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On June 29 2011 02:32 dudeman001 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 02:25 Jokithedruid wrote:
There has been scientific proof that the level of adrenalin (stress hormone) is higher in a animal that is stunned than an animal that is Halal/Kosher slaughtered. This is due to that the animals are only partly stunned with conventional methods and is still consious when slaughtered in a slaughterhouse, while it takes approx. 3 sec for the animal to loose consious due to bloodloss if it is Halal/Kosher slaughtered. The shock in the animal will also take away the pain for these 3 sec, i.e. this legislation is just uncalled for.
Actually this is just a way of oppressing a minority in a country where extreme rightwing politics is highly popular and i am not suprised at all that they use the "cruel people" card to oppress. Do you know where the study can be found for reference?
From wikipedia about Halal:
"In 1978, a study incorporating EEG (electroencephalograph) with electrodes surgically implanted on the skull of 17 sheep and 15 calves, and conducted by Wilhelm Schulze et al. at the University of Veterinary Medicine in Germany concluded that "the slaughter in the form of a ritual cut is, if carried out properly, painless in sheep and calves according to EEG recordings and the missing defensive actions" (of the animals) and that "For sheep, there were in part severe reactions both in bloodletting cut and the pain stimuli" when captive bolt stunning (CBS) was used.[13][17] This study is cited by the German Constitutional Court in its permitting of dhabiha slaughtering.[18]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halal
Read the whole article because there are both arguments for and against from different authors (although the against is just superstitious and lack substance to support them).
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On June 29 2011 02:38 pullarius1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 01:52 semantics wrote:On June 29 2011 00:03 koreasilver wrote:
Loaded poll. On June 28 2011 23:09 legaton wrote:
Vegans surfing on european islamophobia to forbid all of us to eat meat what we want because the "meat industry" makes animals suffer.
First they came for the Halal meat,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a muslim.
Then they came for the Kosher meat,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a jew.
Then they came for my meat
and there was no one left to speak out for my meat. Sounds like xenophobic laws trying to pass under the guise of being fair because it punishes Jewish people as well as Muslim. Unless the cow is hooked up to a catscan while all this is occurring i don't see anything. All this is, is you putting your own opinion on how the animals feels based on how it looks you're humanizing with it. There is a reason why you call it humane i don't see lions stunning their prey. They are both videos of the kosher method. I wasn't putting my opinion on anything- I was just trying to give a balanced view by showing two videos, one of which looks very gruesome as it shows cows struggling to stand and flopping around afterwards, and one that seems less so because the cows are restrained and it is a very orderly environment.
No, they are not. They are calling themselves kosher, but it is not how kosher method goes. They should be banned, no doubt about it, but some exceptions does not override 1000 years of traditions. You need some real evidence, that kosher/halal slaughtering are that much more inhuman than electric shocker. There should be some 3rd party control institutions with clear view on this problem, without any boundaries with PETA or religious groups, who can decide on this matter.
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They are both videos of the kosher method
Again, incorrect. The slaughter depicted is 100% NOT kosher under rabbinic law. The slaughtering cut must be 100% severation first try. Look up the orthodox response to PETA to address those videos. I like the idea of this debate, but the poll is terribly done and a lot of people commenting on the slaughter practices of hallal and kosher have no idea what they are talking about.
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Religions change and evolve so why make exceptions for them? Example, Mormons no longer hate black people or allow polygamy.
Even in the old testemant, guys like David and Solomon had HUNDREDS of wives and concubines, but that doesn't happen today. I don't see anyone whining or crying about tradition. Hey, slavery used to be okay too!
Humanity, compassion, progress >>>>>>>>>>> barbaric religious practices
Its absurd to allow religious arguments to decide policy
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"Before the Second World War, religious slaughter was tolerated in Europe, except for four countries (Switzerland in 1893, Norway in 1930, Poland and Sweden in 1938). Religious slaughter without stunning was prohibited in several countries in Europe from 1936 to 1944 under the occupation of Nazi Germany (Germany in 1936, Italy in 1938, then in the majority of the other European countries according to the Nazi Germany occupation progress between 1940 and 1944)."
Fun fact that Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy did these regulations, wonder why  .
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On June 29 2011 02:41 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 02:36 Thorakh wrote:On June 29 2011 02:34 Torte de Lini wrote:
In this particular case, I believe religious tradition takes over animal welfare. The process of stunning animals is to please those who care for animal welfare.
Who's going to care for the religiously devoted? Not caring about animal welfare = harm done to animals. Not caring about religiously devoted = no harm done to anyone. It is clear which option is better if we view 'harm done' as a bad thing. Physically, no. But Spiritually yes and you have to think a bit beyond your own self to understand that. I'm sorry, but physical harm is worse than spiritual harm in this case. The physical harm that you cause by torturing animals is greater than the spiritual harm caused by not being able to torture animals.
If anything, the religious people here are the ones that need to think beyond their own self, and should care about the animal.
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people should be able to eat and prepare their food however they want, as long as its not in a way that damages the eco system. i see nothing wrong with this.
people put animals on a higher regard then other humans, yet animals lack all the qualities that define us and have much different nervous systems. the way a cow or a pig feels pain is MUCH different from human pain. I bothers me to no end how people disregard this. Its the same reason no one gives a shit about stepping on bugs....
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On June 29 2011 03:18 Destro wrote:
people should be able to eat and prepare their food however they want, as long as its not in a way that damages the eco system. i see nothing wrong with this.
people put animals on a higher regard then other humans, yet animals lack all the qualities that define us and have much different nervous systems. the way a cow or a pig feels pain is MUCH different from human pain. I bothers me to no end how people disregard this. Its the same reason no one gives a shit about stepping on bugs....
This is really meaningless without a source.
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On June 29 2011 03:18 Destro wrote:
people should be able to eat and prepare their food however they want, as long as its not in a way that damages the eco system. i see nothing wrong with this.
people put animals on a higher regard then other humans, yet animals lack all the qualities that define us and have much different nervous systems. the way a cow or a pig feels pain is MUCH different from human pain. I bothers me to no end how people disregard this. Its the same reason no one gives a shit about stepping on bugs.... I give a shit about stepping on bugs. If there is an ant on the road, I'm not going to purposely step on it. I don't see why anyone would do it, as it would cause needless harm to the ant, not to mention that if the ant were 100 times as big as you, you wouldn't want it to step on you either.
And of course, that claim that animals feel pain differently is pretty meaningless because I've never heard of it, instead I've only heard the opposite so a source would be nice.
Live and let live. Don't do to others what you don't want to have done to yourself.
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On June 29 2011 03:18 Destro wrote:
people should be able to eat and prepare their food however they want, as long as its not in a way that damages the eco system. i see nothing wrong with this.
people put animals on a higher regard then other humans, yet animals lack all the qualities that define us and have much different nervous systems. the way a cow or a pig feels pain is MUCH different from human pain. I bothers me to no end how people disregard this. Its the same reason no one gives a shit about stepping on bugs....
What does MUCH different mean? Is that suppose the be a argument for or against this?
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Animal Welfare of course. Laws should apply to all no matter what religion they have.
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On June 29 2011 03:18 Destro wrote:
people should be able to eat and prepare their food however they want, as long as its not in a way that damages the eco system. i see nothing wrong with this.
people put animals on a higher regard then other humans, yet animals lack all the qualities that define us and have much different nervous systems. the way a cow or a pig feels pain is MUCH different from human pain. I bothers me to no end how people disregard this. Its the same reason no one gives a shit about stepping on bugs....
In fact, insects and spiders should be regarded alot higher than mammals since they are sooooo much more important for the eco system. But you don't see PETA fight for their rights! Poor insects getting squashed for no apperent reason evil humans no humane!
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On June 29 2011 03:26 Jokithedruid wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 03:18 Destro wrote:
people should be able to eat and prepare their food however they want, as long as its not in a way that damages the eco system. i see nothing wrong with this.
people put animals on a higher regard then other humans, yet animals lack all the qualities that define us and have much different nervous systems. the way a cow or a pig feels pain is MUCH different from human pain. I bothers me to no end how people disregard this. Its the same reason no one gives a shit about stepping on bugs.... In fact, insects and spiders should be regarded alot higher than mammals since they are sooooo much more important for the eco system. But you don't see PETA fight for their rights! Poor insects getting squashed for no apperent reason evil humans no humane! That is because insects have no appeal to the masses and therefore don't 'sell' to the general public, however important they might be.
It's sad yes, but 'saving' a panda is just more appealing to most people than saving obscure species of bug number X that plays a vital role in the ecosystem of the earth.
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If there's one thing that always perplexes me, sometimes downright annoys - is the inability (refusal?) for religious cultures to evolve to a changing world, to adapt to changing cultures, to accept newfound human knowledge.
I don't understand why, for example, the muslim method of slaughter cannot be re-interpreted; indeed, the entire point of it is to pay respect to the animal and kill it in a 'sinless' manner - is this not also the point of modern animal slaughter techniques?
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come to America, ill show u "animal welfare" in the slaughter houses.
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On June 29 2011 03:23 Thorakh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 03:18 Destro wrote:
people should be able to eat and prepare their food however they want, as long as its not in a way that damages the eco system. i see nothing wrong with this.
people put animals on a higher regard then other humans, yet animals lack all the qualities that define us and have much different nervous systems. the way a cow or a pig feels pain is MUCH different from human pain. I bothers me to no end how people disregard this. Its the same reason no one gives a shit about stepping on bugs.... I give a shit about stepping on bugs. If there is an ant on the road, I'm not going to purposely step on it. I don't see why anyone would do it, as it would cause needless harm to the ant, not to mention that if the ant were 100 times as big as you, you wouldn't want it to step on you either. And of course, that claim that animals feel pain differently is pretty meaningless because I've never heard of it, instead I've only heard the opposite so a source would be nice. Live and let live. Don't do to others what you don't want to have done to yourself.
this is exactly what im talking about. putting ants on the level of humans. saying you wouldnt like to be stepped on is all happy and great, but the fact is that you can only register in that brain because you are human.. an ant doesn't have this. they lack the comprehension of the situation all together.. same with cows.. i think youd see a lot of cows trampling fences of slaughter houses if they actually knew what was going on.
Its silly, because if you take out the human element, the animals die to other animals in much more savage and grotesque ways that if humans did it, there would be a lynch mob after them. But we humanize animals by pretending they are like us, and as soon as they act different from us (like they are genetically programmed to do..) they are just animals again. Its a stupid double standard that i find fascinating.
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On June 29 2011 03:28 Thorakh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2011 03:26 Jokithedruid wrote:On June 29 2011 03:18 Destro wrote:
people should be able to eat and prepare their food however they want, as long as its not in a way that damages the eco system. i see nothing wrong with this.
people put animals on a higher regard then other humans, yet animals lack all the qualities that define us and have much different nervous systems. the way a cow or a pig feels pain is MUCH different from human pain. I bothers me to no end how people disregard this. Its the same reason no one gives a shit about stepping on bugs.... In fact, insects and spiders should be regarded alot higher than mammals since they are sooooo much more important for the eco system. But you don't see PETA fight for their rights! Poor insects getting squashed for no apperent reason evil humans no humane! That is because insects have no appeal to the masses and therefore don't 'sell' to the general public, however important they might be. It's sad yes, but 'saving' a panda is just more appealing to most people than saving obscure species of bug number X that plays a vital role in the ecosystem of the earth.
the insects dont need us, they will be eating our corpses for millions of years 
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As long as I can have my Veal...
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On June 28 2011 23:09 legaton wrote:
Vegans surfing on european islamophobia to forbid all of us to eat meat what we want because the "meat industry" makes animals suffer.
First they came for the Halal meat,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a muslim.
Then they came for the Kosher meat,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a jew.
Then they came for my meat
and there was no one left to speak out for my meat.
Nice job ruining that quote for some religious bullshit.
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EPT
