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Banning halal/kosher butchering - Page 36

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iLose4u
Profile Joined June 2011
Sweden24 Posts
June 30 2011 22:15 GMT
#701
To be honest I do not really understand how a comparison between the nazi concentration camps and the butchering of animalis is a valid one, and I have yet to see a compelling argument to make the comparisen slightly more reasonable.

To begin with, I think it's fair to say that all morality does (or at least should) be focused on the wellbeing of conscious beings, as well as their potential for distress and unhappiness. Needless to say, if animals were like robots and unable to feel pain or distress one would certainly not object to mistreating them or slaughtering them in horrific ways. However, it is probable beyond reasonal doubt that mammalian animals DO feel pain and can indeed feel somewhat sad. I can't possibly think of any non-sociopathic pet owner objecting to such an obvious statement.

The reasonable question followed by the ethical premise of minimizing suffering is "How do we do it?" We can certainly distinguish between a great deal of pain and lesser pain, so a less painful way to slaughter an animal is preferrable. This is still true and reasonable even if you are not an ethical vegetarian. The argument would be something like: "I like meat and therefore support the industry, but I don't want the animals to suffer more than is absolutely necessary."

We do not have to be absolutists to avoid being hypocrites, but my concern with the meat industry is that so many of the animals actually suffer a great deal before dying. Were this not the case, imagine animals living in harmony to the very day they were slaughtered in the most humane way possible- could we object to this if we only consider the wellbeing of animals. I don't think so.
Not attacking your opponent is generally not a viable strategy.
LeCastor
Profile Joined July 2010
France234 Posts
June 30 2011 23:00 GMT
#702
Animals suffer more from the stun.

Did you see videos with stun ? It's fucking disgusting. Cows are in fact partially stun, and they feel the pain when they are cut alive.

I think that they suffer less with direct neck slaughter.

If i were sentenced to death i would choose the guillotine, no doubt about that. The injections to make you sleep, just don't work as they should !
Bigpet
Profile Joined July 2010
Germany533 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-01 00:47:36
June 30 2011 23:23 GMT
#703
This OP doesn't lend itself at all to a good discussion.

The poll is really beyond misdirected. It asks what is more important "Animal wellfare" or "Jewish and Muslim traditions". First of all "Animal Wellfare" as a description for "subjectively more humane killing of a being that you want to devour" is kind of stretching semantics. Also the second option should read "religious traditions" since it really shouldn't make a difference which religions we are talking about here. There is just so much bias in the question.

Edit:
gosuMalicE sums up what I would expect a better OP to look like.
On July 01 2011 06:35 gosuMalicE wrote:
Poll: This poll has better options.

Allowing humane halal/kosher butchering. (14)
 
70%

Disallowing halal/kosher butchering because I beleive it is not humane. (3)
 
15%

I am a vegitarian/vegan and am against butchering of animals in general. (3)
 
15%

20 total votes

Your vote: This poll has better options.

(Vote): Allowing humane halal/kosher butchering.
(Vote): Disallowing halal/kosher butchering because I beleive it is not humane.
(Vote): I am a vegitarian/vegan and am against butchering of animals in general.



How about a less biased poll.

I'm NOT the caster with a similar nick
Rabbitmaster
Profile Joined August 2010
1357 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-01 00:00:48
July 01 2011 00:00 GMT
#704
@diggurd

I assume you mean the novel by Nietzsche from where i got my signature quote? I actually have not read it yet, but it is on my "to-read" list. Whats your point?
God is dead.
Eknoid4
Profile Joined October 2010
United States902 Posts
July 01 2011 04:28 GMT
#705
You should change the 2nd answer to be "religious traditions" to get people's REAL opinions and how many christians only voted A because they aren't interested in jews or muslims.
If you're mad that someone else is brazenly trumpeting their beliefs with ignorance, perhaps you should be mad that you are doing it too.
Usul
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany150 Posts
July 01 2011 07:22 GMT
#706
On July 01 2011 06:30 diggurd wrote:
@usul:

i am sorry but i dont think you need to dig a little deeper.

lets say you are a veal. your whole life, which is 5 months, you have been placed in a little cell, tied up so you cant sit or move (your meat will be tenderer). when the time comes for your death, youll get a different set of options - would you give the butcher some karma points if you chose the least painful method?



Its not about karma points. Its about pain. Yes, I still would prefer the less painfull ending, thank you. And I dont think treating animals like you describe here is allowed in the Netherlands (I know it it not in Germany).
Sypher23
Profile Joined July 2010
Australia63 Posts
July 01 2011 09:05 GMT
#707
They way they do the slaughtering over here is knock them out, but it has to be done by a Muslim they pray to it, then they cut it a certain way, then we ship to the Western world.
redux46
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada92 Posts
July 01 2011 09:13 GMT
#708
There's a rising trend of anti-muslim views across Europe (especially Holland) in the past few years. Opportunistic politicians are just using the guise of animal welfare to further make clear that they are against muslim customs.
Technique
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands1542 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-01 09:33:26
July 01 2011 09:23 GMT
#709
On July 01 2011 18:13 redux46 wrote:
There's a rising trend of anti-muslim views across Europe (especially Holland) in the past few years. Opportunistic politicians are just using the guise of animal welfare to further make clear that they are against muslim customs.

The pvdd came with this who has also already improved animal rights on many other fronts here in the Netherlands.

But sure, throw it on the ''anti muslim views''... typical...

Ps you know the city next to the 1 i live not that long ago a ''sheep'' from a hobby farmer (aka just some guy who has a few animals in his field and takes good care of them) was found dead and everything eatable was taken off and they just let the rest lay there for this poor man to find it... guess who did that?
If you think you're good, you suck. If you think you suck, you're getting better.
Nyovne
Profile Joined March 2006
Netherlands19135 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-01 09:32:25
July 01 2011 09:29 GMT
#710
On July 01 2011 18:13 redux46 wrote:
There's a rising trend of anti-muslim views across Europe (especially Holland) in the past few years. Opportunistic politicians are just using the guise of animal welfare to further make clear that they are against muslim customs.

What a joke, it's an initiative from the animal wellfare party. On top of that, it's funny that muslims feel themselves singled out while it is an anti foreign influences movement in general that has been devellopping across Europe in response to immigrating cultures which have no interest in integrating themselves in the nations existing culture. The fact that more then half of our youth prison and reeducation facilities are populated by youths comming from a group not making up more then 2% of the entire population should give some signal why you can discern growing discontent with certain minorities.
ModeratorFor remember, that in the end, some are born to live, others born to die. I belong to those last, born to burn, born to cry. For I shall remain alone... forsaken.
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10698 Posts
July 01 2011 09:32 GMT
#711
This is sooo simple:

There are rules for slaughtering Animals in many countries, EXACT rules...

Halal/Kosher does not confirm to these rules, therefore it's not allowed.


It has nothing to do with anti muslim or anything, it's just a law, laws > traditions/religions.
zalz
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Netherlands3704 Posts
July 01 2011 09:49 GMT
#712
On July 01 2011 18:13 redux46 wrote:
There's a rising trend of anti-muslim views across Europe (especially Holland) in the past few years. Opportunistic politicians are just using the guise of animal welfare to further make clear that they are against muslim customs.


You are really desperate to make this about muslim oppression ain't you.

Too bad the animal-party proposed this change. But incase that just shattered your world you may carry on and pretend that the animal party has a hardline anti-muslim stance.
Jokithedruid
Profile Joined April 2011
Sweden74 Posts
July 01 2011 09:50 GMT
#713
On July 01 2011 18:29 Nyovne wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 01 2011 18:13 redux46 wrote:
There's a rising trend of anti-muslim views across Europe (especially Holland) in the past few years. Opportunistic politicians are just using the guise of animal welfare to further make clear that they are against muslim customs.

What a joke, it's an initiative from the animal wellfare party. On top of that, it's funny that muslims feel themselves singled out while it is an anti foreign influences movement in general that has been devellopping across Europe in response to immigrating cultures which have no interest in integrating themselves in the nations existing culture. The fact that more then half of our youth prison and reeducation facilities are populated by youths comming from a group not making up more then 2% of the entire population should give some signal why you can discern growing discontent with certain minorities.


You, my good sir, is the danger of a free western society, not 15 year old immigrants.
Jokithedruid
Profile Joined April 2011
Sweden74 Posts
July 01 2011 09:52 GMT
#714
On July 01 2011 18:49 zalz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 01 2011 18:13 redux46 wrote:
There's a rising trend of anti-muslim views across Europe (especially Holland) in the past few years. Opportunistic politicians are just using the guise of animal welfare to further make clear that they are against muslim customs.


You are really desperate to make this about muslim oppression ain't you.

Too bad the animal-party proposed this change. But incase that just shattered your world you may carry on and pretend that the animal party has a hardline anti-muslim stance.


No, it is just ignorance, there are german studies for 30 years ago that show that traditional butchering is worse than halal/kosher butchering. Game/set/match.
redux46
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada92 Posts
July 01 2011 10:17 GMT
#715
The animal party holds roughly 1% of seats in government. They have zero ability to pass laws and like my original comment made clear, have had their likely sincere beliefs against halal/kosher butchery used by the opportunistic politicians to again show voters that they are against muslim customs.

It's just a giant coincidence that the positions of the animal party that would adversely affect Dutch farmers are totally ignored but their position affecting muslims is picked up by the likes of Geert Wilders, who was less than 5% votes shy of winning the last election.
Technique
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands1542 Posts
July 01 2011 11:35 GMT
#716
On July 01 2011 19:17 redux46 wrote:
The animal party holds roughly 1% of seats in government. They have zero ability to pass laws and like my original comment made clear, have had their likely sincere beliefs against halal/kosher butchery used by the opportunistic politicians to again show voters that they are against muslim customs.

It's just a giant coincidence that the positions of the animal party that would adversely affect Dutch farmers are totally ignored but their position affecting muslims is picked up by the likes of Geert Wilders, who was less than 5% votes shy of winning the last election.

Well sure Geert Wilders will take any opportunity, but that doesn't mean the rest of the party's do that and that this whole thing is some ''anti muslim'' campaign, cause it simply ain't.
If you think you're good, you suck. If you think you suck, you're getting better.
OnebaseroachGG
Profile Joined June 2011
Australia11 Posts
July 01 2011 14:20 GMT
#717
This thread is hilarious.
hax
Aterons_toss
Profile Joined February 2011
Romania1275 Posts
July 01 2011 14:28 GMT
#718
Where is the option: It really retarded that someone would care how you kill an animal when more then half the population of this planet does not afford to buy enough meat for a healthy diet... ?
Im just sain.
A good strategy means leaving your opponent room to make mistakes
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