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To be honest I do not really understand how a comparison between the nazi concentration camps and the butchering of animalis is a valid one, and I have yet to see a compelling argument to make the comparisen slightly more reasonable.
To begin with, I think it's fair to say that all morality does (or at least should) be focused on the wellbeing of conscious beings, as well as their potential for distress and unhappiness. Needless to say, if animals were like robots and unable to feel pain or distress one would certainly not object to mistreating them or slaughtering them in horrific ways. However, it is probable beyond reasonal doubt that mammalian animals DO feel pain and can indeed feel somewhat sad. I can't possibly think of any non-sociopathic pet owner objecting to such an obvious statement.
The reasonable question followed by the ethical premise of minimizing suffering is "How do we do it?" We can certainly distinguish between a great deal of pain and lesser pain, so a less painful way to slaughter an animal is preferrable. This is still true and reasonable even if you are not an ethical vegetarian. The argument would be something like: "I like meat and therefore support the industry, but I don't want the animals to suffer more than is absolutely necessary."
We do not have to be absolutists to avoid being hypocrites, but my concern with the meat industry is that so many of the animals actually suffer a great deal before dying. Were this not the case, imagine animals living in harmony to the very day they were slaughtered in the most humane way possible- could we object to this if we only consider the wellbeing of animals. I don't think so.
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Animals suffer more from the stun.
Did you see videos with stun ? It's fucking disgusting. Cows are in fact partially stun, and they feel the pain when they are cut alive.
I think that they suffer less with direct neck slaughter.
If i were sentenced to death i would choose the guillotine, no doubt about that. The injections to make you sleep, just don't work as they should !
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This OP doesn't lend itself at all to a good discussion.
The poll is really beyond misdirected. It asks what is more important "Animal wellfare" or "Jewish and Muslim traditions". First of all "Animal Wellfare" as a description for "subjectively more humane killing of a being that you want to devour" is kind of stretching semantics. Also the second option should read "religious traditions" since it really shouldn't make a difference which religions we are talking about here. There is just so much bias in the question.
Edit:
gosuMalicE sums up what I would expect a better OP to look like.
On July 01 2011 06:35 gosuMalicE wrote:Poll: This poll has better options.Allowing humane halal/kosher butchering. (14) 70% Disallowing halal/kosher butchering because I beleive it is not humane. (3) 15% I am a vegitarian/vegan and am against butchering of animals in general. (3) 15% 20 total votes Your vote: This poll has better options. (Vote): Allowing humane halal/kosher butchering.
(Vote): Disallowing halal/kosher butchering because I beleive it is not humane.
(Vote): I am a vegitarian/vegan and am against butchering of animals in general.
How about a less biased poll.
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@diggurd
I assume you mean the novel by Nietzsche from where i got my signature quote? I actually have not read it yet, but it is on my "to-read" list. Whats your point?
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You should change the 2nd answer to be "religious traditions" to get people's REAL opinions and how many christians only voted A because they aren't interested in jews or muslims.
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On July 01 2011 06:30 diggurd wrote:
@usul:
i am sorry but i dont think you need to dig a little deeper.
lets say you are a veal. your whole life, which is 5 months, you have been placed in a little cell, tied up so you cant sit or move (your meat will be tenderer). when the time comes for your death, youll get a different set of options - would you give the butcher some karma points if you chose the least painful method?
Its not about karma points. Its about pain. Yes, I still would prefer the less painfull ending, thank you. And I dont think treating animals like you describe here is allowed in the Netherlands (I know it it not in Germany).
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They way they do the slaughtering over here is knock them out, but it has to be done by a Muslim they pray to it, then they cut it a certain way, then we ship to the Western world.
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There's a rising trend of anti-muslim views across Europe (especially Holland) in the past few years. Opportunistic politicians are just using the guise of animal welfare to further make clear that they are against muslim customs.
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On July 01 2011 18:13 redux46 wrote:
There's a rising trend of anti-muslim views across Europe (especially Holland) in the past few years. Opportunistic politicians are just using the guise of animal welfare to further make clear that they are against muslim customs.
The pvdd came with this who has also already improved animal rights on many other fronts here in the Netherlands.
But sure, throw it on the ''anti muslim views''... typical...
Ps you know the city next to the 1 i live not that long ago a ''sheep'' from a hobby farmer (aka just some guy who has a few animals in his field and takes good care of them) was found dead and everything eatable was taken off and they just let the rest lay there for this poor man to find it... guess who did that?
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Netherlands19141 Posts
On July 01 2011 18:13 redux46 wrote:
There's a rising trend of anti-muslim views across Europe (especially Holland) in the past few years. Opportunistic politicians are just using the guise of animal welfare to further make clear that they are against muslim customs.
What a joke, it's an initiative from the animal wellfare party. On top of that, it's funny that muslims feel themselves singled out while it is an anti foreign influences movement in general that has been devellopping across Europe in response to immigrating cultures which have no interest in integrating themselves in the nations existing culture. The fact that more then half of our youth prison and reeducation facilities are populated by youths comming from a group not making up more then 2% of the entire population should give some signal why you can discern growing discontent with certain minorities.
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This is sooo simple:
There are rules for slaughtering Animals in many countries, EXACT rules...
Halal/Kosher does not confirm to these rules, therefore it's not allowed.
It has nothing to do with anti muslim or anything, it's just a law, laws > traditions/religions.
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On July 01 2011 18:13 redux46 wrote:
There's a rising trend of anti-muslim views across Europe (especially Holland) in the past few years. Opportunistic politicians are just using the guise of animal welfare to further make clear that they are against muslim customs.
You are really desperate to make this about muslim oppression ain't you.
Too bad the animal-party proposed this change. But incase that just shattered your world you may carry on and pretend that the animal party has a hardline anti-muslim stance.
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On July 01 2011 18:29 Nyovne wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2011 18:13 redux46 wrote:
There's a rising trend of anti-muslim views across Europe (especially Holland) in the past few years. Opportunistic politicians are just using the guise of animal welfare to further make clear that they are against muslim customs. What a joke, it's an initiative from the animal wellfare party. On top of that, it's funny that muslims feel themselves singled out while it is an anti foreign influences movement in general that has been devellopping across Europe in response to immigrating cultures which have no interest in integrating themselves in the nations existing culture. The fact that more then half of our youth prison and reeducation facilities are populated by youths comming from a group not making up more then 2% of the entire population should give some signal why you can discern growing discontent with certain minorities.
You, my good sir, is the danger of a free western society, not 15 year old immigrants.
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On July 01 2011 18:49 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2011 18:13 redux46 wrote:
There's a rising trend of anti-muslim views across Europe (especially Holland) in the past few years. Opportunistic politicians are just using the guise of animal welfare to further make clear that they are against muslim customs. You are really desperate to make this about muslim oppression ain't you. Too bad the animal-party proposed this change. But incase that just shattered your world you may carry on and pretend that the animal party has a hardline anti-muslim stance.
No, it is just ignorance, there are german studies for 30 years ago that show that traditional butchering is worse than halal/kosher butchering. Game/set/match.
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The animal party holds roughly 1% of seats in government. They have zero ability to pass laws and like my original comment made clear, have had their likely sincere beliefs against halal/kosher butchery used by the opportunistic politicians to again show voters that they are against muslim customs.
It's just a giant coincidence that the positions of the animal party that would adversely affect Dutch farmers are totally ignored but their position affecting muslims is picked up by the likes of Geert Wilders, who was less than 5% votes shy of winning the last election.
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On July 01 2011 19:17 redux46 wrote:
The animal party holds roughly 1% of seats in government. They have zero ability to pass laws and like my original comment made clear, have had their likely sincere beliefs against halal/kosher butchery used by the opportunistic politicians to again show voters that they are against muslim customs.
It's just a giant coincidence that the positions of the animal party that would adversely affect Dutch farmers are totally ignored but their position affecting muslims is picked up by the likes of Geert Wilders, who was less than 5% votes shy of winning the last election.
Well sure Geert Wilders will take any opportunity, but that doesn't mean the rest of the party's do that and that this whole thing is some ''anti muslim'' campaign, cause it simply ain't.
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This thread is hilarious.
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Where is the option: It really retarded that someone would care how you kill an animal when more then half the population of this planet does not afford to buy enough meat for a healthy diet... ?
Im just sain.
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EPT
