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theres no pt in having the animals alive, so i say ban the religious ways of butchering.
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On June 29 2011 03:23 Thorakh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 03:18 Destro wrote:
people should be able to eat and prepare their food however they want, as long as its not in a way that damages the eco system. i see nothing wrong with this.
people put animals on a higher regard then other humans, yet animals lack all the qualities that define us and have much different nervous systems. the way a cow or a pig feels pain is MUCH different from human pain. I bothers me to no end how people disregard this. Its the same reason no one gives a shit about stepping on bugs.... I give a shit about stepping on bugs. If there is an ant on the road, I'm not going to purposely step on it. I don't see why anyone would do it, as it would cause needless harm to the ant, not to mention that if the ant were 100 times as big as you, you wouldn't want it to step on you either. And of course, that claim that animals feel pain differently is pretty meaningless because I've never heard of it, instead I've only heard the opposite so a source would be nice. Live and let live. Don't do to others what you don't want to have done to yourself.
I wouldn't want someone to eat me either, I guess I should stop eating meat. You have me convinced.
On topic.
The issue in this case is that we don't exactly know if it's more humane or less painful to use the stun-based method, if it can be proven that one method is more painful for the animal, we can get rid of that method and at that point we can start talking about the religious implications and whether they even matter, but at this point with nothing convincing me that the kosher method is actually more painful, I can't say I support the idea of banning it.
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On June 29 2011 04:29 Sultan wrote:
Running?? After having its jugular and carotid arteries cut? Are you sure?...I can't find the video.
they may run, kick if the cut isnt a proper one. it takes only 1 min max to die for a big, powerful bull if you know how to kill.
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On June 29 2011 04:29 Sultan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 04:20 Deadlyhazard wrote:On June 29 2011 04:19 Sultan wrote:On June 29 2011 04:16 Deadlyhazard wrote:
Yeah I saw this halal thing in the Zimmern show the other day. It took the animal about 10 minutes to die from bleeding out of the throat. And it was a camel ( I thought camels were restricted against this tradition....). It most certainly is NOT a humane way of killing animals, especially now that modern civilization has ways to kill them instantly. This is not an instant kill. The animal has already been dead. Its just bleeding out. The blood has to go somewhere, ya know. No, it was kicking around for awhile and running. It wasn't dead for quite a while. Bleeding out doesn't give instant death, though sometimes it kills the animal quickly. I still say it isn't a humane way of killing animals, because much pain is involved compared to other methods. Running?? After having its jugular and carotid arteries cut? Are you sure?...I can't find the video.
I saw it on the travel channel. And yes it was struggling after it had its throat cut for quite awhile. Just because all of that is cut doesn't mean it can't live for awhile afterwards and still have motor function. It just died...slowly because it was cut bad. And I'm sure mistakes are made like this all the time. It was also cut with a very very tiny dagger...
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1st world problems. sigh.
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On June 29 2011 04:36 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 03:23 Thorakh wrote:On June 29 2011 03:18 Destro wrote:
people should be able to eat and prepare their food however they want, as long as its not in a way that damages the eco system. i see nothing wrong with this.
people put animals on a higher regard then other humans, yet animals lack all the qualities that define us and have much different nervous systems. the way a cow or a pig feels pain is MUCH different from human pain. I bothers me to no end how people disregard this. Its the same reason no one gives a shit about stepping on bugs.... I give a shit about stepping on bugs. If there is an ant on the road, I'm not going to purposely step on it. I don't see why anyone would do it, as it would cause needless harm to the ant, not to mention that if the ant were 100 times as big as you, you wouldn't want it to step on you either. And of course, that claim that animals feel pain differently is pretty meaningless because I've never heard of it, instead I've only heard the opposite so a source would be nice. Live and let live. Don't do to others what you don't want to have done to yourself. I wouldn't want someone to eat me either, I guess I should stop eating meat. You have me convinced. I'm talking about needless harm. Read before you comment on my views.
1st world problems. sigh. You have me convinced now! Because there are bigger problems in the world obviously means we cannot deal with lesser problems!
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That you enjoy it? Yeah. You're anti-Semitic now.
No not really he was just saying that he doesn't understand why religions receive exemptions and government funding. That's not anti-religion it's anti special treatment for religion which is a whole separate off-topic argument. Throwing around the anti-Semite card reflexively makes you sound very over-reactive, and generally isn't very helpful... just a thought.
WTF, how is this even a poll this should be a 100% uncontested
I voted for "Animal Welfare" in the obviously biased poll but I feel like I need to clarify my opinion
The poll is biased and terrible, and designed in such a way to reprimand people for choosing to support Islam/Judaism by putting them as opposed to animal welfare. That removes the entire point of a debate/discussion and encourages posts like LOLWTF JOOZ HATE ANIMALS.
I'd encourage anyone to look up the OU response to PETA, or any discussions of Hallal slaughter vs shock slaughter. You will find valid scientific sources on both sides of the debate as to whether straight halachic (I'm talking kosher just because I know more about it) slaughter is more/less painful. The conclusion of the poll is not a given. I actually have a lot of problems with modern american jewry (am somewhat a member), but frequently defend them in arguments like this where people are jumping on a potentially misinformed bandwagon.
I don't think banning schitah and Halal slaughtering is in any way sensible or helpful. If they want to legislate with animal rights in mind they should look at the meat supply system as a whole and address problems with force-fed corn-grain rations necessitating heavy dosages of antibiotics to counter the problems created by the food regimen we give our cattle. The slaughter of the animal happens the first time they are fed things that cattle were not ever designed to eat. After 6-12 months of feeding like that the cows would actually die from the rations designed to fatten them up.
FTR, I'm not even necessarily opposed to all this. I just think its absurd how people are focusing on the method of slaughter pretending that they care wildly about the welfare of their feedstock when the slaughtering method in question is not neccessarily painful. Stomach ulcers... definitely painful.
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Animal welfare. quit meat eating, everything else is just hypocritical.
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On June 29 2011 04:40 Thorakh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 04:36 Mordiford wrote:On June 29 2011 03:23 Thorakh wrote:On June 29 2011 03:18 Destro wrote:
people should be able to eat and prepare their food however they want, as long as its not in a way that damages the eco system. i see nothing wrong with this.
people put animals on a higher regard then other humans, yet animals lack all the qualities that define us and have much different nervous systems. the way a cow or a pig feels pain is MUCH different from human pain. I bothers me to no end how people disregard this. Its the same reason no one gives a shit about stepping on bugs.... I give a shit about stepping on bugs. If there is an ant on the road, I'm not going to purposely step on it. I don't see why anyone would do it, as it would cause needless harm to the ant, not to mention that if the ant were 100 times as big as you, you wouldn't want it to step on you either. And of course, that claim that animals feel pain differently is pretty meaningless because I've never heard of it, instead I've only heard the opposite so a source would be nice. Live and let live. Don't do to others what you don't want to have done to yourself. I wouldn't want someone to eat me either, I guess I should stop eating meat. You have me convinced. I'm talking about needless harm. Read before you comment on my views. You have me convinced now! Because there are bigger problems in the world obviously means we cannot deal with lesser problems!
Eating an animal in the modern day seems pretty needless to me, particularly with all the supplemental protein available now adays. I'm actually not a vegetarian, and I'm not a vegetarian because this argument fails to convince me, the, "I would want it done to me" was the part of your post I was most responding to, of course you wouldn't want to be eaten either, why bring it up in reference to stepping on the ant. Would you rather be eaten than stepped on? I prefer neither.
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On June 29 2011 04:44 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 04:40 Thorakh wrote:On June 29 2011 04:36 Mordiford wrote:On June 29 2011 03:23 Thorakh wrote:On June 29 2011 03:18 Destro wrote:
people should be able to eat and prepare their food however they want, as long as its not in a way that damages the eco system. i see nothing wrong with this.
people put animals on a higher regard then other humans, yet animals lack all the qualities that define us and have much different nervous systems. the way a cow or a pig feels pain is MUCH different from human pain. I bothers me to no end how people disregard this. Its the same reason no one gives a shit about stepping on bugs.... I give a shit about stepping on bugs. If there is an ant on the road, I'm not going to purposely step on it. I don't see why anyone would do it, as it would cause needless harm to the ant, not to mention that if the ant were 100 times as big as you, you wouldn't want it to step on you either. And of course, that claim that animals feel pain differently is pretty meaningless because I've never heard of it, instead I've only heard the opposite so a source would be nice. Live and let live. Don't do to others what you don't want to have done to yourself. I wouldn't want someone to eat me either, I guess I should stop eating meat. You have me convinced. I'm talking about needless harm. Read before you comment on my views. 1st world problems. sigh. You have me convinced now! Because there are bigger problems in the world obviously means we cannot deal with lesser problems! Eating an animal in the modern day seems pretty needless to me, particularly with all the supplemental protein available now adays. I'm actually not a vegetarian, and I'm not a vegetarian because this argument fails to convince me, the, "I would want it done to me" was the part of your post I was most responding to, of course you wouldn't want to be eaten either, why bring it up in reference to stepping on the ant. Would you rather be eaten than stepped on? I prefer neither. Eating an animal serves a scientifically observable purpose whereas stepping on an animal does not.
Torturing an animal before it dies because a man in the sky said so has no scientific basis for being useful.
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On June 29 2011 04:46 Thorakh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 04:44 Mordiford wrote:On June 29 2011 04:40 Thorakh wrote:On June 29 2011 04:36 Mordiford wrote:On June 29 2011 03:23 Thorakh wrote:On June 29 2011 03:18 Destro wrote:
people should be able to eat and prepare their food however they want, as long as its not in a way that damages the eco system. i see nothing wrong with this.
people put animals on a higher regard then other humans, yet animals lack all the qualities that define us and have much different nervous systems. the way a cow or a pig feels pain is MUCH different from human pain. I bothers me to no end how people disregard this. Its the same reason no one gives a shit about stepping on bugs.... I give a shit about stepping on bugs. If there is an ant on the road, I'm not going to purposely step on it. I don't see why anyone would do it, as it would cause needless harm to the ant, not to mention that if the ant were 100 times as big as you, you wouldn't want it to step on you either. And of course, that claim that animals feel pain differently is pretty meaningless because I've never heard of it, instead I've only heard the opposite so a source would be nice. Live and let live. Don't do to others what you don't want to have done to yourself. I wouldn't want someone to eat me either, I guess I should stop eating meat. You have me convinced. I'm talking about needless harm. Read before you comment on my views. 1st world problems. sigh. You have me convinced now! Because there are bigger problems in the world obviously means we cannot deal with lesser problems! Eating an animal in the modern day seems pretty needless to me, particularly with all the supplemental protein available now adays. I'm actually not a vegetarian, and I'm not a vegetarian because this argument fails to convince me, the, "I would want it done to me" was the part of your post I was most responding to, of course you wouldn't want to be eaten either, why bring it up in reference to stepping on the ant. Would you rather be eaten than stepped on? I prefer neither. Eating an animal serves a purpose whereas stepping on an animal does not.
I wouldn't want to be eaten or stepped on though, and like I said, if we're bringing up modern technology and alternatives, there are plenty of supplements to take the place of eating an animal in just about every first world country.
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On June 29 2011 04:47 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 04:46 Thorakh wrote:On June 29 2011 04:44 Mordiford wrote:On June 29 2011 04:40 Thorakh wrote:On June 29 2011 04:36 Mordiford wrote:On June 29 2011 03:23 Thorakh wrote:On June 29 2011 03:18 Destro wrote:
people should be able to eat and prepare their food however they want, as long as its not in a way that damages the eco system. i see nothing wrong with this.
people put animals on a higher regard then other humans, yet animals lack all the qualities that define us and have much different nervous systems. the way a cow or a pig feels pain is MUCH different from human pain. I bothers me to no end how people disregard this. Its the same reason no one gives a shit about stepping on bugs.... I give a shit about stepping on bugs. If there is an ant on the road, I'm not going to purposely step on it. I don't see why anyone would do it, as it would cause needless harm to the ant, not to mention that if the ant were 100 times as big as you, you wouldn't want it to step on you either. And of course, that claim that animals feel pain differently is pretty meaningless because I've never heard of it, instead I've only heard the opposite so a source would be nice. Live and let live. Don't do to others what you don't want to have done to yourself. I wouldn't want someone to eat me either, I guess I should stop eating meat. You have me convinced. I'm talking about needless harm. Read before you comment on my views. 1st world problems. sigh. You have me convinced now! Because there are bigger problems in the world obviously means we cannot deal with lesser problems! Eating an animal in the modern day seems pretty needless to me, particularly with all the supplemental protein available now adays. I'm actually not a vegetarian, and I'm not a vegetarian because this argument fails to convince me, the, "I would want it done to me" was the part of your post I was most responding to, of course you wouldn't want to be eaten either, why bring it up in reference to stepping on the ant. Would you rather be eaten than stepped on? I prefer neither. Eating an animal serves a purpose whereas stepping on an animal does not. I wouldn't want to be eaten or stepped on though, and like I said, if we're bringing up modern technology and alternatives, there are plenty of supplements to take the place of eating an animal in just about every first world country. And as I have already said I also believe that humans are superior to animals and therefore I do not object to the use of animals as food.
I do however believe that the 'no torture' laws should extend to every living being, animals have feelings and that more intelligent animals have more complex emotions with the human being the most complex animal.
That is why I am also in favor of not having chimpanzees as pets because they simply are too intelligent. We don't keep mentally handicapped people as pets either.
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The poll is just wrong. It's not like governments are slaughtering billions of chickens/cow's/sheep's in a ''humane'' way. So i don't understand why you would put ''animal welfare'' in there.
There is a difference in letting an animal live a natural life and slaughter it with a razor quick and discreetly.
Or raise them in small cages and feed them all kinds of hormones/drugs/fat,muscle enhancers and slaughter them with modern day drugs.
You decide what is animal welfare in that.
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On June 29 2011 04:51 Thorakh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 04:47 Mordiford wrote:On June 29 2011 04:46 Thorakh wrote:On June 29 2011 04:44 Mordiford wrote:On June 29 2011 04:40 Thorakh wrote:On June 29 2011 04:36 Mordiford wrote:On June 29 2011 03:23 Thorakh wrote:On June 29 2011 03:18 Destro wrote:
people should be able to eat and prepare their food however they want, as long as its not in a way that damages the eco system. i see nothing wrong with this.
people put animals on a higher regard then other humans, yet animals lack all the qualities that define us and have much different nervous systems. the way a cow or a pig feels pain is MUCH different from human pain. I bothers me to no end how people disregard this. Its the same reason no one gives a shit about stepping on bugs.... I give a shit about stepping on bugs. If there is an ant on the road, I'm not going to purposely step on it. I don't see why anyone would do it, as it would cause needless harm to the ant, not to mention that if the ant were 100 times as big as you, you wouldn't want it to step on you either. And of course, that claim that animals feel pain differently is pretty meaningless because I've never heard of it, instead I've only heard the opposite so a source would be nice. Live and let live. Don't do to others what you don't want to have done to yourself. I wouldn't want someone to eat me either, I guess I should stop eating meat. You have me convinced. I'm talking about needless harm. Read before you comment on my views. 1st world problems. sigh. You have me convinced now! Because there are bigger problems in the world obviously means we cannot deal with lesser problems! Eating an animal in the modern day seems pretty needless to me, particularly with all the supplemental protein available now adays. I'm actually not a vegetarian, and I'm not a vegetarian because this argument fails to convince me, the, "I would want it done to me" was the part of your post I was most responding to, of course you wouldn't want to be eaten either, why bring it up in reference to stepping on the ant. Would you rather be eaten than stepped on? I prefer neither. Eating an animal serves a purpose whereas stepping on an animal does not. I wouldn't want to be eaten or stepped on though, and like I said, if we're bringing up modern technology and alternatives, there are plenty of supplements to take the place of eating an animal in just about every first world country. And as I have already said I also believe that humans are superior to animals and therefore I do not object to the use of animals as food. I do however believe that the 'no torture' laws should extend to every living being, animals have feelings and that more intelligent animals have more complex emotions with the human being the most complex animal.
Well, that's fair but that still sort of kills the earlier, "I wouldn't want to be stepped on" comment you made, which was what I was referring to specifically.
Also in responding to me you said...
On June 29 2011 04:46 Thorakh wrote:
Torturing an animal before it dies because a man in the sky said so has no scientific basis for being useful.
But I don't see how this is relevant, when there isn't much reason to believe that they're actually torturing the animal. Someone posted reference to research suggesting that's it's no more painful, but I haven't seen much said to the contrary other than speculation.
It would seem you're just an aggressive atheist looking for an argument and in this regard, sure if it was proven that it were more painful and inhumane, I would likely agree with you, but until then there's no point arguing in that regard.
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On June 29 2011 04:55 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 04:51 Thorakh wrote:On June 29 2011 04:47 Mordiford wrote:On June 29 2011 04:46 Thorakh wrote:On June 29 2011 04:44 Mordiford wrote:On June 29 2011 04:40 Thorakh wrote:On June 29 2011 04:36 Mordiford wrote:On June 29 2011 03:23 Thorakh wrote:On June 29 2011 03:18 Destro wrote:
people should be able to eat and prepare their food however they want, as long as its not in a way that damages the eco system. i see nothing wrong with this.
people put animals on a higher regard then other humans, yet animals lack all the qualities that define us and have much different nervous systems. the way a cow or a pig feels pain is MUCH different from human pain. I bothers me to no end how people disregard this. Its the same reason no one gives a shit about stepping on bugs.... I give a shit about stepping on bugs. If there is an ant on the road, I'm not going to purposely step on it. I don't see why anyone would do it, as it would cause needless harm to the ant, not to mention that if the ant were 100 times as big as you, you wouldn't want it to step on you either. And of course, that claim that animals feel pain differently is pretty meaningless because I've never heard of it, instead I've only heard the opposite so a source would be nice. Live and let live. Don't do to others what you don't want to have done to yourself. I wouldn't want someone to eat me either, I guess I should stop eating meat. You have me convinced. I'm talking about needless harm. Read before you comment on my views. 1st world problems. sigh. You have me convinced now! Because there are bigger problems in the world obviously means we cannot deal with lesser problems! Eating an animal in the modern day seems pretty needless to me, particularly with all the supplemental protein available now adays. I'm actually not a vegetarian, and I'm not a vegetarian because this argument fails to convince me, the, "I would want it done to me" was the part of your post I was most responding to, of course you wouldn't want to be eaten either, why bring it up in reference to stepping on the ant. Would you rather be eaten than stepped on? I prefer neither. Eating an animal serves a purpose whereas stepping on an animal does not. I wouldn't want to be eaten or stepped on though, and like I said, if we're bringing up modern technology and alternatives, there are plenty of supplements to take the place of eating an animal in just about every first world country. And as I have already said I also believe that humans are superior to animals and therefore I do not object to the use of animals as food. I do however believe that the 'no torture' laws should extend to every living being, animals have feelings and that more intelligent animals have more complex emotions with the human being the most complex animal. Well, that's fair but that still sort of kills the earlier, "I wouldn't want to be stepped on" comment you made, which was what I was referring to specifically. And that is where my 'cause no purposeless harm' (obviously the purpose of deriving pleasure from violence excluded) comes in.
Also in responding to me you said.. Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 04:46 Thorakh wrote:
Torturing an animal before it dies because a man in the sky said so has no scientific basis for being useful. But I don't see how this is relevant, when there is much reason to believe that we're actually torturing the animal. Someone posted reference to research suggesting that's it's no more painful, but I haven't seen much said to the contrary other than speculation. It would seem you're just an aggressive atheist looking for an argument and in this regard, sure if it was proven that it were more painful and inhumane, I would likely agree with you, but until then there's no point arguing in that regard.
And as I've already said before, I have no problems with these specific religious slaughters if there is no cruelty involved.
Also, I'm not an atheist 
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No religious exceptions. The only question is if animals can be humanely killed while conscious -- if they can, then the Dutch law is unreasonably restrictive.
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For some reason the idea of stepping on something to kill it has plagued this thread now. We were talking about cutting an animals throat with a very sharp knife.
Anyways on topic. I Myself am a farmboy I grew up on a farm we slaughtered chickens every fall and shot deer and butchered cattle. Many people believe these kinds of things are wrong. And I can't personally believe that they would go as far as trying to force us to stop by complaining to the government. It is completely preposterous that people think by complaining to the government that they will get what they want and stop age old traditions and methods of surviving (living in the world).
What really grinds my gears (I hate to use that term) is that people say "Why don't you just go to the super market and buy your meat?" Well the nearest super market from home is about 30 miles away and with gas prices the way they are your talking about a 50$ trip every time I want to have a steak for supper. Instead I'll walk out to the freezer throw my T-bone in the microwave and defrost it then fry it in a pan.
I myself have killed many animals (cows, chickens, even wild ones such as grouse, whitetail deer and many other native species to the great state of Minnesota) using methods such as slicing their throat, shooting them in the head, beheading. I can tell you that the pain they feel is little to none. Just because they are bleeding all over the place people tend to think OMG IT MUST HURT. No. They either passed out or fainted almost instantly because of the shock or loss of blood.
Anyways enough of my rant I don't think anyone has the right the tell someone how to live or who to worship (I'm an atheist and I don't go preaching to people to be like me because that would mean I'm being just as bad as my opposites). I especially dislike the fact that people run to the government to complain rather then dealing with something by themselves.
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On June 29 2011 04:01 Destro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 03:58 Zorgaz wrote:
Religion is only acceptable if it doesn't interfere with the law or humane ethics.
Cutting the animals throat isn't humane, of course the animal feels the pain.
It's just a bunch of bull*#&!
you mean, your human ethics.
If animal cruelty doesn't disturb you, then atleast I think that's kinda disturbing.
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On June 29 2011 05:13 Zorgaz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 04:01 Destro wrote:On June 29 2011 03:58 Zorgaz wrote:
Religion is only acceptable if it doesn't interfere with the law or humane ethics.
Cutting the animals throat isn't humane, of course the animal feels the pain.
It's just a bunch of bull*#&!
you mean, your human ethics. If animal cruelty doesn't disturb you, then atleast I think that's kinda disturbing.
Everything that you have posted has been in your own perspective, and by the sounds of it, you are a vegan atheist, if not, you're a hypocrite.
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On June 29 2011 05:13 Zorgaz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 04:01 Destro wrote:On June 29 2011 03:58 Zorgaz wrote:
Religion is only acceptable if it doesn't interfere with the law or humane ethics.
Cutting the animals throat isn't humane, of course the animal feels the pain.
It's just a bunch of bull*#&!
you mean, your human ethics. If animal cruelty doesn't disturb you, then atleast I think that's kinda disturbing.
Meat looks same on the plate either way, if certain people think that killing the animal in a certain way makes them happy, as long as it doesn't take away from the taste, I don't mind it.
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EPT
