EPTWhat is really at issue, at least here in the states, is how animals are raised, Almost all of the animals raised for consumption here are treated brutally up until the day they die. It's awful for the animals, the environment, and ultimately for human health. I won't go into detail here, but it is the way animals are raised, more than the way that they are slaughtered that has led to my decision not to eat factory farmed animal products (which greatly limits my consumption).
Banning halal/kosher butchering - Page 11
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theBOOCH
United States832 Posts
What is really at issue, at least here in the states, is how animals are raised, Almost all of the animals raised for consumption here are treated brutally up until the day they die. It's awful for the animals, the environment, and ultimately for human health. I won't go into detail here, but it is the way animals are raised, more than the way that they are slaughtered that has led to my decision not to eat factory farmed animal products (which greatly limits my consumption). | ||
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Destro
Netherlands1206 Posts
On June 29 2011 03:35 Sabu113 wrote: As long as I can have my Veal... agreed. veal is delicious! lamb, also amazing. Its funny how the younger and cuter an animal is, the more delicious it becomes! | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On June 29 2011 03:14 Thorakh wrote: I'm sorry, but physical harm is worse than spiritual harm in this case. The physical harm that you cause by torturing animals is greater than the spiritual harm caused by not being able to torture animals. If anything, the religious people here are the ones that need to think beyond their own self, and should care about the animal. Apology accepted, I don't see torture in animals in these religious traditions. | ||
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pullarius1
United States523 Posts
On June 29 2011 02:49 twstdletz wrote: Again, incorrect. The slaughter depicted is 100% NOT kosher under rabbinic law. The slaughtering cut must be 100% severation first try. Look up the orthodox response to PETA to address those videos. I like the idea of this debate, but the poll is terribly done and a lot of people commenting on the slaughter practices of hallal and kosher have no idea what they are talking about. I looked up the Orthodox response and found this: http://www.ou.org/other/5765/shechita6-65.htm “After carefully studying the [PETA] video, Rabbi Menachem Genack and Rabbi Yisroel Belsky, one of the OU’s distinguished poskim (rabbinic decisors), traveled to Postville, Iowa to review the procedures at the AgriProcessors plant. They found that these procedures meet all OU standards to the highest degree, and that the shochtim (rabbinic slaughters) are all highly proficient, skilled and knowledgeable." So at least the second video is a process fully sanctioned. All the cuts look fairly clean to me, even in the first video, and the animals don't seem like they are put in any pain further than what would be associated with cutting one's throat. I haven't said anything one way or another about whether I think it's permissible, I just posted links to videos of the process. I'm sorry that the first video editorializes, but I couldn't find that footage without the text edited it. | ||
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Flingoko
Denmark68 Posts
Well, if the meat is better and i dont get to butcher the animal - halal it is! | ||
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Atasu
Canada98 Posts
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MrTortoise
1388 Posts
As is the ismalaphobe argument - and id add to that whoever accused someone of being islamaphobe is a racist douchbag, If looking at a child makes you horny your a peado, if you see a conversation about halal and think racist, your a racist. Pain is totally subjective, int hat i mean you CANNOT in any way make a claim in another being without anthropomorphising, you are just making stuff up. 'Well a human would react lie this, and the animal does so i assume that it feels pain' Asf or the topic, all ive eaten really in the last 10 years is hallal ... i want choice ... if peopel can choose halal meat the same place should server non halal meat. That doesnt exist though, instead people who have no religous belief get no choice because someone wrote in a book once about some bullshit. I find that to be discriminatory. Its the 21st centuary, i appreciate cultural differences need to be appreciated ... but why is it always one way? When i goto america i have to drink shit coffee, i accept that. | ||
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Thorakh
Netherlands1788 Posts
On June 29 2011 03:32 Destro wrote: The fact that animals lack the intelligence to understand what is going on does not magically mean they have no feelings and therefore are unable to suffer. In fact, you are saying that it is okay to step on a severely mentally handicapped human that cannot comprehend the situation he is in.this is exactly what im talking about. putting ants on the level of humans. saying you wouldnt like to be stepped on is all happy and great, but the fact is that you can only register in that brain because you are human.. an ant doesn't have this. they lack the comprehension of the situation all together.. same with cows.. i think youd see a lot of cows trampling fences of slaughter houses if they actually knew what was going on. Its silly, because if you take out the human element, the animals die to other animals in much more savage and grotesque ways that if humans did it, there would be a lynch mob after them. But we humanize animals by pretending they are like us, and as soon as they act different from us (like they are genetically programmed to do..) they are just animals again. Its a stupid double standard that i find fascinating. You are forgetting the fact that animals don't know any better. Not to mention that no animals beside chimps derive pleasure from torture. | ||
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Ravencruiser
Canada519 Posts
If the whole point of halal food is to "mercifully" kill animals for food minimizing their suffering and if rendering an animal unconscious reduces suffering then all the Jews/Muslims should just suck it up and stop the completely pointless and bs practice. | ||
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Sultan
United States52 Posts
On June 29 2011 02:45 Jokithedruid wrote: From wikipedia about Halal: "In 1978, a study incorporating EEG (electroencephalograph) with electrodes surgically implanted on the skull of 17 sheep and 15 calves, and conducted by Wilhelm Schulze et al. at the University of Veterinary Medicine in Germany concluded that "the slaughter in the form of a ritual cut is, if carried out properly, painless in sheep and calves according to EEG recordings and the missing defensive actions" (of the animals) and that "For sheep, there were in part severe reactions both in bloodletting cut and the pain stimuli" when captive bolt stunning (CBS) was used.[13][17] This study is cited by the German Constitutional Court in its permitting of dhabiha slaughtering.[18]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halal Read the whole article because there are both arguments for and against from different authors (although the against is just superstitious and lack substance to support them). This. I hate how religious-phobia is being taken advantage of to promote a select group's political agenda. The entire issue and the religion vs. animal welfare debate it raises is just b/s. If they really cared for animal welfare, they should just get rid of industrial-size, conyevor-belt type butchering. Halal/kosher slaughtering requires religious incantations, which is fairly impossible to accomplish in a factory setting through machines. I think this law is too polar to pass, but I have been surprised before...(like Switzerland banning Minarets). | ||
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SpearWrit
United States300 Posts
For those of you who are like "Kosher/Halal is such a stupid practice, because it's RELIGION." : Kosher and Halal done right are humane. Meaning they don't violate the new law anyway, even without the religious exception. Problem? *coolface.jpg* | ||
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emythrel
United Kingdom2599 Posts
We raise animals to be eaten, that is their sole purpose, if people are worried about animal welfare then surely they should be all out against this. The manner of how you kill the animal is of little consequence if it has been born simply to be eaten, the animal will be in pain yes, but it will be dead shortly anyway. I guess it really depends whether you have the technology available to you or not. I can understand not wanting an animal raised as a pet to be in pain, you have an emotional attachment to it, it is part of the family, but some animal that you've never met that wasn't kept as a pet but at a food source is completely different. However, I personally can't stand people who do something "because its traditional" or "because of their religion" when there is a far cleaner, safer and more humane way of achieving the same goal by using modern technology and practices. Therefore I am totally against halal/kosher because it is clinging to outdated and completely ridiculous beliefs (in my opinion, yours may differ and that's fine lol). Though if someone could show that it is equally quick and painless as modern methods, then I guess it would be fine.... if still a stupid belief behind it. I guess my standpoint is this, you should attempt to make killing the animal as quick and painless as possible, if you are living in deepest Africa or South America and don't have access to modern technology then just slit its throat and be done with it.... if you are at a slaughter house with all the mod cons, then knock it out before you slice it open. | ||
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sc4k
United Kingdom5454 Posts
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GreEny K
Germany7312 Posts
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SpearWrit
United States300 Posts
On June 29 2011 03:54 emythrel wrote: However, I personally can't stand people who do something "because its traditional" or "because of their religion" when there is a far cleaner, safer and more humane way of achieving the same goal by using modern technology and practices. Therefore I am totally against halal/kosher because it is clinging to outdated and completely ridiculous beliefs (in my opinion, yours may differ and that's fine lol). That means you don't know what halal/kosher is. Try and read up on it before posting. Is it wrong that I just enjoy the idea of getting rid of any exemptions religions enjoy from the law that the rest of us have to follow? And for this reason I voted against Islam/Judaism... That you enjoy it? Yeah. You're anti-Semitic now. User was warned for this post | ||
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Moochlol
United States456 Posts
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Destro
Netherlands1206 Posts
On June 29 2011 03:48 Thorakh wrote: The fact that animals lack the intelligence to understand what is going on does not magically mean they have no feelings and therefore are unable to suffer. In fact, you are saying that it is okay to step on a severely mentally handicapped human that cannot comprehend the situation he is in. feelings? really? ants have feelings? When one ant rubs up on another, does the ant's ex boyfriend get jealous? not knowing better is another weird arguement because its arrogant to say that we know better and have a higher place in the food chain. Fact of the matter is, we are animals as well. Just because we like to pamper our food and hope it has a pleasant death doesn't mean that animals deserve it. Its a cultural thing that has developed. a tiger much more prefers to hunt down and eat the animal while it still squirms and suffers. Who are we to say that we know better? now halal for example, is one culture's interpretation of the question of how to prepare food. Who are we to say how they eat their goddamn food? You are forgetting the fact that animals don't know any better. Not to mention that no animals beside chimps derive pleasure from torture. | ||
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emythrel
United Kingdom2599 Posts
On June 29 2011 03:55 SpearWrit wrote: That means you don't know what halal/kosher is. Try and read up on it before posting. It is based on religious beliefs, if thats you're only reason for doing it.... its stupid. I did edit my post to say that if it is equally quick and painless then its fine, even if the reasoning behind it is stupid. | ||
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Zorgaz
Sweden2951 Posts
Cutting the animals throat isn't humane, of course the animal feels the pain. It's just a bunch of bull*#&! | ||
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SpearWrit
United States300 Posts
On June 29 2011 03:57 Moochlol wrote: Since religion is the bane of human existence, I vote animal rights. Ignorance like yours is truly the bane of human existence. | ||
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