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On September 14 2011 20:07 Traeon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 19:59 prOxi.swAMi wrote:
Is this thing scalable? By scalable I am actually more interested in the downscaling of it. i.e. if it's fo rela, will I be able to pour a quarter cup of water into my phone and let it run on its own for a year or what? It doesn't consume water. It consumes nickel and hydrogen. The water is used as heat exchanging medium. Rossi is planning to make "household sized" units that will produce hot water and electricity. The current goal is to deliver the 1 MW heating plant to his customer though.
Yes but assuming 1 to 4 ratio is real then hydrogen extraction from water becomes cheap so i don't think we should consider anything else but nickel as "fuel".
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I'm sorry I haven't read up as much yet but what is the 1 to 4 ratio for? Heatpumps can easily be 1 to 4 with the COP definition for instance (input electricity to output heat).
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On September 14 2011 20:16 nihlon wrote:
I'm sorry I haven't read up as much yet but what is the 1 to 4 ratio for? Heatpumps can easily be 1 to 4 with the COP definition for instance (input electricity to output heat).
Electricity to heat is said to be 1 to 16 or something like that. 1 to 4 is electricity to electricity (produced from steam).
At least thats what i remember reading about this a few months ago.
This is what i imagine people in the energy industry look like when they hear about it on the phone:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Ckm2V.gif)
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Some of the ideas like: "if it was real he was already dead" are so ridiculous. Don't you know that if a technology like this ever takes off, it would be the energy companies that would profit most from it? Energy is valuable, and if it becomes cheaper then that just opens the doors to many more ways to use it. Furthermore, you still need oil/gas for various things. And most importantly, how can they know if it's real? They probably work off of the same information we do, and just keep an eye on it to ensure that if it ends up as real they'll be in a position to harness it.
I doubt it's real though, but who knows. At the very least I hope that all investors and such ensure that their money will be refunded if it ends up as a fraud.
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On September 14 2011 20:07 Traeon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 19:59 prOxi.swAMi wrote:
Is this thing scalable? By scalable I am actually more interested in the downscaling of it. i.e. if it's fo rela, will I be able to pour a quarter cup of water into my phone and let it run on its own for a year or what? It doesn't consume water. It consumes nickel and hydrogen. The water is used as heat exchanging medium. Rossi is planning to make "household sized" units that will produce hot water and electricity. The current goal is to deliver the 1 MW heating plant to his customer though.
oh ok, thanks
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On September 14 2011 20:22 Grumbels wrote:
And most importantly, how can they know if it's real? They probably work off of the same information we do, and just keep an eye on it to ensure that if it ends up as real they'll be in a position to harness it.
Any company worth it's salt hired private investigators to know EVERYTHING about this guy/project. Thinking they work off the same info as we do is absurd.
Shell wouldn't profit anything if this actually works. On the opposite petrol demand would reduce by 90% and so would their profit.
Assassination is pretty far fetched, i'll give you that, but not impossible.
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On September 14 2011 20:16 nihlon wrote:
I'm sorry I haven't read up as much yet but what is the 1 to 4 ratio for? Heatpumps can easily be 1 to 4 with the COP definition for instance (input electricity to output heat).
The ratio varied in tests and between e-cat models, but it's been more around 1:15 input electricity to output heat. Rossi says he is intentionally keeping it low for safety reasons and that much more is possible.
At least according to people who actually took the measurements. The armchair skeptics of course say it doesn't produce any excess energy 
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On September 14 2011 20:40 Traeon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 20:16 nihlon wrote:
I'm sorry I haven't read up as much yet but what is the 1 to 4 ratio for? Heatpumps can easily be 1 to 4 with the COP definition for instance (input electricity to output heat). The ratio varied in tests and between e-cat models, but it's been more around 1:15 input electricity to output heat. Rossi says he is intentionally keeping it low for safety reasons and that much more is possible. At least according to people who actually took the measurements. The armchair skeptics of course say it doesn't produce any excess energy
The armchair skeptics?
It is only natural to be skeptical as long as there is no independent verification and the inner workings of the apparatus are not made public. There is no evidence brought forth yet that can be classified as scientific.
I wouldn't get my hopes up yet. There are lots of charlatans in modern physics and they are harder and harder to identify.
Energy production by elemental transmutation of nickel to copper at low energies might even seem possible from a theoretical point of view. But I will remain very sceptical until there is actual evidence.
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On September 14 2011 20:40 Nizaris wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 20:22 Grumbels wrote:
And most importantly, how can they know if it's real? They probably work off of the same information we do, and just keep an eye on it to ensure that if it ends up as real they'll be in a position to harness it.
Any company worth it's salt hired private investigators to know EVERYTHING about this guy/project. Thinking they work off the same info as we do is absurd. Shell wouldn't profit anything if this actually works. On the opposite petrol demand would reduce by 90% and so would their profit. Assassination is pretty far fetched, i'll give you that, but not impossible.
Who cares about oil companies? The market boom if such a technology would revolutionize energy production would be enourmous, the profits of the energy companies are insignificant compared to this.
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On September 14 2011 22:01 Maenander wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 20:40 Nizaris wrote:On September 14 2011 20:22 Grumbels wrote:
And most importantly, how can they know if it's real? They probably work off of the same information we do, and just keep an eye on it to ensure that if it ends up as real they'll be in a position to harness it.
Any company worth it's salt hired private investigators to know EVERYTHING about this guy/project. Thinking they work off the same info as we do is absurd. Shell wouldn't profit anything if this actually works. On the opposite petrol demand would reduce by 90% and so would their profit. Assassination is pretty far fetched, i'll give you that, but not impossible. Who cares about oil companies? The market boom if such a technology would revolutionize energy production would be enourmous, the profits of the energy companies are insignificant compared to this.
Well, Oil companies, and people profiting of the money of Oil companies.
That's quite a huge cartel if you want my opinion. For the regular citizen like you and me, it means shit. But regular citizen like you and me don't have the authority to force a replacement in energy production.
Rossi's case has been studied for several monthes now, I'm surprised we didn't see an "official" debunk or validation of his experiment.. What's taking so much time ?
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On September 14 2011 21:56 Maenander wrote:
The armchair skeptics?
It is only natural to be skeptical as long as there is no independent verification and the inner workings of the apparatus are not made public. There is no evidence brought forth yet that can be classified as scientific.
With armchair skeptics I mean people who think they can make a conclusive (negative) judgment on whether or not this is real without having enough data. A scientifically correct attitude is to say "wait and see" for real testing. Unfortunately there are too many who dismiss this without ever giving it a real chance.
Since Rossi seems to be on track with the delivery of his 1 MW plant as seen by the video, we can hopefully expect some proper testing soon 
If it turns out to be real, the scientific community will have to take a long, hard look at themselves because they buried cold fusion 22 years ago and many refuse to accept that the experiments similar to the original ones by Pons and Fleischman are being replicated and that there is some real phenomenon going on.
If you're interested in this, take a look at the US Department of Intelligence report in the original post on who has been working on what.
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On September 14 2011 22:32 Traeon wrote:
With armchair skeptics I mean people who think they can make a conclusive (negative) judgment on whether or not this is real without having enough data. A scientifically correct attitude is to say "wait and see" for real testing. Unfortunately there are too many who dismiss this without ever giving it a real chance.
The reason that this is being dismissed without giving it a real chance... As are the rest of the snake oil salesmen in the cold fusion business, is that, as usual, there is a mountain of things wrong with the inventor's proprietary analysis of their work. That, and, as is usual in claims of cold fusion, independent experimenters inevitably fail to replicate it.
Anyone asking for 10 million dollars up front, before he tells you how to replicate his experiment, is running a scam. Patent the damn thing if you don't want anyone stealing it.
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On September 14 2011 22:36 Nightfall.589 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 22:32 Traeon wrote:
With armchair skeptics I mean people who think they can make a conclusive (negative) judgment on whether or not this is real without having enough data. A scientifically correct attitude is to say "wait and see" for real testing. Unfortunately there are too many who dismiss this without ever giving it a real chance. The reason that this is being dismissed without giving it a real chance... As are the rest of the snake oil salesmen in the cold fusion business, is that, as usual, there is a mountain of things wrong with the inventor's proprietary analysis of their work. That, and, as is usual in claims of cold fusion, independent experimenters inevitably fail to replicate it. Anyone asking for 10 million dollars up front, before he tells you how to replicate his experiment, is running a scam. Patent the damn thing if you don't want anyone stealing it.
Well, if the discovery is real I'd be just as careful. A patent doesn't protect you from everything and depending on how the machince works it might be incredible hard to create a viable one and it's a lot of hassle.
I'm not saying we should all believe everything they say, but just because there is a lot of secrets around it doesn't mean it's a scam. It's a bit suspicious though, I give you that.
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On September 14 2011 22:36 Nightfall.589 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 22:32 Traeon wrote:
With armchair skeptics I mean people who think they can make a conclusive (negative) judgment on whether or not this is real without having enough data. A scientifically correct attitude is to say "wait and see" for real testing. Unfortunately there are too many who dismiss this without ever giving it a real chance. The reason that this is being dismissed without giving it a real chance... As are the rest of the snake oil salesmen in the cold fusion business, is that, as usual, there is a mountain of things wrong with the inventor's proprietary analysis of their work. That, and, as is usual in claims of cold fusion, independent experimenters inevitably fail to replicate it. Anyone asking for 10 million dollars up front, before he tells you how to replicate his experiment, is running a scam. Patent the damn thing if you don't want anyone stealing it.
IIRC he has patents secured in pretty much every country. And has conducted black box demonstrations where top physicists say only cold fusion could create such an energy output for the size of the box.
I'm absolutely no expert, just been following this story, cause its so damn cool!
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Now that I read the wikipedia page, I laugh out loudly at this. The guy has antecedents. And yet people expect something from this!
The "Rossi Energy Amplifier" is not the first invention made by Andrea Rossi. During the 1970ies and 1980ies, he tried to produce hydrocarbons from waste to no avail. This resulted in several law suits and criminal cases with prison sentences against the "Sheik of Brianza" (Sceicco della Brianza, sheik because he claimed to produce oil from industrial waste. Brianza is a region north of Milan). The law suits were also known as "Petroldragon affair", since Rossi's company was named "Petroldragon". Italian Wikipedia has an article on the affair: Petroldragon. Rossi was convicted because he did not dispose of large amounts (58,000 tons) of toxic waste in accordance with regulations, and for trafficking waste materials. According to an article in Italian newspaper "Corriere della Sera" of April 6, 1995, Rossi and one Michele Pizzato were arrested twice.[71] As a member of a "gang" and "criminal organisation" he is said to have smuggled two tons of gold in a money laundering operation. Newspaper articles from that time (in Italian):
Source: http://www.esowatch.com/en/index.php?title=Focardi-Rossi_Energy-Catalyzer#Journal_of_Nuclear_Physics
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On September 14 2011 22:36 Nightfall.589 wrote:
The reason that this is being dismissed without giving it a real chance... As are the rest of the snake oil salesmen in the cold fusion business, is that, as usual, there is a mountain of things wrong with the inventor's proprietary analysis of their work. That, and, as is usual in claims of cold fusion, independent experimenters inevitably fail to replicate it.
This report here lists many research teams who are working on this tech and obtaining reproducible results:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:2009DIA-08-0911-003.pdf&page=1
Yet this is barely getting the attention it deserves, instead these researchers are being called "snake oil salesmen" by some.
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On September 14 2011 22:53 arbiter_md wrote:Now that I read the wikipedia page, I laugh out loudly at this. The guy has antecedents. And yet people expect something from this! The "Rossi Energy Amplifier" is not the first invention made by Andrea Rossi. During the 1970ies and 1980ies, he tried to produce hydrocarbons from waste to no avail. This resulted in several law suits and criminal cases with prison sentences against the "Sheik of Brianza" (Sceicco della Brianza, sheik because he claimed to produce oil from industrial waste. Brianza is a region north of Milan). The law suits were also known as "Petroldragon affair", since Rossi's company was named "Petroldragon". Italian Wikipedia has an article on the affair: Petroldragon. Rossi was convicted because he did not dispose of large amounts (58,000 tons) of toxic waste in accordance with regulations, and for trafficking waste materials. According to an article in Italian newspaper "Corriere della Sera" of April 6, 1995, Rossi and one Michele Pizzato were arrested twice.[71] As a member of a "gang" and "criminal organisation" he is said to have smuggled two tons of gold in a money laundering operation. Newspaper articles from that time (in Italian): Source: http://www.esowatch.com/en/index.php?title=Focardi-Rossi_Energy-Catalyzer#Journal_of_Nuclear_Physics
I've seen the antecedent in a documentary some time ago. As you can see this happened 30 years ago, and Rossi really seemed to have taken lessons out of this big mistakes he did in the past. This is the reason why he worked in silence for the last decades.
I know that this past events are screwing his credibility and I agree that it also helped to bring the doubt for me. But I can't dismiss that a man can do some mistakes while they are young and then learn from their mistakes. I give this guy a second chance because anyone deserves that.
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On September 14 2011 22:53 arbiter_md wrote:Now that I read the wikipedia page, I laugh out loudly at this. The guy has antecedents. And yet people expect something from this! The "Rossi Energy Amplifier" is not the first invention made by Andrea Rossi. During the 1970ies and 1980ies, he tried to produce hydrocarbons from waste to no avail. This resulted in several law suits and criminal cases with prison sentences against the "Sheik of Brianza" (Sceicco della Brianza, sheik because he claimed to produce oil from industrial waste. Brianza is a region north of Milan). The law suits were also known as "Petroldragon affair", since Rossi's company was named "Petroldragon". Italian Wikipedia has an article on the affair: Petroldragon. Rossi was convicted because he did not dispose of large amounts (58,000 tons) of toxic waste in accordance with regulations, and for trafficking waste materials. According to an article in Italian newspaper "Corriere della Sera" of April 6, 1995, Rossi and one Michele Pizzato were arrested twice.[71] As a member of a "gang" and "criminal organisation" he is said to have smuggled two tons of gold in a money laundering operation. Newspaper articles from that time (in Italian): Source: http://www.esowatch.com/en/index.php?title=Focardi-Rossi_Energy-Catalyzer#Journal_of_Nuclear_Physics
The previous encounter with the law is not due to a "scam" but a failing bussiness plan where he couldn't afford to get rid of waste in accordance with the law.
While skeptical, this whole thing is due to unfold in a little over 1 month and he hasn't made a dime yet since he agreed to only receive the money for his 1MW "plant" (container) after its up and running.
In my opinion 1 month is short enough time for everyone to stop arguing about this being true or not.
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On September 14 2011 20:22 Grumbels wrote:
Some of the ideas like: "if it was real he was already dead" are so ridiculous. Don't you know that if a technology like this ever takes off, it would be the energy companies that would profit most from it? Energy is valuable, and if it becomes cheaper then that just opens the doors to many more ways to use it. Furthermore, you still need oil/gas for various things. And most importantly, how can they know if it's real? They probably work off of the same information we do, and just keep an eye on it to ensure that if it ends up as real they'll be in a position to harness it.
I doubt it's real though, but who knows. At the very least I hope that all investors and such ensure that their money will be refunded if it ends up as a fraud.
You tried to invalidate a comment that you perceived to be stupid with something that, imo, is stupid.
The claim: "if it was real he'd be dead".
Your counter-claim to refute this: "It'd be energy companies that would profit most from it."
Some may profit hugely, others will collapse, which invalidates your counter argument entirely.
Another counter-claim you made: "You still need oil and gas for various things."
This is true but you said it in an attempt to invalidate the claim you quoted yet it does no such thing. You'd need much less if Rossi's claims are true, which means a huge deterioration in profits of the major oil companies.
The real reason why the person you quoted made a boo-boo is because it matters not whether it is real or not. The energy companies possess the same information that we do: the invention being real or not does not increase or decrease the probability that he will be murdered.
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EPT
