EPTStrong forms of theism and atheism deal with making claims of knowledge that they don't actually posses, making them similar in that regard.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strong_atheism
Student gets ostracized for refusing to pray - Page 54
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GGTeMpLaR
United States7226 Posts
Strong forms of theism and atheism deal with making claims of knowledge that they don't actually posses, making them similar in that regard. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strong_atheism | ||
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BlackMagister
United States5834 Posts
On May 28 2011 03:37 KoKoRo wrote: It is not a religion because it is a group of people who can be swayed into believing or not believing. As I said, opposite ends of the spectrum are still in the same spectrum. Agnostic would be on the outside looking in. Yet agnostics act very much the same way as religions do claiming their better than everyone else because they're open minded and not fanatical like theists or atheists. Clearly a religion, just one in the middle the plays both sides. And no I'm not being serious, but Kokoro's claims are just ridiculous. The definition of a religion defines what is a religion. Opposing religion does not make you part of a religion. | ||
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Roe
Canada6002 Posts
On May 28 2011 03:38 JiYan wrote: im pretty sure Christians believe in science and logic too. saying that atheists are the only believers in science and logic is basically saying every religion is illogical; which, while you might think is true, is kind of insulting to every religious person. atheists believe that the world was always in existence and there was never a creator or 'God'. Science and logic doesnt really define the belief. Usually in a debate we're trying to find out what's true, not what's insulting or inoffensive. | ||
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KoKoRo
United States186 Posts
On May 28 2011 03:33 DoubleReed wrote: Holy crap, man, and you're saying atheists are the ones starting shit? You're telling atheists that they're a religion on an internet forum and arguing with a bunch of people you don't know. Ok. | ||
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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Olinim
4044 Posts
On May 28 2011 03:41 Barrin wrote: I wish we could get this settled... Atheism = The belief that god(s) do(es) not exist Agnosticism = The lack of belief in the existence or nonexistence of god, due to lack of knowledge. Theism = The belief that god(s) do(es) exist These aren't right either, and there are many forms of agnosticism. | ||
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GGTeMpLaR
United States7226 Posts
On May 28 2011 03:41 BlackMagister wrote: Yet agnostics act very much the same way as religions do claiming their better than everyone else because they're open minded and not fanatical like theists or atheists. Clearly a religion, just one in the middle the plays both sides. Agnostics go around claiming they're better than everyone else? That's news to me. Agnosticism really has nothing to do with being open-minded either, it's admitting ignorance on an issue that no one clearly has proof for either way. You wouldn't say for certain "the universe is finite/infinite in time" because we cannot know for certain at this point in time. It's just accepting the limitations of current human knowledge. | ||
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On May 28 2011 03:37 KoKoRo wrote: It is not a religion because it is a group of people who can be swayed into believing or not believing. As I said, opposite ends of the spectrum are still in the same spectrum. Agnostic would be on the outside looking in. There is no "spectrum" to begin with. People believe different things. There are Hindus, Christians, Jews, Muslims etc. etc. and all religions completely disagree with different aspects of their religion. It's not like I believe more than you and you believe more than the next guy. Many people don't know what they believe. That's perfectly fine. People's beliefs are not that simple to be put on a one-dimensional little line. You are no more special than atheists just because you disagree with them. | ||
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GGTeMpLaR
United States7226 Posts
On May 28 2011 03:41 Barrin wrote: I wish we could get this settled... Atheism = The belief that god(s) do(es) not exist Agnosticism = The lack of belief in the existence or nonexistence of god, due to lack of knowledge. Theism = The belief that god(s) do(es) exist Agnosticism doesn't necessarily have anything to do with belief. Your general definitions of theism/atheism are correct though. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/agnostic –noun 1. a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as god, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience. Just because one lacks knowledge does not mean they must suspend all forms of belief, which is rather difficult as one is almost always inclined to believe one way or the other despite the fact that they do not know for certain whether their belief is true or not. | ||
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BlackMagister
United States5834 Posts
On May 28 2011 03:44 GGTeMpLaR wrote: Agnostics go around claiming they're better than everyone else? That's news to me. Agnosticism really has nothing to do with being open-minded either, it's admitting ignorance on an issue that no one clearly has proof for either way. You wouldn't say for certain "the universe is finite/infinite in time" because we cannot know for certain at this point in time. It's just accepting the limitations of current human knowledge. I'm not saying this, I'm merely parroting Kokoro's points, part of which is claiming atheists are fanatical. He used anecdotal evidence about his friend showing him atheists video to "prove" atheists are just as bad as fanatical believers. | ||
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Psycosquirrel
United States161 Posts
I can't condone the harassment this student has suffered, but I really feel he brought it upon himself. If you don't want to pray, then don't pray. I honestly don't have any problem with a student body wanting to pray, even if its at a graduation and supported by the school system.. If this student wanted the prayer canceled, why not talk to the student body and see if they want it canceled? It obviously seems like they wanted to have the prayer, and I'm sure he knew that. So he instead threatens to contact the ACLU about it. To quote part of the article: "Because the majority of students want an unconstitutional prayer at their graduation, therefore they're in the right. Because nobody's ever had the courage to speak up about this before, therefore the law was not being broken, and everything was okay." Yeah, I think everything is ok. The choice of the word "courage" is just the writer drumming up his cause. More likely, no one else felt like interfering with his/her classmates graduation by getting this prayer canceled. In conclusion, everyone needed to chill the heck out, starting with Mr. Fowler. | ||
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KoKoRo
United States186 Posts
On May 28 2011 03:39 Roe wrote: The underlined is a much more accurate statement of atheism, I'd say. Except it's not. Don't edit what I say. | ||
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Leporello
United States2845 Posts
On May 28 2011 03:33 KoKoRo wrote: The bold part sums up what I'm trying to say. It's because I'm agnostic. I'm for and against believing there is a God if I am presented proof. As Atheists see as a, "There is no God because there is no proof." and Religious people see it as, "There is a God because there is no proof that is isn't a God." Quit screwing up the English language with your cowardice. You're either theist, or atheist. Agnosticism is a seperate issue. You either believe there is a god, or you don't. There is no inbetween. Somewhere in life, you've formed an opinion on the matter. If your neighbor told you he caught a shark in his fishing trip last weekend - you either believe him or you don't. To say "I don't know", isn't an answer, it's a statement of the obvious. The question is what do you believe. Pretty much EVERYONE, atheists and theists, are agnostic. Very few people claim to "know" the ultimate truth. The question when it comes to theism/atheism is what do you believe. If you're too afraid to answer the question, or you simply don't want to, just say so. But saying "agnosticism" is utterly meaningless. I guess it's possible that you truly have no opinion one way or the other when it comes to creation, but that says a lot about your imagination and intellectual prowess (or lack thereof). | ||
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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Ziktomini
United Kingdom377 Posts
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Olinim
4044 Posts
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synapse
China13814 Posts
On May 28 2011 03:44 GGTeMpLaR wrote: Agnostics go around claiming they're better than everyone else? That's news to me. Agnosticism really has nothing to do with being open-minded either, it's admitting ignorance on an issue that no one clearly has proof for either way. You wouldn't say for certain "the universe is finite/infinite in time" because we cannot know for certain at this point in time. It's just accepting the limitations of current human knowledge. To be fair, nearly every "atheist" could be defined as an "agnostic atheist" -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism ... It is rare to find an atheist who is fully certain of a lack of a god. | ||
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GGTeMpLaR
United States7226 Posts
On May 28 2011 03:46 BlackMagister wrote: I'm not saying this, I'm merely parroting Kokoro's points, part of which is claiming atheists are fanatical. He used anecdotal evidence about his friend showing him atheists video to "prove" atheists are just as bad as fanatical believers. Well fanatic/militant atheists are just as bad as fanatic/fundamentalist theists in that they both generalize entire groups of people as wrong just because they share different beliefs than themselves. I would like to think that the majority of atheists and theists are much more moderate though and capable of getting along just fine. | ||
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tdynasty
Canada220 Posts
First of all: The kid was wrong in trying to get the prayer cancelled. (As an Atheist it's not our place to abolish religion, nor is it to tell people they should respect our perspective on the universe by taking not practising religion around us) Too me that's just ignorant period. And the community who threatened him, is equally as wrong if anything even more ironically immoral. Americans have this absolutely screwed up point of view as to what being religious is. Being Catholic or beleiving jesus was the son of god, usualy implies that you would follow his teachings. In this case, this is just silly child like bullying. Religion is not worth any Atheist time. The whole point of atheism is to believe you're mind has evolved past the point of earthly illogical rationalizations. And to acknowledge that religion is of our own doing, comes from our knowledge base, and therefore is not irrelevant but simply mislead and outdated. And this specifically depicts Americanism. This also points out that Atheism is not a single group of people you can make specific associations with. Perspective of reality is much more complex then just giving yourself a label and believing what other's say. Everyone involved in this incident in my mind is Silly, hypocritical, and isn't worth being reasoned with. | ||
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