, then why isn't there a thread every day for all of the women who are rape, all over the world?
You fucking tell me.
Why the hell are my countrymen so deluded as to why the rest of the world might find reason for anti-american sentiment when American soldiers rape domestic nationals and are not held accountable?
Those blokes at Okinawa? You think 'justice' was served there?
Your nationalist bias is showing pretty clearly.
Did you just say "not held accountable?" THERE BEING CHARGED WITH RAPE! (IF THEY'RE EVEN FOUND GUILTY) Do you think the US is going to PREVENT them from being charged and tried? FUCK NO. How stupid do you think the US military is? And I don't care about anti american sentiment. I care when people USE THE TRAGEDY OF OTHERS TO FURTHER THEIR OWN AGENDA.
u seem mad sir, please calm down? ur so mad i cant even figure out what ur fundamental context is
On October 09 2011 08:35 Klipsys wrote: I'm confused as to why this is even posted(on TL not in SK)? People get raped all the time, is this really a huge deal because they're American in Korea? And I find it curious that so many people want to voice their outrage, when every single day in America people are raped and murdered, but there's not a thread for every single one of those crimes, so why is this one unique? Mayeb I'm off base here but being a starcraft site, I can't help but think people just want to demonstrate to the TL community that they're pro Korean, rather than anti-rape. Not to say anyone condones rape, I just find it humors the reply's in here because as mentioned before, this isn't exactly a particularity shocking incident.
That you're confused as to why this is such a big deal says more about your limited powers of cognition than it does about the significance of the issue.
This event serves to remind people of the gross reach of the US military and their curious need to have hundreds of thousands of military personnel stationed on bases across the entire world.
It's also symbolic of the nature of US dominion over the Pacific community. US soldiers stationed in Okinawa also murdered and raped Japanese women over the years. So this is not a new pattern of behavior.
It's perfectly fine that you don't find this shocking, but it's ignorant of you to imply that these events are trivial.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees.
What the hell are they teaching you in school?
Do you want to use what happened to these girls as a platform to launch an Anti-American military campaign? Because that's all is being accomplished by being here. No one is talking about the actual crime here, they're arguing if the military should even be there. Again, rape happens all over the world, every single day. The only reason this is a thread is because some people want to preach the anti american sentiment, and some want to be seen as being pro Korean. If the reason this was posted was because we all hate rape, then why isn't there a thread every day for all of the women who are rape, all over the world?
You fucking tell me.
Why the hell are my countrymen so deluded as to why the rest of the world might find reason for anti-american sentiment when American soldiers rape domestic nationals and are not held accountable?
Those blokes at Okinawa? You think 'justice' was served there?
Your nationalist bias is showing pretty clearly.
There are people saying they shouldn't be punished? Where? Putting the cart before the horse or can you see into the future?
It's pretty clear that they won't be punished adequately if history is a guide.
Let me try to get through to you:
The same thing happened in Okinawa:
The Michael Brown Okinawa attempted assault incident arose from an attempted indecent assault by U.S. Marine Corps Major Michael Brown on a Filipina bartender, V. N. (initials of victim), in Okinawa, Japan, on November 2, 2002. V.N. accused Brown of attempting to rape her and throwing her cell phone into a nearby river; Brown denied the rape charges. The victim later recanted her testimony, though prosecutors presented evidence that she had received a cash payment just before doing so.
The case received extensive attention in the Japanese media, especially in Okinawa, and the crime sparked a public debate over the U.S. military presence in Japan, the privileges of extraterritoriality, as well as the fair trial practices of Japanese legal system and the Japanese police. The case involved the Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security between the United States and Japan and the U.S.–Japan Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA).
On July 8, 2004, after a 19-month trial, Brown was convicted by a Japanese court of attempted indecent assault and destruction of private property and received a one-year suspended prison sentence. As a result of this incident and others involving crimes committed by U.S. military personnel in Japan, both countries entered into negotiations aimed at modifying the SOFA in July 2003; ultimately, however, no changes were made to the agreement. In 2005, Brown was arrested and charged with kidnapping in the United States. He was demoted and involuntarily retired from the military in 2006 and at his trial in 2009 entered a Kennedy plea, receiving probation on the felony conviction.
This is not the first time american soldiers have abused their stay in korea, and certainly won't be the last unless some drastic measures are taken. I know it's a very politically sensitive issue, but they must take every step to prevent something like this happening again. The soldiers need to be either tried in korea or court-martialed. A firm example needs to be set in order to deter any similar actions. I just hope the korean government really pressures the american counterpart to put strict measure in place.
On October 09 2011 09:37 Telcontar wrote: This is not the first time american soldiers have abused their stay in korea, and certainly won't be the last unless some drastic measures are taken. I know it's a very politically sensitive issue, but they must take every step to prevent something like this happening again. The soldiers need to be either tried in korea or court-martialed. A firm example needs to be set in order to deter any similar actions. I just hope the korean government really pressures the american counterpart to put strict measure in place.
arguements like these make me facepalm so much, my head gets sore. There should be iq test in forums where certain topics require a certain amount of iq
On October 09 2011 08:35 Klipsys wrote: I'm confused as to why this is even posted(on TL not in SK)? People get raped all the time, is this really a huge deal because they're American in Korea? And I find it curious that so many people want to voice their outrage, when every single day in America people are raped and murdered, but there's not a thread for every single one of those crimes, so why is this one unique? Mayeb I'm off base here but being a starcraft site, I can't help but think people just want to demonstrate to the TL community that they're pro Korean, rather than anti-rape. Not to say anyone condones rape, I just find it humors the reply's in here because as mentioned before, this isn't exactly a particularity shocking incident.
That you're confused as to why this is such a big deal says more about your limited powers of cognition than it does about the significance of the issue.
This event serves to remind people of the gross reach of the US military and their curious need to have hundreds of thousands of military personnel stationed on bases across the entire world.
It's also symbolic of the nature of US dominion over the Pacific community. US soldiers stationed in Okinawa also murdered and raped Japanese women over the years. So this is not a new pattern of behavior.
It's perfectly fine that you don't find this shocking, but it's ignorant of you to imply that these events are trivial.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees.
What the hell are they teaching you in school?
Do you want to use what happened to these girls as a platform to launch an Anti-American military campaign? Because that's all is being accomplished by being here. No one is talking about the actual crime here, they're arguing if the military should even be there. Again, rape happens all over the world, every single day. The only reason this is a thread is because some people want to preach the anti american sentiment, and some want to be seen as being pro Korean. If the reason this was posted was because we all hate rape, then why isn't there a thread every day for all of the women who are rape, all over the world?
You fucking tell me.
Why the hell are my countrymen so deluded as to why the rest of the world might find reason for anti-american sentiment when American soldiers rape domestic nationals and are not held accountable?
Those blokes at Okinawa? You think 'justice' was served there?
Your nationalist bias is showing pretty clearly.
I have no nationalistic bias. My brother, as I have stated, was one of the District Commanders of the Military Police in Seoul. He handled cases such as this and I can tell you, these incidences are rare, and the perpetrators do not go unpunished by the military even if they are released, as long as there is sufficient evidence to confirm their guilt(which there is, in this case).
On October 09 2011 08:35 Klipsys wrote: I'm confused as to why this is even posted(on TL not in SK)? People get raped all the time, is this really a huge deal because they're American in Korea? And I find it curious that so many people want to voice their outrage, when every single day in America people are raped and murdered, but there's not a thread for every single one of those crimes, so why is this one unique? Mayeb I'm off base here but being a starcraft site, I can't help but think people just want to demonstrate to the TL community that they're pro Korean, rather than anti-rape. Not to say anyone condones rape, I just find it humors the reply's in here because as mentioned before, this isn't exactly a particularity shocking incident.
That you're confused as to why this is such a big deal says more about your limited powers of cognition than it does about the significance of the issue.
This event serves to remind people of the gross reach of the US military and their curious need to have hundreds of thousands of military personnel stationed on bases across the entire world.
It's also symbolic of the nature of US dominion over the Pacific community. US soldiers stationed in Okinawa also murdered and raped Japanese women over the years. So this is not a new pattern of behavior.
It's perfectly fine that you don't find this shocking, but it's ignorant of you to imply that these events are trivial.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees.
What the hell are they teaching you in school?
Do you want to use what happened to these girls as a platform to launch an Anti-American military campaign? Because that's all is being accomplished by being here. No one is talking about the actual crime here, they're arguing if the military should even be there. Again, rape happens all over the world, every single day. The only reason this is a thread is because some people want to preach the anti american sentiment, and some want to be seen as being pro Korean. If the reason this was posted was because we all hate rape, then why isn't there a thread every day for all of the women who are rape, all over the world?
You fucking tell me.
Why the hell are my countrymen so deluded as to why the rest of the world might find reason for anti-american sentiment when American soldiers rape domestic nationals and are not held accountable?
Those blokes at Okinawa? You think 'justice' was served there?
Your nationalist bias is showing pretty clearly.
There are people saying they shouldn't be punished? Where? Putting the cart before the horse or can you see into the future?
It's pretty clear that they won't be punished adequately if history is a guide.
Let me try to get through to you:
The same thing happened in Okinawa:
The Michael Brown Okinawa attempted assault incident arose from an attempted indecent assault by U.S. Marine Corps Major Michael Brown on a Filipina bartender, V. N. (initials of victim), in Okinawa, Japan, on November 2, 2002. V.N. accused Brown of attempting to rape her and throwing her cell phone into a nearby river; Brown denied the rape charges. The victim later recanted her testimony, though prosecutors presented evidence that she had received a cash payment just before doing so.
The case received extensive attention in the Japanese media, especially in Okinawa, and the crime sparked a public debate over the U.S. military presence in Japan, the privileges of extraterritoriality, as well as the fair trial practices of Japanese legal system and the Japanese police. The case involved the Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security between the United States and Japan and the U.S.–Japan Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA).
On July 8, 2004, after a 19-month trial, Brown was convicted by a Japanese court of attempted indecent assault and destruction of private property and received a one-year suspended prison sentence. As a result of this incident and others involving crimes committed by U.S. military personnel in Japan, both countries entered into negotiations aimed at modifying the SOFA in July 2003; ultimately, however, no changes were made to the agreement. In 2005, Brown was arrested and charged with kidnapping in the United States. He was demoted and involuntarily retired from the military in 2006 and at his trial in 2009 entered a Kennedy plea, receiving probation on the felony conviction.
Does that sound like justice to you?
That sounds like...A. WHOLE.SEPARATE.INCIDENT.
I seriously don't understand where you're going with this.
On October 09 2011 08:35 Klipsys wrote: I'm confused as to why this is even posted(on TL not in SK)? People get raped all the time, is this really a huge deal because they're American in Korea? And I find it curious that so many people want to voice their outrage, when every single day in America people are raped and murdered, but there's not a thread for every single one of those crimes, so why is this one unique? Mayeb I'm off base here but being a starcraft site, I can't help but think people just want to demonstrate to the TL community that they're pro Korean, rather than anti-rape. Not to say anyone condones rape, I just find it humors the reply's in here because as mentioned before, this isn't exactly a particularity shocking incident.
That you're confused as to why this is such a big deal says more about your limited powers of cognition than it does about the significance of the issue.
This event serves to remind people of the gross reach of the US military and their curious need to have hundreds of thousands of military personnel stationed on bases across the entire world.
It's also symbolic of the nature of US dominion over the Pacific community. US soldiers stationed in Okinawa also murdered and raped Japanese women over the years. So this is not a new pattern of behavior.
It's perfectly fine that you don't find this shocking, but it's ignorant of you to imply that these events are trivial.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees.
What the hell are they teaching you in school?
Do you want to use what happened to these girls as a platform to launch an Anti-American military campaign? Because that's all is being accomplished by being here. No one is talking about the actual crime here, they're arguing if the military should even be there. Again, rape happens all over the world, every single day. The only reason this is a thread is because some people want to preach the anti american sentiment, and some want to be seen as being pro Korean. If the reason this was posted was because we all hate rape, then why isn't there a thread every day for all of the women who are rape, all over the world?
You fucking tell me.
Why the hell are my countrymen so deluded as to why the rest of the world might find reason for anti-american sentiment when American soldiers rape domestic nationals and are not held accountable?
Those blokes at Okinawa? You think 'justice' was served there?
Your nationalist bias is showing pretty clearly.
There are people saying they shouldn't be punished? Where? Putting the cart before the horse or can you see into the future?
It's pretty clear that they won't be punished adequately if history is a guide.
Let me try to get through to you:
The same thing happened in Okinawa:
The Michael Brown Okinawa attempted assault incident arose from an attempted indecent assault by U.S. Marine Corps Major Michael Brown on a Filipina bartender, V. N. (initials of victim), in Okinawa, Japan, on November 2, 2002. V.N. accused Brown of attempting to rape her and throwing her cell phone into a nearby river; Brown denied the rape charges. The victim later recanted her testimony, though prosecutors presented evidence that she had received a cash payment just before doing so.
The case received extensive attention in the Japanese media, especially in Okinawa, and the crime sparked a public debate over the U.S. military presence in Japan, the privileges of extraterritoriality, as well as the fair trial practices of Japanese legal system and the Japanese police. The case involved the Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security between the United States and Japan and the U.S.–Japan Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA).
On July 8, 2004, after a 19-month trial, Brown was convicted by a Japanese court of attempted indecent assault and destruction of private property and received a one-year suspended prison sentence. As a result of this incident and others involving crimes committed by U.S. military personnel in Japan, both countries entered into negotiations aimed at modifying the SOFA in July 2003; ultimately, however, no changes were made to the agreement. In 2005, Brown was arrested and charged with kidnapping in the United States. He was demoted and involuntarily retired from the military in 2006 and at his trial in 2009 entered a Kennedy plea, receiving probation on the felony conviction.
Does that sound like justice to you?
Is this the part where I explain that a single incident doesn't prove, well, much of anything? Yesterday the Brewers won their game. I guess that means next year they'll win if they're in a similar situation.
Do I think justice will be served? No, but that's only because the "justice" some people have called for is chemical castration and other ludicrous assessments. There are emotions and short of execution of these individuals, there will be upset people.
On October 09 2011 08:35 Klipsys wrote: I'm confused as to why this is even posted(on TL not in SK)? People get raped all the time, is this really a huge deal because they're American in Korea? And I find it curious that so many people want to voice their outrage, when every single day in America people are raped and murdered, but there's not a thread for every single one of those crimes, so why is this one unique? Mayeb I'm off base here but being a starcraft site, I can't help but think people just want to demonstrate to the TL community that they're pro Korean, rather than anti-rape. Not to say anyone condones rape, I just find it humors the reply's in here because as mentioned before, this isn't exactly a particularity shocking incident.
That you're confused as to why this is such a big deal says more about your limited powers of cognition than it does about the significance of the issue.
This event serves to remind people of the gross reach of the US military and their curious need to have hundreds of thousands of military personnel stationed on bases across the entire world.
It's also symbolic of the nature of US dominion over the Pacific community. US soldiers stationed in Okinawa also murdered and raped Japanese women over the years. So this is not a new pattern of behavior.
It's perfectly fine that you don't find this shocking, but it's ignorant of you to imply that these events are trivial.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees.
What the hell are they teaching you in school?
Do you want to use what happened to these girls as a platform to launch an Anti-American military campaign? Because that's all is being accomplished by being here. No one is talking about the actual crime here, they're arguing if the military should even be there. Again, rape happens all over the world, every single day. The only reason this is a thread is because some people want to preach the anti american sentiment, and some want to be seen as being pro Korean. If the reason this was posted was because we all hate rape, then why isn't there a thread every day for all of the women who are rape, all over the world?
You fucking tell me.
Why the hell are my countrymen so deluded as to why the rest of the world might find reason for anti-american sentiment when American soldiers rape domestic nationals and are not held accountable?
Those blokes at Okinawa? You think 'justice' was served there?
Your nationalist bias is showing pretty clearly.
I have no nationalistic bias. My brother, as I have stated, was one of the District Commanders of the Military Police in Seoul. He handled cases such as this and I can tell you, these incidences are rare, and the perpetrators do not go unpunished by the military even if they are released, as long as there is sufficient evidence to confirm their guilt(which there is, in this case).
I'm one hundred percent positive that even your anecdotal evidence will confirm that the 'punishments' are a joke and magnitudes less severe than those dealt to civilians.
On October 09 2011 08:35 Klipsys wrote: I'm confused as to why this is even posted(on TL not in SK)? People get raped all the time, is this really a huge deal because they're American in Korea? And I find it curious that so many people want to voice their outrage, when every single day in America people are raped and murdered, but there's not a thread for every single one of those crimes, so why is this one unique? Mayeb I'm off base here but being a starcraft site, I can't help but think people just want to demonstrate to the TL community that they're pro Korean, rather than anti-rape. Not to say anyone condones rape, I just find it humors the reply's in here because as mentioned before, this isn't exactly a particularity shocking incident.
That you're confused as to why this is such a big deal says more about your limited powers of cognition than it does about the significance of the issue.
This event serves to remind people of the gross reach of the US military and their curious need to have hundreds of thousands of military personnel stationed on bases across the entire world.
It's also symbolic of the nature of US dominion over the Pacific community. US soldiers stationed in Okinawa also murdered and raped Japanese women over the years. So this is not a new pattern of behavior.
It's perfectly fine that you don't find this shocking, but it's ignorant of you to imply that these events are trivial.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees.
What the hell are they teaching you in school?
Do you want to use what happened to these girls as a platform to launch an Anti-American military campaign? Because that's all is being accomplished by being here. No one is talking about the actual crime here, they're arguing if the military should even be there. Again, rape happens all over the world, every single day. The only reason this is a thread is because some people want to preach the anti american sentiment, and some want to be seen as being pro Korean. If the reason this was posted was because we all hate rape, then why isn't there a thread every day for all of the women who are rape, all over the world?
You fucking tell me.
Why the hell are my countrymen so deluded as to why the rest of the world might find reason for anti-american sentiment when American soldiers rape domestic nationals and are not held accountable?
Those blokes at Okinawa? You think 'justice' was served there?
Your nationalist bias is showing pretty clearly.
Did you just say "not held accountable?" THERE BEING CHARGED WITH RAPE! (IF THEY'RE EVEN FOUND GUILTY) Do you think the US is going to PREVENT them from being charged and tried? FUCK NO. How stupid do you think the US military is? And I don't care about anti american sentiment. I care when people USE THE TRAGEDY OF OTHERS TO FURTHER THEIR OWN AGENDA.
Even better, if they're found guilty of rape in the US Military, it makes them incapable of doing their job, and they receive a dishonorable discharge, which means zero benefits and jack shit for jobs.
There's also worse punishment available in the UCMJ for rape than in typical law.
Because one time someone got away with something, that is going to happen every time regardless. If you even bother to read what you posted, there was questionable investigation done by BOTH sides.
On October 09 2011 08:35 Klipsys wrote: I'm confused as to why this is even posted(on TL not in SK)? People get raped all the time, is this really a huge deal because they're American in Korea? And I find it curious that so many people want to voice their outrage, when every single day in America people are raped and murdered, but there's not a thread for every single one of those crimes, so why is this one unique? Mayeb I'm off base here but being a starcraft site, I can't help but think people just want to demonstrate to the TL community that they're pro Korean, rather than anti-rape. Not to say anyone condones rape, I just find it humors the reply's in here because as mentioned before, this isn't exactly a particularity shocking incident.
That you're confused as to why this is such a big deal says more about your limited powers of cognition than it does about the significance of the issue.
This event serves to remind people of the gross reach of the US military and their curious need to have hundreds of thousands of military personnel stationed on bases across the entire world.
It's also symbolic of the nature of US dominion over the Pacific community. US soldiers stationed in Okinawa also murdered and raped Japanese women over the years. So this is not a new pattern of behavior.
It's perfectly fine that you don't find this shocking, but it's ignorant of you to imply that these events are trivial.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees.
What the hell are they teaching you in school?
Do you want to use what happened to these girls as a platform to launch an Anti-American military campaign? Because that's all is being accomplished by being here. No one is talking about the actual crime here, they're arguing if the military should even be there. Again, rape happens all over the world, every single day. The only reason this is a thread is because some people want to preach the anti american sentiment, and some want to be seen as being pro Korean. If the reason this was posted was because we all hate rape, then why isn't there a thread every day for all of the women who are rape, all over the world?
You fucking tell me.
Why the hell are my countrymen so deluded as to why the rest of the world might find reason for anti-american sentiment when American soldiers rape domestic nationals and are not held accountable?
Those blokes at Okinawa? You think 'justice' was served there?
Your nationalist bias is showing pretty clearly.
I have no nationalistic bias. My brother, as I have stated, was one of the District Commanders of the Military Police in Seoul. He handled cases such as this and I can tell you, these incidences are rare, and the perpetrators do not go unpunished by the military even if they are released, as long as there is sufficient evidence to confirm their guilt(which there is, in this case).
I'm one hundred percent positive that even your anecdotal evidence will confirm that the 'punishments' are a joke and magnitudes less severe than those dealt to civilians.
lol, Jesus Christ. Isn't there a protest in NYC you should be heading to?
On October 09 2011 08:35 Klipsys wrote: I'm confused as to why this is even posted(on TL not in SK)? People get raped all the time, is this really a huge deal because they're American in Korea? And I find it curious that so many people want to voice their outrage, when every single day in America people are raped and murdered, but there's not a thread for every single one of those crimes, so why is this one unique? Mayeb I'm off base here but being a starcraft site, I can't help but think people just want to demonstrate to the TL community that they're pro Korean, rather than anti-rape. Not to say anyone condones rape, I just find it humors the reply's in here because as mentioned before, this isn't exactly a particularity shocking incident.
That you're confused as to why this is such a big deal says more about your limited powers of cognition than it does about the significance of the issue.
This event serves to remind people of the gross reach of the US military and their curious need to have hundreds of thousands of military personnel stationed on bases across the entire world.
It's also symbolic of the nature of US dominion over the Pacific community. US soldiers stationed in Okinawa also murdered and raped Japanese women over the years. So this is not a new pattern of behavior.
It's perfectly fine that you don't find this shocking, but it's ignorant of you to imply that these events are trivial.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees.
What the hell are they teaching you in school?
Do you want to use what happened to these girls as a platform to launch an Anti-American military campaign? Because that's all is being accomplished by being here. No one is talking about the actual crime here, they're arguing if the military should even be there. Again, rape happens all over the world, every single day. The only reason this is a thread is because some people want to preach the anti american sentiment, and some want to be seen as being pro Korean. If the reason this was posted was because we all hate rape, then why isn't there a thread every day for all of the women who are rape, all over the world?
You fucking tell me.
Why the hell are my countrymen so deluded as to why the rest of the world might find reason for anti-american sentiment when American soldiers rape domestic nationals and are not held accountable?
Those blokes at Okinawa? You think 'justice' was served there?
Your nationalist bias is showing pretty clearly.
There are people saying they shouldn't be punished? Where? Putting the cart before the horse or can you see into the future?
It's pretty clear that they won't be punished adequately if history is a guide.
Let me try to get through to you:
The same thing happened in Okinawa:
The Michael Brown Okinawa attempted assault incident arose from an attempted indecent assault by U.S. Marine Corps Major Michael Brown on a Filipina bartender, V. N. (initials of victim), in Okinawa, Japan, on November 2, 2002. V.N. accused Brown of attempting to rape her and throwing her cell phone into a nearby river; Brown denied the rape charges. The victim later recanted her testimony, though prosecutors presented evidence that she had received a cash payment just before doing so.
The case received extensive attention in the Japanese media, especially in Okinawa, and the crime sparked a public debate over the U.S. military presence in Japan, the privileges of extraterritoriality, as well as the fair trial practices of Japanese legal system and the Japanese police. The case involved the Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security between the United States and Japan and the U.S.–Japan Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA).
On July 8, 2004, after a 19-month trial, Brown was convicted by a Japanese court of attempted indecent assault and destruction of private property and received a one-year suspended prison sentence. As a result of this incident and others involving crimes committed by U.S. military personnel in Japan, both countries entered into negotiations aimed at modifying the SOFA in July 2003; ultimately, however, no changes were made to the agreement. In 2005, Brown was arrested and charged with kidnapping in the United States. He was demoted and involuntarily retired from the military in 2006 and at his trial in 2009 entered a Kennedy plea, receiving probation on the felony conviction.
Does that sound like justice to you?
Probation?
What is sounds like to me is the victim decided not to pursue charges (if she really did want justice then she would not have recanted her testimony, assuming he raped her), and that Brown was acquitted of the rape charge.
Fun news. US Soldiers can be executed if they're found guilty by court martial. Oh, and the military tends to aim more for guilty until proven innocent.
On October 09 2011 08:35 Klipsys wrote: I'm confused as to why this is even posted(on TL not in SK)? People get raped all the time, is this really a huge deal because they're American in Korea? And I find it curious that so many people want to voice their outrage, when every single day in America people are raped and murdered, but there's not a thread for every single one of those crimes, so why is this one unique? Mayeb I'm off base here but being a starcraft site, I can't help but think people just want to demonstrate to the TL community that they're pro Korean, rather than anti-rape. Not to say anyone condones rape, I just find it humors the reply's in here because as mentioned before, this isn't exactly a particularity shocking incident.
That you're confused as to why this is such a big deal says more about your limited powers of cognition than it does about the significance of the issue.
This event serves to remind people of the gross reach of the US military and their curious need to have hundreds of thousands of military personnel stationed on bases across the entire world.
It's also symbolic of the nature of US dominion over the Pacific community. US soldiers stationed in Okinawa also murdered and raped Japanese women over the years. So this is not a new pattern of behavior.
It's perfectly fine that you don't find this shocking, but it's ignorant of you to imply that these events are trivial.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees.
What the hell are they teaching you in school?
Do you want to use what happened to these girls as a platform to launch an Anti-American military campaign? Because that's all is being accomplished by being here. No one is talking about the actual crime here, they're arguing if the military should even be there. Again, rape happens all over the world, every single day. The only reason this is a thread is because some people want to preach the anti american sentiment, and some want to be seen as being pro Korean. If the reason this was posted was because we all hate rape, then why isn't there a thread every day for all of the women who are rape, all over the world?
You fucking tell me.
Why the hell are my countrymen so deluded as to why the rest of the world might find reason for anti-american sentiment when American soldiers rape domestic nationals and are not held accountable?
Those blokes at Okinawa? You think 'justice' was served there?
Your nationalist bias is showing pretty clearly.
There are people saying they shouldn't be punished? Where? Putting the cart before the horse or can you see into the future?
It's pretty clear that they won't be punished adequately if history is a guide.
Let me try to get through to you:
The same thing happened in Okinawa:
The Michael Brown Okinawa attempted assault incident arose from an attempted indecent assault by U.S. Marine Corps Major Michael Brown on a Filipina bartender, V. N. (initials of victim), in Okinawa, Japan, on November 2, 2002. V.N. accused Brown of attempting to rape her and throwing her cell phone into a nearby river; Brown denied the rape charges. The victim later recanted her testimony, though prosecutors presented evidence that she had received a cash payment just before doing so.
The case received extensive attention in the Japanese media, especially in Okinawa, and the crime sparked a public debate over the U.S. military presence in Japan, the privileges of extraterritoriality, as well as the fair trial practices of Japanese legal system and the Japanese police. The case involved the Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security between the United States and Japan and the U.S.–Japan Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA).
On July 8, 2004, after a 19-month trial, Brown was convicted by a Japanese court of attempted indecent assault and destruction of private property and received a one-year suspended prison sentence. As a result of this incident and others involving crimes committed by U.S. military personnel in Japan, both countries entered into negotiations aimed at modifying the SOFA in July 2003; ultimately, however, no changes were made to the agreement. In 2005, Brown was arrested and charged with kidnapping in the United States. He was demoted and involuntarily retired from the military in 2006 and at his trial in 2009 entered a Kennedy plea, receiving probation on the felony conviction.
Does that sound like justice to you?
Is this the part where I explain that a single incident doesn't prove, well, much of anything? Yesterday the Brewers won their game. I guess that means next year they'll win if they're in a similar situation.
Do I think justice will be served? No, but that's only because the "justice" some people have called for is chemical castration and other ludicrous assessments. There are emotions and short of execution of these individuals, there will be upset people.
I establish a pattern of behavior regarding the handling these types of events, and you dismiss them as 'single incidents'.
On October 09 2011 08:35 Klipsys wrote: I'm confused as to why this is even posted(on TL not in SK)? People get raped all the time, is this really a huge deal because they're American in Korea? And I find it curious that so many people want to voice their outrage, when every single day in America people are raped and murdered, but there's not a thread for every single one of those crimes, so why is this one unique? Mayeb I'm off base here but being a starcraft site, I can't help but think people just want to demonstrate to the TL community that they're pro Korean, rather than anti-rape. Not to say anyone condones rape, I just find it humors the reply's in here because as mentioned before, this isn't exactly a particularity shocking incident.
That you're confused as to why this is such a big deal says more about your limited powers of cognition than it does about the significance of the issue.
This event serves to remind people of the gross reach of the US military and their curious need to have hundreds of thousands of military personnel stationed on bases across the entire world.
It's also symbolic of the nature of US dominion over the Pacific community. US soldiers stationed in Okinawa also murdered and raped Japanese women over the years. So this is not a new pattern of behavior.
It's perfectly fine that you don't find this shocking, but it's ignorant of you to imply that these events are trivial.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees.
What the hell are they teaching you in school?
Do you want to use what happened to these girls as a platform to launch an Anti-American military campaign? Because that's all is being accomplished by being here. No one is talking about the actual crime here, they're arguing if the military should even be there. Again, rape happens all over the world, every single day. The only reason this is a thread is because some people want to preach the anti american sentiment, and some want to be seen as being pro Korean. If the reason this was posted was because we all hate rape, then why isn't there a thread every day for all of the women who are rape, all over the world?
You fucking tell me.
Why the hell are my countrymen so deluded as to why the rest of the world might find reason for anti-american sentiment when American soldiers rape domestic nationals and are not held accountable?
Those blokes at Okinawa? You think 'justice' was served there?
Your nationalist bias is showing pretty clearly.
I have no nationalistic bias. My brother, as I have stated, was one of the District Commanders of the Military Police in Seoul. He handled cases such as this and I can tell you, these incidences are rare, and the perpetrators do not go unpunished by the military even if they are released, as long as there is sufficient evidence to confirm their guilt(which there is, in this case).
I'm one hundred percent positive that even your anecdotal evidence will confirm that the 'punishments' are a joke and magnitudes less severe than those dealt to civilians.
lol, Jesus Christ. Isn't there a protest in NYC you should be heading to?
I am the one percent.
I'm sorry you immediately assume than anyone who calls your out on your bullshit is a bleeding-heart liberal.
I'm also probably more conservative and pro-hegemony than you are. I'm just intellectually honest about my arguments.
On October 09 2011 08:35 Klipsys wrote: I'm confused as to why this is even posted(on TL not in SK)? People get raped all the time, is this really a huge deal because they're American in Korea? And I find it curious that so many people want to voice their outrage, when every single day in America people are raped and murdered, but there's not a thread for every single one of those crimes, so why is this one unique? Mayeb I'm off base here but being a starcraft site, I can't help but think people just want to demonstrate to the TL community that they're pro Korean, rather than anti-rape. Not to say anyone condones rape, I just find it humors the reply's in here because as mentioned before, this isn't exactly a particularity shocking incident.
That you're confused as to why this is such a big deal says more about your limited powers of cognition than it does about the significance of the issue.
This event serves to remind people of the gross reach of the US military and their curious need to have hundreds of thousands of military personnel stationed on bases across the entire world.
It's also symbolic of the nature of US dominion over the Pacific community. US soldiers stationed in Okinawa also murdered and raped Japanese women over the years. So this is not a new pattern of behavior.
It's perfectly fine that you don't find this shocking, but it's ignorant of you to imply that these events are trivial.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees.
What the hell are they teaching you in school?
Do you want to use what happened to these girls as a platform to launch an Anti-American military campaign? Because that's all is being accomplished by being here. No one is talking about the actual crime here, they're arguing if the military should even be there. Again, rape happens all over the world, every single day. The only reason this is a thread is because some people want to preach the anti american sentiment, and some want to be seen as being pro Korean. If the reason this was posted was because we all hate rape, then why isn't there a thread every day for all of the women who are rape, all over the world?
You fucking tell me.
Why the hell are my countrymen so deluded as to why the rest of the world might find reason for anti-american sentiment when American soldiers rape domestic nationals and are not held accountable?
Those blokes at Okinawa? You think 'justice' was served there?
Your nationalist bias is showing pretty clearly.
There are people saying they shouldn't be punished? Where? Putting the cart before the horse or can you see into the future?
It's pretty clear that they won't be punished adequately if history is a guide.
Let me try to get through to you:
The same thing happened in Okinawa:
The Michael Brown Okinawa attempted assault incident arose from an attempted indecent assault by U.S. Marine Corps Major Michael Brown on a Filipina bartender, V. N. (initials of victim), in Okinawa, Japan, on November 2, 2002. V.N. accused Brown of attempting to rape her and throwing her cell phone into a nearby river; Brown denied the rape charges. The victim later recanted her testimony, though prosecutors presented evidence that she had received a cash payment just before doing so.
The case received extensive attention in the Japanese media, especially in Okinawa, and the crime sparked a public debate over the U.S. military presence in Japan, the privileges of extraterritoriality, as well as the fair trial practices of Japanese legal system and the Japanese police. The case involved the Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security between the United States and Japan and the U.S.–Japan Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA).
On July 8, 2004, after a 19-month trial, Brown was convicted by a Japanese court of attempted indecent assault and destruction of private property and received a one-year suspended prison sentence. As a result of this incident and others involving crimes committed by U.S. military personnel in Japan, both countries entered into negotiations aimed at modifying the SOFA in July 2003; ultimately, however, no changes were made to the agreement. In 2005, Brown was arrested and charged with kidnapping in the United States. He was demoted and involuntarily retired from the military in 2006 and at his trial in 2009 entered a Kennedy plea, receiving probation on the felony conviction.
Does that sound like justice to you?
Is this the part where I explain that a single incident doesn't prove, well, much of anything? Yesterday the Brewers won their game. I guess that means next year they'll win if they're in a similar situation.
Do I think justice will be served? No, but that's only because the "justice" some people have called for is chemical castration and other ludicrous assessments. There are emotions and short of execution of these individuals, there will be upset people.
I establish a pattern of behavior regarding the handling these types of events, and you dismiss them as 'single incidents'.
Can you get more ridiculous?
All of those military prisons don't actually exist, They're actually made of cardboard and don't house US soldiers. They've never been found guilty of anything. Ever.
On October 09 2011 08:35 Klipsys wrote: I'm confused as to why this is even posted(on TL not in SK)? People get raped all the time, is this really a huge deal because they're American in Korea? And I find it curious that so many people want to voice their outrage, when every single day in America people are raped and murdered, but there's not a thread for every single one of those crimes, so why is this one unique? Mayeb I'm off base here but being a starcraft site, I can't help but think people just want to demonstrate to the TL community that they're pro Korean, rather than anti-rape. Not to say anyone condones rape, I just find it humors the reply's in here because as mentioned before, this isn't exactly a particularity shocking incident.
That you're confused as to why this is such a big deal says more about your limited powers of cognition than it does about the significance of the issue.
This event serves to remind people of the gross reach of the US military and their curious need to have hundreds of thousands of military personnel stationed on bases across the entire world.
It's also symbolic of the nature of US dominion over the Pacific community. US soldiers stationed in Okinawa also murdered and raped Japanese women over the years. So this is not a new pattern of behavior.
It's perfectly fine that you don't find this shocking, but it's ignorant of you to imply that these events are trivial.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees.
What the hell are they teaching you in school?
Do you want to use what happened to these girls as a platform to launch an Anti-American military campaign? Because that's all is being accomplished by being here. No one is talking about the actual crime here, they're arguing if the military should even be there. Again, rape happens all over the world, every single day. The only reason this is a thread is because some people want to preach the anti american sentiment, and some want to be seen as being pro Korean. If the reason this was posted was because we all hate rape, then why isn't there a thread every day for all of the women who are rape, all over the world?
You fucking tell me.
Why the hell are my countrymen so deluded as to why the rest of the world might find reason for anti-american sentiment when American soldiers rape domestic nationals and are not held accountable?
Those blokes at Okinawa? You think 'justice' was served there?
Your nationalist bias is showing pretty clearly.
I have no nationalistic bias. My brother, as I have stated, was one of the District Commanders of the Military Police in Seoul. He handled cases such as this and I can tell you, these incidences are rare, and the perpetrators do not go unpunished by the military even if they are released, as long as there is sufficient evidence to confirm their guilt(which there is, in this case).
I'm one hundred percent positive that even your anecdotal evidence will confirm that the 'punishments' are a joke and magnitudes less severe than those dealt to civilians.
I'm sure that the testimony of someone I've known my entire life is anecdotal, who just happened to be one of the police commanders in the army. I'm not going to give his name, as that would be a gross irresponsibility on my part(not to mention that I would consequently give my own), but I truly find that he is a reliable source.
I am not sure as to why you are so sure of your position, as you certainly feel about mine. Can we not agree to disagree in this regard?
On October 09 2011 08:35 Klipsys wrote: I'm confused as to why this is even posted(on TL not in SK)? People get raped all the time, is this really a huge deal because they're American in Korea? And I find it curious that so many people want to voice their outrage, when every single day in America people are raped and murdered, but there's not a thread for every single one of those crimes, so why is this one unique? Mayeb I'm off base here but being a starcraft site, I can't help but think people just want to demonstrate to the TL community that they're pro Korean, rather than anti-rape. Not to say anyone condones rape, I just find it humors the reply's in here because as mentioned before, this isn't exactly a particularity shocking incident.
That you're confused as to why this is such a big deal says more about your limited powers of cognition than it does about the significance of the issue.
This event serves to remind people of the gross reach of the US military and their curious need to have hundreds of thousands of military personnel stationed on bases across the entire world.
It's also symbolic of the nature of US dominion over the Pacific community. US soldiers stationed in Okinawa also murdered and raped Japanese women over the years. So this is not a new pattern of behavior.
It's perfectly fine that you don't find this shocking, but it's ignorant of you to imply that these events are trivial.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees.
What the hell are they teaching you in school?
Do you want to use what happened to these girls as a platform to launch an Anti-American military campaign? Because that's all is being accomplished by being here. No one is talking about the actual crime here, they're arguing if the military should even be there. Again, rape happens all over the world, every single day. The only reason this is a thread is because some people want to preach the anti american sentiment, and some want to be seen as being pro Korean. If the reason this was posted was because we all hate rape, then why isn't there a thread every day for all of the women who are rape, all over the world?
You fucking tell me.
Why the hell are my countrymen so deluded as to why the rest of the world might find reason for anti-american sentiment when American soldiers rape domestic nationals and are not held accountable?
Those blokes at Okinawa? You think 'justice' was served there?
Your nationalist bias is showing pretty clearly.
There are people saying they shouldn't be punished? Where? Putting the cart before the horse or can you see into the future?
It's pretty clear that they won't be punished adequately if history is a guide.
Let me try to get through to you:
The same thing happened in Okinawa:
The Michael Brown Okinawa attempted assault incident arose from an attempted indecent assault by U.S. Marine Corps Major Michael Brown on a Filipina bartender, V. N. (initials of victim), in Okinawa, Japan, on November 2, 2002. V.N. accused Brown of attempting to rape her and throwing her cell phone into a nearby river; Brown denied the rape charges. The victim later recanted her testimony, though prosecutors presented evidence that she had received a cash payment just before doing so.
The case received extensive attention in the Japanese media, especially in Okinawa, and the crime sparked a public debate over the U.S. military presence in Japan, the privileges of extraterritoriality, as well as the fair trial practices of Japanese legal system and the Japanese police. The case involved the Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security between the United States and Japan and the U.S.–Japan Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA).
On July 8, 2004, after a 19-month trial, Brown was convicted by a Japanese court of attempted indecent assault and destruction of private property and received a one-year suspended prison sentence. As a result of this incident and others involving crimes committed by U.S. military personnel in Japan, both countries entered into negotiations aimed at modifying the SOFA in July 2003; ultimately, however, no changes were made to the agreement. In 2005, Brown was arrested and charged with kidnapping in the United States. He was demoted and involuntarily retired from the military in 2006 and at his trial in 2009 entered a Kennedy plea, receiving probation on the felony conviction.
Does that sound like justice to you?
Is this the part where I explain that a single incident doesn't prove, well, much of anything? Yesterday the Brewers won their game. I guess that means next year they'll win if they're in a similar situation.
Do I think justice will be served? No, but that's only because the "justice" some people have called for is chemical castration and other ludicrous assessments. There are emotions and short of execution of these individuals, there will be upset people.
I establish a pattern of behavior regarding the handling these types of events, and you dismiss them as 'single incidents'.
Can you get more ridiculous?
You have a handful of incident that may or may not prove your point. Whats your sample size? What about the cases that don't support your side at all? How many rape cases of US personal overseas are covered up or poorly investigated? By the way your writing, your imply the US is actively protecting rapist. That's dumber than 9/11 conspiracy's, because even those have some semblance of fact.
On October 09 2011 08:35 Klipsys wrote: I'm confused as to why this is even posted(on TL not in SK)? People get raped all the time, is this really a huge deal because they're American in Korea? And I find it curious that so many people want to voice their outrage, when every single day in America people are raped and murdered, but there's not a thread for every single one of those crimes, so why is this one unique? Mayeb I'm off base here but being a starcraft site, I can't help but think people just want to demonstrate to the TL community that they're pro Korean, rather than anti-rape. Not to say anyone condones rape, I just find it humors the reply's in here because as mentioned before, this isn't exactly a particularity shocking incident.
That you're confused as to why this is such a big deal says more about your limited powers of cognition than it does about the significance of the issue.
This event serves to remind people of the gross reach of the US military and their curious need to have hundreds of thousands of military personnel stationed on bases across the entire world.
It's also symbolic of the nature of US dominion over the Pacific community. US soldiers stationed in Okinawa also murdered and raped Japanese women over the years. So this is not a new pattern of behavior.
It's perfectly fine that you don't find this shocking, but it's ignorant of you to imply that these events are trivial.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees.
What the hell are they teaching you in school?
Do you want to use what happened to these girls as a platform to launch an Anti-American military campaign? Because that's all is being accomplished by being here. No one is talking about the actual crime here, they're arguing if the military should even be there. Again, rape happens all over the world, every single day. The only reason this is a thread is because some people want to preach the anti american sentiment, and some want to be seen as being pro Korean. If the reason this was posted was because we all hate rape, then why isn't there a thread every day for all of the women who are rape, all over the world?
You fucking tell me.
Why the hell are my countrymen so deluded as to why the rest of the world might find reason for anti-american sentiment when American soldiers rape domestic nationals and are not held accountable?
Those blokes at Okinawa? You think 'justice' was served there?
Your nationalist bias is showing pretty clearly.
I have no nationalistic bias. My brother, as I have stated, was one of the District Commanders of the Military Police in Seoul. He handled cases such as this and I can tell you, these incidences are rare, and the perpetrators do not go unpunished by the military even if they are released, as long as there is sufficient evidence to confirm their guilt(which there is, in this case).
I'm one hundred percent positive that even your anecdotal evidence will confirm that the 'punishments' are a joke and magnitudes less severe than those dealt to civilians.
lol, Jesus Christ. Isn't there a protest in NYC you should be heading to?
I am the one percent.
I'm sorry you immediately assume than anyone who calls your out on your bullshit is a bleeding-heart liberal.
I'm also probably more conservative and pro-hegemony than you are. I'm just intellectually honest about my arguments.
Calls out my bullshit!? LOL What bullshit? My opinion that the rape of two teenagers shouldn't be used to further some political position?
You're either trolling, a child, or an underdeveloped adult. I'm not quite sure which one because your posts have such a varying degree of intellect.
On October 09 2011 08:35 Klipsys wrote: I'm confused as to why this is even posted(on TL not in SK)? People get raped all the time, is this really a huge deal because they're American in Korea? And I find it curious that so many people want to voice their outrage, when every single day in America people are raped and murdered, but there's not a thread for every single one of those crimes, so why is this one unique? Mayeb I'm off base here but being a starcraft site, I can't help but think people just want to demonstrate to the TL community that they're pro Korean, rather than anti-rape. Not to say anyone condones rape, I just find it humors the reply's in here because as mentioned before, this isn't exactly a particularity shocking incident.
That you're confused as to why this is such a big deal says more about your limited powers of cognition than it does about the significance of the issue.
This event serves to remind people of the gross reach of the US military and their curious need to have hundreds of thousands of military personnel stationed on bases across the entire world.
It's also symbolic of the nature of US dominion over the Pacific community. US soldiers stationed in Okinawa also murdered and raped Japanese women over the years. So this is not a new pattern of behavior.
It's perfectly fine that you don't find this shocking, but it's ignorant of you to imply that these events are trivial.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees.
What the hell are they teaching you in school?
Do you want to use what happened to these girls as a platform to launch an Anti-American military campaign? Because that's all is being accomplished by being here. No one is talking about the actual crime here, they're arguing if the military should even be there. Again, rape happens all over the world, every single day. The only reason this is a thread is because some people want to preach the anti american sentiment, and some want to be seen as being pro Korean. If the reason this was posted was because we all hate rape, then why isn't there a thread every day for all of the women who are rape, all over the world?
You fucking tell me.
Why the hell are my countrymen so deluded as to why the rest of the world might find reason for anti-american sentiment when American soldiers rape domestic nationals and are not held accountable?
Those blokes at Okinawa? You think 'justice' was served there?
Your nationalist bias is showing pretty clearly.
I have no nationalistic bias. My brother, as I have stated, was one of the District Commanders of the Military Police in Seoul. He handled cases such as this and I can tell you, these incidences are rare, and the perpetrators do not go unpunished by the military even if they are released, as long as there is sufficient evidence to confirm their guilt(which there is, in this case).
I'm one hundred percent positive that even your anecdotal evidence will confirm that the 'punishments' are a joke and magnitudes less severe than those dealt to civilians.
lol, Jesus Christ. Isn't there a protest in NYC you should be heading to?
I am the one percent.
I'm sorry you immediately assume than anyone who calls your out on your bullshit is a bleeding-heart liberal.
I'm also probably more conservative and pro-hegemony than you are. I'm just intellectually honest about my arguments.
I would not go so far as to call another's opinion "bullshit" regardless of difference. Nor would I criticize you in such a manner.
The two ends of the spectrum are critical of US foreign policy and for it. I ascribe to to the former, yet I feel as though this situation does not warrant the attention that it has received here.
On October 09 2011 08:45 Consolidate wrote: [quote]
That you're confused as to why this is such a big deal says more about your limited powers of cognition than it does about the significance of the issue.
This event serves to remind people of the gross reach of the US military and their curious need to have hundreds of thousands of military personnel stationed on bases across the entire world.
It's also symbolic of the nature of US dominion over the Pacific community. US soldiers stationed in Okinawa also murdered and raped Japanese women over the years. So this is not a new pattern of behavior.
It's perfectly fine that you don't find this shocking, but it's ignorant of you to imply that these events are trivial.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees.
What the hell are they teaching you in school?
Do you want to use what happened to these girls as a platform to launch an Anti-American military campaign? Because that's all is being accomplished by being here. No one is talking about the actual crime here, they're arguing if the military should even be there. Again, rape happens all over the world, every single day. The only reason this is a thread is because some people want to preach the anti american sentiment, and some want to be seen as being pro Korean. If the reason this was posted was because we all hate rape, then why isn't there a thread every day for all of the women who are rape, all over the world?
You fucking tell me.
Why the hell are my countrymen so deluded as to why the rest of the world might find reason for anti-american sentiment when American soldiers rape domestic nationals and are not held accountable?
Those blokes at Okinawa? You think 'justice' was served there?
Your nationalist bias is showing pretty clearly.
I have no nationalistic bias. My brother, as I have stated, was one of the District Commanders of the Military Police in Seoul. He handled cases such as this and I can tell you, these incidences are rare, and the perpetrators do not go unpunished by the military even if they are released, as long as there is sufficient evidence to confirm their guilt(which there is, in this case).
I'm one hundred percent positive that even your anecdotal evidence will confirm that the 'punishments' are a joke and magnitudes less severe than those dealt to civilians.
lol, Jesus Christ. Isn't there a protest in NYC you should be heading to?
I am the one percent.
I'm sorry you immediately assume than anyone who calls your out on your bullshit is a bleeding-heart liberal.
I'm also probably more conservative and pro-hegemony than you are. I'm just intellectually honest about my arguments.
Calls out my bullshit!? LOL What bullshit? My opinion that the rape of two teenagers shouldn't be used to further some political position?
You're either trolling, a child, or an underdeveloped adult. I'm not quite sure which one because your posts have such a varying degree of intellect.
If you're not trying to bash America, you're clearly anti-justice, and fueling the fires of discrimination. Shame on you.
On October 09 2011 06:03 rockerman101 wrote: god its horrible that we have soldiers doing this shit
This happens in the US on our military bases too and the sad part is it usually gets swept under the rug with little more than a slap on the wrist for the offender.
On October 09 2011 08:45 Consolidate wrote: [quote]
That you're confused as to why this is such a big deal says more about your limited powers of cognition than it does about the significance of the issue.
This event serves to remind people of the gross reach of the US military and their curious need to have hundreds of thousands of military personnel stationed on bases across the entire world.
It's also symbolic of the nature of US dominion over the Pacific community. US soldiers stationed in Okinawa also murdered and raped Japanese women over the years. So this is not a new pattern of behavior.
It's perfectly fine that you don't find this shocking, but it's ignorant of you to imply that these events are trivial.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees.
What the hell are they teaching you in school?
Do you want to use what happened to these girls as a platform to launch an Anti-American military campaign? Because that's all is being accomplished by being here. No one is talking about the actual crime here, they're arguing if the military should even be there. Again, rape happens all over the world, every single day. The only reason this is a thread is because some people want to preach the anti american sentiment, and some want to be seen as being pro Korean. If the reason this was posted was because we all hate rape, then why isn't there a thread every day for all of the women who are rape, all over the world?
You fucking tell me.
Why the hell are my countrymen so deluded as to why the rest of the world might find reason for anti-american sentiment when American soldiers rape domestic nationals and are not held accountable?
Those blokes at Okinawa? You think 'justice' was served there?
Your nationalist bias is showing pretty clearly.
There are people saying they shouldn't be punished? Where? Putting the cart before the horse or can you see into the future?
It's pretty clear that they won't be punished adequately if history is a guide.
Let me try to get through to you:
The same thing happened in Okinawa:
The Michael Brown Okinawa attempted assault incident arose from an attempted indecent assault by U.S. Marine Corps Major Michael Brown on a Filipina bartender, V. N. (initials of victim), in Okinawa, Japan, on November 2, 2002. V.N. accused Brown of attempting to rape her and throwing her cell phone into a nearby river; Brown denied the rape charges. The victim later recanted her testimony, though prosecutors presented evidence that she had received a cash payment just before doing so.
The case received extensive attention in the Japanese media, especially in Okinawa, and the crime sparked a public debate over the U.S. military presence in Japan, the privileges of extraterritoriality, as well as the fair trial practices of Japanese legal system and the Japanese police. The case involved the Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security between the United States and Japan and the U.S.–Japan Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA).
On July 8, 2004, after a 19-month trial, Brown was convicted by a Japanese court of attempted indecent assault and destruction of private property and received a one-year suspended prison sentence. As a result of this incident and others involving crimes committed by U.S. military personnel in Japan, both countries entered into negotiations aimed at modifying the SOFA in July 2003; ultimately, however, no changes were made to the agreement. In 2005, Brown was arrested and charged with kidnapping in the United States. He was demoted and involuntarily retired from the military in 2006 and at his trial in 2009 entered a Kennedy plea, receiving probation on the felony conviction.
Does that sound like justice to you?
Is this the part where I explain that a single incident doesn't prove, well, much of anything? Yesterday the Brewers won their game. I guess that means next year they'll win if they're in a similar situation.
Do I think justice will be served? No, but that's only because the "justice" some people have called for is chemical castration and other ludicrous assessments. There are emotions and short of execution of these individuals, there will be upset people.
I establish a pattern of behavior regarding the handling these types of events, and you dismiss them as 'single incidents'.
Can you get more ridiculous?
You have a handful of incident that may or may not prove your point. Whats your sample size? What about the cases that don't support your side at all? How many rape cases of US personal overseas are covered up or poorly investigated? By the way your writing, your imply the US is actively protecting rapist. That's dumber than 9/11 conspiracy's, because even those have some semblance of fact.
Dumber than 9/11 conspiracy's huh.
Brilliant metaphor.
Oh yeah, that reminds me: Because 9/11 ONLY HAPPENED ONCE, there is no STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT evidence that terrorists have been trying to attack the United States these past two decades.
Please. Please, give up this line of thinking before you ruin us all.
On October 09 2011 08:35 Klipsys wrote: I'm confused as to why this is even posted(on TL not in SK)? People get raped all the time, is this really a huge deal because they're American in Korea? And I find it curious that so many people want to voice their outrage, when every single day in America people are raped and murdered, but there's not a thread for every single one of those crimes, so why is this one unique? Mayeb I'm off base here but being a starcraft site, I can't help but think people just want to demonstrate to the TL community that they're pro Korean, rather than anti-rape. Not to say anyone condones rape, I just find it humors the reply's in here because as mentioned before, this isn't exactly a particularity shocking incident.
That you're confused as to why this is such a big deal says more about your limited powers of cognition than it does about the significance of the issue.
This event serves to remind people of the gross reach of the US military and their curious need to have hundreds of thousands of military personnel stationed on bases across the entire world.
It's also symbolic of the nature of US dominion over the Pacific community. US soldiers stationed in Okinawa also murdered and raped Japanese women over the years. So this is not a new pattern of behavior.
It's perfectly fine that you don't find this shocking, but it's ignorant of you to imply that these events are trivial.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees.
What the hell are they teaching you in school?
Do you want to use what happened to these girls as a platform to launch an Anti-American military campaign? Because that's all is being accomplished by being here. No one is talking about the actual crime here, they're arguing if the military should even be there. Again, rape happens all over the world, every single day. The only reason this is a thread is because some people want to preach the anti american sentiment, and some want to be seen as being pro Korean. If the reason this was posted was because we all hate rape, then why isn't there a thread every day for all of the women who are rape, all over the world?
You fucking tell me.
Why the hell are my countrymen so deluded as to why the rest of the world might find reason for anti-american sentiment when American soldiers rape domestic nationals and are not held accountable?
Those blokes at Okinawa? You think 'justice' was served there?
Your nationalist bias is showing pretty clearly.
There are people saying they shouldn't be punished? Where? Putting the cart before the horse or can you see into the future?
It's pretty clear that they won't be punished adequately if history is a guide.
Let me try to get through to you:
The same thing happened in Okinawa:
The Michael Brown Okinawa attempted assault incident arose from an attempted indecent assault by U.S. Marine Corps Major Michael Brown on a Filipina bartender, V. N. (initials of victim), in Okinawa, Japan, on November 2, 2002. V.N. accused Brown of attempting to rape her and throwing her cell phone into a nearby river; Brown denied the rape charges. The victim later recanted her testimony, though prosecutors presented evidence that she had received a cash payment just before doing so.
The case received extensive attention in the Japanese media, especially in Okinawa, and the crime sparked a public debate over the U.S. military presence in Japan, the privileges of extraterritoriality, as well as the fair trial practices of Japanese legal system and the Japanese police. The case involved the Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security between the United States and Japan and the U.S.–Japan Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA).
On July 8, 2004, after a 19-month trial, Brown was convicted by a Japanese court of attempted indecent assault and destruction of private property and received a one-year suspended prison sentence. As a result of this incident and others involving crimes committed by U.S. military personnel in Japan, both countries entered into negotiations aimed at modifying the SOFA in July 2003; ultimately, however, no changes were made to the agreement. In 2005, Brown was arrested and charged with kidnapping in the United States. He was demoted and involuntarily retired from the military in 2006 and at his trial in 2009 entered a Kennedy plea, receiving probation on the felony conviction.
Does that sound like justice to you?
Is this the part where I explain that a single incident doesn't prove, well, much of anything? Yesterday the Brewers won their game. I guess that means next year they'll win if they're in a similar situation.
Do I think justice will be served? No, but that's only because the "justice" some people have called for is chemical castration and other ludicrous assessments. There are emotions and short of execution of these individuals, there will be upset people.
I establish a pattern of behavior regarding the handling these types of events, and you dismiss them as 'single incidents'.
Can you get more ridiculous?
Your logical reasoning is flawed. Where is your pattern? I see two incidents that have not yet come to trial, and another in another country that currently has no military relation to the other except regional.
I do dismiss them. Find a public study that shows numerous reports of behavior such as this in Korea that cannot be dismissed as "anecdotal", as you have dismissed arguments against your own.
On October 09 2011 06:03 rockerman101 wrote: god its horrible that we have soldiers doing this shit
This happens in the US on our military bases too and the sad part is it usually gets swept under the rug with little more than a slap on the wrist for the offender.
Funny, while I was getting my medical discharge, we had a guy going through a dishonorable discharge, confined to quarters, registered as a sex offender, losing his benefits, getting his pay docked. And that was them going light on him.
On October 09 2011 08:35 Klipsys wrote: I'm confused as to why this is even posted(on TL not in SK)? People get raped all the time, is this really a huge deal because they're American in Korea? And I find it curious that so many people want to voice their outrage, when every single day in America people are raped and murdered, but there's not a thread for every single one of those crimes, so why is this one unique? Mayeb I'm off base here but being a starcraft site, I can't help but think people just want to demonstrate to the TL community that they're pro Korean, rather than anti-rape. Not to say anyone condones rape, I just find it humors the reply's in here because as mentioned before, this isn't exactly a particularity shocking incident.
That you're confused as to why this is such a big deal says more about your limited powers of cognition than it does about the significance of the issue.
This event serves to remind people of the gross reach of the US military and their curious need to have hundreds of thousands of military personnel stationed on bases across the entire world.
It's also symbolic of the nature of US dominion over the Pacific community. US soldiers stationed in Okinawa also murdered and raped Japanese women over the years. So this is not a new pattern of behavior.
It's perfectly fine that you don't find this shocking, but it's ignorant of you to imply that these events are trivial.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees.
What the hell are they teaching you in school?
Do you want to use what happened to these girls as a platform to launch an Anti-American military campaign? Because that's all is being accomplished by being here. No one is talking about the actual crime here, they're arguing if the military should even be there. Again, rape happens all over the world, every single day. The only reason this is a thread is because some people want to preach the anti american sentiment, and some want to be seen as being pro Korean. If the reason this was posted was because we all hate rape, then why isn't there a thread every day for all of the women who are rape, all over the world?
How would you like it if China had bases in America and began to rape our women?
I don't really give a shit who does it, rape is fucking rape. Pun intended. People aren't saying ignore rape, they're saying that no matter who does it, it's bad, and making a big deal out of a specific case to make a political point is stupid.
do you know that rape is biologicaly healthy? it is like saying, dont eat vegitables they are good for you
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees.
What the hell are they teaching you in school?
Do you want to use what happened to these girls as a platform to launch an Anti-American military campaign? Because that's all is being accomplished by being here. No one is talking about the actual crime here, they're arguing if the military should even be there. Again, rape happens all over the world, every single day. The only reason this is a thread is because some people want to preach the anti american sentiment, and some want to be seen as being pro Korean. If the reason this was posted was because we all hate rape, then why isn't there a thread every day for all of the women who are rape, all over the world?
You fucking tell me.
Why the hell are my countrymen so deluded as to why the rest of the world might find reason for anti-american sentiment when American soldiers rape domestic nationals and are not held accountable?
Those blokes at Okinawa? You think 'justice' was served there?
Your nationalist bias is showing pretty clearly.
There are people saying they shouldn't be punished? Where? Putting the cart before the horse or can you see into the future?
It's pretty clear that they won't be punished adequately if history is a guide.
Let me try to get through to you:
The same thing happened in Okinawa:
The Michael Brown Okinawa attempted assault incident arose from an attempted indecent assault by U.S. Marine Corps Major Michael Brown on a Filipina bartender, V. N. (initials of victim), in Okinawa, Japan, on November 2, 2002. V.N. accused Brown of attempting to rape her and throwing her cell phone into a nearby river; Brown denied the rape charges. The victim later recanted her testimony, though prosecutors presented evidence that she had received a cash payment just before doing so.
The case received extensive attention in the Japanese media, especially in Okinawa, and the crime sparked a public debate over the U.S. military presence in Japan, the privileges of extraterritoriality, as well as the fair trial practices of Japanese legal system and the Japanese police. The case involved the Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security between the United States and Japan and the U.S.–Japan Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA).
On July 8, 2004, after a 19-month trial, Brown was convicted by a Japanese court of attempted indecent assault and destruction of private property and received a one-year suspended prison sentence. As a result of this incident and others involving crimes committed by U.S. military personnel in Japan, both countries entered into negotiations aimed at modifying the SOFA in July 2003; ultimately, however, no changes were made to the agreement. In 2005, Brown was arrested and charged with kidnapping in the United States. He was demoted and involuntarily retired from the military in 2006 and at his trial in 2009 entered a Kennedy plea, receiving probation on the felony conviction.
Does that sound like justice to you?
Is this the part where I explain that a single incident doesn't prove, well, much of anything? Yesterday the Brewers won their game. I guess that means next year they'll win if they're in a similar situation.
Do I think justice will be served? No, but that's only because the "justice" some people have called for is chemical castration and other ludicrous assessments. There are emotions and short of execution of these individuals, there will be upset people.
I establish a pattern of behavior regarding the handling these types of events, and you dismiss them as 'single incidents'.
Can you get more ridiculous?
You have a handful of incident that may or may not prove your point. Whats your sample size? What about the cases that don't support your side at all? How many rape cases of US personal overseas are covered up or poorly investigated? By the way your writing, your imply the US is actively protecting rapist. That's dumber than 9/11 conspiracy's, because even those have some semblance of fact.
Dumber than 9/11 conspiracy's huh.
Brilliant metaphor.
Oh yeah, that reminds me: Because 9/11 ONLY HAPPENED ONCE, there is no STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT evidence that terrorists have been trying to attack the United States these past two decades.
Please. Please, give up this line of thinking before you ruin us all.
Okay so show me all of the cases of soldiers raping people in the last 50 years, and then show me all of the coverups. I doubt you actually grasp what a statistical significance is, since it's not sporadic correlation to a laughable theory. And the idea that the US knew more about 9/11 than it lets on is absolutely more plausible than the military is actively engaged in protecting rapists.
On October 09 2011 06:03 rockerman101 wrote: god its horrible that we have soldiers doing this shit
This happens in the US on our military bases too and the sad part is it usually gets swept under the rug with little more than a slap on the wrist for the offender.
Funny, while I was getting my medical discharge, we had a guy going through a dishonorable discharge, confined to quarters, registered as a sex offender, losing his benefits, getting his pay docked. And that was them going light on him.
JingleHell, his argument states that your medical discharge from crohn's and my brother's having been a district commander in Seoul are anecdotes that he cannot confirm.
That being said, he is also making statements of multiple incidences that also could be called such.
On October 09 2011 06:03 rockerman101 wrote: god its horrible that we have soldiers doing this shit
This happens in the US on our military bases too and the sad part is it usually gets swept under the rug with little more than a slap on the wrist for the offender.
Funny, while I was getting my medical discharge, we had a guy going through a dishonorable discharge, confined to quarters, registered as a sex offender, losing his benefits, getting his pay docked. And that was them going light on him.
JingleHell, his argument states that your medical discharge from crohn's and my brother's having been a district commander in Seoul are anecdotes that he cannot confirm.
That being said, he is also making statements of multiple incidences that also could be called such.
Actually, mines very confirmable, I just happen to be too lazy to scan my DD214 and remove all my personal info.
Although really, until the guys involved are found guilty, their rape is anecdotal too, so why is everyone so ready to believe that?
On October 09 2011 06:03 rockerman101 wrote: god its horrible that we have soldiers doing this shit
This happens in the US on our military bases too and the sad part is it usually gets swept under the rug with little more than a slap on the wrist for the offender.
Funny, while I was getting my medical discharge, we had a guy going through a dishonorable discharge, confined to quarters, registered as a sex offender, losing his benefits, getting his pay docked. And that was them going light on him.
JingleHell, his argument states that your medical discharge from crohn's and my brother's having been a district commander in Seoul are anecdotes that he cannot confirm.
That being said, he is also making statements of multiple incidences that also could be called such.
Actually, mines very confirmable, I just happen to be too lazy to scan my DD214 and remove all my personal info.
Although really, until the guys involved are found guilty, their rape is anecdotal too, so why is everyone so ready to believe that?
As is mine, being that my brother's being in command is well documented, and accessible if I jsut gave a name. I wouldn't call the rapes "anecdotal", but I would call them "comparatively insignificant".
On October 09 2011 08:45 Consolidate wrote: [quote]
That you're confused as to why this is such a big deal says more about your limited powers of cognition than it does about the significance of the issue.
This event serves to remind people of the gross reach of the US military and their curious need to have hundreds of thousands of military personnel stationed on bases across the entire world.
It's also symbolic of the nature of US dominion over the Pacific community. US soldiers stationed in Okinawa also murdered and raped Japanese women over the years. So this is not a new pattern of behavior.
It's perfectly fine that you don't find this shocking, but it's ignorant of you to imply that these events are trivial.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees.
What the hell are they teaching you in school?
Do you want to use what happened to these girls as a platform to launch an Anti-American military campaign? Because that's all is being accomplished by being here. No one is talking about the actual crime here, they're arguing if the military should even be there. Again, rape happens all over the world, every single day. The only reason this is a thread is because some people want to preach the anti american sentiment, and some want to be seen as being pro Korean. If the reason this was posted was because we all hate rape, then why isn't there a thread every day for all of the women who are rape, all over the world?
You fucking tell me.
Why the hell are my countrymen so deluded as to why the rest of the world might find reason for anti-american sentiment when American soldiers rape domestic nationals and are not held accountable?
Those blokes at Okinawa? You think 'justice' was served there?
Your nationalist bias is showing pretty clearly.
I have no nationalistic bias. My brother, as I have stated, was one of the District Commanders of the Military Police in Seoul. He handled cases such as this and I can tell you, these incidences are rare, and the perpetrators do not go unpunished by the military even if they are released, as long as there is sufficient evidence to confirm their guilt(which there is, in this case).
I'm one hundred percent positive that even your anecdotal evidence will confirm that the 'punishments' are a joke and magnitudes less severe than those dealt to civilians.
lol, Jesus Christ. Isn't there a protest in NYC you should be heading to?
I am the one percent.
I'm sorry you immediately assume than anyone who calls your out on your bullshit is a bleeding-heart liberal.
I'm also probably more conservative and pro-hegemony than you are. I'm just intellectually honest about my arguments.
I would not go so far as to call another's opinion "bullshit" regardless of difference. Nor would I criticize you in such a manner.
The two ends of the spectrum are critical of US foreign policy and for it. I ascribe to to the former, yet I feel as though this situation does not warrant the attention that it has received here.
It blows my mind to see critical matters of foreign policy dismissed as though it were tabloid trash.
The US risks losing both Korean and Japan to this sort bullshit, if they're not careful.
Asian public sentiment is a goddamn force of nature. Like I said before: THE PRIME MINSTER OF JAPAN resigned simply because he could not remove the Okinawa base.
It's simply not natural for the United States to have such an intrusive presence in counties like SK and Japan. That it is able to maintain such a presence is a testament its hard power ALONE.
These teenagers can't see the significance of the Korean public outrage, because they're narrow-minded sophomores who evaluate everything from their pedestrian point of view.
'Rape is Rape, lol, it's not statistically significant"
On October 09 2011 06:03 rockerman101 wrote: god its horrible that we have soldiers doing this shit
This happens in the US on our military bases too and the sad part is it usually gets swept under the rug with little more than a slap on the wrist for the offender.
Funny, while I was getting my medical discharge, we had a guy going through a dishonorable discharge, confined to quarters, registered as a sex offender, losing his benefits, getting his pay docked. And that was them going light on him.
JingleHell, his argument states that your medical discharge from crohn's and my brother's having been a district commander in Seoul are anecdotes that he cannot confirm.
That being said, he is also making statements of multiple incidences that also could be called such.
Actually, mines very confirmable, I just happen to be too lazy to scan my DD214 and remove all my personal info.
Although really, until the guys involved are found guilty, their rape is anecdotal too, so why is everyone so ready to believe that?
As is mine, being that my brother's being in command is well documented, and accessible if I jsut gave a name. I wouldn't call the rapes "anecdotal", but I would call them "comparatively insignificant".
Yeah, his DD214, ORB, OER, or roughly a dozen other documents would prove it. They're just a bitch to cover up the personal info on.
Fun news. US Soldiers can be executed if they're found guilty by court martial. Oh, and the military tends to aim more for guilty until proven innocent.
On October 09 2011 06:03 rockerman101 wrote: god its horrible that we have soldiers doing this shit
This happens in the US on our military bases too and the sad part is it usually gets swept under the rug with little more than a slap on the wrist for the offender.
Funny, while I was getting my medical discharge, we had a guy going through a dishonorable discharge, confined to quarters, registered as a sex offender, losing his benefits, getting his pay docked. And that was them going light on him.
JingleHell, his argument states that your medical discharge from crohn's and my brother's having been a district commander in Seoul are anecdotes that he cannot confirm.
That being said, he is also making statements of multiple incidences that also could be called such.
Actually, mines very confirmable, I just happen to be too lazy to scan my DD214 and remove all my personal info.
Although really, until the guys involved are found guilty, their rape is anecdotal too, so why is everyone so ready to believe that?
As is mine, being that my brother's being in command is well documented, and accessible if I jsut gave a name. I wouldn't call the rapes "anecdotal", but I would call them "comparatively insignificant".
You military brats should get a room already.
You just can't seem to grasp the concept of 'looking after your own'.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees.
What the hell are they teaching you in school?
Do you want to use what happened to these girls as a platform to launch an Anti-American military campaign? Because that's all is being accomplished by being here. No one is talking about the actual crime here, they're arguing if the military should even be there. Again, rape happens all over the world, every single day. The only reason this is a thread is because some people want to preach the anti american sentiment, and some want to be seen as being pro Korean. If the reason this was posted was because we all hate rape, then why isn't there a thread every day for all of the women who are rape, all over the world?
You fucking tell me.
Why the hell are my countrymen so deluded as to why the rest of the world might find reason for anti-american sentiment when American soldiers rape domestic nationals and are not held accountable?
Those blokes at Okinawa? You think 'justice' was served there?
Your nationalist bias is showing pretty clearly.
I have no nationalistic bias. My brother, as I have stated, was one of the District Commanders of the Military Police in Seoul. He handled cases such as this and I can tell you, these incidences are rare, and the perpetrators do not go unpunished by the military even if they are released, as long as there is sufficient evidence to confirm their guilt(which there is, in this case).
I'm one hundred percent positive that even your anecdotal evidence will confirm that the 'punishments' are a joke and magnitudes less severe than those dealt to civilians.
lol, Jesus Christ. Isn't there a protest in NYC you should be heading to?
I am the one percent.
I'm sorry you immediately assume than anyone who calls your out on your bullshit is a bleeding-heart liberal.
I'm also probably more conservative and pro-hegemony than you are. I'm just intellectually honest about my arguments.
I would not go so far as to call another's opinion "bullshit" regardless of difference. Nor would I criticize you in such a manner.
The two ends of the spectrum are critical of US foreign policy and for it. I ascribe to to the former, yet I feel as though this situation does not warrant the attention that it has received here.
It blows my mind to see critical matters of foreign policy dismissed as though it were tabloid trash.
The US risks losing both Korean and Japan to this sort bullshit, if they're not careful.
Asian public sentiment is a goddamn force of nature. Like I said before: THE PRIME MINSTER OF JAPAN resigned simply because he could not remove the Okinawa base.
It's simply not natural for the United States to have such an intrusive presence in counties like SK and Japan. That it is able to maintain such a presence is a testament its hard power ALONE.
These teenagers can't see the significance of the Korean public outrage, because they're narrow-minded sophomores who evaluate everything from their pedestrian point of view.
'Rape is Rape, lol, it's not statistically significant"
You know, Japan has been going through its Prime Ministers at a fairly rapid rate for the past tow years...
I'm genuinely surprised that you insist that anyone who does not evaluate this from your standpoint is mentally hanidcapped.
Fun news. US Soldiers can be executed if they're found guilty by court martial. Oh, and the military tends to aim more for guilty until proven innocent.
Good news. Hang em high!
If they're guilty, I got no problem with it. I was pointing this out mostly because everybody keeps saying it will get swept under the rug and shit. Not likely. And for that matter, with ole J Thurman in charge there, it definitely won't disappear. Guy has a major stick up his ass. And a pacemaker. Back when I was on the security detail for his Assistant Division Commander - Support, the Division Sergeant Major would go stand by the microwave in the dining facility before he walked past it so nobody would turn it on.
On October 09 2011 06:03 rockerman101 wrote: god its horrible that we have soldiers doing this shit
This happens in the US on our military bases too and the sad part is it usually gets swept under the rug with little more than a slap on the wrist for the offender.
Funny, while I was getting my medical discharge, we had a guy going through a dishonorable discharge, confined to quarters, registered as a sex offender, losing his benefits, getting his pay docked. And that was them going light on him.
JingleHell, his argument states that your medical discharge from crohn's and my brother's having been a district commander in Seoul are anecdotes that he cannot confirm.
That being said, he is also making statements of multiple incidences that also could be called such.
Actually, mines very confirmable, I just happen to be too lazy to scan my DD214 and remove all my personal info.
Although really, until the guys involved are found guilty, their rape is anecdotal too, so why is everyone so ready to believe that?
As is mine, being that my brother's being in command is well documented, and accessible if I jsut gave a name. I wouldn't call the rapes "anecdotal", but I would call them "comparatively insignificant".
You military brats should get a room already.
You just can't seem to grasp the concept of 'looking after your own'.
Military brat is a kid that grew up with an Active Duty parent. Not a former soldier or sibling thereof.
And we do understand "Looking after your own". We just also know it doesn't happen above the platoon level, and a court martial offense is WAY above platoon level.
I still am waiting for a list of all the rape cases and supposed cover ups, because I need proof that the military goes out of it's way to protect rapists.
On October 09 2011 05:37 MattBarry wrote: It's so stupid for people to get angry about this. 2 Americans does not represent the entire country.
waoh, defensive much...? its stupid to be angry about rape because....it hurts the image of the US abroad? really? Btw, no-one has said `they raped her because they were American`; that was your assumption about public (TL) opinion. I resent that, sir.
On October 09 2011 09:01 Consolidate wrote: [quote]
It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees.
What the hell are they teaching you in school?
Do you want to use what happened to these girls as a platform to launch an Anti-American military campaign? Because that's all is being accomplished by being here. No one is talking about the actual crime here, they're arguing if the military should even be there. Again, rape happens all over the world, every single day. The only reason this is a thread is because some people want to preach the anti american sentiment, and some want to be seen as being pro Korean. If the reason this was posted was because we all hate rape, then why isn't there a thread every day for all of the women who are rape, all over the world?
You fucking tell me.
Why the hell are my countrymen so deluded as to why the rest of the world might find reason for anti-american sentiment when American soldiers rape domestic nationals and are not held accountable?
Those blokes at Okinawa? You think 'justice' was served there?
Your nationalist bias is showing pretty clearly.
I have no nationalistic bias. My brother, as I have stated, was one of the District Commanders of the Military Police in Seoul. He handled cases such as this and I can tell you, these incidences are rare, and the perpetrators do not go unpunished by the military even if they are released, as long as there is sufficient evidence to confirm their guilt(which there is, in this case).
I'm one hundred percent positive that even your anecdotal evidence will confirm that the 'punishments' are a joke and magnitudes less severe than those dealt to civilians.
lol, Jesus Christ. Isn't there a protest in NYC you should be heading to?
I am the one percent.
I'm sorry you immediately assume than anyone who calls your out on your bullshit is a bleeding-heart liberal.
I'm also probably more conservative and pro-hegemony than you are. I'm just intellectually honest about my arguments.
I would not go so far as to call another's opinion "bullshit" regardless of difference. Nor would I criticize you in such a manner.
The two ends of the spectrum are critical of US foreign policy and for it. I ascribe to to the former, yet I feel as though this situation does not warrant the attention that it has received here.
It blows my mind to see critical matters of foreign policy dismissed as though it were tabloid trash.
The US risks losing both Korean and Japan to this sort bullshit, if they're not careful.
Asian public sentiment is a goddamn force of nature. Like I said before: THE PRIME MINSTER OF JAPAN resigned simply because he could not remove the Okinawa base.
It's simply not natural for the United States to have such an intrusive presence in counties like SK and Japan. That it is able to maintain such a presence is a testament its hard power ALONE.
These teenagers can't see the significance of the Korean public outrage, because they're narrow-minded sophomores who evaluate everything from their pedestrian point of view.
'Rape is Rape, lol, it's not statistically significant"
You know, Japan has been going through its Prime Ministers at a fairly rapid rate for the past tow years...
I'm genuinely surprised that you insist that anyone who does not evaluate this from your standpoint is mentally hanidcapped.
"You know, Japan has been going through its Prime Ministers at a fairly rapid rate for the past tow years..."
Everyone says this pretending to know what they're talking about, but no one pays attention to the reasons why.
"...anyone who does not evaluate this from your standpoint is mentally handicapped."
I can't imagine being so crass. I'm pretty sure I used the phrase "cognitively-impaired."
On October 09 2011 05:37 MattBarry wrote: It's so stupid for people to get angry about this. 2 Americans does not represent the entire country.
waoh, defensive much...? its stupid to be angry about rape because....it hurts the image of the US abroad? really? Btw, no-one has said `they raped her because they were American`; that was your assumption about public (TL) opinion. I resent that, sir.
Actually it has been said. Along with allegations that skin color amongst Americans was also relevant. The guy was promptly banned.
Fun news. US Soldiers can be executed if they're found guilty by court martial. Oh, and the military tends to aim more for guilty until proven innocent.
Good news. Hang em high!
If they're guilty, I got no problem with it. I was pointing this out mostly because everybody keeps saying it will get swept under the rug and shit. Not likely. And for that matter, with ole J Thurman in charge there, it definitely won't disappear. Guy has a major stick up his ass. And a pacemaker. Back when I was on the security detail for his Assistant Division Commander - Support, the Division Sergeant Major would go stand by the microwave in the dining facility before he walked past it so nobody would turn it on.
On October 09 2011 06:03 rockerman101 wrote: god its horrible that we have soldiers doing this shit
This happens in the US on our military bases too and the sad part is it usually gets swept under the rug with little more than a slap on the wrist for the offender.
Funny, while I was getting my medical discharge, we had a guy going through a dishonorable discharge, confined to quarters, registered as a sex offender, losing his benefits, getting his pay docked. And that was them going light on him.
JingleHell, his argument states that your medical discharge from crohn's and my brother's having been a district commander in Seoul are anecdotes that he cannot confirm.
That being said, he is also making statements of multiple incidences that also could be called such.
Actually, mines very confirmable, I just happen to be too lazy to scan my DD214 and remove all my personal info.
Although really, until the guys involved are found guilty, their rape is anecdotal too, so why is everyone so ready to believe that?
As is mine, being that my brother's being in command is well documented, and accessible if I jsut gave a name. I wouldn't call the rapes "anecdotal", but I would call them "comparatively insignificant".
You military brats should get a room already.
You just can't seem to grasp the concept of 'looking after your own'.
Military brat is a kid that grew up with an Active Duty parent. Not a former soldier or sibling thereof.
And we do understand "Looking after your own". We just also know it doesn't happen above the platoon level, and a court martial offense is WAY above platoon level.
"The 1995 Okinawa rape incident refers to a rape that took place on September 4, 1995, when three U.S. servicemen, U.S. Navy Seaman Marcus Gill and U.S. Marines Rodrico Harp and Kendrick Ledet, all from Camp Hansen on Okinawa, rented a van and kidnapped a 12-year-old Japanese girl. They beat her, duct-taped her eyes and mouth shut, and bound her hands. Gill and Harp then raped her, while Ledet claimed he only pretended to do so out of fear of Gill. "
Go on and guess if any of those savages were court-martialed.
Please, give up this line of thinking before you ruin us all.
These teenagers can't see the significance...
because they're narrow-minded sophomores who evaluate everything from their pedestrian point of view.
I haven't been doing this, Consolidate. I'm simply saying, is it possible that this an issue that can only be resolved with further information and discussion, not one-side-versus-the-other-side.
While what the two troops did is inexcusable, these are actions of individuals not the military. Out of 30,000 people there are bound to be a couple animals that ruin it for everyone else. After World War II ,to throw some light on the matter but not to condone the actions of young men in wars/post war countries, when the Nazi government fell and Berlin was occupied of the civilian population the number of rapes by troops was in the 10,000s if not 100,000s.
All I see your argument doing is confirming my belief. You use Japan as evidence that change will come... but all they did was change PM's. The base is still there, just as it was. And whether something gets shook up in the SK political spectrum or not, the bases will also remain there.
You continue to make the allegation that the US military will do its best to impede justice and see that these 2 soldiers (assuming they're guilty) will get off lightly. If you're going to make this claim, citing an example or two alone is not even close to enough to show anything resembling a pattern.
On October 09 2011 05:37 MattBarry wrote: It's so stupid for people to get angry about this. 2 Americans does not represent the entire country.
waoh, defensive much...? its stupid to be angry about rape because....it hurts the image of the US abroad? really? Btw, no-one has said `they raped her because they were American`; that was your assumption about public (TL) opinion. I resent that, sir.
Actually it has been said. Along with allegations that skin color amongst Americans was also relevant. The guy was promptly banned.
that may be, but the post was early in the thread, before any such comments occurred.
because they're narrow-minded sophomores who evaluate everything from their pedestrian point of view.
I haven't been doing this, Consolidate. I'm simply saying, is it possible that this an issue that can only be resolved with further information and discussion, not one-side-versus-the-other-side.
Don't hold my rhetorical flourish against me. I'm not talking about you.
This is an interesting issue upon which many interpretations can be made.
I'm just ridiculing those who dismissing this entire topic as an ordinary crime of trivial importance.
Fun news. US Soldiers can be executed if they're found guilty by court martial. Oh, and the military tends to aim more for guilty until proven innocent.
Good news. Hang em high!
If they're guilty, I got no problem with it. I was pointing this out mostly because everybody keeps saying it will get swept under the rug and shit. Not likely. And for that matter, with ole J Thurman in charge there, it definitely won't disappear. Guy has a major stick up his ass. And a pacemaker. Back when I was on the security detail for his Assistant Division Commander - Support, the Division Sergeant Major would go stand by the microwave in the dining facility before he walked past it so nobody would turn it on.
On October 09 2011 10:03 Consolidate wrote:
On October 09 2011 10:01 PraetorialGamer wrote:
On October 09 2011 09:59 JingleHell wrote:
On October 09 2011 09:57 PraetorialGamer wrote:
On October 09 2011 09:55 JingleHell wrote:
On October 09 2011 09:52 Skullflower wrote:
On October 09 2011 06:03 rockerman101 wrote: god its horrible that we have soldiers doing this shit
This happens in the US on our military bases too and the sad part is it usually gets swept under the rug with little more than a slap on the wrist for the offender.
Funny, while I was getting my medical discharge, we had a guy going through a dishonorable discharge, confined to quarters, registered as a sex offender, losing his benefits, getting his pay docked. And that was them going light on him.
JingleHell, his argument states that your medical discharge from crohn's and my brother's having been a district commander in Seoul are anecdotes that he cannot confirm.
That being said, he is also making statements of multiple incidences that also could be called such.
Actually, mines very confirmable, I just happen to be too lazy to scan my DD214 and remove all my personal info.
Although really, until the guys involved are found guilty, their rape is anecdotal too, so why is everyone so ready to believe that?
As is mine, being that my brother's being in command is well documented, and accessible if I jsut gave a name. I wouldn't call the rapes "anecdotal", but I would call them "comparatively insignificant".
You military brats should get a room already.
You just can't seem to grasp the concept of 'looking after your own'.
Military brat is a kid that grew up with an Active Duty parent. Not a former soldier or sibling thereof.
And we do understand "Looking after your own". We just also know it doesn't happen above the platoon level, and a court martial offense is WAY above platoon level.
"The 1995 Okinawa rape incident refers to a rape that took place on September 4, 1995, when three U.S. servicemen, U.S. Navy Seaman Marcus Gill and U.S. Marines Rodrico Harp and Kendrick Ledet, all from Camp Hansen on Okinawa, rented a van and kidnapped a 12-year-old Japanese girl. They beat her, duct-taped her eyes and mouth shut, and bound her hands. Gill and Harp then raped her, while Ledet claimed he only pretended to do so out of fear of Gill. "
Go on and guess if any of those savages were court-martialed.
Go on.
Guess.
Nope, they handed them over to the Japanese government to play with instead. Problem being?
On October 09 2011 08:45 Consolidate wrote: [quote]
That you're confused as to why this is such a big deal says more about your limited powers of cognition than it does about the significance of the issue.
This event serves to remind people of the gross reach of the US military and their curious need to have hundreds of thousands of military personnel stationed on bases across the entire world.
It's also symbolic of the nature of US dominion over the Pacific community. US soldiers stationed in Okinawa also murdered and raped Japanese women over the years. So this is not a new pattern of behavior.
It's perfectly fine that you don't find this shocking, but it's ignorant of you to imply that these events are trivial.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees.
What the hell are they teaching you in school?
Do you want to use what happened to these girls as a platform to launch an Anti-American military campaign? Because that's all is being accomplished by being here. No one is talking about the actual crime here, they're arguing if the military should even be there. Again, rape happens all over the world, every single day. The only reason this is a thread is because some people want to preach the anti american sentiment, and some want to be seen as being pro Korean. If the reason this was posted was because we all hate rape, then why isn't there a thread every day for all of the women who are rape, all over the world?
You fucking tell me.
Why the hell are my countrymen so deluded as to why the rest of the world might find reason for anti-american sentiment when American soldiers rape domestic nationals and are not held accountable?
Those blokes at Okinawa? You think 'justice' was served there?
Your nationalist bias is showing pretty clearly.
There are people saying they shouldn't be punished? Where? Putting the cart before the horse or can you see into the future?
It's pretty clear that they won't be punished adequately if history is a guide.
Let me try to get through to you:
The same thing happened in Okinawa:
The Michael Brown Okinawa attempted assault incident arose from an attempted indecent assault by U.S. Marine Corps Major Michael Brown on a Filipina bartender, V. N. (initials of victim), in Okinawa, Japan, on November 2, 2002. V.N. accused Brown of attempting to rape her and throwing her cell phone into a nearby river; Brown denied the rape charges. The victim later recanted her testimony, though prosecutors presented evidence that she had received a cash payment just before doing so.
The case received extensive attention in the Japanese media, especially in Okinawa, and the crime sparked a public debate over the U.S. military presence in Japan, the privileges of extraterritoriality, as well as the fair trial practices of Japanese legal system and the Japanese police. The case involved the Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security between the United States and Japan and the U.S.–Japan Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA).
On July 8, 2004, after a 19-month trial, Brown was convicted by a Japanese court of attempted indecent assault and destruction of private property and received a one-year suspended prison sentence. As a result of this incident and others involving crimes committed by U.S. military personnel in Japan, both countries entered into negotiations aimed at modifying the SOFA in July 2003; ultimately, however, no changes were made to the agreement. In 2005, Brown was arrested and charged with kidnapping in the United States. He was demoted and involuntarily retired from the military in 2006 and at his trial in 2009 entered a Kennedy plea, receiving probation on the felony conviction.
Does that sound like justice to you?
Is this the part where I explain that a single incident doesn't prove, well, much of anything? Yesterday the Brewers won their game. I guess that means next year they'll win if they're in a similar situation.
Do I think justice will be served? No, but that's only because the "justice" some people have called for is chemical castration and other ludicrous assessments. There are emotions and short of execution of these individuals, there will be upset people.
I establish a pattern of behavior regarding the handling these types of events, and you dismiss them as 'single incidents'.
Can you get more ridiculous?
Your logical reasoning is flawed. Where is your pattern? I see two incidents that have not yet come to trial, and another in another country that currently has no military relation to the other except regional.
I do dismiss them. Find a public study that shows numerous reports of behavior such as this in Korea that cannot be dismissed as "anecdotal", as you have dismissed arguments against your own.
Sorry PraetorialGamer i thought what you said up to now was very reasonable (miles above what came from Klipsys and ownyaah...). But this just makes me sick to the stomach. There have been many, many issues with US military presence in other countries (this is just the tip of the iceberg!).
For example when the Ramstein disaster occurred (just because i know the level here i will hedge by saying _of course the military base was not responsible for the Italian jet crashing/this horrible incident occurring_), however ambulances and medical staff from the surrounding clinics where at first not let on to the premise because they didn't have clearance.
Why are US nuclear bombs stationed in Germany? Why could the last foreign minister of Germany only highlight this issue and say how unhappy Germans are with it than actually do anything about it?
The list goes on... Surely with a bit of imagination you can think of many other reasons what can go wrong with having a military base full of privileged/bored men in a country.
So trying to pretend that this tip of the iceberg - these latest problems are really non existent, and before then everything was just fine as well, does not sit right with me.
So what is the issue here? The US government stations US soldiers around the world in military bases. The government does this by the authority given to it by the US citizens. Do Koreans, Japanese, Germans... have any democratic power over these bases? No. The only thing left is running against this brick wall, their own incompetent politicians, to put pressure on US foreign policy - which they have been trying for the last 60 years.
So i think we need to work together. Of course we should make our politicians fight for this issue. But US citizens have to at least *think* about this issue. Depending on how they decide they can chose to (or not) put pressure on _their_ representatives about this.
Please, give up this line of thinking before you ruin us all.
These teenagers can't see the significance...
because they're narrow-minded sophomores who evaluate everything from their pedestrian point of view.
I haven't been doing this, Consolidate. I'm simply saying, is it possible that this an issue that can only be resolved with further information and discussion, not one-side-versus-the-other-side.
Don't hold my rhetorical flourish against me. I'm not talking about you.
This is an interesting issue upon which many interpretations can be made.
I'm just ridiculing those who dismissing this entire topic as an ordinary crime of trivial importance.
I apologize for being a critic of your colurful rhetoric, which you rightly call so.
And indeed, can an interpretation of this not be that this IS an ordinary crime of trivial importance?
Please, give up this line of thinking before you ruin us all.
These teenagers can't see the significance...
because they're narrow-minded sophomores who evaluate everything from their pedestrian point of view.
I haven't been doing this, Consolidate. I'm simply saying, is it possible that this an issue that can only be resolved with further information and discussion, not one-side-versus-the-other-side.
Don't hold my rhetorical flourish against me. I'm not talking about you.
This is an interesting issue upon which many interpretations can be made.
I'm just ridiculing those who dismissing this entire topic as an ordinary crime of trivial importance.
I apologize for being a critic of your colurful rhetoric, which you rightly call so.
And indeed, can an interpretation of this not be that this IS an ordinary crime of trivial importance?
No, as soon as it turns into an opportunity to attack the US Military, it's not a crime that happens almost daily in every country in the world anymore. It promptly becomes an entirely different crime.
On October 09 2011 10:14 I_Love_Bacon wrote: All I see your argument doing is confirming my belief. You use Japan as evidence that change will come... but all they did was change PM's. The base is still there, just as it was. And whether something gets shook up in the SK political spectrum or not, the bases will also remain there.
You continue to make the allegation that the US military will do its best to impede justice and see that these 2 soldiers (assuming they're guilty) will get off lightly. If you're going to make this claim, citing an example or two alone is not even close to enough to show anything resembling a pattern.
Lets see you cite a few examples to the contrary?
Because we obviously disagree with the nature of status-quo 'justice within the military'.
And don't think for a moment that anyone actually believes your pretending to consider Yukio Hatoyama as evidence of 'the situation not changing'.
Don't confuse the argument.
I was arguing against people claiming that this was a trivial incident which would have no wide-ranging consequences beyond itself.
Ousting the PM of the world's second largest economy is not a trivial event.
Okay so, Men rape women Soldiers rape women American soldiers rape Asian women American soldiers in Korea raped Korean women.
Why is this incident so shocking and disturbing, outside of the fact that it's rape? Again, not to discount the actions of these individuals as trivial, but in the grand scheme of things, why does anyone outside of Korea care enough to blindly wish these people executed or other such nonsense? This is an issue that frankly only Koreans should care about...because it happened in Korea. Korean police should investigate, a Korean court should try them, and a Korean prison should house them. No one in Korea makes threads when American's get raped, and rightfully so, because then there would be millions of threads. The posts in this thread are ludicrous because never once have I seen a thread for a random American girl raped by a random foreigner. This is ONLY on TL BECAUSE it's Korea. This has nothing to do with the actual rape, and everything to do with where it happened, which I think it's offensive and stupid. American soldiers raped and killed Iraqi girls FOR YEARS, and there was never this much outcry.
Notice how this thread quickly derailed into why is the us there and NK would win the war, and almost nothing about these two girls who are probably traumatized for life. No one actually cares about these girls, they just want to be seen supporting Korea.
It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees.
What the hell are they teaching you in school?
Do you want to use what happened to these girls as a platform to launch an Anti-American military campaign? Because that's all is being accomplished by being here. No one is talking about the actual crime here, they're arguing if the military should even be there. Again, rape happens all over the world, every single day. The only reason this is a thread is because some people want to preach the anti american sentiment, and some want to be seen as being pro Korean. If the reason this was posted was because we all hate rape, then why isn't there a thread every day for all of the women who are rape, all over the world?
You fucking tell me.
Why the hell are my countrymen so deluded as to why the rest of the world might find reason for anti-american sentiment when American soldiers rape domestic nationals and are not held accountable?
Those blokes at Okinawa? You think 'justice' was served there?
Your nationalist bias is showing pretty clearly.
There are people saying they shouldn't be punished? Where? Putting the cart before the horse or can you see into the future?
It's pretty clear that they won't be punished adequately if history is a guide.
Let me try to get through to you:
The same thing happened in Okinawa:
The Michael Brown Okinawa attempted assault incident arose from an attempted indecent assault by U.S. Marine Corps Major Michael Brown on a Filipina bartender, V. N. (initials of victim), in Okinawa, Japan, on November 2, 2002. V.N. accused Brown of attempting to rape her and throwing her cell phone into a nearby river; Brown denied the rape charges. The victim later recanted her testimony, though prosecutors presented evidence that she had received a cash payment just before doing so.
The case received extensive attention in the Japanese media, especially in Okinawa, and the crime sparked a public debate over the U.S. military presence in Japan, the privileges of extraterritoriality, as well as the fair trial practices of Japanese legal system and the Japanese police. The case involved the Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security between the United States and Japan and the U.S.–Japan Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA).
On July 8, 2004, after a 19-month trial, Brown was convicted by a Japanese court of attempted indecent assault and destruction of private property and received a one-year suspended prison sentence. As a result of this incident and others involving crimes committed by U.S. military personnel in Japan, both countries entered into negotiations aimed at modifying the SOFA in July 2003; ultimately, however, no changes were made to the agreement. In 2005, Brown was arrested and charged with kidnapping in the United States. He was demoted and involuntarily retired from the military in 2006 and at his trial in 2009 entered a Kennedy plea, receiving probation on the felony conviction.
Does that sound like justice to you?
Is this the part where I explain that a single incident doesn't prove, well, much of anything? Yesterday the Brewers won their game. I guess that means next year they'll win if they're in a similar situation.
Do I think justice will be served? No, but that's only because the "justice" some people have called for is chemical castration and other ludicrous assessments. There are emotions and short of execution of these individuals, there will be upset people.
I establish a pattern of behavior regarding the handling these types of events, and you dismiss them as 'single incidents'.
Can you get more ridiculous?
Your logical reasoning is flawed. Where is your pattern? I see two incidents that have not yet come to trial, and another in another country that currently has no military relation to the other except regional.
I do dismiss them. Find a public study that shows numerous reports of behavior such as this in Korea that cannot be dismissed as "anecdotal", as you have dismissed arguments against your own.
Sorry PraetorialGamer i thought what you said up to now was very reasonable (miles above what came from Klipsys and ownyaah...). But this just makes me sick to the stomach. There have been many, many issues with US military presence in other countries (this is just the tip of the iceberg!).
For example when the Ramstein disaster occurred (just because i know the level here i will hedge by saying _of course the military base was not responsible for the Italian jet crashing/this horrible incident occurring_), however ambulances and medical staff from the surrounding clinics where at first not let on to the premise because they didn't have clearance.
Why are US nuclear bombs stationed in Germany? Why could the last foreign minister of Germany only highlight this issue and say how unhappy Germans are with it than actually do anything about it?
The list goes on... Surely with a bit of imagination you can think of many other reasons what can go wrong with having a military base full of privileged/bored men in a country.
So trying to pretend that this tip of the iceberg - these latest problems are really non existent, and before then everything was just fine as well, does not sit right with me.
So what is the issue here? The US government stations US soldiers around the world in military bases. The government does this by the authority given to it by the US citizens. Do Koreans, Japanese, Germans... have any democratic power over these bases? No. The only thing left is running against this brick wall, their own incompetent politicians, to put pressure on US foreign policy - which they have been trying for the last 60 years.
So i think we need to work together. Of course we should make our politicians fight for this issue. But US citizens have to at least *think* about this issue. Depending on how they decide on this issue they can chose to (or not) put pressure on _their_ representatives about this.
Everything else is just insulting.
I hope i could make myself clear.
Oh, certainly you did make yourself clear. I personally am against a strong US presence in many countries around the world, and I do think it's an issue that deserves more attention than it is getting.
I'm just one person with no political influence. I can't stop my country from what it's doing. Perhaps in eight years, when I graduate from college, I might. But until then, I remain just one extremely well-educated freshman with no way to challenge the army. I can try to argue that it could be worse, can be better with effort. But that's all I personally can do.
I'm just ridiculing those who dismissing this entire topic as an ordinary crime of trivial importance.
No crime is "ordinary", but this one wasn't extraordinary either. Basically, you're using these girls getting raped as an excuse to wage a personal moral crusade against the establishment of military bases in other countries. I don't know why exactly, but that's what you're doing. Then you claim the military is actually, actively involved in the protection of rapists, and talk about a few incidents that happened sporadically over the past decade or so, without any mention or thought to the other possible hundreds that you didn't hear about, that don't do anything to support your claim of bias from the military. There's actually little chance you'd head about some military case that ended with a guilty verdict, because it probably happens frequently.
I'm just ridiculing those who dismissing this entire topic as an ordinary crime of trivial importance.
No crime is "ordinary", but this one wasn't extraordinary either. Basically, you're using these girls getting raped as an excuse to wage a personal moral crusade against the establishment of military bases in other countries. I don't know why exactly, but that's what you're doing. Then you claim the military is actually, actively involved in the protection of rapists, and talk about a few incidents that happened sporadically over the past decade or so, without any mention or thought to the other possible hundreds that you didn't hear about, that don't do anything to support your claim of bias from the military. There's actually little chance you'd head about some military case that ended with a guilty verdict, because it probably happens frequently.
Why does everything seem to simple to you?
I don't give a hoot about the morality of rape or US bases on foreign soil.
All I'm saying is that this type of event has wider-ranging consequences than joe schmo (Klipsys), can comprehend even on good-brain days.
On October 09 2011 09:01 Consolidate wrote: [quote]
It's as if kids these days can't see the forest for the trees.
What the hell are they teaching you in school?
Do you want to use what happened to these girls as a platform to launch an Anti-American military campaign? Because that's all is being accomplished by being here. No one is talking about the actual crime here, they're arguing if the military should even be there. Again, rape happens all over the world, every single day. The only reason this is a thread is because some people want to preach the anti american sentiment, and some want to be seen as being pro Korean. If the reason this was posted was because we all hate rape, then why isn't there a thread every day for all of the women who are rape, all over the world?
You fucking tell me.
Why the hell are my countrymen so deluded as to why the rest of the world might find reason for anti-american sentiment when American soldiers rape domestic nationals and are not held accountable?
Those blokes at Okinawa? You think 'justice' was served there?
Your nationalist bias is showing pretty clearly.
There are people saying they shouldn't be punished? Where? Putting the cart before the horse or can you see into the future?
It's pretty clear that they won't be punished adequately if history is a guide.
Let me try to get through to you:
The same thing happened in Okinawa:
The Michael Brown Okinawa attempted assault incident arose from an attempted indecent assault by U.S. Marine Corps Major Michael Brown on a Filipina bartender, V. N. (initials of victim), in Okinawa, Japan, on November 2, 2002. V.N. accused Brown of attempting to rape her and throwing her cell phone into a nearby river; Brown denied the rape charges. The victim later recanted her testimony, though prosecutors presented evidence that she had received a cash payment just before doing so.
The case received extensive attention in the Japanese media, especially in Okinawa, and the crime sparked a public debate over the U.S. military presence in Japan, the privileges of extraterritoriality, as well as the fair trial practices of Japanese legal system and the Japanese police. The case involved the Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security between the United States and Japan and the U.S.–Japan Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA).
On July 8, 2004, after a 19-month trial, Brown was convicted by a Japanese court of attempted indecent assault and destruction of private property and received a one-year suspended prison sentence. As a result of this incident and others involving crimes committed by U.S. military personnel in Japan, both countries entered into negotiations aimed at modifying the SOFA in July 2003; ultimately, however, no changes were made to the agreement. In 2005, Brown was arrested and charged with kidnapping in the United States. He was demoted and involuntarily retired from the military in 2006 and at his trial in 2009 entered a Kennedy plea, receiving probation on the felony conviction.
Does that sound like justice to you?
Is this the part where I explain that a single incident doesn't prove, well, much of anything? Yesterday the Brewers won their game. I guess that means next year they'll win if they're in a similar situation.
Do I think justice will be served? No, but that's only because the "justice" some people have called for is chemical castration and other ludicrous assessments. There are emotions and short of execution of these individuals, there will be upset people.
I establish a pattern of behavior regarding the handling these types of events, and you dismiss them as 'single incidents'.
Can you get more ridiculous?
Your logical reasoning is flawed. Where is your pattern? I see two incidents that have not yet come to trial, and another in another country that currently has no military relation to the other except regional.
I do dismiss them. Find a public study that shows numerous reports of behavior such as this in Korea that cannot be dismissed as "anecdotal", as you have dismissed arguments against your own.
Sorry PraetorialGamer i thought what you said up to now was very reasonable (miles above what came from Klipsys and ownyaah...). But this just makes me sick to the stomach. There have been many, many issues with US military presence in other countries (this is just the tip of the iceberg!).
For example when the Ramstein disaster occurred (just because i know the level here i will hedge by saying _of course the military base was not responsible for the Italian jet crashing/this horrible incident occurring_), however ambulances and medical staff from the surrounding clinics where at first not let on to the premise because they didn't have clearance.
Why are US nuclear bombs stationed in Germany? Why could the last foreign minister of Germany only highlight this issue and say how unhappy Germans are with it than actually do anything about it?
The list goes on... Surely with a bit of imagination you can think of many other reasons what can go wrong with having a military base full of privileged/bored men in a country.
So trying to pretend that this tip of the iceberg - these latest problems are really non existent, and before then everything was just fine as well, does not sit right with me.
So what is the issue here? The US government stations US soldiers around the world in military bases. The government does this by the authority given to it by the US citizens. Do Koreans, Japanese, Germans... have any democratic power over these bases? No. The only thing left is running against this brick wall, their own incompetent politicians, to put pressure on US foreign policy - which they have been trying for the last 60 years.
So i think we need to work together. Of course we should make our politicians fight for this issue. But US citizens have to at least *think* about this issue. Depending on how they decide on this issue they can chose to (or not) put pressure on _their_ representatives about this.
Everything else is just insulting.
I hope i could make myself clear.
Oh, certainly you did make yourself clear. I personally am against a strong US presence in many countries around the world, and I do think it's an issue that deserves more attention than it is getting.
I'm just one person with no political influence. I can't stop my country from what it's doing. Perhaps in eight years, when I graduate from college, I might. But until then, I remain just one extremely well-educated freshman with no way to challenge the army. I can try to argue that it could be worse, can be better with effort. But that's all I personally can do.
Yeah, when I was in, I was generally considered a liberal asshole by most of the people I worked with. I have some very strong opinions about issues the US Military has, internally and politically. It just so happens that I also don't believe in guilt by association.
If we did believe in guilt by association, I'm pretty sure the entire world would be a huge series of smoking craters.
just hope this gets resolved without allegations that US is interfering with the investigation. similar issues in okinawa with US military unfortunately.
On October 09 2011 05:30 Bleak wrote: Wow, there are still 50.000 soldiers in Japan. I guess once US enters somewhere they don't ever go back.
Japan isn't really the typical case. Look into what was decided after WW2 regarding the role of Japan in the world.
Couple of things that need pointing out here. 1) This is absolutely the normal case. The United States has always left troops stationed in a country they have defeated in a war. (Note Germany, Italy, Russia is actually an exception, as they were an ally at the end of the war. You will see the same thing in Iraq and Afghanistan. This is a constant through U.S. History. 2) These accusations, sad as they may be, are still just that. Accusations. Until they are charged and tried these men are innocent. Even by Korean law.
Do you want to use what happened to these girls as a platform to launch an Anti-American military campaign? Because that's all is being accomplished by being here. No one is talking about the actual crime here, they're arguing if the military should even be there. Again, rape happens all over the world, every single day. The only reason this is a thread is because some people want to preach the anti american sentiment, and some want to be seen as being pro Korean. If the reason this was posted was because we all hate rape, then why isn't there a thread every day for all of the women who are rape, all over the world?
You fucking tell me.
Why the hell are my countrymen so deluded as to why the rest of the world might find reason for anti-american sentiment when American soldiers rape domestic nationals and are not held accountable?
Those blokes at Okinawa? You think 'justice' was served there?
Your nationalist bias is showing pretty clearly.
There are people saying they shouldn't be punished? Where? Putting the cart before the horse or can you see into the future?
It's pretty clear that they won't be punished adequately if history is a guide.
Let me try to get through to you:
The same thing happened in Okinawa:
The Michael Brown Okinawa attempted assault incident arose from an attempted indecent assault by U.S. Marine Corps Major Michael Brown on a Filipina bartender, V. N. (initials of victim), in Okinawa, Japan, on November 2, 2002. V.N. accused Brown of attempting to rape her and throwing her cell phone into a nearby river; Brown denied the rape charges. The victim later recanted her testimony, though prosecutors presented evidence that she had received a cash payment just before doing so.
The case received extensive attention in the Japanese media, especially in Okinawa, and the crime sparked a public debate over the U.S. military presence in Japan, the privileges of extraterritoriality, as well as the fair trial practices of Japanese legal system and the Japanese police. The case involved the Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security between the United States and Japan and the U.S.–Japan Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA).
On July 8, 2004, after a 19-month trial, Brown was convicted by a Japanese court of attempted indecent assault and destruction of private property and received a one-year suspended prison sentence. As a result of this incident and others involving crimes committed by U.S. military personnel in Japan, both countries entered into negotiations aimed at modifying the SOFA in July 2003; ultimately, however, no changes were made to the agreement. In 2005, Brown was arrested and charged with kidnapping in the United States. He was demoted and involuntarily retired from the military in 2006 and at his trial in 2009 entered a Kennedy plea, receiving probation on the felony conviction.
Does that sound like justice to you?
Is this the part where I explain that a single incident doesn't prove, well, much of anything? Yesterday the Brewers won their game. I guess that means next year they'll win if they're in a similar situation.
Do I think justice will be served? No, but that's only because the "justice" some people have called for is chemical castration and other ludicrous assessments. There are emotions and short of execution of these individuals, there will be upset people.
I establish a pattern of behavior regarding the handling these types of events, and you dismiss them as 'single incidents'.
Can you get more ridiculous?
Your logical reasoning is flawed. Where is your pattern? I see two incidents that have not yet come to trial, and another in another country that currently has no military relation to the other except regional.
I do dismiss them. Find a public study that shows numerous reports of behavior such as this in Korea that cannot be dismissed as "anecdotal", as you have dismissed arguments against your own.
Sorry PraetorialGamer i thought what you said up to now was very reasonable (miles above what came from Klipsys and ownyaah...). But this just makes me sick to the stomach. There have been many, many issues with US military presence in other countries (this is just the tip of the iceberg!).
For example when the Ramstein disaster occurred (just because i know the level here i will hedge by saying _of course the military base was not responsible for the Italian jet crashing/this horrible incident occurring_), however ambulances and medical staff from the surrounding clinics where at first not let on to the premise because they didn't have clearance.
Why are US nuclear bombs stationed in Germany? Why could the last foreign minister of Germany only highlight this issue and say how unhappy Germans are with it than actually do anything about it?
The list goes on... Surely with a bit of imagination you can think of many other reasons what can go wrong with having a military base full of privileged/bored men in a country.
So trying to pretend that this tip of the iceberg - these latest problems are really non existent, and before then everything was just fine as well, does not sit right with me.
So what is the issue here? The US government stations US soldiers around the world in military bases. The government does this by the authority given to it by the US citizens. Do Koreans, Japanese, Germans... have any democratic power over these bases? No. The only thing left is running against this brick wall, their own incompetent politicians, to put pressure on US foreign policy - which they have been trying for the last 60 years.
So i think we need to work together. Of course we should make our politicians fight for this issue. But US citizens have to at least *think* about this issue. Depending on how they decide on this issue they can chose to (or not) put pressure on _their_ representatives about this.
Everything else is just insulting.
I hope i could make myself clear.
Oh, certainly you did make yourself clear. I personally am against a strong US presence in many countries around the world, and I do think it's an issue that deserves more attention than it is getting.
I'm just one person with no political influence. I can't stop my country from what it's doing. Perhaps in eight years, when I graduate from college, I might. But until then, I remain just one extremely well-educated freshman with no way to challenge the army. I can try to argue that it could be worse, can be better with effort. But that's all I personally can do.
Yeah, when I was in, I was generally considered a liberal asshole by most of the people I worked with. I have some very strong opinions about issues the US Military has, internally and politically. It just so happens that I also don't believe in guilt by association.
If we did believe in guilt by association, I'm pretty sure the entire world would be a huge series of smoking craters.
Pretty much the opinion of anyone who happens to read my writing, whether anonymously(which is usually better, my being a 14 year old) or otherwise, but it can be difficult to distinguish political dogma from personal belief at times.
The world would have imploded long by now had that been the case.
On October 09 2011 05:55 Chewbacca. wrote: "Absolutely Inexcusable" "Makes me sad to be an American" "Hang them" "Chemical Castration sounds good"
You people are crazy, you don't even know if they did anything. They were ACCUSED, that doesn't mean they actually did anything. It's like 90% of the people in this thread just completely skipped over those key words.
Looking into it a little bit at least 1 rape would be under forceful rape, ages 18 woman and 21 solider making chemical castration not valid. But in general something like that is either the woman was raped or not raped, if raped was raped by someone looking foreign or a new recruit ir would be wearing his fatigues which would point to the US, and the US military would limit it to people who were off base during the incident and turn that person over for questioning.
The problem with the op is that it doesn't have the 2 separate stories in good detail.
Which basically led to this thread becoming another bash america and their military thread. Until those soldiers are PROVEN guilty, I would hope to see team liquid members be a little more open minded. But that ain't happening since it seems the only thing that they learned in school was how to mindlessly bash america.
I am sorry, but i must reiterate this; This story illustrates the obvious and age old problems that military presence in foreign countries causes in those societies (as well as the colonizing society, in terms of self-image), which is by no means an exclusively American phenomenon. To say that pointing this out amounts to `America bashing` is to imply that American culture, as well as its image in the world, is predicated entirely on military dominance and the exercise of hard power, which i am sure many Americans would resent.
EDIT. As for proof of guilt, i am not aware of any specific evidence, however the circumstantial evidence has to have been there for us to even know about it, also given that there are 2 separate cases, as well as the historical precedent for these types of incidents. Additionally I find it hard to believe that some Korean teens (who by all accounts are reserved and respectful of authority) would concoct a bogus tale in this vein.
People's reactions to this story are quite odd. Do American GI's rape at a higher rate than Koreans? Other Americans? Other foreigners? I am quite certain that every day someone gets raped in Korea by a Korean, and yet these alleged rapes have stirred up a lot of emotions.
If these soldiers did it, then I hope they receive their due punishment. But it sadly says a lot about humans that we instinctly turn it into a tribalistic thing.
On October 09 2011 10:38 domovoi wrote: People's reactions to this story are quite odd. Do American GI's rape at a higher rate than Koreans? Other Americans? Other foreigners? I am quite certain that every day someone gets raped in Korea by a Korean, and yet these alleged rapes have stirred up a lot of emotions.
If these soldiers did it, then I hope they receive their due punishment. But it sadly says a lot about humans that we instinctly turn it into a tribalistic thing.
It's unavoidable, this being the diverse site that it is. This is political issue, and so attracts a lot of fire from all sides.
On October 09 2011 10:38 domovoi wrote: People's reactions to this story are quite odd. Do American GI's rape at a higher rate than Koreans? Other Americans? Other foreigners? I am quite certain that every day someone gets raped in Korea by a Korean, and yet these alleged rapes have stirred up a lot of emotions.
If these soldiers did it, then I hope they receive their due punishment. But it sadly says a lot about humans that we instinctly turn it into a tribalistic thing.
Why?
Why the Red-Herring?
Why the obsession with statistically proving that X people rape more than Y people?
On October 09 2011 10:37 _-NoMaN-_ wrote: This story illustrates the obvious and age old problems that military presence in foreign countries causes in those societies (as well as the colonizing society, in terms of self-image), which is by no means an exclusively American phenomenon. To say that pointing this out amounts to `America bashing` is to imply that American culture, as well as its image in the world, is predicated entirely on military dominance and the exercise of hard power, which i am sure many Americans would resent.
Oh please, there is nothing special about this story except for the fact that it happened to be American GI's. Are you going to tell me a Korean raping another Korean "illustrates the obvious and age old problem" of letting people go out at night? Would you say a foreign tourist raping a Korean "illustrates the obvious and age old problem" of allowing tourists? Immigrants?
Do you have any evidence at all that American GI's rape foreigners at a higher rate than one would expect?
It's disheartening to see a tragedy like this get turned into an opportunity for people to display their gross biases.
On October 09 2011 05:37 MattBarry wrote: It's so stupid for people to get angry about this. 2 Americans does not represent the entire country.
People enjoy being angry nowadays. Remember the EG thing?
It's not angry, it's emotional. Sort of like having such a strong opinion that it must be expressed in pure logic or anger. Nothing wrong about it, just tends to get a little skewed.
On October 09 2011 05:37 MattBarry wrote: It's so stupid for people to get angry about this. 2 Americans does not represent the entire country.
People enjoy being angry nowadays. Remember the EG thing?
It's not angry, it's emotional. Sort of like having such a strong opinion that it must be expressed in pure logic or anger. Nothing wrong about it, just tends to get a little skewed.
Look at what people are arguing about in the thread lol. You can see a lot of this on TL. Hate first, find reason later.
On October 09 2011 10:38 domovoi wrote: People's reactions to this story are quite odd. Do American GI's rape at a higher rate than Koreans? Other Americans? Other foreigners? I am quite certain that every day someone gets raped in Korea by a Korean, and yet these alleged rapes have stirred up a lot of emotions.
If these soldiers did it, then I hope they receive their due punishment. But it sadly says a lot about humans that we instinctly turn it into a tribalistic thing.
Why?
Why the Red-Herring?
Why the obsession with statistically proving that X people rape more than Y people?
It's completely missing the point.
And tribalism wut?
It's not an obsession, it's looking at this situation rationally. If the perpetrators were Koreans, it would be a non-story. If they were immigrants, it would be more of a story but not much of one. If it were tourists, same.
Logically, why should the fact that they were American GI's change our emotional perspective about these rapes? It's because they trigger age-old tribalistic biases (hundreds of thousands of years of human warfare have created an instinctual bias against foreign servicemen). And I wish we would take more effort to get past that.
On October 09 2011 10:37 _-NoMaN-_ wrote: This story illustrates the obvious and age old problems that military presence in foreign countries causes in those societies (as well as the colonizing society, in terms of self-image), which is by no means an exclusively American phenomenon. To say that pointing this out amounts to `America bashing` is to imply that American culture, as well as its image in the world, is predicated entirely on military dominance and the exercise of hard power, which i am sure many Americans would resent.
Oh please, there is nothing special about this story except for the fact that it happened to be American GI's. Are you going to tell me a Korean raping another Korean "illustrates the obvious and age old problem" of letting people go out at night? Would you say a foreign tourist raping a Korean "illustrates the obvious and age old problem" of allowing tourists? Immigrants?
Do you have any evidence at all that American GI's rape foreigners at a higher rate than one would expect?
It's disheartening to see a tragedy like this get turned into an opportunity for people to display their gross biases.
Whether or not American GIs have a higher incident of rape than Korean civilians is not the point.
On October 09 2011 10:37 _-NoMaN-_ wrote: This story illustrates the obvious and age old problems that military presence in foreign countries causes in those societies (as well as the colonizing society, in terms of self-image), which is by no means an exclusively American phenomenon. To say that pointing this out amounts to `America bashing` is to imply that American culture, as well as its image in the world, is predicated entirely on military dominance and the exercise of hard power, which i am sure many Americans would resent.
Oh please, there is nothing special about this story except for the fact that it happened to be American GI's. Are you going to tell me a Korean raping another Korean "illustrates the obvious and age old problem" of letting people go out at night? Would you say a foreign tourist raping a Korean "illustrates the obvious and age old problem" of allowing tourists? Immigrants?
Do you have any evidence at all that American GI's rape foreigners at a higher rate than one would expect?
It's disheartening to see a tragedy like this get turned into an opportunity for people to display their gross biases.
Whether or not American GIs have a higher incident of rape than Korean civilians is not the point.
Why do you insist upon bringing it up?
Why do you insist on bringing Japan up? It's a logical point in an argument.
On October 09 2011 10:38 domovoi wrote: People's reactions to this story are quite odd. Do American GI's rape at a higher rate than Koreans? Other Americans? Other foreigners? I am quite certain that every day someone gets raped in Korea by a Korean, and yet these alleged rapes have stirred up a lot of emotions.
If these soldiers did it, then I hope they receive their due punishment. But it sadly says a lot about humans that we instinctly turn it into a tribalistic thing.
Why? I think he has an opinion he'd like to share. Why the Red-Herring? It's relevant. Why the obsession with statistically proving that X people rape more than Y people? Because it is relevant, being that there is currently no study in place to prove that soldiers commit rape more often. It's completely missing the point. Your point, which is not what I have seen as being a general consensus. And tribalism wut? He's referring to how our discussion turned into a discussion of foreign policy, with two clearly defined side throwing rage at each other...that would probably be you and I.
On October 09 2011 05:55 Chewbacca. wrote: "Absolutely Inexcusable" "Makes me sad to be an American" "Hang them" "Chemical Castration sounds good"
You people are crazy, you don't even know if they did anything. They were ACCUSED, that doesn't mean they actually did anything. It's like 90% of the people in this thread just completely skipped over those key words.
Looking into it a little bit at least 1 rape would be under forceful rape, ages 18 woman and 21 solider making chemical castration not valid. But in general something like that is either the woman was raped or not raped, if raped was raped by someone looking foreign or a new recruit ir would be wearing his fatigues which would point to the US, and the US military would limit it to people who were off base during the incident and turn that person over for questioning.
The problem with the op is that it doesn't have the 2 separate stories in good detail.
Which basically led to this thread becoming another bash america and their military thread. Until those soldiers are PROVEN guilty, I would hope to see team liquid members be a little more open minded. But that ain't happening since it seems the only thing that they learned in school was how to mindlessly bash america.
I am sorry, but i must reiterate this; This story illustrates the obvious and age old problems that military presence in foreign countries causes in those societies (as well as the colonizing society, in terms of self-image), which is by no means an exclusively American phenomenon. To say that pointing this out amounts to `America bashing` is to imply that American culture, as well as its image in the world, is predicated entirely on military dominance and the exercise of hard power, which i am sure many Americans would resent.
Is this problem really caused by our presence in Korea, though? Are these soldiers being driven to rape because they are serving a prolonged military service, or are they just sick human beings? If it's the latter, they would just be here in America, raping American girls instead. I can understand the protests if it is evidenced that they were driven to deviant behavior by the military, but really, there are millions of soldiers in foreign countries who aren't raping young girls. Many are probably helping people, maybe saving a girl from being assaulted instead, but we'll never hear about those stories because they're not sensationalist enough.
On October 09 2011 10:38 domovoi wrote: People's reactions to this story are quite odd. Do American GI's rape at a higher rate than Koreans? Other Americans? Other foreigners? I am quite certain that every day someone gets raped in Korea by a Korean, and yet these alleged rapes have stirred up a lot of emotions.
If these soldiers did it, then I hope they receive their due punishment. But it sadly says a lot about humans that we instinctly turn it into a tribalistic thing.
Why?
Why the Red-Herring?
Why the obsession with statistically proving that X people rape more than Y people?
It's completely missing the point.
And tribalism wut?
It's not an obsession, it's looking at this situation rationally. If the perpetrators were Koreans, it would be a non-story. If they were immigrants, it would be more of a story but not much of one. If it were tourists, same.
Logically, why should the fact that they were American GI's change our emotional perspective about these rapes? It's because they trigger age-old tribalistic biases (hundreds of thousands of years of human warfare have created an instinctual bias against foreign servicemen). And I wish we would take more effort to get past that.
domovoi, you make it seem like it is perfectly normal to have military bases of a foreign power in your country with tens of thousands of military men - as normal as immigrants and tourists? So if that is so normal don't you find it odd that China, Holland, Liechtenstein all don't want to have a miltiary base of their own in the US?
That's the shocking thing. You find military presence all around the world as natural as blue skies. It shows that you don't think about it and have no sensitivity for the issue.
Fuckwad G.I.s' and their presence in both Korea and Japan make me very hesitant on visiting those countries for any period of time (learning both languages so of course I want to fulfill it by making those countries travel destinations for me) because with shit like this, I have no idea how I will be treated. I supposed if I have language competency unlike most of the soldiers over there. I wouldn't blame them for treating me poorly though because of shit like this. :/
Edit: Not exclusively this ofc. But soldiers abroad tend to have bad feelings associated with them because of more minor put offs, but it all adds up and ofc this doesn't help.
Whether or not American GIs have a higher incident of rape than Korean civilians is not the point.
Why do you insist upon bringing it up?
I know it's not the point, and that's the problem. It should be the point. I could understand anger if American GI's have a high tendency to rape Koreans, as that would be a real problem with their presence and would probably mean the American military needs to work a lot harder on discipline. But people are not reacting at any rational inquiry as to whether or not their presence is truly a problem. People are irrationally reacting to deeply ingrained/evolved emotional biases about foreigners, especially foreign armies. And that is a shame.
On October 09 2011 10:37 _-NoMaN-_ wrote: This story illustrates the obvious and age old problems that military presence in foreign countries causes in those societies (as well as the colonizing society, in terms of self-image), which is by no means an exclusively American phenomenon. To say that pointing this out amounts to `America bashing` is to imply that American culture, as well as its image in the world, is predicated entirely on military dominance and the exercise of hard power, which i am sure many Americans would resent.
Oh please, there is nothing special about this story except for the fact that it happened to be American GI's. Are you going to tell me a Korean raping another Korean "illustrates the obvious and age old problem" of letting people go out at night? Would you say a foreign tourist raping a Korean "illustrates the obvious and age old problem" of allowing tourists? Immigrants?
Do you have any evidence at all that American GI's rape foreigners at a higher rate than one would expect?
It's disheartening to see a tragedy like this get turned into an opportunity for people to display their gross biases.
Whether or not American GIs have a higher incident of rape than Korean civilians is not the point.
Why do you insist upon bringing it up?
Why do you insist on bringing Japan up? It's a logical point in an argument.
On October 09 2011 10:38 domovoi wrote: People's reactions to this story are quite odd. Do American GI's rape at a higher rate than Koreans? Other Americans? Other foreigners? I am quite certain that every day someone gets raped in Korea by a Korean, and yet these alleged rapes have stirred up a lot of emotions.
If these soldiers did it, then I hope they receive their due punishment. But it sadly says a lot about humans that we instinctly turn it into a tribalistic thing.
Why? I think he has an opinion he'd like to share. Why the Red-Herring? It's relevant. Why the obsession with statistically proving that X people rape more than Y people? Because it is relevant, being that there is currently no study in place to prove that soldiers commit rape more often. It's completely missing the point. Your point, which is not what I have seen as being a general consensus. And tribalism wut? He's referring to how our discussion turned into a discussion of foreign policy, with two clearly defined side throwing rage at each other...that would probably be you and I.
The Korean public outrage has nothing to do with the fact that American soldiers are statistically more likely to rape than Koreans.
Therefore it is irrelevant from the discussion.
The throw-out of the word 'tribalism' is also strange because BOTH OF US are arguing from the standpoint of the United States.
You give him too much credit, even when speaking on his behalf. Oh wait, that explains it doesn't it?
domovoi, you make it seem like it is perfectly normal to have military bases of a foreign power in your country with tens of thousands of military men - as normal as immigrants and tourists? So if that is so normal don't you find it odd that China, Holland, Liechtenstein all don't want to have a miltiary base of their own in the US?
That's the shocking thing. You find military presence all around the world as natural as blue skies. It shows that you don't think about it and have no sensitivity for the issue.
On October 09 2011 10:38 domovoi wrote: People's reactions to this story are quite odd. Do American GI's rape at a higher rate than Koreans? Other Americans? Other foreigners? I am quite certain that every day someone gets raped in Korea by a Korean, and yet these alleged rapes have stirred up a lot of emotions.
If these soldiers did it, then I hope they receive their due punishment. But it sadly says a lot about humans that we instinctly turn it into a tribalistic thing.
Why?
Why the Red-Herring?
Why the obsession with statistically proving that X people rape more than Y people?
It's completely missing the point.
And tribalism wut?
It's not an obsession, it's looking at this situation rationally. If the perpetrators were Koreans, it would be a non-story. If they were immigrants, it would be more of a story but not much of one. If it were tourists, same.
Logically, why should the fact that they were American GI's change our emotional perspective about these rapes? It's because they trigger age-old tribalistic biases (hundreds of thousands of years of human warfare have created an instinctual bias against foreign servicemen). And I wish we would take more effort to get past that.
I do believe that most people who argue that it is not unusual to have something like this happen realize that they are incapable of changing the system, and therefore choose to support a position within those restrictions that they consider to be morally sound. Acceptance is not ignorance.
I don't like the US having bases all over the world, but I'm a freshman, what can I do other than write my opinion?
Emotions aside, how do both countries law systems handle this sort of crime? Does Korea detain them since the rape (I'm assuming) was committed on Korean soil? Or does the U.S. Military detain them since they basically "own" the soldiers since they are under their command.
And the reason why everyone is pointing out the statistics of which countries soldiers rape more frequently is just to argue that this story proves nothing about American Military and its entirety. As horrible as it is, this is just another story being torn apart by a media frenzy since the circumstances are so uncommon.
Whether or not American GIs have a higher incident of rape than Korean civilians is not the point.
Why do you insist upon bringing it up?
I know it's not the point, and that's the problem. It should be the point. I could understand anger if American GI's have a high tendency to rape Koreans, as that would be a real problem with their presence and would probably mean the American military needs to work a lot harder on discipline. But people are not reacting at any rational inquiry as to whether or not their presence is truly a problem. People are irrationally reacting to deeply ingrained/evolved emotional biases about foreigners, especially foreign armies. And that is a shame.
We're not talking about the legitimacy of cultural stereotypes.
We're talking about outrage stemming from the symbolic implications of American soldiers raping Korean girls on Korean soil.
On October 09 2011 10:50 psheldr wrote: domovoi, you make it seem like it is perfectly normal to have military bases of a foreign power in your country with tens of thousands of military men - as normal as immigrants and tourists? So if that is so normal don't you find it odd that China, Holland, Liechtenstein all don't want to have a miltiary base of their own in the US?
That's the shocking thing. You find military presence all around the world as natural as blue skies. It shows that you don't think about it and have no sensitivity for the issue.
We can have a calm, rational discussion about the efficacy of military presence in Korea (though I would bet the Korean government has no desire to see the American military leave). We can even rationally discuss whether their presence increases rape incidence.
But we are not doing that. All we are doing is exposing biases as a reaction to what appears to be isolated incidents. And only because of the nature of the perpetrators. It's irrational.
I'm kind of amazed at the explosion of anger from some people. Rape is a horrible crime, no doubt.. but things like this happen every day. Some people just have no sense of morality or value.
On October 09 2011 10:55 Consolidate wrote: We're not talking about the legitimacy of cultural stereotypes.
Nor am I.
We're talking about outrage stemming from the symbolic implications of American soldiers raping Korean girls on Korean soil.
Yes, so am I. The very fact it's somehow symbolic despite the lack of any evidence that such incidents are more commonplace than otherwise just goes to show how deep these human biases persist. In a more rational world, it wouldn't be symbolic. There wouldn't be outrage, unless such incidents were systemic. Objective justice would be served, much like any other incident of rape in Korea.
On October 09 2011 10:37 _-NoMaN-_ wrote: This story illustrates the obvious and age old problems that military presence in foreign countries causes in those societies (as well as the colonizing society, in terms of self-image), which is by no means an exclusively American phenomenon. To say that pointing this out amounts to `America bashing` is to imply that American culture, as well as its image in the world, is predicated entirely on military dominance and the exercise of hard power, which i am sure many Americans would resent.
Oh please, there is nothing special about this story except for the fact that it happened to be American GI's. Are you going to tell me a Korean raping another Korean "illustrates the obvious and age old problem" of letting people go out at night? Would you say a foreign tourist raping a Korean "illustrates the obvious and age old problem" of allowing tourists? Immigrants?
Do you have any evidence at all that American GI's rape foreigners at a higher rate than one would expect?
It's disheartening to see a tragedy like this get turned into an opportunity for people to display their gross biases.
Whether or not American GIs have a higher incident of rape than Korean civilians is not the point.
Why do you insist upon bringing it up?
Why do you insist on bringing Japan up? It's a logical point in an argument.
On October 09 2011 10:41 Consolidate wrote:
On October 09 2011 10:38 domovoi wrote: People's reactions to this story are quite odd. Do American GI's rape at a higher rate than Koreans? Other Americans? Other foreigners? I am quite certain that every day someone gets raped in Korea by a Korean, and yet these alleged rapes have stirred up a lot of emotions.
If these soldiers did it, then I hope they receive their due punishment. But it sadly says a lot about humans that we instinctly turn it into a tribalistic thing.
Why? I think he has an opinion he'd like to share. Why the Red-Herring? It's relevant. Why the obsession with statistically proving that X people rape more than Y people? Because it is relevant, being that there is currently no study in place to prove that soldiers commit rape more often. It's completely missing the point. Your point, which is not what I have seen as being a general consensus. And tribalism wut? He's referring to how our discussion turned into a discussion of foreign policy, with two clearly defined side throwing rage at each other...that would probably be you and I.
The Korean public outrage has nothing to do with the fact that American soldiers are statistically more likely to rape than Koreans.
Therefore it is irrelevant from the discussion.
The throw-out of the word 'tribalism' is also strange because BOTH OF US are arguing from the standpoint of the United States.
You give him too much credit, even when speaking on his behalf. Oh wait, that explains it doesn't it?
Contrary to what you appear to be suggesting, there are some people who find that this is not unusual at all. I give him credit for trying to calm this down.
The Korean public outrage is a factor, but the incident itself could potentially suggest greater issues of US foreign policy, which he and I have attempted to address. I might point out that many people brought up the point that the US has bases all over the world and controls many countries, but these people were against such a position. I(and he) were referring to them, not to you.
Tribalism is a political term describing aggression with little restraint, though obviously without the violent context that the word alone implies.
On October 09 2011 10:57 legendre20 wrote: I'm kind of amazed at the explosion of anger from some people. Rape is a horrible crime, no doubt.. but things like this happen every day. Some people just have no sense of morality or value.
The Korean reaction is perfectly understandable.
If Americans were not stationed in Korea, these particular rapes would not have occurred. Same pertains to similar incidents in Japan.
On October 09 2011 10:37 _-NoMaN-_ wrote: This story illustrates the obvious and age old problems that military presence in foreign countries causes in those societies (as well as the colonizing society, in terms of self-image), which is by no means an exclusively American phenomenon. To say that pointing this out amounts to `America bashing` is to imply that American culture, as well as its image in the world, is predicated entirely on military dominance and the exercise of hard power, which i am sure many Americans would resent.
Oh please, there is nothing special about this story except for the fact that it happened to be American GI's. Are you going to tell me a Korean raping another Korean "illustrates the obvious and age old problem" of letting people go out at night? Would you say a foreign tourist raping a Korean "illustrates the obvious and age old problem" of allowing tourists? Immigrants?
Do you have any evidence at all that American GI's rape foreigners at a higher rate than one would expect?
It's disheartening to see a tragedy like this get turned into an opportunity for people to display their gross biases.
Whether or not American GIs have a higher incident of rape than Korean civilians is not the point.
Why do you insist upon bringing it up?
Why do you insist on bringing Japan up? It's a logical point in an argument.
On October 09 2011 10:41 Consolidate wrote:
On October 09 2011 10:38 domovoi wrote: People's reactions to this story are quite odd. Do American GI's rape at a higher rate than Koreans? Other Americans? Other foreigners? I am quite certain that every day someone gets raped in Korea by a Korean, and yet these alleged rapes have stirred up a lot of emotions.
If these soldiers did it, then I hope they receive their due punishment. But it sadly says a lot about humans that we instinctly turn it into a tribalistic thing.
Why? I think he has an opinion he'd like to share. Why the Red-Herring? It's relevant. Why the obsession with statistically proving that X people rape more than Y people? Because it is relevant, being that there is currently no study in place to prove that soldiers commit rape more often. It's completely missing the point. Your point, which is not what I have seen as being a general consensus. And tribalism wut? He's referring to how our discussion turned into a discussion of foreign policy, with two clearly defined side throwing rage at each other...that would probably be you and I.
The Korean public outrage has nothing to do with the fact that American soldiers are statistically more likely to rape than Koreans.
Therefore it is irrelevant from the discussion.
The throw-out of the word 'tribalism' is also strange because BOTH OF US are arguing from the standpoint of the United States.
You give him too much credit, even when speaking on his behalf. Oh wait, that explains it doesn't it?
Contrary to what you appear to be suggesting, there are some people who find that this is not unusual at all. I give him credit for trying to calm this down.
The Korean public outrage is a factor, but the incident itself could potentially suggest greater issues of US foreign policy, which he and I have attempted to address. I might point out that many people brought up the point that the US has bases all over the world and controls many countries, but these people were against such a position. I(and he) were referring to them, not to you.
Tribalism is a political term describing aggression with little restraint, though obviously without the violent context that the word alone implies.
What?
What countries does the United States "control" through its military presence, barring the obvious?
domovoi, you make it seem like it is perfectly normal to have military bases of a foreign power in your country with tens of thousands of military men - as normal as immigrants and tourists? So if that is so normal don't you find it odd that China, Holland, Liechtenstein all don't want to have a miltiary base of their own in the US?
That's the shocking thing. You find military presence all around the world as natural as blue skies. It shows that you don't think about it and have no sensitivity for the issue.
On October 09 2011 10:43 domovoi wrote:
On October 09 2011 10:41 Consolidate wrote:
On October 09 2011 10:38 domovoi wrote: People's reactions to this story are quite odd. Do American GI's rape at a higher rate than Koreans? Other Americans? Other foreigners? I am quite certain that every day someone gets raped in Korea by a Korean, and yet these alleged rapes have stirred up a lot of emotions.
If these soldiers did it, then I hope they receive their due punishment. But it sadly says a lot about humans that we instinctly turn it into a tribalistic thing.
Why?
Why the Red-Herring?
Why the obsession with statistically proving that X people rape more than Y people?
It's completely missing the point.
And tribalism wut?
It's not an obsession, it's looking at this situation rationally. If the perpetrators were Koreans, it would be a non-story. If they were immigrants, it would be more of a story but not much of one. If it were tourists, same.
Logically, why should the fact that they were American GI's change our emotional perspective about these rapes? It's because they trigger age-old tribalistic biases (hundreds of thousands of years of human warfare have created an instinctual bias against foreign servicemen). And I wish we would take more effort to get past that.
I do believe that most people who argue that it is not unusual to have something like this happen realize that they are incapable of changing the system, and therefore choose to support a position within those restrictions that they consider to be morally sound. Acceptance is not ignorance.
I don't like the US having bases all over the world, but I'm a freshman, what can I do other than write my opinion?
Stop having a meta-discussion about the value of your own opinions with regard to affecting real change in the world.
This is an internet forum. No one is going to mistake your comments for think-tank policy.
On October 09 2011 10:37 _-NoMaN-_ wrote: This story illustrates the obvious and age old problems that military presence in foreign countries causes in those societies (as well as the colonizing society, in terms of self-image), which is by no means an exclusively American phenomenon. To say that pointing this out amounts to `America bashing` is to imply that American culture, as well as its image in the world, is predicated entirely on military dominance and the exercise of hard power, which i am sure many Americans would resent.
Oh please, there is nothing special about this story except for the fact that it happened to be American GI's. Are you going to tell me a Korean raping another Korean "illustrates the obvious and age old problem" of letting people go out at night? Would you say a foreign tourist raping a Korean "illustrates the obvious and age old problem" of allowing tourists? Immigrants?
Do you have any evidence at all that American GI's rape foreigners at a higher rate than one would expect?
It's disheartening to see a tragedy like this get turned into an opportunity for people to display their gross biases.
I am sorry, I`m afraid my point was lost. Point being, that the military presence is cause for anti-American sentiment, which is socially destabilizing, rather than that `they raped because they were American soldiers`. However, i will say that these soldiers are in the unenviable position of being stationed in a foreign country with no real job to do, far from family, friends, and girlfriends, and exist in a culture (Military, not Korean) where violence is accepted as a part of their function. This inherent cognitive dissonance, along with a healthy (sic.) dose of liquor and sexual frustration, is a dangerous mix of psychological influences, and should not be ignored.
On October 09 2011 10:57 legendre20 wrote: I'm kind of amazed at the explosion of anger from some people. Rape is a horrible crime, no doubt.. but things like this happen every day. Some people just have no sense of morality or value.
The Korean reaction is perfectly understandable.
If Americans were not stationed in Korea, these particular rapes would not have occurred. Same pertains to similar incidents in Japan.
On October 09 2011 10:37 _-NoMaN-_ wrote: This story illustrates the obvious and age old problems that military presence in foreign countries causes in those societies (as well as the colonizing society, in terms of self-image), which is by no means an exclusively American phenomenon. To say that pointing this out amounts to `America bashing` is to imply that American culture, as well as its image in the world, is predicated entirely on military dominance and the exercise of hard power, which i am sure many Americans would resent.
Oh please, there is nothing special about this story except for the fact that it happened to be American GI's. Are you going to tell me a Korean raping another Korean "illustrates the obvious and age old problem" of letting people go out at night? Would you say a foreign tourist raping a Korean "illustrates the obvious and age old problem" of allowing tourists? Immigrants?
Do you have any evidence at all that American GI's rape foreigners at a higher rate than one would expect?
It's disheartening to see a tragedy like this get turned into an opportunity for people to display their gross biases.
Whether or not American GIs have a higher incident of rape than Korean civilians is not the point.
Why do you insist upon bringing it up?
Why do you insist on bringing Japan up? It's a logical point in an argument.
On October 09 2011 10:41 Consolidate wrote:
On October 09 2011 10:38 domovoi wrote: People's reactions to this story are quite odd. Do American GI's rape at a higher rate than Koreans? Other Americans? Other foreigners? I am quite certain that every day someone gets raped in Korea by a Korean, and yet these alleged rapes have stirred up a lot of emotions.
If these soldiers did it, then I hope they receive their due punishment. But it sadly says a lot about humans that we instinctly turn it into a tribalistic thing.
Why? I think he has an opinion he'd like to share. Why the Red-Herring? It's relevant. Why the obsession with statistically proving that X people rape more than Y people? Because it is relevant, being that there is currently no study in place to prove that soldiers commit rape more often. It's completely missing the point. Your point, which is not what I have seen as being a general consensus. And tribalism wut? He's referring to how our discussion turned into a discussion of foreign policy, with two clearly defined side throwing rage at each other...that would probably be you and I.
The Korean public outrage has nothing to do with the fact that American soldiers are statistically more likely to rape than Koreans.
Therefore it is irrelevant from the discussion.
The throw-out of the word 'tribalism' is also strange because BOTH OF US are arguing from the standpoint of the United States.
You give him too much credit, even when speaking on his behalf. Oh wait, that explains it doesn't it?
Contrary to what you appear to be suggesting, there are some people who find that this is not unusual at all. I give him credit for trying to calm this down.
The Korean public outrage is a factor, but the incident itself could potentially suggest greater issues of US foreign policy, which he and I have attempted to address. I might point out that many people brought up the point that the US has bases all over the world and controls many countries, but these people were against such a position. I(and he) were referring to them, not to you.
Tribalism is a political term describing aggression with little restraint, though obviously without the violent context that the word alone implies.
What?
What countries does the United States "control" through its military presence, barring the obvious?
Consolidate made a solid point that Korea and Japan must kowtow to the US because of its military presence. Not what I personally would have described it, but...
We're talking about outrage stemming from the symbolic implications of American soldiers raping Korean girls on Korean soil.
Yes, so am I. The very fact it's somehow symbolic despite the lack of any evidence that such incidents are more commonplace than otherwise just goes to show how deep these human biases persist. In a more rational world, it wouldn't be symbolic. There wouldn't be outrage, unless such incidents were systemic. Objective justice would be served, much like any other incident of rape in Korea.
Whether or not is is commonplace is not the issue.
Here's an extreme example of your curious logic:
When 9/11 happened, were Americans outraged because Saudi Arabian terrorist attacks were commonplace?
On October 09 2011 10:57 legendre20 wrote: I'm kind of amazed at the explosion of anger from some people. Rape is a horrible crime, no doubt.. but things like this happen every day. Some people just have no sense of morality or value.
The Korean reaction is perfectly understandable.
If Americans were not stationed in Korea, these particular rapes would not have occurred. Same pertains to similar incidents in Japan.
On October 09 2011 10:59 PraetorialGamer wrote:
On October 09 2011 10:53 Consolidate wrote:
On October 09 2011 10:47 PraetorialGamer wrote:
On October 09 2011 10:45 Consolidate wrote:
On October 09 2011 10:41 domovoi wrote:
On October 09 2011 10:37 _-NoMaN-_ wrote: This story illustrates the obvious and age old problems that military presence in foreign countries causes in those societies (as well as the colonizing society, in terms of self-image), which is by no means an exclusively American phenomenon. To say that pointing this out amounts to `America bashing` is to imply that American culture, as well as its image in the world, is predicated entirely on military dominance and the exercise of hard power, which i am sure many Americans would resent.
Oh please, there is nothing special about this story except for the fact that it happened to be American GI's. Are you going to tell me a Korean raping another Korean "illustrates the obvious and age old problem" of letting people go out at night? Would you say a foreign tourist raping a Korean "illustrates the obvious and age old problem" of allowing tourists? Immigrants?
Do you have any evidence at all that American GI's rape foreigners at a higher rate than one would expect?
It's disheartening to see a tragedy like this get turned into an opportunity for people to display their gross biases.
Whether or not American GIs have a higher incident of rape than Korean civilians is not the point.
Why do you insist upon bringing it up?
Why do you insist on bringing Japan up? It's a logical point in an argument.
On October 09 2011 10:41 Consolidate wrote:
On October 09 2011 10:38 domovoi wrote: People's reactions to this story are quite odd. Do American GI's rape at a higher rate than Koreans? Other Americans? Other foreigners? I am quite certain that every day someone gets raped in Korea by a Korean, and yet these alleged rapes have stirred up a lot of emotions.
If these soldiers did it, then I hope they receive their due punishment. But it sadly says a lot about humans that we instinctly turn it into a tribalistic thing.
Why? I think he has an opinion he'd like to share. Why the Red-Herring? It's relevant. Why the obsession with statistically proving that X people rape more than Y people? Because it is relevant, being that there is currently no study in place to prove that soldiers commit rape more often. It's completely missing the point. Your point, which is not what I have seen as being a general consensus. And tribalism wut? He's referring to how our discussion turned into a discussion of foreign policy, with two clearly defined side throwing rage at each other...that would probably be you and I.
The Korean public outrage has nothing to do with the fact that American soldiers are statistically more likely to rape than Koreans.
Therefore it is irrelevant from the discussion.
The throw-out of the word 'tribalism' is also strange because BOTH OF US are arguing from the standpoint of the United States.
You give him too much credit, even when speaking on his behalf. Oh wait, that explains it doesn't it?
Contrary to what you appear to be suggesting, there are some people who find that this is not unusual at all. I give him credit for trying to calm this down.
The Korean public outrage is a factor, but the incident itself could potentially suggest greater issues of US foreign policy, which he and I have attempted to address. I might point out that many people brought up the point that the US has bases all over the world and controls many countries, but these people were against such a position. I(and he) were referring to them, not to you.
Tribalism is a political term describing aggression with little restraint, though obviously without the violent context that the word alone implies.
What?
What countries does the United States "control" through its military presence, barring the obvious?
Consolidate made a solid point that Korea and Japan must kowtow to the US because of its military presence. Not what I personally would have described it, but...
This isn't the 1950s.
American military presence doesn't control Japanese nor Korean policy.
@Elegy: Yes, you're right. I should have made it specific about people on TL or "non-koreans".. If I was a Korean I'd be pretty pissed too. Although we do have a reason to be there... but that's a different subject all together. *cough* North Korea..
domovoi, you make it seem like it is perfectly normal to have military bases of a foreign power in your country with tens of thousands of military men - as normal as immigrants and tourists? So if that is so normal don't you find it odd that China, Holland, Liechtenstein all don't want to have a miltiary base of their own in the US?
That's the shocking thing. You find military presence all around the world as natural as blue skies. It shows that you don't think about it and have no sensitivity for the issue.
On October 09 2011 10:43 domovoi wrote:
On October 09 2011 10:41 Consolidate wrote:
On October 09 2011 10:38 domovoi wrote: People's reactions to this story are quite odd. Do American GI's rape at a higher rate than Koreans? Other Americans? Other foreigners? I am quite certain that every day someone gets raped in Korea by a Korean, and yet these alleged rapes have stirred up a lot of emotions.
If these soldiers did it, then I hope they receive their due punishment. But it sadly says a lot about humans that we instinctly turn it into a tribalistic thing.
Why?
Why the Red-Herring?
Why the obsession with statistically proving that X people rape more than Y people?
It's completely missing the point.
And tribalism wut?
It's not an obsession, it's looking at this situation rationally. If the perpetrators were Koreans, it would be a non-story. If they were immigrants, it would be more of a story but not much of one. If it were tourists, same.
Logically, why should the fact that they were American GI's change our emotional perspective about these rapes? It's because they trigger age-old tribalistic biases (hundreds of thousands of years of human warfare have created an instinctual bias against foreign servicemen). And I wish we would take more effort to get past that.
I do believe that most people who argue that it is not unusual to have something like this happen realize that they are incapable of changing the system, and therefore choose to support a position within those restrictions that they consider to be morally sound. Acceptance is not ignorance.
I don't like the US having bases all over the world, but I'm a freshman, what can I do other than write my opinion?
Stop having a meta-discussion about the value of your own opinions with regard to affecting real change in the world.
This is an internet forum. No one is going to mistake your comments for think-tank policy.
Nor yours, but we're still having this discussion. I can find faults in your argument, you in mine.
By turning making a comment about the phrasing of my questions without any apparent regard for what any other poster on this thread has said, you are displaying a good amount of your regard for your own opinions. Change in the world was talked about. Opinions on the military were talked about. Tales were told of direct contact with objects of significance to this news story.
On October 09 2011 10:57 legendre20 wrote: I'm kind of amazed at the explosion of anger from some people. Rape is a horrible crime, no doubt.. but things like this happen every day. Some people just have no sense of morality or value.
The Korean reaction is perfectly understandable.
If Americans were not stationed in Korea, these particular rapes would not have occurred. Same pertains to similar incidents in Japan.
On October 09 2011 10:59 PraetorialGamer wrote:
On October 09 2011 10:53 Consolidate wrote:
On October 09 2011 10:47 PraetorialGamer wrote:
On October 09 2011 10:45 Consolidate wrote:
On October 09 2011 10:41 domovoi wrote:
On October 09 2011 10:37 _-NoMaN-_ wrote: This story illustrates the obvious and age old problems that military presence in foreign countries causes in those societies (as well as the colonizing society, in terms of self-image), which is by no means an exclusively American phenomenon. To say that pointing this out amounts to `America bashing` is to imply that American culture, as well as its image in the world, is predicated entirely on military dominance and the exercise of hard power, which i am sure many Americans would resent.
Oh please, there is nothing special about this story except for the fact that it happened to be American GI's. Are you going to tell me a Korean raping another Korean "illustrates the obvious and age old problem" of letting people go out at night? Would you say a foreign tourist raping a Korean "illustrates the obvious and age old problem" of allowing tourists? Immigrants?
Do you have any evidence at all that American GI's rape foreigners at a higher rate than one would expect?
It's disheartening to see a tragedy like this get turned into an opportunity for people to display their gross biases.
Whether or not American GIs have a higher incident of rape than Korean civilians is not the point.
Why do you insist upon bringing it up?
Why do you insist on bringing Japan up? It's a logical point in an argument.
On October 09 2011 10:41 Consolidate wrote:
On October 09 2011 10:38 domovoi wrote: People's reactions to this story are quite odd. Do American GI's rape at a higher rate than Koreans? Other Americans? Other foreigners? I am quite certain that every day someone gets raped in Korea by a Korean, and yet these alleged rapes have stirred up a lot of emotions.
If these soldiers did it, then I hope they receive their due punishment. But it sadly says a lot about humans that we instinctly turn it into a tribalistic thing.
Why? I think he has an opinion he'd like to share. Why the Red-Herring? It's relevant. Why the obsession with statistically proving that X people rape more than Y people? Because it is relevant, being that there is currently no study in place to prove that soldiers commit rape more often. It's completely missing the point. Your point, which is not what I have seen as being a general consensus. And tribalism wut? He's referring to how our discussion turned into a discussion of foreign policy, with two clearly defined side throwing rage at each other...that would probably be you and I.
The Korean public outrage has nothing to do with the fact that American soldiers are statistically more likely to rape than Koreans.
Therefore it is irrelevant from the discussion.
The throw-out of the word 'tribalism' is also strange because BOTH OF US are arguing from the standpoint of the United States.
You give him too much credit, even when speaking on his behalf. Oh wait, that explains it doesn't it?
Contrary to what you appear to be suggesting, there are some people who find that this is not unusual at all. I give him credit for trying to calm this down.
The Korean public outrage is a factor, but the incident itself could potentially suggest greater issues of US foreign policy, which he and I have attempted to address. I might point out that many people brought up the point that the US has bases all over the world and controls many countries, but these people were against such a position. I(and he) were referring to them, not to you.
Tribalism is a political term describing aggression with little restraint, though obviously without the violent context that the word alone implies.
What?
What countries does the United States "control" through its military presence, barring the obvious?
Consolidate made a solid point that Korea and Japan must kowtow to the US because of its military presence. Not what I personally would have described it, but...
This isn't the 1950s.
American military presence doesn't control Japanese nor Korean policy.
As I said, "many people", or more accurately several people, said it. I did not.
On October 09 2011 10:55 Consolidate wrote: We're not talking about the legitimacy of cultural stereotypes.
Nor am I.
We're talking about outrage stemming from the symbolic implications of American soldiers raping Korean girls on Korean soil.
Yes, so am I. The very fact it's somehow symbolic despite the lack of any evidence that such incidents are more commonplace than otherwise just goes to show how deep these human biases persist. In a more rational world, it wouldn't be symbolic. There wouldn't be outrage, unless such incidents were systemic. Objective justice would be served, much like any other incident of rape in Korea.
Whether or not is is commonplace is not the issue.
Here's an extreme example of your curious logic:
When 9/11 happened, were Americans outraged because Saudi Arabian terrorist attacks were commonplace?
Or were they outraged simply because it happened?
Uhm, that's a terrible example. Something that's large enough to make international news no matter who does it, and something that ONLY makes international news because of who does it are different types of incidents.
Nobody would be talking about this if Koreans had raped Koreans. It only matters to anyone because they get the opportunity to attack Americans and/or our military through guilt by association.
So are people angry that people got raped? Or are people angry because 2 Americans did it? Or because 2 soldiers did it? Or because 2 men did it? Or because the victims were Koreans? Or because the victims were females?
On October 09 2011 11:10 pt wrote: So are people angry that people got raped? Or are people angry because 2 Americans did it? Or because 2 soldiers did it? Or because 2 men did it? Or because the victims were Koreans? Or because the victims were females?
Mostly because they were American soldiers, the race issue got dropped pretty early.
On October 09 2011 11:10 levarien11111 wrote: nothing we havn't seen before people who are retarded enough to generalize a population based on 2 people raping people without any details whatsoever
Happens a lot on TL. There are more people who do this than you think.
domovoi, you make it seem like it is perfectly normal to have military bases of a foreign power in your country with tens of thousands of military men - as normal as immigrants and tourists? So if that is so normal don't you find it odd that China, Holland, Liechtenstein all don't want to have a miltiary base of their own in the US?
That's the shocking thing. You find military presence all around the world as natural as blue skies. It shows that you don't think about it and have no sensitivity for the issue.
On October 09 2011 10:43 domovoi wrote:
On October 09 2011 10:41 Consolidate wrote:
On October 09 2011 10:38 domovoi wrote: People's reactions to this story are quite odd. Do American GI's rape at a higher rate than Koreans? Other Americans? Other foreigners? I am quite certain that every day someone gets raped in Korea by a Korean, and yet these alleged rapes have stirred up a lot of emotions.
If these soldiers did it, then I hope they receive their due punishment. But it sadly says a lot about humans that we instinctly turn it into a tribalistic thing.
Why?
Why the Red-Herring?
Why the obsession with statistically proving that X people rape more than Y people?
It's completely missing the point.
And tribalism wut?
It's not an obsession, it's looking at this situation rationally. If the perpetrators were Koreans, it would be a non-story. If they were immigrants, it would be more of a story but not much of one. If it were tourists, same.
Logically, why should the fact that they were American GI's change our emotional perspective about these rapes? It's because they trigger age-old tribalistic biases (hundreds of thousands of years of human warfare have created an instinctual bias against foreign servicemen). And I wish we would take more effort to get past that.
I do believe that most people who argue that it is not unusual to have something like this happen realize that they are incapable of changing the system, and therefore choose to support a position within those restrictions that they consider to be morally sound. Acceptance is not ignorance.
I don't like the US having bases all over the world, but I'm a freshman, what can I do other than write my opinion?
Stop having a meta-discussion about the value of your own opinions with regard to affecting real change in the world.
This is an internet forum. No one is going to mistake your comments for think-tank policy.
Nor yours, but we're still having this discussion. I can find faults in your argument, you in mine.
By turning making a comment about the phrasing of my questions without any apparent regard for what any other poster on this thread has said, you are displaying a good amount of your regard for your own opinions. Change in the world was talked about. Opinions on the military were talked about. Tales were told of direct contact with objects of significance to this news story.
But you didn't read any of that...did you?
Should I? Or does it contain more of your waxing poetically on the merits of your own discussions?
On October 09 2011 11:10 pt wrote: So are people angry that people got raped? Or are people angry because 2 Americans did it? Or because 2 soldiers did it? Or because 2 men did it? Or because the victims were Koreans? Or because the victims were females?
Mostly because they were American soldiers, the race issue got dropped pretty early.
Yeah and it is justified anger imo because to the world, the US Army has a big influence on what other countries think of us. Not to mention the crime is despicable anyways.
I'm just ridiculing those who dismissing this entire topic as an ordinary crime of trivial importance.
No crime is "ordinary", but this one wasn't extraordinary either. Basically, you're using these girls getting raped as an excuse to wage a personal moral crusade against the establishment of military bases in other countries. I don't know why exactly, but that's what you're doing. Then you claim the military is actually, actively involved in the protection of rapists, and talk about a few incidents that happened sporadically over the past decade or so, without any mention or thought to the other possible hundreds that you didn't hear about, that don't do anything to support your claim of bias from the military. There's actually little chance you'd head about some military case that ended with a guilty verdict, because it probably happens frequently.
Why does everything seem to simple to you?
I don't give a hoot about the morality of rape or US bases on foreign soil.
All I'm saying is that this type of event has wider-ranging consequences than joe schmo (Klipsys), can comprehend even on good-brain days.
Except that was never your position, and you only now narrowly being to explain what your whole point was.
Whether or not is is commonplace is not the issue.
I'm not sure why you keep missing my point. I know it's not the issue. It should be the issue, if there's going to be any issue at all.
When 9/11 happened, were Americans outraged because Saudi Arabian terrorist attacks were commonplace?
Or were they outraged simply because it happened?
Are Koreans outraged because two girls were raped? No. They are outraged because it happens to be American GI's who allegedly raped them.
Were Americans outraged by 9/11 because it happened to be perpetrated by foreign Arabs? Americans probably would have been outraged had it been the Irish or a white American (e.g. Oklahoma city bombing), but you could certainly make a good case that tribalism caused Americans to be more outraged by 9/11 than similar incidents.
On October 09 2011 10:55 Consolidate wrote: We're not talking about the legitimacy of cultural stereotypes.
Nor am I.
We're talking about outrage stemming from the symbolic implications of American soldiers raping Korean girls on Korean soil.
Yes, so am I. The very fact it's somehow symbolic despite the lack of any evidence that such incidents are more commonplace than otherwise just goes to show how deep these human biases persist. In a more rational world, it wouldn't be symbolic. There wouldn't be outrage, unless such incidents were systemic. Objective justice would be served, much like any other incident of rape in Korea.
Whether or not is is commonplace is not the issue.
Here's an extreme example of your curious logic:
When 9/11 happened, were Americans outraged because Saudi Arabian terrorist attacks were commonplace?
Or were they outraged simply because it happened?
Uhm, that's a terrible example. Something that's large enough to make international news no matter who does it, and something that ONLY makes international news because of who does it are different types of incidents.
Nobody would be talking about this if Koreans had raped Koreans. It only matters to anyone because they get the opportunity to attack Americans and/or our military through guilt by association.
Nope. It's actually a pretty good example of your terrible logic.
The 'who' is indeed very important in this case.
So what?
Why does it need to be commonplace for it to be an outrage?
domovoi, you make it seem like it is perfectly normal to have military bases of a foreign power in your country with tens of thousands of military men - as normal as immigrants and tourists? So if that is so normal don't you find it odd that China, Holland, Liechtenstein all don't want to have a miltiary base of their own in the US?
That's the shocking thing. You find military presence all around the world as natural as blue skies. It shows that you don't think about it and have no sensitivity for the issue.
On October 09 2011 10:43 domovoi wrote:
On October 09 2011 10:41 Consolidate wrote:
On October 09 2011 10:38 domovoi wrote: People's reactions to this story are quite odd. Do American GI's rape at a higher rate than Koreans? Other Americans? Other foreigners? I am quite certain that every day someone gets raped in Korea by a Korean, and yet these alleged rapes have stirred up a lot of emotions.
If these soldiers did it, then I hope they receive their due punishment. But it sadly says a lot about humans that we instinctly turn it into a tribalistic thing.
Why?
Why the Red-Herring?
Why the obsession with statistically proving that X people rape more than Y people?
It's completely missing the point.
And tribalism wut?
It's not an obsession, it's looking at this situation rationally. If the perpetrators were Koreans, it would be a non-story. If they were immigrants, it would be more of a story but not much of one. If it were tourists, same.
Logically, why should the fact that they were American GI's change our emotional perspective about these rapes? It's because they trigger age-old tribalistic biases (hundreds of thousands of years of human warfare have created an instinctual bias against foreign servicemen). And I wish we would take more effort to get past that.
I do believe that most people who argue that it is not unusual to have something like this happen realize that they are incapable of changing the system, and therefore choose to support a position within those restrictions that they consider to be morally sound. Acceptance is not ignorance.
I don't like the US having bases all over the world, but I'm a freshman, what can I do other than write my opinion?
Stop having a meta-discussion about the value of your own opinions with regard to affecting real change in the world.
This is an internet forum. No one is going to mistake your comments for think-tank policy.
Nor yours, but we're still having this discussion. I can find faults in your argument, you in mine.
By turning making a comment about the phrasing of my questions without any apparent regard for what any other poster on this thread has said, you are displaying a good amount of your regard for your own opinions. Change in the world was talked about. Opinions on the military were talked about. Tales were told of direct contact with objects of significance to this news story.
But you didn't read any of that...did you?
Should I? Or does it contain more of your waxing poetically on the merits of your own discussions?
I get the impression from most Koreans that they don't like them, and don't want them here. I've heard plenty of stories from Koreans I've met here about how American soldiers have raped girls and gotten away with it.
Nope. It's actually a pretty good example of your terrible logic.
The 'who' is indeed very important in this case.
So what?
Why does it need to be commonplace for it to be an outrage?
It's not that hard to understand. Ask yourself, why should the "who" be very important in this case? Is it because military presence increases incidents of rape? If not, what reason is there to be more outraged than any other incident of rape?
I understand perfectly that the "who" does happen to be very important to those who are outraged. I think they are not being rational. Similarly, I think people who focus on crimes committed by illegal immigrants reflects their own xenophobia.
On October 09 2011 11:18 Devilgoat wrote: I get the impression from most Koreans that they don't like them, and don't want them here. I've heard plenty of stories from Koreans I've met here about how American soldiers have raped girls and gotten away with it.
Really hoping nobody mistakes me for one. ^.^
Does it affect how they view civilian Americans? I want to visit Korea to both have fun and better my language skills. Do they tend to generalize or is it a case by case basis?
On October 09 2011 10:55 Consolidate wrote: We're not talking about the legitimacy of cultural stereotypes.
Nor am I.
We're talking about outrage stemming from the symbolic implications of American soldiers raping Korean girls on Korean soil.
Yes, so am I. The very fact it's somehow symbolic despite the lack of any evidence that such incidents are more commonplace than otherwise just goes to show how deep these human biases persist. In a more rational world, it wouldn't be symbolic. There wouldn't be outrage, unless such incidents were systemic. Objective justice would be served, much like any other incident of rape in Korea.
Whether or not is is commonplace is not the issue.
Here's an extreme example of your curious logic:
When 9/11 happened, were Americans outraged because Saudi Arabian terrorist attacks were commonplace?
Or were they outraged simply because it happened?
Uhm, that's a terrible example. Something that's large enough to make international news no matter who does it, and something that ONLY makes international news because of who does it are different types of incidents.
Nobody would be talking about this if Koreans had raped Koreans. It only matters to anyone because they get the opportunity to attack Americans and/or our military through guilt by association.
Nope. It's actually a pretty good example of your terrible logic.
The 'who' is indeed very important in this case.
So what?
Why does it need to be commonplace for it to be an outrage?
My terrible logic? Terrorism on that scale, foreign or domestic, is going to be headline news all over. Remember Norway a couple months ago? That was domestic terrorism, and Americans still knew about it.
On the other hand, I don't see major news stories about Koreans raping Koreans. I do see them for Americans raping Koreans. If you're incapable of recognizing the difference, I won't waste any more time explaining, because it's actually rather simple logic.
If people consider a fairly major crime to be international news when it promotes a political agenda, but ignore it when it doesn't, that's a double standard. If it's international news either way, no issue, and no similarity.
Nope. It's actually a pretty good example of your terrible logic.
The 'who' is indeed very important in this case.
So what?
Why does it need to be commonplace for it to be an outrage?
It's not that hard to understand. Ask yourself, why should the "who" be very important in this case? Is it because military presence increases incidents of rape? If not, what reason is there to be more outraged than any other incident of rape?
I understand perfectly that the "who" does happen to be very important to those who are outraged. I think they are not being rational. Similarly, I think people who focus on crimes committed by illegal immigrants reflects their own xenophobia.
I'm not saying the outrage is 'justified', just that it shouldn't surprise anyone at all.
I understand WHY they're angry, and I don't see the point of determining the necessarily conditions required so they SHOULD be angry.
It's much more interesting to talk about the former, because that discussion is based reality and can reveal practical policy. The latter is just people on TL being angry that other people are angry when they don't meet the standards of their own anger.
On October 09 2011 10:55 Consolidate wrote: We're not talking about the legitimacy of cultural stereotypes.
Nor am I.
We're talking about outrage stemming from the symbolic implications of American soldiers raping Korean girls on Korean soil.
Yes, so am I. The very fact it's somehow symbolic despite the lack of any evidence that such incidents are more commonplace than otherwise just goes to show how deep these human biases persist. In a more rational world, it wouldn't be symbolic. There wouldn't be outrage, unless such incidents were systemic. Objective justice would be served, much like any other incident of rape in Korea.
Whether or not is is commonplace is not the issue.
Here's an extreme example of your curious logic:
When 9/11 happened, were Americans outraged because Saudi Arabian terrorist attacks were commonplace?
Or were they outraged simply because it happened?
Uhm, that's a terrible example. Something that's large enough to make international news no matter who does it, and something that ONLY makes international news because of who does it are different types of incidents.
Nobody would be talking about this if Koreans had raped Koreans. It only matters to anyone because they get the opportunity to attack Americans and/or our military through guilt by association.
Nope. It's actually a pretty good example of your terrible logic.
The 'who' is indeed very important in this case.
So what?
Why does it need to be commonplace for it to be an outrage?
My terrible logic? Terrorism on that scale, foreign or domestic, is going to be headline news all over. Remember Norway a couple months ago? That was domestic terrorism, and Americans still knew about it.
On the other hand, I don't see major news stories about Koreans raping Koreans. I do see them for Americans raping Koreans. If you're incapable of recognizing the difference, I won't waste any more time explaining, because it's actually rather simple logic.
If people consider a fairly major crime to be international news when it promotes a political agenda, but ignore it when it doesn't, that's a double standard. If it's international news either way, no issue, and no similarity.
NOTE:
There are often stories about the prevalence of Rape in South Africa presented as a SYSTEMIC PROBLEM.
This story of Americans raping Korean teenagers IS NOT PRESENTED AS A SYSTEMIC PROBLEM.
So why the fuck are you trying to prove that which is obviously not implied.
I'm not saying the outrage is 'justified', just that it shouldn't surprise anyone at all.
I understand WHY they're angry, and I don't see the point of determining the necessarily conditions required so they SHOULD be angry.
It's much more interesting to talk about the former, because that discussion is based reality and can reveal practical policy. The latter is just people on TL being angry that other people are angry when they don't meet the standards of their own anger.
From a "practical" perspective, discussing policy on TL.net has absolutely zero effect on policy. On the other hand, my criticisms against irrationality being displayed in this thread encourages people to be more rational. I'm certain the effect is minute, but at least it's of some use.
I'm not saying the outrage is 'justified', just that it shouldn't surprise anyone at all.
I understand WHY they're angry, and I don't see the point of determining the necessarily conditions required so they SHOULD be angry.
It's much more interesting to talk about the former, because that discussion is based reality and can reveal practical policy. The latter is just people on TL being angry that other people are angry when they don't meet the standards of their own anger.
From a "practical" perspective, discussing policy on TL.net has absolutely zero effect on policy. On the other hand, my criticisms against irrationality being displayed in this thread encourages people to be more rational. I'm certain the effect is minute, but at least it's of some use.
I believe I already made clear my thoughts about the meta-usefulness of discussion of anything at all on internet forums.
You point is that people are irrational. They are angry when they shouldn't be.
So from what a friend tells me, these types of news gets forgotten over the course of a few days or maybe even a month because of how common rape incidents show up on the news . Apparently sexual violence is big or something? Obviously talk about the American military is a problem too.
This is just from one person of course but here you go. He's telling me a bunch of things lol
I'm not saying the outrage is 'justified', just that it shouldn't surprise anyone at all.
I understand WHY they're angry, and I don't see the point of determining the necessarily conditions required so they SHOULD be angry.
It's much more interesting to talk about the former, because that discussion is based reality and can reveal practical policy. The latter is just people on TL being angry that other people are angry when they don't meet the standards of their own anger.
From a "practical" perspective, discussing policy on TL.net has absolutely zero effect on policy. On the other hand, my criticisms against irrationality being displayed in this thread encourages people to be more rational. I'm certain the effect is minute, but at least it's of some use.
I believe I already made clear my thoughts about the meta-usefulness of discussion of anything at all on internet forums.
And yet your very first response to me was an attempt to cut-off a perfectly relevant avenue of inquiry. How meta of you.
You point is that people are irrational. They are angry when they shouldn't be.
How novel.
Ironic that you've foregone debating the substantive points and have resorted to a meta-argument about the "novelty" of my points, as if that were relevant at all.
If you want to talk about the political ramifications of Korean outrage, please feel free to, nobody's stopping you. That doesn't mean the irrationality of making baseless, emotional conclusions about military presence in Korea from isolated, though tragic, incidents is off-limits from discussion.
On October 09 2011 05:29 Emporio wrote: Do soldiers rape more often than the average person or is it just that Hess cases are way more publicized? Because I feel like every place soldiers are stationed for extended periods of time, you hear about someone raping a local. And I know that this doesn't apply to every soldier, or even rhe majority of them and there is probably a strong attraction of military careers to people who maybe have social problems.
I don't have any statistics to back this up, but I did serve in the military. I believe it just gets more attention due to the position of the individuals. With that being said some of the people I served with... I wouldn't doubt they are capable of anything.
I'm not saying the outrage is 'justified', just that it shouldn't surprise anyone at all.
I understand WHY they're angry, and I don't see the point of determining the necessarily conditions required so they SHOULD be angry.
It's much more interesting to talk about the former, because that discussion is based reality and can reveal practical policy. The latter is just people on TL being angry that other people are angry when they don't meet the standards of their own anger.
From a "practical" perspective, discussing policy on TL.net has absolutely zero effect on policy. On the other hand, my criticisms against irrationality being displayed in this thread encourages people to be more rational. I'm certain the effect is minute, but at least it's of some use.
I believe I already made clear my thoughts about the meta-usefulness of discussion of anything at all on internet forums.
And yet your very first response to me was an attempt to cut-off a perfectly relevant avenue of inquiry. How meta of you.
You point is that people are irrational. They are angry when they shouldn't be.
How novel.
Ironic that you've foregone debating the substantive points and have resorted to a meta-argument about the "novelty" of my points, as if that were relevant at all.
If you want to talk about the political ramifications of Korean outrage, please feel free to, nobody's stopping you. That doesn't mean the irrationality of making baseless, emotional conclusions about military presence in Korea from isolated, though tragic, incidents is off-limits from discussion.
My comment about the quaintness of your opinion was a facetious remark, it was not actually about the novelty of your points.
Once and for all:
Why they are angry is by far a more interesting and fruitful path of discussion than: 'They shouldn't be angry because of statistics'.
Do soldiers rape more often than the average person or is it just that Hess cases are way more publicized? Because I feel like every place soldiers are stationed for extended periods of time, you hear about someone raping a local. And I know that this doesn't apply to every soldier, or even rhe majority of them and there is probably a strong attraction of military careers to people who maybe have social problems.
To place military rape rates in context, it is valuable to compare them with civilian rates. Comparisons of the crime rates of civilian and military populations during peacetime periods in 1986–92 reveal that contemporary peacetime rates of rape by American military personnel are actually lower (controlling for age and gender) than civilian rates. However, the data also indicate that peacetime military rape rates are diminished far less from civilian rates than are military rates for other violent offenses. This “rape differential” is also reflected in the World War II data: U.S. Army rape rates in Europe climbed to several times the U.S. civilian rates for that period, while military rates for other violent crimes were roughly equivalent to civilian rates. Thus, in both contexts studied, a rape differential exists: the ratio of military rape rates to civilian rape rates is substantially larger than the ratio of military rates to civilian rates for other violent crimes.
So basically, at least for Americans, soldiers commit less rapes than civilians in peacetime and more rapes than civilians in wartime. Which is what you'd expect I guess.
It's preposterous to think that these crimes were a result of the US Army being stationed in Korea. Rather, if we contemplate simple demographic statistics, as bad as it sounds, people are likely to be raped in a civilization, regardless of the nationality/job of the assailant and victim. However, the fact that it happened twice will undoubtedly make the issue quite a big deal larger. I suppose my point is that you can't really add this into the equation when weigh pros and cons of US occupancy. To be quite honest, the S. Korea - America bond is one of the strongest alliances in the modern era, and our dependence upon one another outweighs these unfortunate 'collateral damages' if you will. Just indict the dregs of military society, and if found guilty, remove them from said society and resume productivity in my opinion.
On October 09 2011 05:30 Bleak wrote: Wow, there are still 50.000 soldiers in Japan. I guess once US enters somewhere they don't ever go back.
Japan isn't really the typical case. Look into what was decided after WW2 regarding the role of Japan in the world.
Couple of things that need pointing out here. 1) This is absolutely the normal case. The United States has always left troops stationed in a country they have defeated in a war. (Note Germany, Italy, Russia is actually an exception, as they were an ally at the end of the war. You will see the same thing in Iraq and Afghanistan. This is a constant through U.S. History.
Oh I agree with this.
I'm just saying Japan is particularly high on the list (and Germany) compared to most other countries (except for those very recently in the news: Iraq/Afghanistan). The USA also ensured certain limitations were imposed on certain countries (Japan) and not others.
What I don't understand is why the soldiers have to physically be there. It's not like modern technology doesn't allow you to travel there in a heartbeat anyway if a full out war would break out.
I'm not being critical of it or anything, I'd just like someone with some insight to answere it for me, because the NK threat seems irrelevant. Or are they all sailors and pilots for ships and aircraft carriers docked there?
Edit: The armed forces in a foreign country will always be representatives for the nation. I don't quite understand what benefit they are for either country considering they sooner or later are bound to do something stupid, and that'll just negatively affect relations.
Motherfuckers should be executed on TV live after they were given a chance to beg for forgiveness. Bullet to the head and cover that trash with some dirt. Disgusting.
On October 09 2011 11:18 Devilgoat wrote: I get the impression from most Koreans that they don't like them, and don't want them here. I've heard plenty of stories from Koreans I've met here about how American soldiers have raped girls and gotten away with it.
Really hoping nobody mistakes me for one. ^.^
Does it affect how they view civilian Americans? I want to visit Korea to both have fun and better my language skills. Do they tend to generalize or is it a case by case basis?
Hahahah what is this I dont even...
You're asking a random Korean to generalize the Korean population, and whether this homogenous group generalize Americans? Really?
On October 09 2011 12:28 Euronyme wrote: What I don't understand is why the soldiers have to physically be there. It's not like modern technology doesn't allow you to travel there in a heartbeat anyway if a full out war would break out.
I'm not being critical of it or anything, I'd just like someone with some insight to answere it for me, because the NK threat seems irrelevant. Or are they all sailors and pilots for ships and aircraft carriers docked there?
How are you supposed to run an empire without the long outreaching arms of "democracy"?
I am very sorry for the young girl who was abused by US servicemen. May they get prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law in a civilian court.
On October 09 2011 12:28 Euronyme wrote: What I don't understand is why the soldiers have to physically be there. It's not like modern technology doesn't allow you to travel there in a heartbeat anyway if a full out war would break out.
I'm not being critical of it or anything, I'd just like someone with some insight to answere it for me, because the NK threat seems irrelevant. Or are they all sailors and pilots for ships and aircraft carriers docked there?
Edit: The armed forces in a foreign country will always be representatives for the nation. I don't quite understand what benefit they are for either country considering they sooner or later are bound to do something stupid, and that'll just negatively affect relations.
This is what i want to see. Some practical reflection on the whole thing. I don't like the knee-jerk reaction of 'oh if you are critical about US foreign basis you must be anti-american, not having a sound argument or missusing current events for political benefit. Just having critical (that doesn't mean think badly of it, it means to examine it in a lot of ways) thoughts/discussions is worth a lot imho.
EDIT: i wrote this before the polemic image. I'm not condoning that!
On October 09 2011 12:28 Euronyme wrote: What I don't understand is why the soldiers have to physically be there. It's not like modern technology doesn't allow you to travel there in a heartbeat anyway if a full out war would break out.
I'm not being critical of it or anything, I'd just like someone with some insight to answere it for me, because the NK threat seems irrelevant. Or are they all sailors and pilots for ships and aircraft carriers docked there?
Edit: The armed forces in a foreign country will always be representatives for the nation. I don't quite understand what benefit they are for either country considering they sooner or later are bound to do something stupid, and that'll just negatively affect relations.
Having a military base there says that if you fuck with SK, you're fucking with USA too.
American soldiers would die if SK was attacked, and that's the point of having our soldiers there.
Okay I read the first four or so pages, and I think most of you guys don't know why.
It's not *just* the fact that two GIs did something terrible. It's the fact that they're not going to get punished for it. Most of the anti american sentiment comes from the fact that GIs go around breaking rules like it's nothing and they get away with it because the Korean law enforcement can't do anything about it.
In fact, from what I know, the two GIs who ran over two school girls with a vehicle weren't even punished they were just restationed (oh apparently, they ran them over twice, from what I remember from the incident).
That is why there's anti american sentiments. The fact that these GIs will likely get away with it because Korean law enforcement wont be able to get them but America will likely cover it up.
On October 09 2011 10:38 domovoi wrote: People's reactions to this story are quite odd. Do American GI's rape at a higher rate than Koreans? Other Americans? Other foreigners? I am quite certain that every day someone gets raped in Korea by a Korean, and yet these alleged rapes have stirred up a lot of emotions.
If these soldiers did it, then I hope they receive their due punishment. But it sadly says a lot about humans that we instinctly turn it into a tribalistic thing.
Military stationed overseas reps the country itself. Sure, if they recruit the way they do now there will be rapists and scumbags and everybody else, there is no way around it. But generally it should be an elite group of people that are trustworthy enough to not rape population given the chance. Obviously something seems very strange to you when you are comparing professional soldiers to some of the mentally challenged locals.
On October 09 2011 12:41 Milkis wrote: Okay I read the first four or so pages, and I think most of you guys don't know why.
It's not *just* the fact that two GIs did something terrible. It's the fact that they're not going to get punished for it. Most of the anti american sentiment comes from the fact that GIs go around breaking rules like it's nothing and they get away with it because the Korean law enforcement can't do anything about it.
In fact, from what I know, the two GIs who ran over two school girls with a vehicle weren't even punished they were just restationed (oh apparently, they ran them over twice, from what I remember from the incident).
That is why there's anti american sentiments. The fact that these GIs will likely get away with it because Korean law enforcement wont be able to get them but America will likely cover it up.
That's exactly right. Here's a recent example of a circumstance where outrageous grievances were committed by an army member in Afghanistan where he killed a young 15 year old boy for "sport", admitted to murdering that young boy for sport, then took pictures that got released worldwide of him posing next to the boys body.
On October 09 2011 12:41 Milkis wrote: Okay I read the first four or so pages, and I think most of you guys don't know why.
It's not *just* the fact that two GIs did something terrible. It's the fact that they're not going to get punished for it. Most of the anti american sentiment comes from the fact that GIs go around breaking rules like it's nothing and they get away with it because the Korean law enforcement can't do anything about it.
In fact, from what I know, the two GIs who ran over two school girls with a vehicle weren't even punished they were just restationed (oh apparently, they ran them over twice, from what I remember from the incident).
That is why there's anti american sentiments. The fact that these GIs will likely get away with it because Korean law enforcement wont be able to get them but America will likely cover it up.
Has there been any history of GIs getting punished by the law for their transgressions? Be it US military law or by the local jurisdiction. It's kind of strange how these soldiers were never accountable for any of their actions.
I am very sorry for the young girl who was abused by US servicemen. May they get prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law in a civilian court.
lol they would be so lucky for it just be civllian court. They will first get nailed under UCMJ (which is harsher, wtf is a jury?) then more fun in the civilian court. Double whammy.
On October 09 2011 12:28 Euronyme wrote: What I don't understand is why the soldiers have to physically be there. It's not like modern technology doesn't allow you to travel there in a heartbeat anyway if a full out war would break out.
I'm not being critical of it or anything, I'd just like someone with some insight to answere it for me, because the NK threat seems irrelevant. Or are they all sailors and pilots for ships and aircraft carriers docked there?
Edit: The armed forces in a foreign country will always be representatives for the nation. I don't quite understand what benefit they are for either country considering they sooner or later are bound to do something stupid, and that'll just negatively affect relations.
Having a military base there says that if you fuck with SK, you're fucking with USA too.
American soldiers would die if SK was attacked, and that's the point of having our soldiers there.
Isn't the US military going to help South Korea if the North attacks anyway? If so what's the difference between attacking after some of your own soldiers died, and attacking to defend your ally even if you didn't have casualties after the first attack of the North?
As an american, I say hand them over to the South Koreans and let their justice system deal with it. We shouldn't be sheltering these guys, it sets a horrible example. Also gives off a vibe of disrepect and arrogance: if they rape american teenage girls they go to jail for a long time.
On October 09 2011 13:14 zEnVy wrote: As an american, I say hand them over to the South Koreans and let their justice system deal with it. We shouldn't be sheltering these guys, it sets a horrible example and appears as if Americans condone the rape of teenage girls as long as it's somebody elses' daughter.
Not going to happen. Any crimes committed by American soldiers are handled by the military. It always has been like this and probably always will.
On October 09 2011 13:14 zEnVy wrote: As an american, I say hand them over to the South Koreans and let their justice system deal with it. We shouldn't be sheltering these guys, it sets a horrible example and appears as if Americans condone the rape of teenage girls as long as it's somebody elses' daughter.
Not going to happen. Any crimes committed by American soldiers are handled by the military. It always has been like this and probably always will.
Never said it was going to happen, just saying it SHOULD happen.
On October 09 2011 12:41 Milkis wrote: Okay I read the first four or so pages, and I think most of you guys don't know why.
It's not *just* the fact that two GIs did something terrible. It's the fact that they're not going to get punished for it. Most of the anti american sentiment comes from the fact that GIs go around breaking rules like it's nothing and they get away with it because the Korean law enforcement can't do anything about it.
In fact, from what I know, the two GIs who ran over two school girls with a vehicle weren't even punished they were just restationed (oh apparently, they ran them over twice, from what I remember from the incident).
That is why there's anti american sentiments. The fact that these GIs will likely get away with it because Korean law enforcement wont be able to get them but America will likely cover it up.
Has there been any history of GIs getting punished by the law for their transgressions? Be it US military law or by the local jurisdiction. It's kind of strange how these soldiers were never accountable for any of their actions.
That's hard to tell, since I'm sure there are cases that are "silent" that never gets to the public. However, for any incident that became public and caused an outrage, they definitely got a much weaker punishment that they would have from the Korean courts, or even US civilian courts.
On October 09 2011 13:41 ShadeR wrote: The US will leave if S.Korea wants them to.
S Korea already asked US to leave 10 years ago. US firmly said no. Today's korean government administration hasn't asked US to leave because of increased north korean threats and china's pushy diplomacy.
With 30,000 soldiers there, some rapes will occur.
So you're okay with US soldiers committing crimes in other countries because "boys will be boys?"
You're saying "US soldiers", which almost implies that these men's actions were condoned by the US military.
If you took 30,000 korean men at random, they probably commit just as many, if not more, rapes than the US soldiers do. To use these rapes to fuel anti-American sentiments is pretty ridiculous.
There's a good reason why a lot of the world doesn't like the US a whole lot. Their military personnel have a history of doing whatever they feel like to civilians. It may be said that it's not an accurate portrayal of the US, it's just the people in question. But the fact is that they are in the US military, wearing the flag on their uniforms, stationed overseas representing the US so whatever they do is going to reflect upon their country.
On October 09 2011 06:06 APurpleCow wrote: To be honest, I don't really see what the big deal is...
With 30,000 soldiers there, some rapes will occur.
So what you're saying is because the US has x% of rape in it's own borders, it's up to their citizens worldwide to keep up this % wherever they happen to be? Somehow I think you're trying to justify these rapes.
On October 09 2011 13:41 ShadeR wrote: The US will leave if S.Korea wants them to.
S Korea already asked US to leave 10 years ago. US firmly said no. Today's korean government administration hasn't asked US to leave because of increased north korean threats and china's pushy diplomacy.
Politics shouldn't be getting in the way of what has allegedly happened. It doesn't matter if it was in the middle of a war, soldiers raping civilians, teenagers at that, is not excusable.
On October 09 2011 13:41 ShadeR wrote: The US will leave if S.Korea wants them to.
S Korea already asked US to leave 10 years ago. US firmly said no. Today's korean government administration hasn't asked US to leave because of increased north korean threats and china's pushy diplomacy.
I believe it's purely and cost benefit analysis issue. 'asking' the US to leave will not tarnish the relationship but might not work. Delivering an ultimatum like Uzbekistan in 2005 to the US to close down their airbase and get out will tarnish the relationship and will work.
lol at all the hate at the american military. Most of you should be grateful to us if anything. The US looks out for people who are to incompetent to look out for themselves. Our military bases grant protection to your country.
I've read through most of this thread, and I really believe the reason how this particular instance is different than say a regular citizen raping another is that the soldiers, although off duty or what not, are not just representing themselves, but are representing the US military.
In much the same way, a person wearing a school uniform acts as a representative of their school, regardless of the fact that he is just a normal kid beneath his clothes.
What people make of this fact is an entirely different story though.
With 30,000 soldiers there, some rapes will occur.
So what you're saying is because the US has x% of rape in it's own borders, it's up to their citizens worldwide to keep up this % wherever they happen to be? Somehow I think you're trying to justify these rapes.
Rape is NEVER ok.
You're just strawmanning. He was making an observation about the law of large numbers. If you take a big enough sample of people you will find some of them committing crimes, including violent crimes. (As an aside, for those sensational violent crimes, tens of thousands of acts of goodness and indifference are also committed.) But this is the same for lots of demographics. So you can't necessarily generalize that the presence of US troops in Korea is an exportation of rape given that individual tragedies occurred.
Sorry I didn’t read all the pages of comments so this might have already been said but I can verify that US soldiers over here have had their 11:00 curfew put back in place. The girl that got raped in Yongsan was reportedly not a Korean citizen I think someone said she was US and under aged. There was a separate incident in Uijeongbu where a US solider robbed a Korean taxi driver. So 2 incidences of stupidity by 2 very stupid individuals and every solider has their curfew back. I have no more information and not much of an opinion on the subject to be honest.
Also this was 2nd hand information from my friends and not something I've seen on TV or anything so its not even that reliable information except for the curfew tahts definately back.
First think... what ??!? 28k soldier in korea, i knew the mafia that profits of US military contract is strong but they are able to keep 28k soldiers in korea ( not to mnetion 50k in Japan ) in full financial crisis all around the world, i just fell like Russia isn't that corrupt anymore. Second... Is this rape real rape ? There are hundreds upon hundreds of cases where a woman willingly had sex with a man and later called it a rape ( see Julian Assange ). And finally even if it was an actual rape 2 soldiers out of 28k did it, im pretty sure thats a 1:14000 ratio of soldiers doing that which honestly is not that big, considering that non-american soldiers and civilians ( i would assume ) commit this crime as well.Sure the guys should be arrested and sent to jail but thats no reason to hate all the US soldier ( not that i agree with them being there ).
On October 09 2011 14:46 Greg_J wrote: Sorry I didn’t read all the pages of comments so this might have already been said but I can verify that US soldiers over here have had their 11:00 curfew put back in place. The girl that got raped in Yongsan was reportedly not a Korean citizen I think someone said she was US and under aged. There was a separate incident in Uijeongbu where a US solider robbed a Korean taxi driver. So 2 incidences of stupidity by 2 very stupid individuals and every solider has their curfew back. I have no more information and not much of an opinion on the subject to be honest.
Also this was 2nd hand information from my friends and not something I've seen on TV or anything so its not even that reliable information except for the curfew tahts definately back.
Thanks for your update this should be put in the OP
With 30,000 soldiers there, some rapes will occur.
So what you're saying is because the US has x% of rape in it's own borders, it's up to their citizens worldwide to keep up this % wherever they happen to be? Somehow I think you're trying to justify these rapes.
Rape is NEVER ok.
You're just strawmanning. He was making an observation about the law of large numbers. If you take a big enough sample of people you will find some of them committing crimes, including violent crimes. (As an aside, for those sensational violent crimes, tens of thousands of acts of goodness and indifference are also committed.) But this is the same for lots of demographics. So you can't necessarily generalize that the presence of US troops in Korea is an exportation of rape given that individual tragedies occurred.
I had to google what strawmanning was haha. I'm not trying to though, it's just the way he wrote it sounded like the rapes were justified.
On October 09 2011 05:37 MattBarry wrote: It's so stupid for people to get angry about this. 2 Americans does not represent the entire country.
And an employee of a company doesn't represent that company, right?
Sorry, but that employee would most likely get fired, just like those two American soldiers will most likely be charged in military court if found guilty and be dishonorably discharged. It's the in the best interest of the U.S. to see this through, as South Korea is a relatively valuable ally.
On October 09 2011 05:37 MattBarry wrote: It's so stupid for people to get angry about this. 2 Americans does not represent the entire country.
And an employee of a company doesn't represent that company, right?
Sorry, but that employee would most likely get fired, just like those two American soldiers will most likely be charged in military court if found guilty and be dishonorably discharged. It's the in the best interest of the U.S. to see this through, as South Korea is a relatively valuable ally.
Thats the point though. I feel like the anger is focused on the fact that these people get away with crimes because civilian cops cant charge them, if this is true then it's like how child molesters are protected by the church. No rational person would claim that US soldiers and priests are more prone to rape but rather frustration comes from how the governing institutions actively subvert justice.
This thread should be closed. It is only accomplishing stirring up baseless anti-American sentiment. There may be reasons to dislike America, but this particular incident isn't one of them. It generates no discussion other than hating America.
Okay I read the first four or so pages, and I think most of you guys don't know why.
It's not *just* the fact that two GIs did something terrible. It's the fact that they're not going to get punished for it. Most of the anti american sentiment comes from the fact that GIs go around breaking rules like it's nothing and they get away with it because the Korean law enforcement can't do anything about it.
In fact, from what I know, the two GIs who ran over two school girls with a vehicle weren't even punished they were just restationed (oh apparently, they ran them over twice, from what I remember from the incident).
That is why there's anti american sentiments. The fact that these GIs will likely get away with it because Korean law enforcement wont be able to get them but America will likely cover it up.
You said Korean law enforcement can't do anything about GIs
The Korean judicial system does have primary jurisdiction in the vast majority of criminal cases involving USFK personnel. In 2001, for example, 82% of all offenses committed by USFK personnel in Korea were subject to Korean jurisdiction.
Compare that with Korean military, whose soldiers are 100% exempt from civil courts, in Korea and in any other country they are stationed.
Additionally, in that website it actually lays out the facts of the case you specifically mentioned: the two soldiers were charged with criminal negligence, which is the most they could prove in two trials. Public apologies came from every level of the chain of command, including the president. Perhaps this still isn't justice to you, but it is the arrangement the South Korean government has agreed on.
In the end, none of this excuses any rape. However, you should still refrain from posting hearsay. This is only my second post because I would rather just lurk than flame people over nothing. People respect you and I'd hate for them to just accept your post as truth.
The incidents are very unfortunate, but sadly there is very little detail released so we have no idea what happened. Are they forcible violent rapes or statutory rapes? We don't know if the girls were low teens or more like 17 and I also don't happen to know what the age of consent is in that country. Obviously a crime is a crime but it could be the difference between a guy in his low 20's getting into trouble for fooling around with a 17 year old, or it could be a much worse violent, forcible rape.
As someone pointed out, regardless of whether the accused are guilty or not it will bring a lot of heat down on the military stationed there.
On October 09 2011 05:30 Bleak wrote: Wow, there are still 50.000 soldiers in Japan. I guess once US enters somewhere they don't ever go back.
If it was any other country they would have simply claimed all of the Japanese territory for themselves and they would have been well within their rights to do so, so please stop trying to make the United States sound bad. As for the present, it is my understanding that most Japanese support the United States military presence and Japan pays for the support of that military presence. Maybe it is cheaper than if they had to expand their own military for their own defense?
Having said that, as a United States citizen I want to bring all of our troops and military home from Europe, the middle east and Asia. I only support politicians who share in that goal. I would love it if we defended ourselves only, left nato and our other so-called "strategic" alliances which cost us a fortune, and let other sovereign nations take care of themselves without interference from us.
On October 09 2011 05:29 Emporio wrote: Do soldiers rape more often than the average person or is it just that Hess cases are way more publicized? Because I feel like every place soldiers are stationed for extended periods of time, you hear about someone raping a local. And I know that this doesn't apply to every soldier, or even rhe majority of them and there is probably a strong attraction of military careers to people who maybe have social problems.
I think these cases just get reported more, and the people who want the military presence removed use the opportunity to build up extra negative sentiment.
This is from wikipedia regarding the American forces stationed in Okinawa and Japan: On February 12th, 2008 the National Police Agency (of Japan) or NPA, released its annual criminal statistics that included activity within the Okinawan prefecture. These findings held American soldiers responsible for 53 crimes per 10,000 U.S. male servicemen, while Okinawan males held a crime rate of 366 crimes per 10,000. The per capita crime rate of U.S. servicemen in Okinawa was found to be 14 percent of that of the Okinawan males.
Percentage of crime out of 1000 people
National crime rate 0.30%
North and South Koreans 1.94% The Chinese 1.57% Okinawa people (excluding American soldiers) 0.30% Brazilians 0.52% American soldiers in Okinawa 0.14% [21]
Now that is for crimes in general and not rape specifically but it does indicate that American troops are less likely to commit crimes in general compared to the general population in that country. I think it is just natural for people in any country to become especially angry when foreigners commit crimes (especially heinous ones). After all... you are supposed to act your best when a guest in someone's home.
It's a shame, just goes to show that one man's actions can very well lead to the consequence of an entire group of people.
It's sad to think that something like this could disrupt eSports...
You'd think these soldiers would have more etiquette, I really don't think they would appreciate a few Korean soldiers coming over to the United States and raping a teenager.
I usually try to stay out of stuff like this, mainly because I try not to pay attention to the news at all, too much focus on negativity, but this stuff just disgusts me...
On October 09 2011 05:37 MattBarry wrote: It's so stupid for people to get angry about this. 2 Americans does not represent the entire country.
And an employee of a company doesn't represent that company, right?
Sorry, but that employee would most likely get fired, just like those two American soldiers will most likely be charged in military court if found guilty and be dishonorably discharged. It's the in the best interest of the U.S. to see this through, as South Korea is a relatively valuable ally.
I never said anything that contradicts what you just said. "Sorry."
What is it with the Military. My Japanese friend tells me stories of American soldiers doing the same thing there. I really hope this doesn't influence how Koreans see Americans in general. Someone needs to do something about this. This conduct is not becoming of the fine men and women of Americas armed forces. My condolences go out to the girls and the families of the girls that had the misfortune of this happening to them.
On October 09 2011 12:41 Milkis wrote: Okay I read the first four or so pages, and I think most of you guys don't know why.
It's not *just* the fact that two GIs did something terrible. It's the fact that they're not going to get punished for it. Most of the anti american sentiment comes from the fact that GIs go around breaking rules like it's nothing and they get away with it because the Korean law enforcement can't do anything about it.
In fact, from what I know, the two GIs who ran over two school girls with a vehicle weren't even punished they were just restationed (oh apparently, they ran them over twice, from what I remember from the incident).
That is why there's anti american sentiments. The fact that these GIs will likely get away with it because Korean law enforcement wont be able to get them but America will likely cover it up.
The american military justice system is not known for being lenient, I don't get how koreans think the GIs will get away with their crimes.
There are lots of U.S. forces stationed in Germany and the press frequently reports about the findings of U.S. military courts when german citizens were affected. I dare to say the punishment more often than not exceeds the german equivalent.
Not surprised. I'm doubtful that they'll be punished, especially since politicians and members of the military have said before that rape by soldiers is okay. Admittedly they meant in a war situation, but its still fed up.
On October 09 2011 16:20 NekoFlandre wrote: Sad....so sad.
It would be...lovely if our troops just came home and stayed here..... To bad we must stick our nose in everyones buisness.
Well maybe you should ask the South Koreans if they would prefer to live as the northern Koreans do. I doubt they would.
So if US troops leave, SK people will live as NKs? your point?
No my implication was that North Korea would likely invade South Korea if the US did not have a substantial Military force there. And while South Korea has a powerful Military I'm not sure if they could fight off North Korea, especially if the Chinese backed them as they did in Korean war.
On October 09 2011 16:20 NekoFlandre wrote: Sad....so sad.
It would be...lovely if our troops just came home and stayed here..... To bad we must stick our nose in everyones buisness.
Well maybe you should ask the South Koreans if they would prefer to live as the northern Koreans do. I doubt they would.
Are you insinuating that the North Koreans stand a chance of invading South Korea should the Americans not be present? The standard of NK's military hardware isn't a secret - it sucks balls. Besides, China has a vested interest in not seeing NK doing something retarded.
China abetting NK in an invasion is the last thing they want now. There's a reason why China is so willing to dole out so much monetary/food aid to NK just to keep them alive.
There isn't much that NK can do besides seeking attention, which they always do periodically.
On October 09 2011 05:29 Grettin wrote: Funny how you were so "humane" in the suicide thread day or two ago, and now this. Sigh people make me sad sometimes.
Humane really seems like a misnomer most of the time, doesn't it? It doesn't reflect our reality, only our aspirations. Even then, it is only a subjective set of aspirations that we consider 'humane' isn't it?
Which is not to say that I condone anything these military personnel did in this case, or rape in general, quite the opposite in fact. I believe that the theft, or destruction of a person's dignity and body is one of the few seemingly nearly universally agreed upon unacceptable actions that occurs more often than we'd like to admit.
It is also unfortunate that the actions of an insanely small minority (2(+?) people has the potential to get nearly 30,000 people stuck on bases, unable to enjoy such an awesome country. I do wonder who writes some of these articles though, it mentions a curfew being in place for 30 days, but fails to make any other mention or explanation of it throughout the article.
(I'm also glad I wasn't the first math nerd to look at the statistics and question if I wanted to include the silver lining of 'at least our guys are substantially under the rape statistics of both countries.')
On October 09 2011 05:41 Vocal wrote: Discuss this on a moral or philosophical basis, but there's really no point including politics in this. South Korea needs America. I don't mean offense here, but I'd rather have one or two rape cases a month than lose America's presence in the region. I know that might have sounded hella wrong, but let's admit it, North Korea would eat all the kimchi in Seoul within a week without America.
I had to include this because it made me smirk a little bit, and I just had to ask - I'm not sure how much discussion there can really be about this on a moral/philosophical basis. The 'pro-rape' party is usually very quiet, isn't it? Or rather - you seem to have thus far been the only 'pro-rape' post that hasn't resulted in a ban.
It is somewhat unfortunate to see TLers fighting one another on such a personal level about this. These two men do not represent our military as a whole. None of our US TLers represent our military as a whole (I think most have nothing to do with the military in fact.) I don't think any of us feel super strongly about having 'our people' stationed all over the globe. Treating us all as the same, or throwing us into the same boat is fairly ignorant. (Which is why I'm glad it seems to be a very small minority of people treating this situation as such.)
On October 09 2011 16:20 NekoFlandre wrote: Sad....so sad.
It would be...lovely if our troops just came home and stayed here..... To bad we must stick our nose in everyones buisness.
Well maybe you should ask the South Koreans if they would prefer to live as the northern Koreans do. I doubt they would.
Are you insinuating that the North Koreans stand a chance of invading South Korea should the Americans not be present? The standard of NK's military hardware isn't a secret - it sucks balls. Besides, China has a vested interest in not seeing NK doing something retarded.
China abetting NK in an invasion is the last thing they want now. There's a reason why China is so willing to dole out so much monetary/food aid to NK just to keep them alive.
There isn't much that NK can do besides seeking attention, which they always do periodically.
On October 09 2011 05:52 Grobyc wrote: You think it's stupid to get angry about rape? Who cares if they interpret 2 Americans as the entire country, I'm pretty sure having your people raped is something to get angry about regardless of the offenders nationality.
I think it's stupid to get angry over it. What good comes from getting angry over it? In general getting angry just makes things worse. The two guys will be tried, and if they're found guilty will get punished. Nothing to be upset over.
In practice I understand that human emotional responses are not that easy to overcome, but it doesn't excuse how stupid it is to get angry over this.
Rationality remains underrated in our day and age. On the other hand, feeling emotions is part of being human. There's nothing wrong with being emotional or angry about something. I'd even say it's the normal response. Not feeling anything when reading someone just got raped is you being desensitized.
I don't like anything about this thread, the insensitive remarks, the rampant nationalism, the aggressive nature of the discussion, the overly sensationalist tone of the OP. None of this is what team-liquid is about. I think we can all agree that rape is a terrible tragedy, we are not qualified nor do we gain anything from disusing the fine nuances of the legal ramifications. If you want to discuss the united states role in the far east there was already a pretty informative thread for that. Why make a thread focusing on one small atrocity in a world filled with so much more important, not to mention positive and wonderful things.
On October 09 2011 16:20 NekoFlandre wrote: Sad....so sad.
It would be...lovely if our troops just came home and stayed here..... To bad we must stick our nose in everyones buisness.
Well maybe you should ask the South Koreans if they would prefer to live as the northern Koreans do. I doubt they would.
So if US troops leave, SK people will live as NKs? your point?
No my implication was that North Korea would likely invade South Korea if the US did not have a substantial Military force there. And while South Korea has a powerful Military I'm not sure if they could fight off North Korea, especially if the Chinese backed them as they did in Korean war.
no china wont help north korea. Why would they? they are good trading partners/have good relations with SK.
On October 09 2011 16:20 NekoFlandre wrote: Sad....so sad.
It would be...lovely if our troops just came home and stayed here..... To bad we must stick our nose in everyones buisness.
Well maybe you should ask the South Koreans if they would prefer to live as the northern Koreans do. I doubt they would.
So if US troops leave, SK people will live as NKs? your point?
No my implication was that North Korea would likely invade South Korea if the US did not have a substantial Military force there. And while South Korea has a powerful Military I'm not sure if they could fight off North Korea, especially if the Chinese backed them as they did in Korean war.
Yeah. 28,500 american soldiers is the substantial force that prevents invasion. What would half-million South Korean army do without them?
On October 09 2011 16:20 NekoFlandre wrote: Sad....so sad.
It would be...lovely if our troops just came home and stayed here..... To bad we must stick our nose in everyones buisness.
Well maybe you should ask the South Koreans if they would prefer to live as the northern Koreans do. I doubt they would.
So if US troops leave, SK people will live as NKs? your point?
No my implication was that North Korea would likely invade South Korea if the US did not have a substantial Military force there. And while South Korea has a powerful Military I'm not sure if they could fight off North Korea, especially if the Chinese backed them as they did in Korean war.
Yeah. 28,500 american soldiers is the substantial force that prevents invasion. What would half-million South Korean army do without them?
Those 28,500 would quickly become a half million if NK messed with SK, that seems like common sense that it's not the specific number that's a deterrent.
Beyond that, I agree with the common opinion over the last few pages, NK wouldn't actually invade if the U.S. left, they might make some more noise, and roar a little bit louder, but they almost certainly wouldn't invade.
On October 09 2011 16:37 Merl wrote: Not surprised. I'm doubtful that they'll be punished, especially since politicians and members of the military have said before that rape by soldiers is okay. Admittedly they meant in a war situation, but its still fed up.
On October 09 2011 16:20 NekoFlandre wrote: Sad....so sad.
It would be...lovely if our troops just came home and stayed here..... To bad we must stick our nose in everyones buisness.
Well maybe you should ask the South Koreans if they would prefer to live as the northern Koreans do. I doubt they would.
So if US troops leave, SK people will live as NKs? your point?
No my implication was that North Korea would likely invade South Korea if the US did not have a substantial Military force there. And while South Korea has a powerful Military I'm not sure if they could fight off North Korea, especially if the Chinese backed them as they did in Korean war.
Yeah. 28,500 american soldiers is the substantial force that prevents invasion. What would half-million South Korean army do without them?
Well if North Korea invaded and they actually were winning that 28,000 would turn into hundreds of thousands if necessary. Also you can't say that having American Naval and Air support on your side wouldn't help.
On October 09 2011 17:09 LaLLsc2 wrote: Why are you guys theory crafting SK vs NK? Completely off topic from this thread..
IDK we went off on a tangent sorry guys. On topic now. I doubt rape would decrease if there were brothels in SK. Rape is most commonly about power not sex. If it was about sex they just get on the internet and find some easy. I mean if there were brothels there would be more than these two bastards there. I think the number of people committing rapes shows that this is about them being sick bastards not that they just wanted sex.
Too many issues with problem soldiers/GIs in Korea and other regions. There really needs to be a mandatory curfew, and perhaps even a ban on certain areas. I know a lot of places in the "party" areas actually ban GIs from entering their establishments because of issues that arise.
Come on guys, American soldiers raping teenage girls in foreign countries.
Are you guys seriously surprised at this?
They have done it in Japan, in Iraq, in Korea, if they get their hands on Iran, they will continue the tradition there.
Rape IS about power, and there's not doubt Americans, especially American soldiers will feel more powerful than they actually are when carrying guns in other countries' territory.
On October 09 2011 16:20 NekoFlandre wrote: Sad....so sad.
It would be...lovely if our troops just came home and stayed here..... To bad we must stick our nose in everyones buisness.
Well maybe you should ask the South Koreans if they would prefer to live as the northern Koreans do. I doubt they would.
So if US troops leave, SK people will live as NKs? your point?
No my implication was that North Korea would likely invade South Korea if the US did not have a substantial Military force there. And while South Korea has a powerful Military I'm not sure if they could fight off North Korea, especially if the Chinese backed them as they did in Korean war.
Yeah. 28,500 american soldiers is the substantial force that prevents invasion. What would half-million South Korean army do without them?
Those 28,500 would quickly become a half million if NK messed with SK, that seems like common sense that it's not the specific number that's a deterrent.
Or if SK decides to mess with US. Or if US decides to mess with NK. You see, common sense says (and you just confirmed it) that there's no NK threat to SK. Surely than, US holds it's bases for completely different purposes. And that makes NekoFlandre's remark, that started this quote chain, spot on.
On October 09 2011 17:21 bokchoi wrote: Too many issues with problem soldiers/GIs in Korea and other regions. There really needs to be a mandatory curfew, and perhaps even a ban on certain areas. I know a lot of places in the "party" areas actually ban GIs from entering their establishments because of issues that arise.
Why hasn't South Korea done something about this already. It's your country is there some sort of law or agreement with the American government that prevents them from doing that. The banning and curfews. I hope that if there is nothing preventing that from happening that South Korea should do just that and curfew and ban them from certain areas.
On October 09 2011 12:28 Euronyme wrote: What I don't understand is why the soldiers have to physically be there. It's not like modern technology doesn't allow you to travel there in a heartbeat anyway if a full out war would break out.
Simple deterrence. It's pretty obvious that N. Korea is a very volatile nation, and you can't really expect them to behave, I guess given recent events. Three acts that N. Korea has committed without being sanctioned or punished very heavily are their underground nuclear testing, an alleged attack on a S. Korean marine vessel, and the recent firing upon Yeonpyeong island nearly a year ago.
This being said, and relating this post now to the OP, from a strictly military perspective, there really isn't much room for a counterargument involving the comparison of a 'substantive' issue such as rape against potential invasion or attack.
On October 09 2011 17:24 Mioraka wrote: Come on guys, American soldiers raping teenage girls in foreign countries.
Are you guys seriously surprised at this?
They have done it in Japan, in Iraq, in Korea, if they get their hands on Iran, they will continue the tradition there.
Rape IS about power, and there's not doubt Americans, especially American soldiers will feel more powerful than they actually are when carrying guns in other countries' territory.
It's disappointing to see people point out that this happened because they are American. There are fucked up human beings in every culture, they didn't do it because they are Americans, they did it because they are messed up fucks. Oh i forgot though, Canadians are all Saints and Nuns and havent done anything wrong in the history of the world.
What the hell? I had no idea America has so many soldiers in korea and japan etc. How can they justify stationing armed forces in those countries? WW II doesn't really count anymore.
This is truly a disgusting act, however it may only be newsworthy in Korea because it involves American military. See below a case of gang rape in Korea, where the punishment is lessened for some ridiculous reason. I do hope the US soldiers are punished, rape is one of the worst crimes you can commit.
Four men in their twenties who were sentenced to six years in prison after being convicted of sexually assaulting a 12-year old middle school student have been sentenced to probation by an appeals court. Prosecutors criticized the ruling, saying that “this court’s decision is incredibly tolerant of gang rape.”
On Wednesday the ninth criminal division of the Seoul High Court (Judge Choi Sang-yeol presiding) sentenced 20-year-old Mr. B and three other young men, all convicted of sexually assaulting 12-year-old middle school student A over a period of hours, to three years in prison and four years of probation. This is a lesser punishment than that imposed by the trial court, which sentenced them to six years in prison and ten years of offender registry.
The judge wrote in the opinion that “viewing the situation as a whole there is no evidence that the victim lacked the ability to resist… The trial court misunderstood the facts.” The opinion continued that “as Mr. B and the others acknowledged their crime, regret their error, have reached an agreement with the victim, and do not want to be punished, and as the defendants are young and this was their first crime, having no prior offenses rising to the level of a fine or higher, so we find this to be an appropriate sentence.”
In August of 2010 Mr. B and his friends received a call from one of their girlfriends (a student) saying that she was exhausted from drinking alcohol, then followed her to a motel and met A, who was with her.
They then went to another hotel, where they repeatedly sexually assaulted the intoxicated A over a period of three hours.
They were not subject to the law on sexual violence criminalizing rape of those 13 years of age or younger. The judge wrote that “Mr. B, unable to tell that A was only 12, committed his acts because he did not think she was 12.”
Prosecutors responded that “gang rape must subject to harsher legal penalty than ordinary sexual assault, so it is difficult to understand the appeals court’s sentence of probation.”
The trial court judge who issued the original, severe sentence said that “because they confessed that the victim was so intoxicated that she could not resist and knew that she was too intoxicated to do anything, I recognized that it was a forcible sexual assault.”
However, the appeals court judge said of the reason for overturning the trial court that “from their lustful attitude, it had been six hours since A had become intoxicated and arrived at the motel on the back seat of the motorcycle of her male assailant, so we sentence them to probation.” The court found that A had not been so intoxicated as to be unable to resist, and that she meekly accompanied Mr. B and the others to the hotel.
On October 09 2011 18:48 AutomatonOmega wrote: Great job making Americans look even more like idiots than they were already, soldiers. I didn't even think it was possible.
On October 09 2011 07:01 K_Dilkington wrote: I think it's very interesting that ALL of you automatically assume they're guilty.
Tends to happen when the perpetretor confess..
Where in the OP's article does it say that that they actually confessed? They were questioned, but they didn't confess
The top U.S. diplomat for East Asia, Kurt Campbell, apologized Friday for what he called a "tragic and inexcusable rape that took place about a week ago."
Why the fuck would a diplomat say this if there were even a shred of doubt?
Same reason people who read the news article say things without realizing that the trial hasn't happened. Trials by public opinion happen 100 times as fast as by court.
Tell my why a US diplomat WHO STILL HAS HIS JOB would implicitly admit guilt on behalf of the accused.
A diplomat's purpose is to mediate relations between the two countries. If they have to apologize in order to do so, so be it.
You guys missed a post. The soldier did confess, said he was drunk, and is on camera entering the girls room. This only accounts for one of the two cases, but I'd say that it's entirely certain that one of these cases is not just an allegation.
American soldiers are everywhere, and statistically this should happen at their hands most often. It's the white man's burden, so it was once said, to civilize us.
Horrifying, both the allegation and the logic in this thread.
@toodarkpark: A diplomat is a spy, above all else.
Okay I read the first four or so pages, and I think most of you guys don't know why.
It's not *just* the fact that two GIs did something terrible. It's the fact that they're not going to get punished for it. Most of the anti american sentiment comes from the fact that GIs go around breaking rules like it's nothing and they get away with it because the Korean law enforcement can't do anything about it.
In fact, from what I know, the two GIs who ran over two school girls with a vehicle weren't even punished they were just restationed (oh apparently, they ran them over twice, from what I remember from the incident).
That is why there's anti american sentiments. The fact that these GIs will likely get away with it because Korean law enforcement wont be able to get them but America will likely cover it up.
The Korean judicial system does have primary jurisdiction in the vast majority of criminal cases involving USFK personnel. In 2001, for example, 82% of all offenses committed by USFK personnel in Korea were subject to Korean jurisdiction.
Compare that with Korean military, whose soldiers are 100% exempt from civil courts, in Korea and in any other country they are stationed.
Additionally, in that website it actually lays out the facts of the case you specifically mentioned: the two soldiers were charged with criminal negligence, which is the most they could prove in two trials. Public apologies came from every level of the chain of command, including the president. Perhaps this still isn't justice to you, but it is the arrangement the South Korean government has agreed on.
In the end, none of this excuses any rape. However, you should still refrain from posting hearsay. This is only my second post because I would rather just lurk than flame people over nothing. People respect you and I'd hate for them to just accept your post as truth.
On October 09 2011 05:37 MattBarry wrote: It's so stupid for people to get angry about this. 2 Americans does not represent the entire country.
Unfortunately a lot of people are too blinded by rage or emotion to look past this. This is basically the same as saying that all imigrants in developed countries are criminals or outlaws. It portrays a pathetic and low state of mind, that sadly, a lot of people seem to have.
No citizen wants soldiers from another country and culture roaming their streets, and that's why the cry in this thread is so strong. That's why the U.S. soldiers have such a bad rap in SK, not because they are any more likely to commit crimes or aggravate locals than any other person. I guess the alternative is that U.S. forces leave, and let you deal with the psychopath across the border by yourself. Otherwise, occasionally things like this will happen, as they always happen, to everyone, by everyone.
On October 09 2011 05:58 Fus wrote: So, this is US military. US should just shut down 7/8 of their military and do something useful with the money, like making free healthcare for everyone. Why does America think they have to control the world?
Why does the US stick it's nose everywhere? Because the rest of the world wants us there and we've taken over the role of protector of everyone else. I don't agree with it, but it IS the current situation until it can be altered.
Our military is the same as our population, a lot of really good people with a few truly rotten apples mixed into group. I've been 'accused' of some bad things in 11 years of law enforcement. None of them were true and I was exonerated in the end. Let the courts figure it out, if they are guilty, bury them. If the girls are shown to be lying, charge them with false accusation/libel/slander and punish them accordingly.
On October 09 2011 05:58 Fus wrote: So, this is US military. US should just shut down 7/8 of their military and do something useful with the money, like making free healthcare for everyone. Why does America think they have to control the world?
You know the rest of the world's governments want American bases in their country, right? The US is basically the muscle for most of the first world to the point that it hurts US citizens (not enough money for other things like healthcare) and helps foreign citizens.
Look at countries like Poland and Finland -- they are basically right next to the giant that is Russia yet they spend almost nothing on defense. Why? The US has bases and is willing to flex their strength to protect other countries' sovereignty.
The same applies for Korea and Japan. The popular sentiment is very anti-American in terms of wanting bases there, but the government knows that the US stationing entire battalions is a bigger deterrent to NK and China than anything they could themselves do. It's free protection at the expense of Americans. And the kicker? America doesn't even control the countries they have bases in like you think -- Korea gets a lot more out of the US than the other way around.
On October 09 2011 05:58 Fus wrote: So, this is US military. US should just shut down 7/8 of their military and do something useful with the money, like making free healthcare for everyone. Why does America think they have to control the world?
Why does the US stick it's nose everywhere? Because the rest of the world wants us there and we've taken over the role of protector of everyone else. I don't agree with it, but it IS the current situation until it can be altered. .
On October 09 2011 05:58 Fus wrote: So, this is US military. US should just shut down 7/8 of their military and do something useful with the money, like making free healthcare for everyone. Why does America think they have to control the world?
You know the rest of the world's governments want American bases in their country, right? The US is basically the muscle for most of the first world to the point that it hurts US citizens (not enough money for other things like healthcare) and helps foreign citizens.
Look at countries like Poland and Finland -- they are basically right next to the giant that is Russia yet they spend almost nothing on defense. Why? The US has bases and is willing to flex their strength to protect other countries' sovereignty.
The same applies for Korea and Japan. The popular sentiment is very anti-American in terms of wanting bases there, but the government knows that the US stationing entire battalions is a bigger deterrent to NK and China than anything they could themselves do. It's free protection at the expense of Americans. And the kicker? America doesn't even control the countries they have bases in like you think -- Korea gets a lot more out of the US than the other way around.
I'm not sure it's entirely at the expense of America. They have been useful for projecting military force across the globe and logistics. It's been the age of America "World Police" for some time, for better or for worse.
On October 09 2011 05:58 Fus wrote: So, this is US military. US should just shut down 7/8 of their military and do something useful with the money, like making free healthcare for everyone. Why does America think they have to control the world?
Why does the US stick it's nose everywhere? Because the rest of the world wants us there and we've taken over the role of protector of everyone else. I don't agree with it, but it IS the current situation until it can be altered.
Wow that's one of the most ignorant statements I've read lately. The same could be said about Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union during and after WW2 then. Of course the US is no tyrant, no no, hahaha we all know that.
Should just leave these countries. We aren't the world police. And these problems wouldn't happen. If soldiers raped an American, than it would just be a rape. But if they rape someone in another country, it will completely become the center of attention and all hell will break loose.
On October 09 2011 05:58 Fus wrote: So, this is US military. US should just shut down 7/8 of their military and do something useful with the money, like making free healthcare for everyone. Why does America think they have to control the world?
Why does the US stick it's nose everywhere? Because the rest of the world wants us there and we've taken over the role of protector of everyone else. I don't agree with it, but it IS the current situation until it can be altered.
Wow that's one of the most ignorant statements I've read lately. The same could be said about Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union during and after WW2 then. Of course the US is no tyrant, no no, hahaha we all know that.
On October 09 2011 05:58 Fus wrote: So, this is US military. US should just shut down 7/8 of their military and do something useful with the money, like making free healthcare for everyone. Why does America think they have to control the world?
Why does the US stick it's nose everywhere? Because the rest of the world wants us there and we've taken over the role of protector of everyone else. I don't agree with it, but it IS the current situation until it can be altered.
Wow that's one of the most ignorant statements I've read lately. The same could be said about Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union during and after WW2 then. Of course the US is no tyrant, no no, hahaha we all know that.
In fact, the USA are what saved us (Europe) from Nazi Germany. Disgusting comparison.
Okay I read the first four or so pages, and I think most of you guys don't know why.
It's not *just* the fact that two GIs did something terrible. It's the fact that they're not going to get punished for it. Most of the anti american sentiment comes from the fact that GIs go around breaking rules like it's nothing and they get away with it because the Korean law enforcement can't do anything about it.
In fact, from what I know, the two GIs who ran over two school girls with a vehicle weren't even punished they were just restationed (oh apparently, they ran them over twice, from what I remember from the incident).
That is why there's anti american sentiments. The fact that these GIs will likely get away with it because Korean law enforcement wont be able to get them but America will likely cover it up.
You said Korean law enforcement can't do anything about GIs
The Korean judicial system does have primary jurisdiction in the vast majority of criminal cases involving USFK personnel. In 2001, for example, 82% of all offenses committed by USFK personnel in Korea were subject to Korean jurisdiction.
Compare that with Korean military, whose soldiers are 100% exempt from civil courts, in Korea and in any other country they are stationed.
Additionally, in that website it actually lays out the facts of the case you specifically mentioned: the two soldiers were charged with criminal negligence, which is the most they could prove in two trials. Public apologies came from every level of the chain of command, including the president. Perhaps this still isn't justice to you, but it is the arrangement the South Korean government has agreed on.
In the end, none of this excuses any rape. However, you should still refrain from posting hearsay. This is only my second post because I would rather just lurk than flame people over nothing. People respect you and I'd hate for them to just accept your post as truth.
My impression, and impression of most of the Koreans are quite different regarding this.
I can second what Milkis stated regarding US troops running over two girls then basically getting away with it. Happened some time ago - I think a couple years back. Of course, you could say Korean media may have exaggerated the event. However, that doesn't change the fact that this isn't the first time it's happened and no matter the punishment (to the soldiers), the public relations damage has been done.
Hopefully this will be the last time we hear about these kinds of disturbing news.
You can't deny that many countries "need" USA protection, but you can't label USA as the saint protector of the world because of that.
If USA troops are stationed in a country, USA has some kind of interest on that, they aren't there just to "protect" that nation.
This is applicable to every nation in the world, but obviously USA is the highlight since it is, undeniable, the most powerful (army wise) nation in the world.
A truly unfortunate event. It is distressing to hear about such horrible things happening because of foolish people not considering the consequences of their actions. I really hate it when things like this happen, but it can surely not always be avoided. I just wish that justice will be served, and that the affected parties will be effectively counseled.
If thailand were happen to be next to north korea, I would want us troop to station in my country aswell. However, i wouldn,t let a rapist get away with it too.
It's a shame that people like this make the army look bad (worse?) but I can definitely see how things like this happen, for example if I look around on facebook the people who went into the army straight out of high school often have "interesting" personalities, usually quite ignorant and chaotic. Meanwhile the guys I know at college in the ROTC program are incredibly nice and smart and actually care about what the army stands for, and it sucks they have to go into their job with stuff like this hanging over them.
On October 09 2011 19:57 Paperplane wrote: What the hell? I had no idea America has so many soldiers in korea and japan etc. How can they justify stationing armed forces in those countries? WW II doesn't really count anymore.
Well we station troops in Japan because of the treaty that ended WW2 keeps Japan from having a substantial Military(much like the restrictions on Germany post WW1). So we are in Japan to "defend" them. And in the case of Korea it is justified by the crazy ass North Koreans. While the north is unlikely to invade even if the US didn't station troops there they act as a deterrent. Also these bases offer very important strategic positioning in the Pacific. The US would be hard pressed to give upthose bases, and given that they have Veto power in the UN I doubt any global sanctions would force them out of those countries.
On October 09 2011 19:57 Paperplane wrote: What the hell? I had no idea America has so many soldiers in korea and japan etc. How can they justify stationing armed forces in those countries? WW II doesn't really count anymore.
Well we station troops in Japan because of the treaty that ended WW2 keeps Japan from having a substantial Military(much like the restrictions on Germany post WW1). So we are in Japan to "defend" them. And in the case of Korea it is justified by the crazy ass North Koreans. While the north is unlikely to invade even if the US didn't station troops there they act as a deterrent. Also these bases offer very important strategic positioning in the Pacific. The US would be hard pressed to give upthose bases, and given that they have Veto power in the UN I doubt any global sanctions would force them out of those countries.
And what about Germany?
EDIT: Germany is supposed to have a modern army so it can fight in Afghanistan, yet the US don't deem them competent to take care of their own territory so they need an additional 50000 US troops stationed there?
On October 09 2011 19:57 Paperplane wrote: What the hell? I had no idea America has so many soldiers in korea and japan etc. How can they justify stationing armed forces in those countries? WW II doesn't really count anymore.
Well we station troops in Japan because of the treaty that ended WW2 keeps Japan from having a substantial Military(much like the restrictions on Germany post WW1). So we are in Japan to "defend" them. And in the case of Korea it is justified by the crazy ass North Koreans. While the north is unlikely to invade even if the US didn't station troops there they act as a deterrent. Also these bases offer very important strategic positioning in the Pacific. The US would be hard pressed to give upthose bases, and given that they have Veto power in the UN I doubt any global sanctions would force them out of those countries.
No.
Such a resolution would never even get anywhere near the UN, let a UNSC resolution.
If a host country (like Uzbekistan) says "get out", the US leaves. No UN crap, no lawsuits, no nothing. That is a fact. All the other bullshit in this thread about people saying otherwise are plain wrong.
If the South Korean government told the US in explicit terms that American soldiers are to leave Korean soil, the Americans would pack their bags. Same goes for Japan, and same goes for Germany. Naturally, it wouldn't be very polite, but the end result would be the same. If the Koreans, Germans, or Japanese really want US soldiers gone, they can gladly introduce measures into their various popular assemblies to get that done with enough popular support.
All this talk about American imperialism based on American military bases around the world is foolish. Pretty shitty "empire" when you have to pack your bags and leave any time a corrupt, piss poor country (like Uzbekistan) tells you to go.
On October 09 2011 19:57 Paperplane wrote: What the hell? I had no idea America has so many soldiers in korea and japan etc. How can they justify stationing armed forces in those countries? WW II doesn't really count anymore.
Well we station troops in Japan because of the treaty that ended WW2 keeps Japan from having a substantial Military(much like the restrictions on Germany post WW1). So we are in Japan to "defend" them. And in the case of Korea it is justified by the crazy ass North Koreans. While the north is unlikely to invade even if the US didn't station troops there they act as a deterrent. Also these bases offer very important strategic positioning in the Pacific. The US would be hard pressed to give upthose bases, and given that they have Veto power in the UN I doubt any global sanctions would force them out of those countries.
And what about Germany?
We have a large base there that we send major injuries from the Middle East conflicts too. Also many long range bombing missions are flown out of there. It is also a pit stop on the way to the middle east. Most of these bases come out of WW2 agreements. Although many are outdated and most likely unnecessary I doubt the US government would be willing to give up anything that has an sort of potential strategic impact. The only way would be if Americas economy just totally tanked and we simply couldn't afford them.
On October 09 2011 19:57 Paperplane wrote: What the hell? I had no idea America has so many soldiers in korea and japan etc. How can they justify stationing armed forces in those countries? WW II doesn't really count anymore.
Well we station troops in Japan because of the treaty that ended WW2 keeps Japan from having a substantial Military(much like the restrictions on Germany post WW1). So we are in Japan to "defend" them. And in the case of Korea it is justified by the crazy ass North Koreans. While the north is unlikely to invade even if the US didn't station troops there they act as a deterrent. Also these bases offer very important strategic positioning in the Pacific. The US would be hard pressed to give upthose bases, and given that they have Veto power in the UN I doubt any global sanctions would force them out of those countries.
No.
Such a resolution would never even get anywhere near the UN, let a UNSC resolution.
If a host country (like Uzbekistan) says "get out", the US leaves. No UN crap, no lawsuits, no nothing. That is a fact. All the other bullshit in this thread about people saying otherwise are plain wrong.
If the South Korean government told the US in explicit terms that American soldiers are to leave Korean soil, the Americans would pack their bags. Same goes for Japan, and same goes for Germany. Naturally, it wouldn't be very polite, but the end result would be the same. If the Koreans, Germans, or Japanese really want US soldiers gone, they can gladly introduce measures into their various popular assemblies to get that done with enough popular support.
All this talk about American imperialism based on American military bases around the world is foolish. Pretty shitty "empire" when you have to pack your bags and leave any time a corrupt, piss poor country (like Uzbekistan) tells you to go.
but then you can't distract people from other issues that actually matter to most people in everyday life, not everyone has Mexicans/Muslims to blame, a policy on blaming the foreigners has always been popular in democracies, sad but true to an extent.
This is a terrible thing to happen but trust me those soldiers will get whats coming to them. A friend of mine is a marine and he once told me that if one of them ever willingly hurt an innocent that they better as hell get kicked out because they would make them pay.
On October 09 2011 05:58 Fus wrote: So, this is US military. US should just shut down 7/8 of their military and do something useful with the money, like making free healthcare for everyone. Why does America think they have to control the world?
Why does the US stick it's nose everywhere? Because the rest of the world wants us there and we've taken over the role of protector of everyone else. I don't agree with it, but it IS the current situation until it can be altered.
Wow that's one of the most ignorant statements I've read lately. The same could be said about Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union during and after WW2 then. Of course the US is no tyrant, no no, hahaha we all know that.
In fact, the USA are what saved us (Europe) from Nazi Germany. Disgusting comparison.
Actually the Russians (Soviets back then) held the line virtually alone against the Wermacht/ Nazi push before D-Day (US/GBR 2nd front) ). However you could be correct if you are speaking about Western Europe in that USA saved most of Western Europe from becoming part of the Communist block.
On October 09 2011 18:48 AutomatonOmega wrote: Great job making Americans look even more like idiots than they were already, soldiers. I didn't even think it was possible.
To those who say that this is an isolated case, and is not important whether or not Americans did it because anyone can rape.
A lesson in psychology/sociology: 1. American guy enters Korean progaming BW team - chance Koreans winning 100% of BW WCG since time immemorial - not chance
2. Black guy winning a surfing contest - chance 99% of NBA players in history being black - definitely not chance
3. Non-American guy winning governorship in America - chance All but one of US Presidents being black - most definitely not chance.
By chance here I mean an event that can be isolated and is statistically improbable. Not chance are events that happen by design, with the conditions actually structured in certain ways to make things happen as they do.
Going back to the US Soldiers. Certainly there is a chance that it could have been done by a French soldier, or a Taliban rebel. But these abuses by the US Army is not isolated. They are not something you can say that happens without being related to the conditions that envelope them. Throughout history, US soldiers have conducted abuses (rape mostly, but there is also torture, but that's another story) in all their military bases outside USA. It happened/happens in KOrea, In Japan, in Vietnam, in Philipines, etc. Is this a rare coincidence? Without overwhelming statistics, it's easy to think so. But reality tells us otherwise. As Milkis said, the worse thing is that these US soldiers has and will always get away with it with a mere slap in the wrist (being decommissioned or reassigned) because part of the bilateral agreement is the jurisdiction to these soldiers conducts, which is US, and not host country. Does this therefore tolerate, even encourage a certain degree of disregard for the law among US military in foreign countries? The record state for themselves.
But having said this, it is still in the level of investigation, and the soldiers are still "suspect" and not criminals, so we should treat this situation as such.
On October 10 2011 04:35 SojuTerran wrote: To those who say that this is an isolated case, and is not important whether or not Americans did it because anyone can rape.
A lesson in psychology/sociology: 1. American guy enters Korean progaming BW team - chance Koreans winning 100% of BW WCG since time immemorial - not chance
2. Black guy winning a surfing contest - chance 99% of NBA players in history being black - definitely not chance
3. Non-American guy winning governorship in America - chance All but one of US Presidents being black - most definitely not chance.
By chance here I mean an event that can be isolated and is statistically improbable. Not chance are events that happen by design, with the conditions actually structured in certain ways to make things happen as they do.
Going back to the US Soldiers. Certainly there is a chance that it could have been done by a French soldier, or a Taliban rebel. But these abuses by the US Army is not isolated. They are not something you can say that happens without being related to the conditions that envelope them. Throughout history, US soldiers have conducted abuses (rape mostly, but there is also torture, but that's another story) in all their military bases outside USA. It happened/happens in KOrea, In Japan, in Vietnam, in Philipines, etc. Is this a rare coincidence? Without overwhelming statistics, it's easy to think so. But reality tells us otherwise. As Milkis said, the worse thing is that these US soldiers has and will always get away with it with a mere slap in the wrist (being decommissioned or reassigned) because part of the bilateral agreement is the jurisdiction to these soldiers conducts, which is US, and not host country. Does this therefore tolerate, even encourage a certain degree of disregard for the law among US military in foreign countries? The record state for themselves.
But having said this, it is still in the level of investigation, and the soldiers are still "suspect" and not criminals, so we should treat this situation as such.
I'm kind of confused why you spend a good bit of your post talking about chance and statistics when you don't provide any statistics whatsoever to back up your claim. As far as you I can tell all you did is stereotype a group of people and then justify it by saying "reality tells us this." Is it a coincidence that you only have 3 posts? You might think so, but reality tells us otherwise.
On October 10 2011 04:35 SojuTerran wrote: To those who say that this is an isolated case, and is not important whether or not Americans did it because anyone can rape.
A lesson in psychology/sociology: 1. American guy enters Korean progaming BW team - chance Koreans winning 100% of BW WCG since time immemorial - not chance
2. Black guy winning a surfing contest - chance 99% of NBA players in history being black - definitely not chance
3. Non-American guy winning governorship in America - chance All but one of US Presidents being black - most definitely not chance.
By chance here I mean an event that can be isolated and is statistically improbable. Not chance are events that happen by design, with the conditions actually structured in certain ways to make things happen as they do.
Going back to the US Soldiers. Certainly there is a chance that it could have been done by a French soldier, or a Taliban rebel. But these abuses by the US Army is not isolated. They are not something you can say that happens without being related to the conditions that envelope them. Throughout history, US soldiers have conducted abuses (rape mostly, but there is also torture, but that's another story) in all their military bases outside USA. It happened/happens in KOrea, In Japan, in Vietnam, in Philipines, etc. Is this a rare coincidence? Without overwhelming statistics, it's easy to think so. But reality tells us otherwise. As Milkis said, the worse thing is that these US soldiers has and will always get away with it with a mere slap in the wrist (being decommissioned or reassigned) because part of the bilateral agreement is the jurisdiction to these soldiers conducts, which is US, and not host country. Does this therefore tolerate, even encourage a certain degree of disregard for the law among US military in foreign countries? The record state for themselves.
But having said this, it is still in the level of investigation, and the soldiers are still "suspect" and not criminals, so we should treat this situation as such.
More hyperbole and unsupported accusations. If "the record state for themselves", then please, show us the record. See an earlier post by macil22) for an example of someone actually providing information.
Im not sure of the circumstances, but if they soldiers had been there long enough, it's only a matter of time until a couple of them snap for being without women for so long
Start withthis. Then look at the official record of US soldiers being reassigned, decommissioned, or held pending in the military court. BlackJack, Id rather have 1 post and be open to reality than have 5000+ posts and your level and quality of argumentation skills.
On October 10 2011 05:14 SojuTerran wrote: Start withthis. Then look at the official record of US soldiers being reassigned, decommissioned, or held pending in the military court. BlackJack, Id rather have 1 post and be open to reality than have 5000+ posts and your level and quality of argumentation skills.
Clearly you have seen this record, so you can link it for us instead of a generic google search.
On October 10 2011 05:14 SojuTerran wrote: Start withthis. Then look at the official record of US soldiers being reassigned, decommissioned, or held pending in the military court. BlackJack, Id rather have 1 post and be open to reality than have 5000+ posts and your level and quality of argumentation skills.
You aren't taking all the information into account. They alleged perpetrators were stationed in SK, they weren't on tour in an active war zone. An analogy might be trying to argue Koreans are at risk for being killed as collateral in US helicopter strikes with a reference being some statistic from the Iraq war. The psychological effects of an active war zone are doubtless different from the monotony of the garrison in Korea.
On October 10 2011 04:35 SojuTerran wrote: To those who say that this is an isolated case, and is not important whether or not Americans did it because anyone can rape.
A lesson in psychology/sociology: 1. American guy enters Korean progaming BW team - chance Koreans winning 100% of BW WCG since time immemorial - not chance
2. Black guy winning a surfing contest - chance 99% of NBA players in history being black - definitely not chance
3. Non-American guy winning governorship in America - chance All but one of US Presidents being black - most definitely not chance.
By chance here I mean an event that can be isolated and is statistically improbable. Not chance are events that happen by design, with the conditions actually structured in certain ways to make things happen as they do.
Going back to the US Soldiers. Certainly there is a chance that it could have been done by a French soldier, or a Taliban rebel. But these abuses by the US Army is not isolated. They are not something you can say that happens without being related to the conditions that envelope them. Throughout history, US soldiers have conducted abuses (rape mostly, but there is also torture, but that's another story) in all their military bases outside USA. It happened/happens in KOrea, In Japan, in Vietnam, in Philipines, etc. Is this a rare coincidence? Without overwhelming statistics, it's easy to think so. But reality tells us otherwise. As Milkis said, the worse thing is that these US soldiers has and will always get away with it with a mere slap in the wrist (being decommissioned or reassigned) because part of the bilateral agreement is the jurisdiction to these soldiers conducts, which is US, and not host country. Does this therefore tolerate, even encourage a certain degree of disregard for the law among US military in foreign countries? The record state for themselves.
But having said this, it is still in the level of investigation, and the soldiers are still "suspect" and not criminals, so we should treat this situation as such.
So far the only people who have shown any statistics have shown the opposite of what you are saying.
You talk about Japan while I already posted a few pages back statistics that show US forces in Okinawa are less likely to commit crime than the general population in that region.
If you think those statistics are wrong or are inadequate then explain or show your own evidence but please stop making stuff up. You haven't provided any evidence in any of your posts. I realize you hate the United States and I feel sorry for you, but it is no excuse to be a troll.
On October 09 2011 05:58 Fus wrote: So, this is US military. US should just shut down 7/8 of their military and do something useful with the money, like making free healthcare for everyone. Why does America think they have to control the world?
Why does the US stick it's nose everywhere? Because the rest of the world wants us there and we've taken over the role of protector of everyone else. I don't agree with it, but it IS the current situation until it can be altered.
Wow that's one of the most ignorant statements I've read lately. The same could be said about Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union during and after WW2 then. Of course the US is no tyrant, no no, hahaha we all know that.
In fact, the USA are what saved us (Europe) from Nazi Germany. Disgusting comparison.
Actually the Russians (Soviets back then) held the line virtually alone against the Wermacht/ Nazi push before D-Day (US/GBR 2nd front) ). However you could be correct if you are speaking about Western Europe in that USA saved most of Western Europe from becoming part of the Communist block.
You need to check up on your WWII history. The war against the Nazis was faught on 3 fronts. Russia, D-Day, AND Africa. Everyone who says the Russians could have won alone forgets Africa which was led by the US and the UK. In fact, the decisive end of the war in Europe came when Germany ran out of oil.
do we need so many troops in Korea still? it seems unneeded knowing that every male in korea has been or will be in the army, i don't think we need to be there anymore, i think incidents like this could be avoided.
On October 10 2011 03:23 semantics wrote: What about germany XD Obviously a divided germany after WWII had nothing to do with it...
oh you think it's funny? Let me see... Germany isn't divided anymore since 1990 - for 21 years! Isn't it somehow upsetting how glacially change happens (does it happen)? Why can't those troops go home now? Sometime in the future at least?
Also let me tell you something about nuclear fission. The Germans have become so upset with the risks involved and the waste produced by nuclear power plants, that they have become one of the first countries in the world set a date by which time the last nuclear power plant is switched off. This is after decades of demonstartions and it is a very emotional topic. I have heard from many people (old enough) that to them the most significant world event they experienced was the reactor catastrophe in Tschernobyl (look on a map - that didn't happen far from Germany at all). And now recently Fukushima really tipped the scales...
But i digress. What is this about? It is about political power and the democratic charade that after decades people are now finally sick of.
Before he was inaugurated Barrack Obama held a speech in Germany about living in a world without nuclear weapons.
Our foreign minister announced his resolve to remove the US nuclear weapons (germany has no nuclear weapons) stationed in Germany. He also said how unhappy the Germans are with the current arrangement. Nothing has happened.
Can you understand why people want to crush this rock status-quo preserving condescension? Why can there be no change? Why is it all just show?
It shouldn't surprise you that in such a powder keg of frustration, things that might seems hum-drum to you can ignite the fuse.
On October 10 2011 05:14 SojuTerran wrote: Start withthis. Then look at the official record of US soldiers being reassigned, decommissioned, or held pending in the military court. BlackJack, Id rather have 1 post and be open to reality than have 5000+ posts and your level and quality of argumentation skills.
Yeah, flaming another member is a great way to convince people that your opinion is correct and you have a higher 'level and quality of argumentation skills' than said member.
Why don't you just go play Starcraft for a bit and come back when you have a bit more of a respectable attitude.
The US could reduce the number of troops in South Korea to 5000 or less and still provide an adequate deterrant to the North. After all the troops are primarily there as a 'tripwire' (you kill US troops then the US is justified in throwing everything at you). South Korea has more than enough back-up manpower due to compulsory military service that 20 000 US soliders would not be missed. It would save US taxpayers a lot of money and reduce these sort of incidents as well.
On October 10 2011 06:57 jax1492 wrote: do we need so many troops in Korea still? it seems unneeded knowing that every male in korea has been or will be in the army, i don't think we need to be there anymore, i think incidents like this could be avoided.
The usa will not trust the koreans to watch over the very strategic locations. South Korea was saved from being taken over by North Korea by the USA(i think they are very ungrateful to be honest) as far as the military training goes, we are better trained and their are very few military armies trained as well as the USA.
Now you say avoid the incidents? How? Will these two males who you dont even know not rape in America? Will they magically grow morals and not do the exact same thing in their home country?listen to me when i say this, location means nothing when a person commits a crime for they could do it just as easily in America and many other countries.
If you say sure then do you know what type of rape they are being accused of? Is it violent forceful rape?Did the girls die due to them being so forceful?Was it a form of statutory rape? What if the girls lied about being raped?
we do not have enough details on that but that sums up my answers to your questions
On October 10 2011 06:57 jax1492 wrote: do we need so many troops in Korea still? it seems unneeded knowing that every male in korea has been or will be in the army, i don't think we need to be there anymore, i think incidents like this could be avoided.
Now you say avoid the incidents? How? Will these two males who you dont even know not rape in America?
I don't like this justification. Rapes are mostly crimes of opportunity. You have American soldiers wandering around in a foreign country knowing that they can get away with almost anything because they're the property of the U.S. government, and guess what, you're giving them an opening. Sure, they might commit a crime in the U.S., but the likelihood that they will commit a crime in a foreign country is magnified.
And LOL at your opinion on being grateful. Typical.
The problem isn't that Koreans are ungrateful. The problem is that the US doesn't have a foreign policy that is popular outside of the US. Things like the Food Trade Agreement, which Koreans hate (making food cheaper here, and thereby pushing local farmers out of business) are perceived to be due to purely American influences.
I actually have a really hard time figuring out (specifically) why the Koreans have such a big problem with Americans, because there's so much noise, like stupid shit about the FTA. Maybe it's because we laugh at their precious shit like "fan death" or blood type personality voodoo, or maybe it's something more substantial that they really don't like talking about.
@BluePanther it's a big deal because they're untouchable. The worst that will happen to them, if they are indeed found guilty, is that they'll spend a few (<6) months in army jail (which are much nicer than real jails), then they'll continue working as before... quite possibly still posted in South Korea.
On October 10 2011 06:57 jax1492 wrote: do we need so many troops in Korea still? it seems unneeded knowing that every male in korea has been or will be in the army, i don't think we need to be there anymore, i think incidents like this could be avoided.
I'm much more in favor of our guys being on the DMZ as opposed to most of the other places US soldiers are at the moment.
But to the story, these kind of things happen everywhere. It's not something unique to Americans, soldiers, or people visiting Korea. The main thing is making sure the people are punished accordingly and that everything possible is done to prevent this kind of thing from happening again.
On October 10 2011 20:20 BottleAbuser wrote: @BluePanther it's a big deal because they're untouchable. The worst that will happen to them, if they are indeed found guilty, is that they'll spend a few (<6) months in army jail (which are much nicer than real jails), then they'll continue working as before... quite possibly still posted in South Korea.
Actually under the UCMJ (military code of conduct) the penalty for rape is severe.
"Rape and Rape of a Child: Dishonorable Discharge, death or confinement for Life, and forfeiture of all pay and allowances."
Lesser charges of Aggravated sexual assault, can also be punished by up to 30 years in prison, which for a member of the military means a trip to Leavenworth.
What kind of punishment will they receive? Were the girls above or below the age of consent?
What are the rape laws in Korea like? Will they be tried in an American military court or a Korean civilian one? (no clue about the legal system there)
@johanngrunt Koreans can't touch 'em. They'll be tried by the US Army. I'd assume that they're 18 or 19, considering that they are referred to as teenagers, but their ages haven't been specified otherwise (really, would you expect any sort of news agency to not shout it from the rooftops if they were younger?).
On October 10 2011 20:34 johanngrunt wrote: What kind of punishment will they receive? Were the girls above or below the age of consent?
What are the rape laws in Korea like? Will they be tried in an American military court or a Korean civilian one? (no clue about the legal system there)
Did they manage to get any forensic evidence?
They will be tried in Military Court, so the laws in Korea don't really apply.
On October 10 2011 20:20 BottleAbuser wrote: @BluePanther it's a big deal because they're untouchable. The worst that will happen to them, if they are indeed found guilty, is that they'll spend a few (<6) months in army jail (which are much nicer than real jails), then they'll continue working as before... quite possibly still posted in South Korea.
Ummm... no. I was in the U.S. military. They are not untouchable, and they will not enjoy their prison stay by any means.
And this would be news if somehow corruption got them off or something. Americans would be livid. But if he's guilty, he's going to get what's coming to him, trust me.
I'm in the Air Force. I'm not a soldier... we're called airman, but I'm still in the military so you can call me a US troop. This was the first weekend we got put back on curfew and it doesn't even really matter. The curfew is from 3 AM to 5 AM. (two hours that we can't be found roaming Songtan (Osan) or Itaewon. Weekdays the curfew is from 12 to 5 AM, but I work weekdays usually so my ass should be sleeping before 12 anyways.
I thought we were on curfew because I heard numerous army guys were caught with spice (drug) and causing mischief in Itaewon clubs, for example being banned from that UN club.
I swear I feel like it's mainly Army fucking things up for us.
Oh yeah and I've been in Korea since 2007. I've been here when we had a weekend curfew of 1 AM, then 3 AM, then they took the curfew away.... and now it's back. I'm surprised it took so long for them to put us back on curfew.
Actually the Russians (Soviets back then) held the line virtually alone against the Wermacht/ Nazi push before D-Day (US/GBR 2nd front) ). However you could be correct if you are speaking about Western Europe in that USA saved most of Western Europe from becoming part of the Communist block.
well there were the north african and italian fronts
and it was americans and british not russians bombing germany for most of the war
also the us sent to russia about 50,000 trucks, tens of thousands of planes and tanks and artillery guns and mortars, millions of rifles and hundreds of millions of rounds of ammunition, tons and tons of food and medical supplies and raw materials, and we also sent hundreds of technical experts to help the russians rebuild their factories east of the urals (and teach them how to build better designed factories period).
we didnt exactly leave the russians hanging high and dry to trade body blows with hitler before we decided to step our dainty little toes into the water
to sojuterran:
using your "logic" then russians are the most likely to rape and worst rapists ever since they raped about 2-3 million german women during the end and aftermath of world war 2. which is silly russians are no more or less likely to rape than anyone else.
reason for tens of thousands of soldiers in south korea is to ensure that if the north attacks the US has to defend the South
if we only had a few thousand or hundred soldiers there and the north invaded, well these days we might not go 100% to help south korea. having a lot of american boys there ensures that we won't just leave them - and by extension south korea - on their own.
reason for the bases in germany is that they are a major logistical and medical center that is a big component in the american ability to project force globally. we probably dont need quite that many regular infantry stationed there though.
On October 10 2011 20:20 BottleAbuser wrote: @BluePanther it's a big deal because they're untouchable. The worst that will happen to them, if they are indeed found guilty, is that they'll spend a few (<6) months in army jail (which are much nicer than real jails), then they'll continue working as before... quite possibly still posted in South Korea.
You have no clue what you're talking about. Please do not post completely baseless trash. All members of the military serving in korea can be punished under ucmj and korean law. The sofa (status of armed forces agreement) between korea and the us says that the korean police have to contact the army and turn you over to them asap but these guys will still be tried in korean courts... likely spend years in korean prison. And when they finally get out of jail they will be dishonerably discharged, court martialed. And sent to fort levenworth which is a notorioisly nasty military prison where they will likely be the ones on the receiving end so to speak.
Source: I'm in the army I served a tour in korea last year.
On October 11 2011 08:27 DeadCell wrote: This is so horrible!
I can't believe U.S. service members were also charged with rape in 1995!?
I certainly hope justice is served for these unforgivable acts.
How could you ruin a young girls life...T.T
Perhaps you should look at it rationally. The US has had 30,000 troops stationed there for a long time. The average rate of rape in the US is about 28 per 100,000 people, as mentioned earlier in this thread. So if you had 30,000 random US citizens you could expect 28 *3/10 = 8.4 rapes per year among that group. The fact that we've gone 16 years between rapes, one of the most recent events shows that the soldiers in Korea are relatively well behaved.
If you have any group of significant size it's going to happen. You really can't hold the entire military accountable for a few bad apples.
I love America and I love its soldiers, but events like these make me feel ashamed and disappointed, especially since I'm half-Korean. I hope these men will come to justice.
Itaewon and Songtan are rubbish piss. Any foreigner that ever goes to Korea will figure this out and either fit right in with the idiocy or swear to never go there. The Army does such a bs job of making Americans proud there. What a cesspool of idiots.
I'm American and avoid Itaewon like the plague for reasons like this. Rape is imminent, and I don't want to be generalized into it. It's getting really bad at night for native Koreans. The Americans/Canadians there are seriously getting out of hand. Even Hongdae is on the down-swing.
disgusting death sentence, not only are they soldiers who should be upholding some code of honour and decency since they are the ones with the guns, but they are soldiers representing your country america in another country and they should have also thought of that beforehand.....truly simple people
10 years is sufficient to show the Koreans they take it seriously. I think justice and sanity has prevailed here. Hopefully both nations can accept that this was an unfortunate act of an individual which has been dealt with and move on from it.
On November 03 2011 03:48 KwarK wrote: 10 years is sufficient to show the Koreans they take it seriously. I think justice and sanity has prevailed here. Hopefully both nations can accept that this was an unfortunate act of an individual which has been dealt with and move on from it.
From the article it sounds like that was a Korean Court. The Military could press additional charges against him under the UCMJ...
On November 03 2011 03:39 tGFuRy wrote: This pisses me off... Giving other countries more excuses to hate us. I wished they made it more than 10 years... Make it life in prison please.
Seriously, life in prison? I can understand wanting a harsher punishment but proclaiming life in prison for a first time offender is absurd, get a grip. It changes nothing in the big picture, the US will be there for political reasons being our close ties between our two militarys, and the Korean people still don't like Americans in Korea, they will hate us until we leave putting a guy in prison for life wont make them suddenly like us or make everything okay again, its far more complicated then that.
On November 03 2011 03:48 KwarK wrote: 10 years is sufficient to show the Koreans they take it seriously. I think justice and sanity has prevailed here. Hopefully both nations can accept that this was an unfortunate act of an individual which has been dealt with and move on from it.
From the article it sounds like that was a Korean Court. The Military could press additional charges against him under the UCMJ...
This is very true, if it was a korean court he could, and likely will punished under UCMJ once released by the Koreans, double dipping is not uncommon in cases like this.
I'm a member of the United States Air Force, and I personally think that the US should get out of every foreign country in the world, except maybe one or two key spots. We spend way too much money policing the world, and all it does is cause more trouble than it's worth. This is a prime example of that.
Also, anyone who thinks NK poses a threat to SK in any capacity is uninformed. NK may spend an inordinate amount of their budget on their military, but SK is still stronger in every way. NK poses no threat to anyone.
On October 11 2011 09:17 Quesadilla wrote: Itaewon and Songtan are rubbish piss. Any foreigner that ever goes to Korea will figure this out and either fit right in with the idiocy or swear to never go there. The Army does such a bs job of making Americans proud there. What a cesspool of idiots.
I'm American and avoid Itaewon like the plague for reasons like this. Rape is imminent, and I don't want to be generalized into it. It's getting really bad at night for native Koreans. The Americans/Canadians there are seriously getting out of hand. Even Hongdae is on the down-swing.
When I was stationed in Korea in 2002-2003, it was the same. The Americanized parts of the country are shit. It's a god damn shame.
'In 2002, the acquittals of two American soldiers whose armored vehicle ran over and killed two South Korean schoolgirls during training prompted nationwide protests against the U.S. military presence in the country.'
Mmm. I live in an apartment with a lot of US soldiers, and the general reaction I get from people when I tell them that is "Holy fuck be careful" and even a few "Don't get into an elevator with one of them at night." I don't think there's ever not been an anti-armed force sentiment in Korea...
On November 03 2011 05:06 ryanAnger wrote: I'm a member of the United States Air Force, and I personally think that the US should get out of every foreign country in the world, except maybe one or two key spots. We spend way too much money policing the world, and all it does is cause more trouble than it's worth. This is a prime example of that.
Also, anyone who thinks NK poses a threat to SK in any capacity is uninformed. NK may spend an inordinate amount of their budget on their military, but SK is still stronger in every way. NK poses no threat to anyone.
Yes the South Korean military is stronger, but not in every way. The fact that Seoul is so close to the border means that preemptive artillery barrages would be devastating to the city. Also numbers plays a huge role in a war even if their soldiers are way less equipped and trained. The only downside i see to their numbers is the food it would take to feed an army of that size. An army marches on its stomach.
Also not every single person would be ready for a draft at the exact moment an attack would happen. Who knows how much ground North Korea would gain before the military was actually ready.
North Korea isn't going to say let's have a war in 2 weeks and let SK get ready they will attack when ever without warning.
This is all irrelevant though because as long as the US is in SK it gives the US a valid reason to defend them and NK knows they would get rofl stomped even if we are already involved in 2 conflicts already.
On October 09 2011 05:58 Fus wrote: So, this is US military. US should just shut down 7/8 of their military and do something useful with the money, like making free healthcare for everyone. Why does America think they have to control the world?
Why does the US stick it's nose everywhere? Because the rest of the world wants us there and we've taken over the role of protector of everyone else. I don't agree with it, but it IS the current situation until it can be altered.
Our military is the same as our population, a lot of really good people with a few truly rotten apples mixed into group. I've been 'accused' of some bad things in 11 years of law enforcement. None of them were true and I was exonerated in the end. Let the courts figure it out, if they are guilty, bury them. If the girls are shown to be lying, charge them with false accusation/libel/slander and punish them accordingly.
I call bullshit, this is just another form of propaganda that people want you to think. And even if it is the case, tough fucking shit. It's not our job to be the protector of everyone else in the world. If they can't stand on their own, then they aren't strong enough and should be allowed to go under.
rape is the only crime a believe should carry death penalty there is no way that you thought you were right when you forced sexual activities upon someone. both of these sick individuals if it can be proved that each instance was forced sex should be killed publicaly preferably crucified and tortured before. rape is the most heinous of crimes worse then killing for profit
Quote the Judge: “While the defendant satisfied his sadistic and perverted sexual desire for three hours, the victim was forced to endure fear and shame at her own home, where she was entitled to have her Peace.”
Geez that sounds pretty angry to me. 3 Hours is a long time to be raped. I don't think our armed service is evil or anything, but we should prolly do a better job at keeping the bad apples in the base or something. geez.
As a Korean myself I was in Korea for the protests involving the 2 girls getting run over by a truck. Korean's are NOT hating on Americans just because of these incidents. In fact they are well aware that rape, accidental (or not) manslaughter and other crimes should not be affiliated to soldiers and are in fact normal crimes.
The real reason they are angry (and frustrated) is because the U.S. Army attempts to cover these incidents and immediately puts the guilty soldiers into their own custody (that being the U.S. Consulate). Koreans feel that the U.S. Government is flexing it's muscles and protecting it's own, while at the same time undermining Korean authority and government. It is a mockery of their own laws and rules that govern such crimes (when the crimes are clearly committed on Korean soil), and it completely gives people the (true) impression that the U.S. Army has power over the Korean government.
10 years is just the U.S. government's pathetic attempt to show good faith and appeal to the masses. Such a crime would have much harsher punishments in Korea, especially when "10 years" usually means 3-6 in American language.
=/ Politics. Poor girl will be probably be infamous forever now and scarred for life, not necessarily because of the incident but definitely because of the widespread coverage.
On November 03 2011 05:33 x6.Chouji wrote: 10 years is just the U.S. government's pathetic attempt to show good faith and appeal to the masses. Such a crime would have much harsher punishments in Korea, especially when "10 years" usually means 3-6 in American language.
Please re-read the article:
"A South Korean court sentenced an American Army private to 10 years in prison on Tuesday for raping an 18-year-old South Korean woman, the most severe such ruling in almost 20 years."
There's no US Trial here. The US handed over the soldier to Korean authorities and the Korean court system concluded that 10 years is an acceptable punishment.
On November 03 2011 05:33 x6.Chouji wrote: I don't think you guys seem to understand:
As a Korean myself I was in Korea for the protests involving the 2 girls getting run over by a truck. Korean's are NOT hating on Americans just because of these incidents. In fact they are well aware that rape, accidental (or not) manslaughter and other crimes should not be affiliated to soldiers and are in fact normal crimes.
The real reason they are angry (and frustrated) is because the U.S. Army attempts to cover these incidents and immediately puts the guilty soldiers into their own custody (that being the U.S. Consulate). Koreans feel that the U.S. Government is flexing it's muscles and protecting it's own, while at the same time undermining Korean authority and government. It is a mockery of their own laws and rules that govern such crimes (when the crimes are clearly committed on Korean soil), and it completely gives people the (true) impression that the U.S. Army has power over the Korean government.
10 years is just the U.S. government's pathetic attempt to show good faith and appeal to the masses. Such a crime would have much harsher punishments in Korea, especially when "10 years" usually means 3-6 in American language.
=/ Politics. Poor girl will be probably be infamous forever now and scarred for life, not necessarily because of the incident but definitely because of the widespread coverage.
Well is kinda our countryies duty to protect our citizens formost, even criminals I guess. Also our Max sentence for Rape is the US is bout 18 years with a min of bout 8 years. 10 years is about right for rape (at least legally).
He got tried and Korea and sentenced in Korea. 10 years is still a long time to serve in jail. I think this actually is one of the rare cases where some justice has been served.
On November 03 2011 05:33 x6.Chouji wrote: 10 years is just the U.S. government's pathetic attempt to show good faith and appeal to the masses. Such a crime would have much harsher punishments in Korea, especially when "10 years" usually means 3-6 in American language.
Are you kidding me? The average incarceration rate (-edit- oops I meant) length for first time rape offenders in Korea is around 3 years or something like that.
I don't get why he gets a lesser sentence because it was his 'first' time. The first act of rape happened in his head (the planning) , the second act was him raping her and threatening to kill her. He should get minimum 25 yrs.
Two out of fifty thousand people committing rape = not statistically unlikely. Using this against U.S. troop presence is not a good argument. Comments such as "What the fuck is wrong with soldiers today..." are emotional bullshit.
Why is debating or stating your opinion more about rhetorics or emotion than what it should be - about logic (statistics and numbers). Basing a statement such as "What the fuck is wrong with soldiers today..." on this event is, if not a lie, an attempt to mislead or just a failure to think rationally.
This is a case of two people being morons. The punishment turned out to be severe (more sever than normally due to political reasons) but this is not an issue with U.S. troop presence.
On November 03 2011 05:33 x6.Chouji wrote: I don't think you guys seem to understand:
As a Korean myself I was in Korea for the protests involving the 2 girls getting run over by a truck. Korean's are NOT hating on Americans just because of these incidents. In fact they are well aware that rape, accidental (or not) manslaughter and other crimes should not be affiliated to soldiers and are in fact normal crimes.
The real reason they are angry (and frustrated) is because the U.S. Army attempts to cover these incidents and immediately puts the guilty soldiers into their own custody (that being the U.S. Consulate). Koreans feel that the U.S. Government is flexing it's muscles and protecting it's own, while at the same time undermining Korean authority and government. It is a mockery of their own laws and rules that govern such crimes (when the crimes are clearly committed on Korean soil), and it completely gives people the (true) impression that the U.S. Army has power over the Korean government.
10 years is just the U.S. government's pathetic attempt to show good faith and appeal to the masses. Such a crime would have much harsher punishments in Korea, especially when "10 years" usually means 3-6 in American language.
=/ Politics. Poor girl will be probably be infamous forever now and scarred for life, not necessarily because of the incident but definitely because of the widespread coverage.
Some excellent points. I think I'm going to stop watching the news. There is far too much fucked up shit that happens - people getting raped, kidnapped, imprisoned and tortured for years, murders - the list is endless for morally reprehensible bullshit.
this is just awful... and very upsetting.. I hope these two pay for their actions.... how can they do that... they're supposed to protect civilians yet they do this.. sigh I hate people ;;
On November 03 2011 05:33 x6.Chouji wrote: I don't think you guys seem to understand:
As a Korean myself I was in Korea for the protests involving the 2 girls getting run over by a truck. Korean's are NOT hating on Americans just because of these incidents. In fact they are well aware that rape, accidental (or not) manslaughter and other crimes should not be affiliated to soldiers and are in fact normal crimes.
The real reason they are angry (and frustrated) is because the U.S. Army attempts to cover these incidents and immediately puts the guilty soldiers into their own custody (that being the U.S. Consulate). Koreans feel that the U.S. Government is flexing it's muscles and protecting it's own, while at the same time undermining Korean authority and government. It is a mockery of their own laws and rules that govern such crimes (when the crimes are clearly committed on Korean soil), and it completely gives people the (true) impression that the U.S. Army has power over the Korean government.
10 years is just the U.S. government's pathetic attempt to show good faith and appeal to the masses. Such a crime would have much harsher punishments in Korea, especially when "10 years" usually means 3-6 in American language.
=/ Politics. Poor girl will be probably be infamous forever now and scarred for life, not necessarily because of the incident but definitely because of the widespread coverage.
Should've read this before posting (my post is four posts above).
My point still applies to a lot of people in this thread though.
really unfortunate that events like this, perpetrated (allegedly) by just 2 soldiers using poor judgement reflects on the military and the country as a whole. the VAST majority of the military are moral, upstanding men and women but this casts a shadow on them. hopefully if they are brought to justice and as a country and military we sincerely apologize it can repair some of the damage.
As a follow up, it looks like there's been justice in at least one of these cases:
The Uijeongbu District Court on Tuesday sentenced a 21-year-old U.S. Army private of the 2nd U.S. Infantry Division to 10 years in prison. ...
The 10-year sentence on him was the heaviest penalty ever handed down to a U.S. serviceman since the 2001 revision of the Status of Forces Agreement. Under the revised SOFA, Korea now can ask the U.S. military to hand over custody of suspects in 12 major crimes such as murder, rape, and drug trafficking when they are indicted. In the past, Korea was only able to ask for custody of such suspects only after court proceedings were completed. ... The soldier will serve his term in a Korean penitentiary.
We have been discussing about it for couple of pages now. But i agree, i'm glad he got 10 years. I'm tired of seeing Finnish justice system giving easy time for rapers/molesters.
On November 03 2011 05:56 Taug wrote: I don't get why he gets a lesser sentence because it was his 'first' time. The first act of rape happened in his head (the planning) , the second act was him raping her and threatening to kill her. He should get minimum 25 yrs.
I think this is a terrible crime, but your logic is not sound and actually dangerous. Basically you're talking about Orwellian thought crime here. No, he did not commit rape by thinking about it.
On November 03 2011 06:02 Gigaudas wrote: Two out of fifty thousand people committing rape = not statistically unlikely. Using this against U.S. troop presence is not a good argument. Comments such as "What the fuck is wrong with soldiers today..." are emotional bullshit.
Why is debating or stating your opinion more about rhetorics or emotion than what it should be - about logic (statistics and numbers). Basing a statement such as "What the fuck is wrong with soldiers today..." on this event is, if not a lie, an attempt to mislead or just a failure to think rationally.
This is a case of two people being morons. The punishment turned out to be severe (more sever than normally due to political reasons) but this is not an issue with U.S. troop presence.
You're applying statistics across a general population to a specific group of people: soldiers. Chances are crime rates amongst soldiers is lower than that of the civilian population. If it isn't, then I think you'd be hard pressed to argue that something isn't wrong with soldiers then if they commit more crimes than civilians.
And ultimately, when you have soldiers stationed overseas, having them commit crimes against the local civilian populations is definitely different than the day to day rape that happens. No, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect zero rapes from US soldiers stationed overseas. I mean that both emotionally and pragmatically.
On November 05 2011 20:49 StuartLove wrote: is sex with koeans forbidden?
Are you stupid or you just didn't bother reading anything? (or it might just have been a stupid question)
Two U.S. soldiers have been accused of raping teenage girls in South Korea in separate incidents, prompting U.S. military officials to apologize Saturday as they tried to ease growing public anger.
In the USA alone, there is a rape every 2 minutes. Yet, we never hear about these ~700 women every day...
Dont get me wrong, rape is of course awful but I find it wrong how it has seen the public eye only because it was committed by an American soldier. Like it's more important because of the rapist's identify not the actual crime itself. A sad state of affairs for all the victims.
This is yet another example of why standing armies are bad. They cause conflict, military build-up, arms race, spreads the inherent fascist culture within in the army out to the society as a whole, celebrates the patriarchal structure and encourage violence as a way to solve conflict between states ad people.
On November 05 2011 21:09 Psychobabas wrote: In the USA alone, there is a rape every 2 minutes. Yet, we never hear about these ~700 women every day...
Dont get me wrong, rape is of course awful but I find it wrong how it has seen the public eye only because it was committed by an American soldier. Like it's more important because of the rapist's identify not the actual crime itself. A sad state of affairs for all the victims.
Like I mentioned in my previous post, applying statistics across general populations to soldiers makes zero sense because:
1) Yes, we do expect soldiers to be better people than civilians. 2) Fact is, crimes committed against people of other countrymen get more exposure. Seeing as how you're from the UK, I imagine you heard of the Meredith Kercher murder. So what happens when I say you're not allowed to analyze, talk about or care about the murder because homicides happen every day?
Basically I find it baffling to hold the opinion: "Well this terrible crime happens all the time. So we're not allowed to talk about this one incident because it's belittling to all of the victims of this terrible crime." Should people not be allowed to talk about individuals who have died to cancer either because that is unfair to all cancer patients?
While I'll start off with saying yes, it is unfortunate that these events happened and those accused should be punished to the upmost extent of which ever jurisdiction holds custody of the case. However, the hate towards the US military, ESPECIALLY from other Americans kind of worries me.
While I'm not stationed around the region in question, I have a lot of friends who currently are and have been. Army, AF, and Marines. There are bad people everywhere and them being military personnel does not change that nor does it empower them in anyway what so ever.
Someone mentioned "What's wrong with soldiers now a days?" I ask, what do you mean? Do you mean taking a 20 year old KID and putting him on the other side of the world away from his comfort zone, family, friends, etc for X amount of years, working non stop and constantly being pushed by his chain of command has adverse side effects that could trigger abnormal actions from an individual that under normal circumstances probably wouldn't occur? If so, then yes I agree. However if you meant to state that american soldiers are garbage and try to exploit, abuse, and outright ignore foreign laws and policy because they have little to no repercussions then I feel you are sadly misinformed.
An Army Private is hardly a professional in his chosen career field. He is an apprentice at best. Young and stupid just like anyone at that age.
I've always wondered why if the Koreans and Japanese hate us so much then why are most military spouses Korean or Japanese? Sometimes it's for the money, or a ticket out of the country. Sounds stupid, but a guarantee you it's truth. Any girl can claim rape even if it was consensual. I've seen it happen multiple times in my career, even stateside. Not saying that's the case here, but certainly it shouldn't be overlooked as plausible.
While I do agree we have to many bases around the world, and while many will be closing their doors soon, don't expect the presence in Korea or Japan to go away. They are fighter bases for a reason. We don't have that many troops and weapons there to flex the American super power. The military is about saving money just like any other business, and while a lot of spending may seem irresponsible and excessive, a lot of it is not as well. A lot of living situations for military members is sub par, especially when it comes to the Army in comparison. You don't see a lot of the spending cuts we do, because you aren't directly effected by them.
Sorry for the rant, but unless you have served it's really irritating when someone bashes any military service and talks about how they know it all and how easily it could be changed for the better. This situation certainly should not be about the military presence or the actions of the smallest margin of its people. Simply those involved.
On November 06 2011 05:42 BabyCrusher wrote: Active duty USAF here..
While I'll start off with saying yes, it is unfortunate that these events happened and those accused should be punished to the upmost extent of which ever jurisdiction holds custody of the case. However, the hate towards the US military, ESPECIALLY from other Americans kind of worries me.
While I'm not stationed around the region in question, I have a lot of friends who currently are and have been. Army, AF, and Marines. There are bad people everywhere and them being military personnel does not change that nor does it empower them in anyway what so ever.
Someone mentioned "What's wrong with soldiers now a days?" I ask, what do you mean? Do you mean taking a 20 year old KID and putting him on the other side of the world away from his comfort zone, family, friends, etc for X amount of years, working non stop and constantly being pushed by his chain of command has adverse side effects that could trigger abnormal actions from an individual that under normal circumstances probably wouldn't occur? If so, then yes I agree. However if you meant to state that american soldiers are garbage and try to exploit, abuse, and outright ignore foreign laws and policy because they have little to no repercussions then I feel you are sadly misinformed.
An Army Private is hardly a professional in his chosen career field. He is an apprentice at best. Young and stupid just like anyone at that age.
Apologists runnin' wild all up in this bitch. So, soldiers who rape are just young, stupid, confused kids. Awesome. Who needs accountability? Looks like rapists are just misunderstood people!
Your frequent references to age and rank disturb me. Exactly how old does someone have to be, or how "professional" does somehow have to be, before we can condemn them as rapists? 21 years old? 22? Ranked as Sergeants or higher? Fucking bullshit, man.
On November 06 2011 05:42 BabyCrusher wrote: Active duty USAF here..
While I'll start off with saying yes, it is unfortunate that these events happened and those accused should be punished to the upmost extent of which ever jurisdiction holds custody of the case. However, the hate towards the US military, ESPECIALLY from other Americans kind of worries me.
While I'm not stationed around the region in question, I have a lot of friends who currently are and have been. Army, AF, and Marines. There are bad people everywhere and them being military personnel does not change that nor does it empower them in anyway what so ever.
Someone mentioned "What's wrong with soldiers now a days?" I ask, what do you mean? Do you mean taking a 20 year old KID and putting him on the other side of the world away from his comfort zone, family, friends, etc for X amount of years, working non stop and constantly being pushed by his chain of command has adverse side effects that could trigger abnormal actions from an individual that under normal circumstances probably wouldn't occur? If so, then yes I agree. However if you meant to state that american soldiers are garbage and try to exploit, abuse, and outright ignore foreign laws and policy because they have little to no repercussions then I feel you are sadly misinformed.
An Army Private is hardly a professional in his chosen career field. He is an apprentice at best. Young and stupid just like anyone at that age.
Apologists runnin' wild all up in this bitch. So, soldiers who rape are just young, stupid, confused kids. Awesome. Who needs accountability? Looks like rapists are just misunderstood people!
Your frequent references to age and rank disturb me. Exactly how old does someone have to be, or how "professional" does somehow have to be, before we can condemn them as rapists? 21 years old? 22? Ranked as Sergeants or higher? Fucking bullshit, man.
yea completely agree, you need to put your military membership-bias to the side and judge it as it is.
Oh yes, we're the fucking police of the world. Let's place soldiers in every country so that they can bring their ignorant US bravado and do whatever the hell they want. Everyone keeps saying "It's a shame these people bring a bad name to our military" and stuff like that, but give me a break. This happens constantly. This is not just one instance, but NUMEROUS instances where US soldiers fuck shit up in non-combat regions. You're right, they don't represent our military as a whole. But they do represent a PART of the military. And that's the big problem. I seriously don't see any justifications for putting US troops in other countries. If we put troops in their country, then they have a right to put theirs in ours, under the guise of a "Just in case" scenario. Such hypocrisy.
On November 06 2011 05:42 BabyCrusher wrote: Active duty USAF here..
While I'll start off with saying yes, it is unfortunate that these events happened and those accused should be punished to the upmost extent of which ever jurisdiction holds custody of the case. However, the hate towards the US military, ESPECIALLY from other Americans kind of worries me.
While I'm not stationed around the region in question, I have a lot of friends who currently are and have been. Army, AF, and Marines. There are bad people everywhere and them being military personnel does not change that nor does it empower them in anyway what so ever.
Someone mentioned "What's wrong with soldiers now a days?" I ask, what do you mean? Do you mean taking a 20 year old KID and putting him on the other side of the world away from his comfort zone, family, friends, etc for X amount of years, working non stop and constantly being pushed by his chain of command has adverse side effects that could trigger abnormal actions from an individual that under normal circumstances probably wouldn't occur? If so, then yes I agree. However if you meant to state that american soldiers are garbage and try to exploit, abuse, and outright ignore foreign laws and policy because they have little to no repercussions then I feel you are sadly misinformed.
An Army Private is hardly a professional in his chosen career field. He is an apprentice at best. Young and stupid just like anyone at that age.
I've always wondered why if the Koreans and Japanese hate us so much then why are most military spouses Korean or Japanese? Sometimes it's for the money, or a ticket out of the country. Sounds stupid, but a guarantee you it's truth. Any girl can claim rape even if it was consensual. I've seen it happen multiple times in my career, even stateside. Not saying that's the case here, but certainly it shouldn't be overlooked as plausible.
While I do agree we have to many bases around the world, and while many will be closing their doors soon, don't expect the presence in Korea or Japan to go away. They are fighter bases for a reason. We don't have that many troops and weapons there to flex the American super power. The military is about saving money just like any other business, and while a lot of spending may seem irresponsible and excessive, a lot of it is not as well. A lot of living situations for military members is sub par, especially when it comes to the Army in comparison. You don't see a lot of the spending cuts we do, because you aren't directly effected by them.
Sorry for the rant, but unless you have served it's really irritating when someone bashes any military service and talks about how they know it all and how easily it could be changed for the better. This situation certainly should not be about the military presence or the actions of the smallest margin of its people. Simply those involved.
Japanese hate Americans because they lost a war and were taught, during the war, that Americans were uncultured mongrels that don't deserve much to live.
Koreans hate Americans because Theodore Roosevelt got the Nobel Peace Prize for creating the Japanese occupation of Korea. An occupation that destroyed more than 95% of the trees in Korea. An occupation that changed the language to the roots. An occupation that raped and killed and forcibly enlisted millions. An occupation that taught Koreans that the entire world can tell you to fucking die and not give one fucking shit.
Thank you for your service to our country, may you live happily and serve honorably.
Though, your ignorance of the hatred thrust upon you is not something that is to be forgiven. Blindly wondering WHY someone hates you does nothing to alleviate the hate that glares down on you.
Oh, and Koreans think they're the only cultured people on Earth. Nationalism is super huge, for a reason. I'm ethnically Korean but Nationally American.
On November 06 2011 05:42 BabyCrusher wrote: Active duty USAF here..
While I'll start off with saying yes, it is unfortunate that these events happened and those accused should be punished to the upmost extent of which ever jurisdiction holds custody of the case. However, the hate towards the US military, ESPECIALLY from other Americans kind of worries me.
While I'm not stationed around the region in question, I have a lot of friends who currently are and have been. Army, AF, and Marines. There are bad people everywhere and them being military personnel does not change that nor does it empower them in anyway what so ever.
Someone mentioned "What's wrong with soldiers now a days?" I ask, what do you mean? Do you mean taking a 20 year old KID and putting him on the other side of the world away from his comfort zone, family, friends, etc for X amount of years, working non stop and constantly being pushed by his chain of command has adverse side effects that could trigger abnormal actions from an individual that under normal circumstances probably wouldn't occur? If so, then yes I agree. However if you meant to state that american soldiers are garbage and try to exploit, abuse, and outright ignore foreign laws and policy because they have little to no repercussions then I feel you are sadly misinformed.
An Army Private is hardly a professional in his chosen career field. He is an apprentice at best. Young and stupid just like anyone at that age.
I've always wondered why if the Koreans and Japanese hate us so much then why are most military spouses Korean or Japanese? Sometimes it's for the money, or a ticket out of the country. Sounds stupid, but a guarantee you it's truth. Any girl can claim rape even if it was consensual. I've seen it happen multiple times in my career, even stateside. Not saying that's the case here, but certainly it shouldn't be overlooked as plausible.
While I do agree we have to many bases around the world, and while many will be closing their doors soon, don't expect the presence in Korea or Japan to go away. They are fighter bases for a reason. We don't have that many troops and weapons there to flex the American super power. The military is about saving money just like any other business, and while a lot of spending may seem irresponsible and excessive, a lot of it is not as well. A lot of living situations for military members is sub par, especially when it comes to the Army in comparison. You don't see a lot of the spending cuts we do, because you aren't directly effected by them.
Sorry for the rant, but unless you have served it's really irritating when someone bashes any military service and talks about how they know it all and how easily it could be changed for the better. This situation certainly should not be about the military presence or the actions of the smallest margin of its people. Simply those involved.
Japanese hate Americans because they lost a war and were taught, during the war, that Americans were uncultured mongrels that don't deserve much to live.
Koreans hate Americans because Theodore Roosevelt got the Nobel Peace Prize for creating the Japanese occupation of Korea. An occupation that destroyed more than 95% of the trees in Korea. An occupation that changed the language to the roots. An occupation that raped and killed and forcibly enlisted millions. An occupation that taught Koreans that the entire world can tell you to fucking die and not give one fucking shit.
Thank you for your service to our country, may you live happily and serve honorably.
Though, your ignorance of the hatred thrust upon you is not something that is to be forgiven. Blindly wondering WHY someone hates you does nothing to alleviate the hate that glares down on you.
Oh, and Koreans think they're the only cultured people on Earth. Nationalism is super huge, for a reason. I'm ethnically Korean but Nationally American.
Good thing you are partly American then, where nationalism isnt an issue whatsoever!
On November 05 2011 21:09 Psychobabas wrote: In the USA alone, there is a rape every 2 minutes. Yet, we never hear about these ~700 women every day...
Dont get me wrong, rape is of course awful but I find it wrong how it has seen the public eye only because it was committed by an American soldier. Like it's more important because of the rapist's identify not the actual crime itself. A sad state of affairs for all the victims.
I think it is worse if a soldier does it than if a civilian does it because a soldier is expected to be better, they are expected to protect people. Imagine if an american police officer was working there and did this people would go ape shit too. People view soldiers as protectors and when the protectors are harming people, people tend to get more upset than when some random dude we have no expectations of does because the soldier is going dark side, flipping on his perceived role. He's going from a protector to a villain, that 180 degree turn pisses people off even more because they are going to feel betrayed by it.
On November 06 2011 05:42 BabyCrusher wrote: Active duty USAF here..
While I'll start off with saying yes, it is unfortunate that these events happened and those accused should be punished to the upmost extent of which ever jurisdiction holds custody of the case. However, the hate towards the US military, ESPECIALLY from other Americans kind of worries me.
While I'm not stationed around the region in question, I have a lot of friends who currently are and have been. Army, AF, and Marines. There are bad people everywhere and them being military personnel does not change that nor does it empower them in anyway what so ever.
Someone mentioned "What's wrong with soldiers now a days?" I ask, what do you mean? Do you mean taking a 20 year old KID and putting him on the other side of the world away from his comfort zone, family, friends, etc for X amount of years, working non stop and constantly being pushed by his chain of command has adverse side effects that could trigger abnormal actions from an individual that under normal circumstances probably wouldn't occur? If so, then yes I agree. However if you meant to state that american soldiers are garbage and try to exploit, abuse, and outright ignore foreign laws and policy because they have little to no repercussions then I feel you are sadly misinformed.
An Army Private is hardly a professional in his chosen career field. He is an apprentice at best. Young and stupid just like anyone at that age.
Apologists runnin' wild all up in this bitch. So, soldiers who rape are just young, stupid, confused kids. Awesome. Who needs accountability? Looks like rapists are just misunderstood people!
Your frequent references to age and rank disturb me. Exactly how old does someone have to be, or how "professional" does somehow have to be, before we can condemn them as rapists? 21 years old? 22? Ranked as Sergeants or higher? Fucking bullshit, man.
wow, just wow. hes not stating that its okay, hes saying that (as its known) pressure changes people and what do you think its like for people in the military? plush, no pressure right? I don't think you really have any idea of what really happened and i also dont think its okay for any rape to ever occur.. but really you just come off as an asshole
BabyCrusher obviously lost perspective there for a moment with what he was saying. I'm sure he didn't mean to say that soldiers are in any way or to any extent exempt from judgement because of their hardships. What he was saying until he carelessly ended up saying that, it seems to me, was that the screening and discipline of soldiers doesn't count for that much. This is to refute the argument that not only should soldiers be held to higher standards, but statistically more should be expected of them. Their training may be counteracted by the psychological strain it was meant to prepare them for. Instead of just crucifying him for his poor choice of words, you should realize that there is still a lot of truth to what he said.
American Soldiers should be subject to the local justice system in countries like Korea and Japan that have well established and fair justice systems for any form of criminal case.
This at the very least helps to improve relations with the locals because in my opinion what pisses them off the most is this feeling that US soldiers can do whatever the hell they want and get away with it scott free. If they were subject to trial in a Korean court rather than just an internal military investigation it would improve the public's feelings about it.
On November 06 2011 06:27 Vindicare605 wrote: American Soldiers should be subject to the local justice system in countries like Korea and Japan that have well established and fair justice systems for any form of criminal case.
This at the very least helps to improve relations with the locals because in my opinion what pisses them off the most is this feeling that US soldiers can do whatever the hell they want and get away with it scott free. If they were subject to trial in a Korean court rather than just an internal military investigation it would improve the public's feelings about it.
believe it or not military justice can be pretty harsh, compared to the form of justice they would get in a civilian court (being U.S citizens)
On November 06 2011 05:42 BabyCrusher wrote: Active duty USAF here..
While I'll start off with saying yes, it is unfortunate that these events happened and those accused should be punished to the upmost extent of which ever jurisdiction holds custody of the case. However, the hate towards the US military, ESPECIALLY from other Americans kind of worries me.
While I'm not stationed around the region in question, I have a lot of friends who currently are and have been. Army, AF, and Marines. There are bad people everywhere and them being military personnel does not change that nor does it empower them in anyway what so ever.
Someone mentioned "What's wrong with soldiers now a days?" I ask, what do you mean? Do you mean taking a 20 year old KID and putting him on the other side of the world away from his comfort zone, family, friends, etc for X amount of years, working non stop and constantly being pushed by his chain of command has adverse side effects that could trigger abnormal actions from an individual that under normal circumstances probably wouldn't occur? If so, then yes I agree. However if you meant to state that american soldiers are garbage and try to exploit, abuse, and outright ignore foreign laws and policy because they have little to no repercussions then I feel you are sadly misinformed.
An Army Private is hardly a professional in his chosen career field. He is an apprentice at best. Young and stupid just like anyone at that age.
Apologists runnin' wild all up in this bitch. So, soldiers who rape are just young, stupid, confused kids. Awesome. Who needs accountability? Looks like rapists are just misunderstood people!
Your frequent references to age and rank disturb me. Exactly how old does someone have to be, or how "professional" does somehow have to be, before we can condemn them as rapists? 21 years old? 22? Ranked as Sergeants or higher? Fucking bullshit, man.
Though I don't agree with the tone, I have to somewhat agree with what you're saying here.
It doesn't matter what sort of hardship you're going through, or how tough it is. Rape is rape. The hatred towards such acts is fully justified because it is an enormous crime. The people who commit such acts have absolutely no justification and should be punished with the full force of the law.
However I will say that hatred towards the entire US Military based on small acts may be unjustified. Yet if the US Military is protecting said individuals who commit such crimes, then the hatred is justified. And since I believe the Korean public is angry at the military for the latter reason, I can see why the US Military is getting so much flak. And maybe they indeed should be getting criticized, because South Korea is a first-world country with respectable rules and it shouldn't have certain people who are immune to the law just because they are military personnel from the US.
Sad to hear but honestly those soldiers obviously weren't ordered to rape those girls and they obviously failed to uphold the duty of a US soldier so it shouldn't affect US-Korean government relations. Unfortunately it will because people will blame the US for 2 dumb asses that shouldn't be in the military.
I hope for the victims in all this and that they can recover from the trauma.
On November 05 2011 21:09 Psychobabas wrote: In the USA alone, there is a rape every 2 minutes. Yet, we never hear about these ~700 women every day...
Dont get me wrong, rape is of course awful but I find it wrong how it has seen the public eye only because it was committed by an American soldier. Like it's more important because of the rapist's identify not the actual crime itself. A sad state of affairs for all the victims.
Exactly how I feel. Divorces are happening all over the world yet somehow we only hear about Kim Kardashian's. The people involved and the shit storm it causes is definitely what people are drawn to and not just the nature of the crime.
On November 06 2011 05:53 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
On November 06 2011 05:42 BabyCrusher wrote: Active duty USAF here..
While I'll start off with saying yes, it is unfortunate that these events happened and those accused should be punished to the upmost extent of which ever jurisdiction holds custody of the case. However, the hate towards the US military, ESPECIALLY from other Americans kind of worries me.
While I'm not stationed around the region in question, I have a lot of friends who currently are and have been. Army, AF, and Marines. There are bad people everywhere and them being military personnel does not change that nor does it empower them in anyway what so ever.
Someone mentioned "What's wrong with soldiers now a days?" I ask, what do you mean? Do you mean taking a 20 year old KID and putting him on the other side of the world away from his comfort zone, family, friends, etc for X amount of years, working non stop and constantly being pushed by his chain of command has adverse side effects that could trigger abnormal actions from an individual that under normal circumstances probably wouldn't occur? If so, then yes I agree. However if you meant to state that american soldiers are garbage and try to exploit, abuse, and outright ignore foreign laws and policy because they have little to no repercussions then I feel you are sadly misinformed.
An Army Private is hardly a professional in his chosen career field. He is an apprentice at best. Young and stupid just like anyone at that age.
Apologists runnin' wild all up in this bitch. So, soldiers who rape are just young, stupid, confused kids. Awesome. Who needs accountability? Looks like rapists are just misunderstood people!
Your frequent references to age and rank disturb me. Exactly how old does someone have to be, or how "professional" does somehow have to be, before we can condemn them as rapists? 21 years old? 22? Ranked as Sergeants or higher? Fucking bullshit, man.
wow, just wow. hes not stating that its okay, hes saying that (as its known) pressure changes people and what do you think its like for people in the military? plush, no pressure right? I don't think you really have any idea of what really happened and i also dont think its okay for any rape to ever occur.. but really you just come off as an asshole
By your logic there is a threshold pressure by which I should commit whatever crime I am capable of. But I tell you that there is no such pressure that would drive me to rape a girl.
Circumstances don't make people commit crimes... They may provide the perfect setting, but in the end its still a persons decision to commit a crime. Therefore people should be judged based on their decisions.
On November 05 2011 21:09 Psychobabas wrote: In the USA alone, there is a rape every 2 minutes. Yet, we never hear about these ~700 women every day...
Dont get me wrong, rape is of course awful but I find it wrong how it has seen the public eye only because it was committed by an American soldier. Like it's more important because of the rapist's identify not the actual crime itself. A sad state of affairs for all the victims.
Exactly how I feel. Divorces are happening all over the world yet somehow we only hear about Kim Kardashian's. The people involved and the shit storm it causes is definitely what people are drawn to and not just the nature of the crime.
You said best but I prefer to call them Shit blizzards just like trailer park boys final episode. However really you are right on the ball who cares that she's getting divorced all it is is a distraction from real problems.
On November 06 2011 05:42 BabyCrusher wrote: Active duty USAF here..
While I'll start off with saying yes, it is unfortunate that these events happened and those accused should be punished to the upmost extent of which ever jurisdiction holds custody of the case. However, the hate towards the US military, ESPECIALLY from other Americans kind of worries me.
While I'm not stationed around the region in question, I have a lot of friends who currently are and have been. Army, AF, and Marines. There are bad people everywhere and them being military personnel does not change that nor does it empower them in anyway what so ever.
Someone mentioned "What's wrong with soldiers now a days?" I ask, what do you mean? Do you mean taking a 20 year old KID and putting him on the other side of the world away from his comfort zone, family, friends, etc for X amount of years, working non stop and constantly being pushed by his chain of command has adverse side effects that could trigger abnormal actions from an individual that under normal circumstances probably wouldn't occur? If so, then yes I agree. However if you meant to state that american soldiers are garbage and try to exploit, abuse, and outright ignore foreign laws and policy because they have little to no repercussions then I feel you are sadly misinformed.
An Army Private is hardly a professional in his chosen career field. He is an apprentice at best. Young and stupid just like anyone at that age.
I've always wondered why if the Koreans and Japanese hate us so much then why are most military spouses Korean or Japanese? Sometimes it's for the money, or a ticket out of the country. Sounds stupid, but a guarantee you it's truth. Any girl can claim rape even if it was consensual. I've seen it happen multiple times in my career, even stateside. Not saying that's the case here, but certainly it shouldn't be overlooked as plausible.
While I do agree we have to many bases around the world, and while many will be closing their doors soon, don't expect the presence in Korea or Japan to go away. They are fighter bases for a reason. We don't have that many troops and weapons there to flex the American super power. The military is about saving money just like any other business, and while a lot of spending may seem irresponsible and excessive, a lot of it is not as well. A lot of living situations for military members is sub par, especially when it comes to the Army in comparison. You don't see a lot of the spending cuts we do, because you aren't directly effected by them.
Sorry for the rant, but unless you have served it's really irritating when someone bashes any military service and talks about how they know it all and how easily it could be changed for the better. This situation certainly should not be about the military presence or the actions of the smallest margin of its people. Simply those involved.
Japanese hate Americans because they lost a war and were taught, during the war, that Americans were uncultured mongrels that don't deserve much to live.
Koreans hate Americans because Theodore Roosevelt got the Nobel Peace Prize for creating the Japanese occupation of Korea. An occupation that destroyed more than 95% of the trees in Korea. An occupation that changed the language to the roots. An occupation that raped and killed and forcibly enlisted millions. An occupation that taught Koreans that the entire world can tell you to fucking die and not give one fucking shit.
Thank you for your service to our country, may you live happily and serve honorably.
Though, your ignorance of the hatred thrust upon you is not something that is to be forgiven. Blindly wondering WHY someone hates you does nothing to alleviate the hate that glares down on you.
Oh, and Koreans think they're the only cultured people on Earth. Nationalism is super huge, for a reason. I'm ethnically Korean but Nationally American.
Good thing you are partly American then, where nationalism isnt an issue whatsoever!
It looks like you're being sarcastic, but in case you are not, nationalism and jingoism is overwhelming here, probably more than any other country in the world, and that's even in the state of California, which I'd bet is a lot better than most of the country in this regard (Texas was quite the "culture shock", I'll say that). To be honest, Shatter's last paragraph was a bit confusing. He lives in the US, but seems oblivious to the ridiculous amount of nationalism in the US that he would place Korea as the epitome of nationalism. Perhaps he lives in those East Asian communities/neighborhoods and doesn't see so much of American society proper. I know I am making an assumption, but I've known many, many dozens and dozens of people who grew up in this scenario, so it would come as no surprise.
On November 06 2011 05:42 BabyCrusher wrote: Active duty USAF here..
While I'll start off with saying yes, it is unfortunate that these events happened and those accused should be punished to the upmost extent of which ever jurisdiction holds custody of the case. However, the hate towards the US military, ESPECIALLY from other Americans kind of worries me.
While I'm not stationed around the region in question, I have a lot of friends who currently are and have been. Army, AF, and Marines. There are bad people everywhere and them being military personnel does not change that nor does it empower them in anyway what so ever.
Someone mentioned "What's wrong with soldiers now a days?" I ask, what do you mean? Do you mean taking a 20 year old KID and putting him on the other side of the world away from his comfort zone, family, friends, etc for X amount of years, working non stop and constantly being pushed by his chain of command has adverse side effects that could trigger abnormal actions from an individual that under normal circumstances probably wouldn't occur? If so, then yes I agree. However if you meant to state that american soldiers are garbage and try to exploit, abuse, and outright ignore foreign laws and policy because they have little to no repercussions then I feel you are sadly misinformed.
An Army Private is hardly a professional in his chosen career field. He is an apprentice at best. Young and stupid just like anyone at that age.
I've always wondered why if the Koreans and Japanese hate us so much then why are most military spouses Korean or Japanese? Sometimes it's for the money, or a ticket out of the country. Sounds stupid, but a guarantee you it's truth. Any girl can claim rape even if it was consensual. I've seen it happen multiple times in my career, even stateside. Not saying that's the case here, but certainly it shouldn't be overlooked as plausible.
While I do agree we have to many bases around the world, and while many will be closing their doors soon, don't expect the presence in Korea or Japan to go away. They are fighter bases for a reason. We don't have that many troops and weapons there to flex the American super power. The military is about saving money just like any other business, and while a lot of spending may seem irresponsible and excessive, a lot of it is not as well. A lot of living situations for military members is sub par, especially when it comes to the Army in comparison. You don't see a lot of the spending cuts we do, because you aren't directly effected by them.
Sorry for the rant, but unless you have served it's really irritating when someone bashes any military service and talks about how they know it all and how easily it could be changed for the better. This situation certainly should not be about the military presence or the actions of the smallest margin of its people. Simply those involved.
Japanese hate Americans because they lost a war and were taught, during the war, that Americans were uncultured mongrels that don't deserve much to live.
Koreans hate Americans because Theodore Roosevelt got the Nobel Peace Prize for creating the Japanese occupation of Korea. An occupation that destroyed more than 95% of the trees in Korea. An occupation that changed the language to the roots. An occupation that raped and killed and forcibly enlisted millions. An occupation that taught Koreans that the entire world can tell you to fucking die and not give one fucking shit.
Thank you for your service to our country, may you live happily and serve honorably.
Though, your ignorance of the hatred thrust upon you is not something that is to be forgiven. Blindly wondering WHY someone hates you does nothing to alleviate the hate that glares down on you.
Oh, and Koreans think they're the only cultured people on Earth. Nationalism is super huge, for a reason. I'm ethnically Korean but Nationally American.
Good thing you are partly American then, where nationalism isnt an issue whatsoever!
I was indeed being sarcastic.
The amount of nationalism/patriotism that exists in the U.S is something is really quite scary.
On November 06 2011 05:53 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
On November 06 2011 05:42 BabyCrusher wrote: Active duty USAF here..
While I'll start off with saying yes, it is unfortunate that these events happened and those accused should be punished to the upmost extent of which ever jurisdiction holds custody of the case. However, the hate towards the US military, ESPECIALLY from other Americans kind of worries me.
While I'm not stationed around the region in question, I have a lot of friends who currently are and have been. Army, AF, and Marines. There are bad people everywhere and them being military personnel does not change that nor does it empower them in anyway what so ever.
Someone mentioned "What's wrong with soldiers now a days?" I ask, what do you mean? Do you mean taking a 20 year old KID and putting him on the other side of the world away from his comfort zone, family, friends, etc for X amount of years, working non stop and constantly being pushed by his chain of command has adverse side effects that could trigger abnormal actions from an individual that under normal circumstances probably wouldn't occur? If so, then yes I agree. However if you meant to state that american soldiers are garbage and try to exploit, abuse, and outright ignore foreign laws and policy because they have little to no repercussions then I feel you are sadly misinformed.
An Army Private is hardly a professional in his chosen career field. He is an apprentice at best. Young and stupid just like anyone at that age.
Apologists runnin' wild all up in this bitch. So, soldiers who rape are just young, stupid, confused kids. Awesome. Who needs accountability? Looks like rapists are just misunderstood people!
Your frequent references to age and rank disturb me. Exactly how old does someone have to be, or how "professional" does somehow have to be, before we can condemn them as rapists? 21 years old? 22? Ranked as Sergeants or higher? Fucking bullshit, man.
wow, just wow. hes not stating that its okay, hes saying that (as its known) pressure changes people and what do you think its like for people in the military? plush, no pressure right? I don't think you really have any idea of what really happened and i also dont think its okay for any rape to ever occur.. but really you just come off as an asshole
By your logic there is a threshold pressure by which I should commit whatever crime I am capable of. But I tell you that there is no such pressure that would drive me to rape another girl.
Circumstances don't make people commit crimes... They may provide the perfect setting, but in the end its still a persons decision to commit a crime. Therefore people should be judged based on their decisions.
You dont think the setting would perhaps help make the situation worse? People have desires, all of them including military personnel. For them its worse being in another country for long periods of time and unable to say take care of certain wants. I would say that does increase the likelyhood of said persons of doing something stupid and terrible. Please don't take this as me okaying it.. its a terrible thing to do regardless. I am just pointing out that stress makes people act differently.
You personally might never ever in a million years rape someone even if it was to save the human race from destruction but for many people obviously their threshold is much less. obviously apparent by the rate of rape in the world.
On November 06 2011 05:42 BabyCrusher wrote: Active duty USAF here..
While I'll start off with saying yes, it is unfortunate that these events happened and those accused should be punished to the upmost extent of which ever jurisdiction holds custody of the case. However, the hate towards the US military, ESPECIALLY from other Americans kind of worries me.
While I'm not stationed around the region in question, I have a lot of friends who currently are and have been. Army, AF, and Marines. There are bad people everywhere and them being military personnel does not change that nor does it empower them in anyway what so ever.
Someone mentioned "What's wrong with soldiers now a days?" I ask, what do you mean? Do you mean taking a 20 year old KID and putting him on the other side of the world away from his comfort zone, family, friends, etc for X amount of years, working non stop and constantly being pushed by his chain of command has adverse side effects that could trigger abnormal actions from an individual that under normal circumstances probably wouldn't occur? If so, then yes I agree. However if you meant to state that american soldiers are garbage and try to exploit, abuse, and outright ignore foreign laws and policy because they have little to no repercussions then I feel you are sadly misinformed.
An Army Private is hardly a professional in his chosen career field. He is an apprentice at best. Young and stupid just like anyone at that age.
I've always wondered why if the Koreans and Japanese hate us so much then why are most military spouses Korean or Japanese? Sometimes it's for the money, or a ticket out of the country. Sounds stupid, but a guarantee you it's truth. Any girl can claim rape even if it was consensual. I've seen it happen multiple times in my career, even stateside. Not saying that's the case here, but certainly it shouldn't be overlooked as plausible.
While I do agree we have to many bases around the world, and while many will be closing their doors soon, don't expect the presence in Korea or Japan to go away. They are fighter bases for a reason. We don't have that many troops and weapons there to flex the American super power. The military is about saving money just like any other business, and while a lot of spending may seem irresponsible and excessive, a lot of it is not as well. A lot of living situations for military members is sub par, especially when it comes to the Army in comparison. You don't see a lot of the spending cuts we do, because you aren't directly effected by them.
Sorry for the rant, but unless you have served it's really irritating when someone bashes any military service and talks about how they know it all and how easily it could be changed for the better. This situation certainly should not be about the military presence or the actions of the smallest margin of its people. Simply those involved.
Japanese hate Americans because they lost a war and were taught, during the war, that Americans were uncultured mongrels that don't deserve much to live.
Koreans hate Americans because Theodore Roosevelt got the Nobel Peace Prize for creating the Japanese occupation of Korea. An occupation that destroyed more than 95% of the trees in Korea. An occupation that changed the language to the roots. An occupation that raped and killed and forcibly enlisted millions. An occupation that taught Koreans that the entire world can tell you to fucking die and not give one fucking shit.
Thank you for your service to our country, may you live happily and serve honorably.
Though, your ignorance of the hatred thrust upon you is not something that is to be forgiven. Blindly wondering WHY someone hates you does nothing to alleviate the hate that glares down on you.
Oh, and Koreans think they're the only cultured people on Earth. Nationalism is super huge, for a reason. I'm ethnically Korean but Nationally American.
Good thing you are partly American then, where nationalism isnt an issue whatsoever!
It looks like you're being sarcastic, but in case you are not, nationalism and jingoism is overwhelming here, probably more than any other country in the world, and that's even in the state of California, which I'd bet is a lot better than most of the country in this regard (Texas was quite the "culture shock", I'll say that). To be honest, Shatter's last paragraph was a bit confusing. He lives in the US, but seems oblivious to the ridiculous amount of nationalism in the US that he would place Korea as the epitome of nationalism. Perhaps he lives in those East Asian communities/neighborhoods and doesn't see so much of American society proper. I know I am making an assumption, but I've known many, many dozens and dozens of people who grew up in this scenario, so it would come as no surprise.
>probably more than any other country in the world
Something tells me you have never visited East Asia.
On November 06 2011 05:42 BabyCrusher wrote: Active duty USAF here..
While I'll start off with saying yes, it is unfortunate that these events happened and those accused should be punished to the upmost extent of which ever jurisdiction holds custody of the case. However, the hate towards the US military, ESPECIALLY from other Americans kind of worries me.
While I'm not stationed around the region in question, I have a lot of friends who currently are and have been. Army, AF, and Marines. There are bad people everywhere and them being military personnel does not change that nor does it empower them in anyway what so ever.
Someone mentioned "What's wrong with soldiers now a days?" I ask, what do you mean? Do you mean taking a 20 year old KID and putting him on the other side of the world away from his comfort zone, family, friends, etc for X amount of years, working non stop and constantly being pushed by his chain of command has adverse side effects that could trigger abnormal actions from an individual that under normal circumstances probably wouldn't occur? If so, then yes I agree. However if you meant to state that american soldiers are garbage and try to exploit, abuse, and outright ignore foreign laws and policy because they have little to no repercussions then I feel you are sadly misinformed.
An Army Private is hardly a professional in his chosen career field. He is an apprentice at best. Young and stupid just like anyone at that age.
I've always wondered why if the Koreans and Japanese hate us so much then why are most military spouses Korean or Japanese? Sometimes it's for the money, or a ticket out of the country. Sounds stupid, but a guarantee you it's truth. Any girl can claim rape even if it was consensual. I've seen it happen multiple times in my career, even stateside. Not saying that's the case here, but certainly it shouldn't be overlooked as plausible.
While I do agree we have to many bases around the world, and while many will be closing their doors soon, don't expect the presence in Korea or Japan to go away. They are fighter bases for a reason. We don't have that many troops and weapons there to flex the American super power. The military is about saving money just like any other business, and while a lot of spending may seem irresponsible and excessive, a lot of it is not as well. A lot of living situations for military members is sub par, especially when it comes to the Army in comparison. You don't see a lot of the spending cuts we do, because you aren't directly effected by them.
Sorry for the rant, but unless you have served it's really irritating when someone bashes any military service and talks about how they know it all and how easily it could be changed for the better. This situation certainly should not be about the military presence or the actions of the smallest margin of its people. Simply those involved.
Japanese hate Americans because they lost a war and were taught, during the war, that Americans were uncultured mongrels that don't deserve much to live.
Koreans hate Americans because Theodore Roosevelt got the Nobel Peace Prize for creating the Japanese occupation of Korea. An occupation that destroyed more than 95% of the trees in Korea. An occupation that changed the language to the roots. An occupation that raped and killed and forcibly enlisted millions. An occupation that taught Koreans that the entire world can tell you to fucking die and not give one fucking shit.
Thank you for your service to our country, may you live happily and serve honorably.
Though, your ignorance of the hatred thrust upon you is not something that is to be forgiven. Blindly wondering WHY someone hates you does nothing to alleviate the hate that glares down on you.
Oh, and Koreans think they're the only cultured people on Earth. Nationalism is super huge, for a reason. I'm ethnically Korean but Nationally American.
Good thing you are partly American then, where nationalism isnt an issue whatsoever!
It looks like you're being sarcastic, but in case you are not, nationalism and jingoism is overwhelming here, probably more than any other country in the world, and that's even in the state of California, which I'd bet is a lot better than most of the country in this regard (Texas was quite the "culture shock", I'll say that). To be honest, Shatter's last paragraph was a bit confusing. He lives in the US, but seems oblivious to the ridiculous amount of nationalism in the US that he would place Korea as the epitome of nationalism. Perhaps he lives in those East Asian communities/neighborhoods and doesn't see so much of American society proper. I know I am making an assumption, but I've known many, many dozens and dozens of people who grew up in this scenario, so it would come as no surprise.
>probably more than any other country in the world
Something tells me you have never visited East Asia.
From what I have heard it is the "worst" and most rowdy US soldiers that get sent to Korea, is there any truth in this or just something someone made up? Like there are many fights between korean men and soldiers since korean men are well trained army men as well and so, so the people are not all Kpop and Starcraft as it might seem to us.
Additionally don't foreigners in Korea have a bad reputation overall as most of the contact in Korea and (white/black) foreigners is with soldiers stationed there (also I hear Koreans are not that friendly always either often, especially older people). Again I have no clue about this but it's what I've heard from friends who have visited and lived there.
its only 2 soldiers, out of an equivilent amount of normal civilians, there are probably more than 2 that are raping people. Unless there are many many more cases of this, i see no reason for people to be mad about this, except for of course the fact that there are 2 rapists.
On November 06 2011 05:42 BabyCrusher wrote: Active duty USAF here..
While I'll start off with saying yes, it is unfortunate that these events happened and those accused should be punished to the upmost extent of which ever jurisdiction holds custody of the case. However, the hate towards the US military, ESPECIALLY from other Americans kind of worries me.
While I'm not stationed around the region in question, I have a lot of friends who currently are and have been. Army, AF, and Marines. There are bad people everywhere and them being military personnel does not change that nor does it empower them in anyway what so ever.
Someone mentioned "What's wrong with soldiers now a days?" I ask, what do you mean? Do you mean taking a 20 year old KID and putting him on the other side of the world away from his comfort zone, family, friends, etc for X amount of years, working non stop and constantly being pushed by his chain of command has adverse side effects that could trigger abnormal actions from an individual that under normal circumstances probably wouldn't occur? If so, then yes I agree. However if you meant to state that american soldiers are garbage and try to exploit, abuse, and outright ignore foreign laws and policy because they have little to no repercussions then I feel you are sadly misinformed.
An Army Private is hardly a professional in his chosen career field. He is an apprentice at best. Young and stupid just like anyone at that age.
I've always wondered why if the Koreans and Japanese hate us so much then why are most military spouses Korean or Japanese? Sometimes it's for the money, or a ticket out of the country. Sounds stupid, but a guarantee you it's truth. Any girl can claim rape even if it was consensual. I've seen it happen multiple times in my career, even stateside. Not saying that's the case here, but certainly it shouldn't be overlooked as plausible.
While I do agree we have to many bases around the world, and while many will be closing their doors soon, don't expect the presence in Korea or Japan to go away. They are fighter bases for a reason. We don't have that many troops and weapons there to flex the American super power. The military is about saving money just like any other business, and while a lot of spending may seem irresponsible and excessive, a lot of it is not as well. A lot of living situations for military members is sub par, especially when it comes to the Army in comparison. You don't see a lot of the spending cuts we do, because you aren't directly effected by them.
Sorry for the rant, but unless you have served it's really irritating when someone bashes any military service and talks about how they know it all and how easily it could be changed for the better. This situation certainly should not be about the military presence or the actions of the smallest margin of its people. Simply those involved.
Japanese hate Americans because they lost a war and were taught, during the war, that Americans were uncultured mongrels that don't deserve much to live.
Koreans hate Americans because Theodore Roosevelt got the Nobel Peace Prize for creating the Japanese occupation of Korea. An occupation that destroyed more than 95% of the trees in Korea. An occupation that changed the language to the roots. An occupation that raped and killed and forcibly enlisted millions. An occupation that taught Koreans that the entire world can tell you to fucking die and not give one fucking shit.
Thank you for your service to our country, may you live happily and serve honorably.
Though, your ignorance of the hatred thrust upon you is not something that is to be forgiven. Blindly wondering WHY someone hates you does nothing to alleviate the hate that glares down on you.
Oh, and Koreans think they're the only cultured people on Earth. Nationalism is super huge, for a reason. I'm ethnically Korean but Nationally American.
The problem with South Korea today is that the hard leftist National Teachers' Union in Korea teaches a radicalized leftist version of history to students, which is why so many younger koreans hate the US (for all the wrong reasons). If you are referring to the Taft-Katsura memorandum and think that it was a "treaty" where the US allowed Japan to colonize Korea, you are wrong. There never was an agreement between the two people, if you bother to even read into the subject. More importantly, for anti-American koreans to blame america for something that happened 100 years ago is like poland demanding 100 billion euros from france for not helping them when germany invaded poland in WWII.
One thing that I want to ask other koreans is, why do koreans, especially the anti-American, leftist, socialist koreans to blame everyone else for the bad things that happened in our country? The CORE reason why Korea got fucked by japan is because KOREA had terrible leadership, corrupt society, and total lack of interest of what was happening around the world at that time. If korea had pursued its own "meiji restoration" and saw the importance of modernization, do you think japan could have just walked into korea like they did in 1905? Korea's colonization in 1910 is 90% KOREANS' fault. You can pin the blame on Japan (I certainly do, and they aren't even sorry for what they did) for the horrible stuff they did to Korea, but Korea is the one that invited colonization during a time of expansionism.
When you start blaming only the faults of others and not your own, your denial of your own problems is just going to cause you to repeat history again.
On November 06 2011 06:39 R3demption wrote: Sad to hear but honestly those soldiers obviously weren't ordered to rape those girls and they obviously failed to uphold the duty of a US soldier so it shouldn't affect US-Korean government relations. Unfortunately it will because people will blame the US for 2 dumb asses that shouldn't be in the military.
I hope for the victims in all this and that they can recover from the trauma.
This Quote is pretty much perfect. If there was a way to win a thread, this quote would do it.
On November 06 2011 06:27 Vindicare605 wrote: American Soldiers should be subject to the local justice system in countries like Korea and Japan that have well established and fair justice systems for any form of criminal case.
This at the very least helps to improve relations with the locals because in my opinion what pisses them off the most is this feeling that US soldiers can do whatever the hell they want and get away with it scott free. If they were subject to trial in a Korean court rather than just an internal military investigation it would improve the public's feelings about it.
believe it or not military justice can be pretty harsh, compared to the form of justice they would get in a civilian court (being U.S citizens)
It isn't about what sort of punishment they ACTUALLY receive, it's about demonstrating to the people of Korea our good will. If our soldiers violate their laws and they can prove it they should be allowed to prosecute them. It helps make the US look more like an ally and less like an occupation force when our GIs are sent to their criminal justice system for criminal misconduct.
On November 06 2011 05:53 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
On November 06 2011 05:42 BabyCrusher wrote: Active duty USAF here..
While I'll start off with saying yes, it is unfortunate that these events happened and those accused should be punished to the upmost extent of which ever jurisdiction holds custody of the case. However, the hate towards the US military, ESPECIALLY from other Americans kind of worries me.
While I'm not stationed around the region in question, I have a lot of friends who currently are and have been. Army, AF, and Marines. There are bad people everywhere and them being military personnel does not change that nor does it empower them in anyway what so ever.
Someone mentioned "What's wrong with soldiers now a days?" I ask, what do you mean? Do you mean taking a 20 year old KID and putting him on the other side of the world away from his comfort zone, family, friends, etc for X amount of years, working non stop and constantly being pushed by his chain of command has adverse side effects that could trigger abnormal actions from an individual that under normal circumstances probably wouldn't occur? If so, then yes I agree. However if you meant to state that american soldiers are garbage and try to exploit, abuse, and outright ignore foreign laws and policy because they have little to no repercussions then I feel you are sadly misinformed.
An Army Private is hardly a professional in his chosen career field. He is an apprentice at best. Young and stupid just like anyone at that age.
Apologists runnin' wild all up in this bitch. So, soldiers who rape are just young, stupid, confused kids. Awesome. Who needs accountability? Looks like rapists are just misunderstood people!
Your frequent references to age and rank disturb me. Exactly how old does someone have to be, or how "professional" does somehow have to be, before we can condemn them as rapists? 21 years old? 22? Ranked as Sergeants or higher? Fucking bullshit, man.
wow, just wow. hes not stating that its okay, hes saying that (as its known) pressure changes people and what do you think its like for people in the military? plush, no pressure right? I don't think you really have any idea of what really happened and i also dont think its okay for any rape to ever occur.. but really you just come off as an asshole
By your logic there is a threshold pressure by which I should commit whatever crime I am capable of. But I tell you that there is no such pressure that would drive me to rape a girl.
Circumstances don't make people commit crimes... They may provide the perfect setting, but in the end its still a persons decision to commit a crime. Therefore people should be judged based on their decisions.
There is certainly a threshold for rape and other crimes. The only difference between people is where it is, what it takes for us to commit, for instance, rape. For most of us, something like a war situation and some peer pressure is more than enough. I doubt you are any different because you just like to play tough and righteous on the internet, but I don't really know. Just because circumstances "make" people commit crimes doesn't mean we can't judge them for it, either.
On November 05 2011 21:09 Psychobabas wrote: In the USA alone, there is a rape every 2 minutes. Yet, we never hear about these ~700 women every day...
Dont get me wrong, rape is of course awful but I find it wrong how it has seen the public eye only because it was committed by an American soldier. Like it's more important because of the rapist's identify not the actual crime itself. A sad state of affairs for all the victims.
Exactly how I feel. Divorces are happening all over the world yet somehow we only hear about Kim Kardashian's. The people involved and the shit storm it causes is definitely what people are drawn to and not just the nature of the crime.
You wanna hear about every divorce that is happening or what?
On November 06 2011 19:57 DeadBull wrote: there are 28,500 troops in korea ?
wtf usa ???
To help protect south korea in the case of an invasion by North Korea. So the US can help maintain border relations and protect trade between the two countries. Samsung, LG, and many other Korean companies are very profitable here. The troops act as a deterrent to potential North Korean actions.
On November 06 2011 19:57 DeadBull wrote: there are 28,500 troops in korea ?
wtf usa ???
In Germany there are 52000 US troops at the moment. Those 28500 troops in Korea do not have to be all combat units for a potential attack of NK. It makes sense to have facilities like air bases, harbors, hospitals, etc. around the world, and for security reasons, it cannot all be run by civilians.
For an idea of how much people you need to keep such facilities running, you can perhaps compare the tasks to commercial stuff. The Wikipedia entry about the (civilian) airport in Frankfurt says one airplane produces 300 jobs in the area, and overall, there are 75000 jobs tied to the airport in Frankfurt.
On November 06 2011 19:57 DeadBull wrote: there are 28,500 troops in korea ?
wtf usa ???
Yeah... It's not like they're combat troops; they're on standby. The whole idea of having a strong military is to maintain power projection capabilities. That means having at least some presence in different parts of the world (or having allied presence at the very least), which is done by having airbases in Korea and Europe and carriers around the Persian Gulf.
Having a base with 100s of jets and 30,000 soldiers near a hostile state is arguably the most effective way to negotiate. Carrier diplomacy for example has historically been practiced by most NATO states. If a country is acting belligerent, 4 aircraft carriers park off the coast while NATO leaders go to a negotiating table.
On November 06 2011 05:42 BabyCrusher wrote: Active duty USAF here..
While I'll start off with saying yes, it is unfortunate that these events happened and those accused should be punished to the upmost extent of which ever jurisdiction holds custody of the case. However, the hate towards the US military, ESPECIALLY from other Americans kind of worries me.
While I'm not stationed around the region in question, I have a lot of friends who currently are and have been. Army, AF, and Marines. There are bad people everywhere and them being military personnel does not change that nor does it empower them in anyway what so ever.
Someone mentioned "What's wrong with soldiers now a days?" I ask, what do you mean? Do you mean taking a 20 year old KID and putting him on the other side of the world away from his comfort zone, family, friends, etc for X amount of years, working non stop and constantly being pushed by his chain of command has adverse side effects that could trigger abnormal actions from an individual that under normal circumstances probably wouldn't occur? If so, then yes I agree. However if you meant to state that american soldiers are garbage and try to exploit, abuse, and outright ignore foreign laws and policy because they have little to no repercussions then I feel you are sadly misinformed.
An Army Private is hardly a professional in his chosen career field. He is an apprentice at best. Young and stupid just like anyone at that age.
I've always wondered why if the Koreans and Japanese hate us so much then why are most military spouses Korean or Japanese? Sometimes it's for the money, or a ticket out of the country. Sounds stupid, but a guarantee you it's truth. Any girl can claim rape even if it was consensual. I've seen it happen multiple times in my career, even stateside. Not saying that's the case here, but certainly it shouldn't be overlooked as plausible.
While I do agree we have to many bases around the world, and while many will be closing their doors soon, don't expect the presence in Korea or Japan to go away. They are fighter bases for a reason. We don't have that many troops and weapons there to flex the American super power. The military is about saving money just like any other business, and while a lot of spending may seem irresponsible and excessive, a lot of it is not as well. A lot of living situations for military members is sub par, especially when it comes to the Army in comparison. You don't see a lot of the spending cuts we do, because you aren't directly effected by them.
Sorry for the rant, but unless you have served it's really irritating when someone bashes any military service and talks about how they know it all and how easily it could be changed for the better. This situation certainly should not be about the military presence or the actions of the smallest margin of its people. Simply those involved.
Japanese hate Americans because they lost a war and were taught, during the war, that Americans were uncultured mongrels that don't deserve much to live.
Koreans hate Americans because Theodore Roosevelt got the Nobel Peace Prize for creating the Japanese occupation of Korea. An occupation that destroyed more than 95% of the trees in Korea. An occupation that changed the language to the roots. An occupation that raped and killed and forcibly enlisted millions. An occupation that taught Koreans that the entire world can tell you to fucking die and not give one fucking shit.
Thank you for your service to our country, may you live happily and serve honorably.
Though, your ignorance of the hatred thrust upon you is not something that is to be forgiven. Blindly wondering WHY someone hates you does nothing to alleviate the hate that glares down on you.
Oh, and Koreans think they're the only cultured people on Earth. Nationalism is super huge, for a reason. I'm ethnically Korean but Nationally American.
You seem to be emotionally invested into this argument, so you should probably get your facts straight. The alleged Taft-Katsura Agreement, which is nothing more than speculation, was between Secretary of War William Taft and the Prime Minister of Japan, Katsura Taro. Note neither the president of the United States, Theodore Roosevelt, nor the emperor of Japan, Taisho, were present during the negotiations. Roosevelt was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for facilitating the Treaty of Portsmouth, which effectively ended the Russo-Japanese War.
During the meeting between Taft and Katsura, the prime minster deliberately articulated the importance of Japanese occupation of Korea. Katsura believed Korea was a direct cause of the Russo-Japanese War, as it had entered into agreements with other nations which agitated Japanese relations and forced them into militarized resolution.
Katsura wished to impose a Japanese protectorate over Korea, as to oversee its international relations and prevent it from entering into imprudent agreements. Taft allegedly agreed a Japanese protectorate would help stabilize the region, but this is nothing more than assumption and speculation derived primarily from Korean historians. Taft, the Secretary of War, had no legitimacy or authorization to enter into international agreements with foreign powers.
Thanks God, TL spoils me so much. Friggin 2 minute polite answer with source and everything. Love you guys ♥ TL is like the lone good guy of internet forums ^^
On November 06 2011 19:57 DeadBull wrote: there are 28,500 troops in korea ?
wtf usa ???
Yeah... It's not like they're combat troops; they're on standby. The whole idea of having a strong military is to maintain power projection capabilities. That means having at least some presence in different parts of the world (or having allied presence at the very least), which is done by having airbases in Korea and Europe and carriers around the Persian Gulf.
Having a base with 100s of jets and 30,000 soldiers near a hostile state is arguably the most effective way to negotiate. Carrier diplomacy for example has historically been practiced by most NATO states. If a country is acting belligerent, 4 aircraft carriers park off the coast while NATO leaders go to a negotiating table.
No they really are combat troops lol. Mostly army and then fighter jets, and a little navy.
EPT
. No offense taken.![[image loading]](http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z443/joeshmoe762/neocon.png)
![[image loading]](http://fastcache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/9/2008/02/xkcdwrongoninternet.jpg)
