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On May 28 2011 03:46 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 03:41 Barrin wrote:
I wish we could get this settled...
Atheism = The belief that god(s) do(es) not exist
Agnosticism = The lack of belief in the existence or nonexistence of god, due to lack of knowledge.
Theism = The belief that god(s) do(es) exist Agnosticism doesn't necessarily have anything to do with belief. Your general definitions of theism/atheism are correct though. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/agnostic–noun 1. a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as god, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience. Just because one lacks knowledge does not mean they must suspend all forms of belief, which is rather difficult as one is almost always inclined to believe one way or the other despite the fact that they do not know for certain whether their belief is true or not.
Yes, I was having an argument earlier with a guy who claimed he didn't know if he believed or not, and despite my best efforts I couldn't convince him of this, it seems to me Kokoro is much the same.
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On May 28 2011 03:41 Barrin wrote:
I wish we could get this settled...
Atheism = The belief that god(s) do(es) not exist
Agnosticism = The lack of belief in the existence or nonexistence of god, due to lack of knowledge.
Theism = The belief that god(s) do(es) exist
I thought you had understood it when you made that awesome graphic, but I guess you didn't 
Olinim is right. There are different types of agnosticism. These are very volatile concepts that are often used differently. Most of the time people just label themselves what they think fits their own definition. But many people disagree with these definitions.
There are many atheists who label themselves as agnostics. There are many theists who label themselves as agnostics. Personally, I consider myself an atheist. But my dad thinks I'm agnostic on his definition. And he thinks himself as an agnostic, while I think he is an atheist.
There's no single global consensus of what an agnostic is. Technically, all of science is agnostic in the sense that you can never be 100% sure of anything. But most of us consider that things that has a lot of evidence going for it as true for simple practical reasons.
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On May 28 2011 03:37 KoKoRo wrote:
It is not a religion because it is a group of people who can be swayed into believing or not believing.
As I said, opposite ends of the spectrum are still in the same spectrum. Agnostic would be on the outside looking in.
Atheists are amenable to evidence, but believe there exists none for what is actually a surprisingly huge number of extraordinary supernatural claims. Compare this to a religious person, who might use words like "I believe I am redeemed by my savior because I have faith," which is antithetical to inductive reasoning (evidence). This is why atheism is not a religion.
Some agnostics say that since the answer is unknowable or unresolved, there's a chance that there might be one or many true cosmogonies proposed by humans (like Yahweh and so on). Other agnostics say there's no evidence at all for any god who was named by man, but won't call themselves atheists because they mistakenly believe atheists refuse to examine evidence or arguments for the existence of any number of deities. Meanwhile, carefree atheists, having read everything from Leviticus to Hume, also reject inadequate/pathetic evidence given by faiths for their supernatural claims as well as dismantling philosophical arguments for deism/etc. which don't resonate for them.
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On May 28 2011 03:50 tdynasty wrote:
So many silly replies.
First of all: The kid was wrong in trying to get the prayer cancelled. (As an Atheist it's not our place to abolish religion, nor is it to tell people they should respect our perspective on the universe by taking not practising religion around us) Too me that's just ignorant period.
And the community who threatened him, is equally as wrong if anything even more ironically immoral. Americans have this absolutely screwed up point of view as to what being religious is.
Being Catholic or beleiving jesus was the son of god, usualy implies that you would follow his teachings. In this case, this is just silly child like bullying.
Religion is not worth any Atheist time. The whole point of atheism is to believe you're mind has evolved past the point of earthly illogical rationalizations. And to acknowledge that religion is of our own doing, comes from our knowledge base, and therefore is not irrelevant but simply mislead and outdated.
And this specifically depicts Americanism.
This also points out that Atheism is not a single group of people you can make specific associations with.
Perspective of reality is much more complex then just giving yourself a label and believing what other's say.
Everyone involved in this incident in my mind is Silly, hypocritical, and isn't worth being reasoned with.
He wasn't abolishing religion he was trying to stop government sanctioned praying which is unconstitutional and illegal, big difference.
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On May 28 2011 03:49 synapse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 03:44 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On May 28 2011 03:41 BlackMagister wrote:On May 28 2011 03:37 KoKoRo wrote:On May 28 2011 03:32 BlackMagister wrote:On May 28 2011 03:28 KoKoRo wrote:On May 28 2011 03:26 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Atheists deny Gods like they deny the fact they're a religion. I find that laughable too. I'll start believing Atheists aren't a religion when they stop forcing their views down the throats of people who are religious. Especially that Amazing Atheist guy on Youtube which my Atheist friend forces me to watch every time I come over. Does he piss you Atheists off as much as he does to me?
Just because you completely fail to understand the definition of "religion" and therefore use the term incorrectly doesn't mean that Atheism is a religion. Atheists still haven't proven to me why it's not a religion. All I've gotten so far was a, "Atheism isn't a religion like not doing something is doing something." Basically vocal Atheists just don't want to be considered crazy is all I'm getting. Ok maybe we should put it this way. Is Agnosticism a religion? If not why? It is not a religion because it is a group of people who can be swayed into believing or not believing. As I said, opposite ends of the spectrum are still in the same spectrum. Agnostic would be on the outside looking in. Yet agnostics act very much the same way as religions do claiming their better than everyone else because they're open minded and not fanatical like theists or atheists. Clearly a religion, just one in the middle the plays both sides. Agnostics go around claiming they're better than everyone else? That's news to me. Agnosticism really has nothing to do with being open-minded either, it's admitting ignorance on an issue that no one clearly has proof for either way. You wouldn't say for certain "the universe is finite/infinite in time" because we cannot know for certain at this point in time. It's just accepting the limitations of current human knowledge. To be fair, nearly every "atheist" could be defined as an "agnostic atheist" -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism ... It is rare to find an atheist who is fully certain of a lack of a god.
Oh yea, I acknowledge that completely and even said that agnosticism is compatible with forms of atheism/theism about 30 posts ago in this thread.
It makes perfect sense but most people I've met seem to get caught up on having an identity associated with one word, be it a Christian who "has faith in God without knowing" and would still deny being agnostic, or an Atheist who "believe God doesn't exist but admits they don't know for certain".
Edit: That Venn Diagram above me sums it up pretty nicely though.
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On May 28 2011 03:49 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 03:46 BlackMagister wrote:On May 28 2011 03:44 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
Agnostics go around claiming they're better than everyone else? That's news to me.
Agnosticism really has nothing to do with being open-minded either, it's admitting ignorance on an issue that no one clearly has proof for either way.
You wouldn't say for certain "the universe is finite/infinite in time" because we cannot know for certain at this point in time. It's just accepting the limitations of current human knowledge. I'm not saying this, I'm merely parroting Kokoro's points, part of which is claiming atheists are fanatical. He used anecdotal evidence about his friend showing him atheists video to "prove" atheists are just as bad as fanatical believers. Well fanatic/militant atheists are just as bad as fanatic/fundamentalist theists in that they both generalize entire groups of people as wrong just because they share different beliefs than themselves. I would like to think that the majority of atheists and theists are much more moderate though and capable of getting along just fine.
But there is one big difference. Fanatic/militant atheist do bad stuff - end of story. Fanatic/militant Theist do bad stuff - and tell people it is "ok" or "right" because they were told so by someone above. And this drives me mad, cuz a lot of people buy it and get infected by it.
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On May 28 2011 03:52 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 03:49 synapse wrote:On May 28 2011 03:44 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On May 28 2011 03:41 BlackMagister wrote:On May 28 2011 03:37 KoKoRo wrote:On May 28 2011 03:32 BlackMagister wrote:On May 28 2011 03:28 KoKoRo wrote:On May 28 2011 03:26 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Atheists deny Gods like they deny the fact they're a religion. I find that laughable too. I'll start believing Atheists aren't a religion when they stop forcing their views down the throats of people who are religious. Especially that Amazing Atheist guy on Youtube which my Atheist friend forces me to watch every time I come over. Does he piss you Atheists off as much as he does to me?
Just because you completely fail to understand the definition of "religion" and therefore use the term incorrectly doesn't mean that Atheism is a religion. Atheists still haven't proven to me why it's not a religion. All I've gotten so far was a, "Atheism isn't a religion like not doing something is doing something." Basically vocal Atheists just don't want to be considered crazy is all I'm getting. Ok maybe we should put it this way. Is Agnosticism a religion? If not why? It is not a religion because it is a group of people who can be swayed into believing or not believing. As I said, opposite ends of the spectrum are still in the same spectrum. Agnostic would be on the outside looking in. Yet agnostics act very much the same way as religions do claiming their better than everyone else because they're open minded and not fanatical like theists or atheists. Clearly a religion, just one in the middle the plays both sides. Agnostics go around claiming they're better than everyone else? That's news to me. Agnosticism really has nothing to do with being open-minded either, it's admitting ignorance on an issue that no one clearly has proof for either way. You wouldn't say for certain "the universe is finite/infinite in time" because we cannot know for certain at this point in time. It's just accepting the limitations of current human knowledge. To be fair, nearly every "atheist" could be defined as an "agnostic atheist" -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism ... It is rare to find an atheist who is fully certain of a lack of a god. Oh yea, I acknowledge that completely and even said that agnosticism is compatible with forms of atheism/theism about 30 posts ago in this thread. It makes perfect sense but most people I've met seem to get caught up on having an identity associated with one word, be it a Christian who "has faith in God without knowing" and would still deny being agnostic, or an Atheist who "believe God doesn't exist but admits they don't know for certain". Edit: That Venn Diagram above me sums it up pretty nicely though.
To that point, I think we've all agreed that religion = religion, and atheism and agnosticism != religion. I wonder where KoKoRo went.
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I cannot fathom why after 55 pages people still think that a citizen of a country trying to uphold the laws of said country is somehow in the wrong.
The school prayer was illegal. What the parents did when they imprisoned him is illegal. Death threats were illegal. The leaking of his name to the press wasn't illegal but was extremely douchy. The school going ahead and having the prayer while stopping people from leaving was illegal.
In all of this story the only hero was the kid who stood up - yes courageously stood up - for what is right.
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On May 28 2011 03:50 tdynasty wrote:
So many silly replies.
First of all: The kid was wrong in trying to get the prayer cancelled. (As an Atheist it's not our place to abolish religion, nor is it to tell people they should respect our perspective on the universe by taking not practising religion around us) Too me that's just ignorant period.
As an American, moreso than as an Atheist, it absolutely is my business to abolish religion from government-run institutions to which we demand all our children attend.
Absolutely, and plainly.
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On May 28 2011 03:47 Leporello wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 03:33 KoKoRo wrote:On May 28 2011 03:27 DoubleReed wrote:On May 28 2011 03:25 KoKoRo wrote:On May 28 2011 03:23 DoubleReed wrote:Atheists deny Gods like they deny the fact they're a religion. I find that laughable too. I'll start believing Atheists aren't a religion when they stop forcing their views down the throats of people who are religious. Especially that Amazing Atheist guy on Youtube which my Atheist friend forces me to watch every time I come over. Does he piss you Atheists off as much as he does to me? Uhm. Atheism is a religion because a lot of them are jerks? What? They do just about everything a normal religion would do. They just want to be special and say they aren't. Except going to churches/synagogues/mosques, praying, and belief in a supernatural power I agree. Atheists are just like religious people other than those things.This is really confusing. You seem to be defining religion by all the horrible stuff that religion does. And yet you're defending religion? I'm just really confused about what you're trying to say. Is it just "Atheists are fucking assholes and I'm sick of hearing about them"? Because just because some atheists are jerks doesn't mean all of them are, and I'm sorry that you've gotten such a bad impression of them. The bold part sums up what I'm trying to say. It's because I'm agnostic. I'm for and against believing there is a God if I am presented proof. As Atheists see as a, "There is no God because there is no proof." and Religious people see it as, "There is a God because there is no proof that is isn't a God." Quit screwing up the English language with your cowardice. You're either theist, or atheist. Agnosticism is a seperate issue. You either believe there is a god, or you don't. There is no inbetween. Somewhere in life, you've formed an opinion on the matter. If your neighbor told you he caught a shark in his fishing trip last weekend - you either believe him or you don't. To say "I don't know", isn't an answer, it's a statement of the obvious. The question is what do you believe. Pretty much EVERYONE, atheists and theists, are agnostic. Very few people claim to "know" the ultimate truth. The question when it comes to theism/atheism is what do you believe. If you're too afraid to answer the question, or you simply don't want to, just say so. But saying "agnosticism" is utterly meaningless. I guess it's possible that you truly have no opinion one way or the other when it comes to creation, but that says a lot about your imagination and intellectual prowess (or lack thereof).
I don't speak English. I speak American. :Herp derp American-English:
Or as a thinking person you'd ask for proof that your neighbor caught a shark if they have doubt, whether it be picture form or other. There are many type of sharks and catching sharks isn't uncommon or impossible.
I'm afraid to answer a question to which I do not have an answer to. If I had an answer to if God exists or doesn't I'd give it. But I do not, so there's no reason for me to give one. If someone were to present to me that God exists I will either accept it or deny it based on how much of it I can see being true.
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On May 28 2011 03:41 Roe wrote:
Usually in a debate we're trying to find out what's true, not what's insulting or inoffensive.
just trying to keep the debate civil. this thread isnt meant to offend anyone but just discuss the issue. if people are being offensive - they shouldnt, regardless if theyre debating or not.
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On May 28 2011 03:53 zul wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 03:49 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On May 28 2011 03:46 BlackMagister wrote:On May 28 2011 03:44 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
Agnostics go around claiming they're better than everyone else? That's news to me.
Agnosticism really has nothing to do with being open-minded either, it's admitting ignorance on an issue that no one clearly has proof for either way.
You wouldn't say for certain "the universe is finite/infinite in time" because we cannot know for certain at this point in time. It's just accepting the limitations of current human knowledge. I'm not saying this, I'm merely parroting Kokoro's points, part of which is claiming atheists are fanatical. He used anecdotal evidence about his friend showing him atheists video to "prove" atheists are just as bad as fanatical believers. Well fanatic/militant atheists are just as bad as fanatic/fundamentalist theists in that they both generalize entire groups of people as wrong just because they share different beliefs than themselves. I would like to think that the majority of atheists and theists are much more moderate though and capable of getting along just fine. But there is one big difference. Fanatic/militant atheist do bad stuff - end of story. Fanatic/militant Theist do bad stuff - and tell people it is "ok" or "right" because they were told so by someone above. And this drives me mad, cuz a lot of people buy it and get infected by it.
Well the majority of the time anyone does anything wrong, they most likely believe it is right due to psychological traps people can easily fall into that incline them to justify their actions.
I don't think there are large numbers of people who are just malevolent, it seems much more likely that average people are just easily swayed to do wrong things by both external circumstances and internal motivations.
Would it bother you as much if a militant/fanatic atheist claimed an evil voice in their head told them to act the way they did? If not you're probably just caught up on the identities of theism/atheism.
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On May 28 2011 03:57 KoKoRo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 03:47 Leporello wrote:On May 28 2011 03:33 KoKoRo wrote:On May 28 2011 03:27 DoubleReed wrote:On May 28 2011 03:25 KoKoRo wrote:On May 28 2011 03:23 DoubleReed wrote:Atheists deny Gods like they deny the fact they're a religion. I find that laughable too. I'll start believing Atheists aren't a religion when they stop forcing their views down the throats of people who are religious. Especially that Amazing Atheist guy on Youtube which my Atheist friend forces me to watch every time I come over. Does he piss you Atheists off as much as he does to me? Uhm. Atheism is a religion because a lot of them are jerks? What? They do just about everything a normal religion would do. They just want to be special and say they aren't. Except going to churches/synagogues/mosques, praying, and belief in a supernatural power I agree. Atheists are just like religious people other than those things.This is really confusing. You seem to be defining religion by all the horrible stuff that religion does. And yet you're defending religion? I'm just really confused about what you're trying to say. Is it just "Atheists are fucking assholes and I'm sick of hearing about them"? Because just because some atheists are jerks doesn't mean all of them are, and I'm sorry that you've gotten such a bad impression of them. The bold part sums up what I'm trying to say. It's because I'm agnostic. I'm for and against believing there is a God if I am presented proof. As Atheists see as a, "There is no God because there is no proof." and Religious people see it as, "There is a God because there is no proof that is isn't a God." Quit screwing up the English language with your cowardice. You're either theist, or atheist. Agnosticism is a seperate issue. You either believe there is a god, or you don't. There is no inbetween. Somewhere in life, you've formed an opinion on the matter. If your neighbor told you he caught a shark in his fishing trip last weekend - you either believe him or you don't. To say "I don't know", isn't an answer, it's a statement of the obvious. The question is what do you believe. Pretty much EVERYONE, atheists and theists, are agnostic. Very few people claim to "know" the ultimate truth. The question when it comes to theism/atheism is what do you believe. If you're too afraid to answer the question, or you simply don't want to, just say so. But saying "agnosticism" is utterly meaningless. I guess it's possible that you truly have no opinion one way or the other when it comes to creation, but that says a lot about your imagination and intellectual prowess (or lack thereof). I don't speak English. I speak American. :Herp derp American-English: Or as a thinking person you'd ask for proof that your neighbor caught a shark if they have doubt, whether it be picture form or other. There are many type of sharks and catching sharks isn't uncommon or impossible. I'm afraid to answer a question to which I do not have an answer to. If I had an answer to if God exists or doesn't I'd give it. But I do not, so there's no reason for me to give one. If someone were to present to me that God exists I will either accept it or deny it based on how much of it I can see being true.
Noone is necessarily asking for your answer. Leporello's point is that you must have an opinion of some kind regarding the existence of God (either you're an agnostic atheist or an agnostic theist).
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On May 28 2011 03:56 synapse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 03:52 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On May 28 2011 03:49 synapse wrote:On May 28 2011 03:44 GGTeMpLaR wrote:On May 28 2011 03:41 BlackMagister wrote:On May 28 2011 03:37 KoKoRo wrote:On May 28 2011 03:32 BlackMagister wrote:On May 28 2011 03:28 KoKoRo wrote:On May 28 2011 03:26 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Atheists deny Gods like they deny the fact they're a religion. I find that laughable too. I'll start believing Atheists aren't a religion when they stop forcing their views down the throats of people who are religious. Especially that Amazing Atheist guy on Youtube which my Atheist friend forces me to watch every time I come over. Does he piss you Atheists off as much as he does to me?
Just because you completely fail to understand the definition of "religion" and therefore use the term incorrectly doesn't mean that Atheism is a religion. Atheists still haven't proven to me why it's not a religion. All I've gotten so far was a, "Atheism isn't a religion like not doing something is doing something." Basically vocal Atheists just don't want to be considered crazy is all I'm getting. Ok maybe we should put it this way. Is Agnosticism a religion? If not why? It is not a religion because it is a group of people who can be swayed into believing or not believing. As I said, opposite ends of the spectrum are still in the same spectrum. Agnostic would be on the outside looking in. Yet agnostics act very much the same way as religions do claiming their better than everyone else because they're open minded and not fanatical like theists or atheists. Clearly a religion, just one in the middle the plays both sides. Agnostics go around claiming they're better than everyone else? That's news to me. Agnosticism really has nothing to do with being open-minded either, it's admitting ignorance on an issue that no one clearly has proof for either way. You wouldn't say for certain "the universe is finite/infinite in time" because we cannot know for certain at this point in time. It's just accepting the limitations of current human knowledge. To be fair, nearly every "atheist" could be defined as an "agnostic atheist" -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism ... It is rare to find an atheist who is fully certain of a lack of a god. Oh yea, I acknowledge that completely and even said that agnosticism is compatible with forms of atheism/theism about 30 posts ago in this thread. It makes perfect sense but most people I've met seem to get caught up on having an identity associated with one word, be it a Christian who "has faith in God without knowing" and would still deny being agnostic, or an Atheist who "believe God doesn't exist but admits they don't know for certain". Edit: That Venn Diagram above me sums it up pretty nicely though. To that point, I think we've all agreed that religion = religion, and atheism and agnosticism != religion. I wonder where KoKoRo went.
Still here bro.
On May 28 2011 03:58 synapse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 03:57 KoKoRo wrote:On May 28 2011 03:47 Leporello wrote:On May 28 2011 03:33 KoKoRo wrote:On May 28 2011 03:27 DoubleReed wrote:On May 28 2011 03:25 KoKoRo wrote:On May 28 2011 03:23 DoubleReed wrote:Atheists deny Gods like they deny the fact they're a religion. I find that laughable too. I'll start believing Atheists aren't a religion when they stop forcing their views down the throats of people who are religious. Especially that Amazing Atheist guy on Youtube which my Atheist friend forces me to watch every time I come over. Does he piss you Atheists off as much as he does to me? Uhm. Atheism is a religion because a lot of them are jerks? What? They do just about everything a normal religion would do. They just want to be special and say they aren't. Except going to churches/synagogues/mosques, praying, and belief in a supernatural power I agree. Atheists are just like religious people other than those things.This is really confusing. You seem to be defining religion by all the horrible stuff that religion does. And yet you're defending religion? I'm just really confused about what you're trying to say. Is it just "Atheists are fucking assholes and I'm sick of hearing about them"? Because just because some atheists are jerks doesn't mean all of them are, and I'm sorry that you've gotten such a bad impression of them. The bold part sums up what I'm trying to say. It's because I'm agnostic. I'm for and against believing there is a God if I am presented proof. As Atheists see as a, "There is no God because there is no proof." and Religious people see it as, "There is a God because there is no proof that is isn't a God." Quit screwing up the English language with your cowardice. You're either theist, or atheist. Agnosticism is a seperate issue. You either believe there is a god, or you don't. There is no inbetween. Somewhere in life, you've formed an opinion on the matter. If your neighbor told you he caught a shark in his fishing trip last weekend - you either believe him or you don't. To say "I don't know", isn't an answer, it's a statement of the obvious. The question is what do you believe. Pretty much EVERYONE, atheists and theists, are agnostic. Very few people claim to "know" the ultimate truth. The question when it comes to theism/atheism is what do you believe. If you're too afraid to answer the question, or you simply don't want to, just say so. But saying "agnosticism" is utterly meaningless. I guess it's possible that you truly have no opinion one way or the other when it comes to creation, but that says a lot about your imagination and intellectual prowess (or lack thereof). I don't speak English. I speak American. :Herp derp American-English: Or as a thinking person you'd ask for proof that your neighbor caught a shark if they have doubt, whether it be picture form or other. There are many type of sharks and catching sharks isn't uncommon or impossible. I'm afraid to answer a question to which I do not have an answer to. If I had an answer to if God exists or doesn't I'd give it. But I do not, so there's no reason for me to give one. If someone were to present to me that God exists I will either accept it or deny it based on how much of it I can see being true. Noone is necessarily asking for your answer. Leporello's point is that you must have an opinion of some kind regarding the existence of God (either you're an agnostic atheist or an agnostic theist).
My opinion is, if this can be an opinion is I want to believe that there is a god but if there is no proof by the time I die, then there isn't a God.
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On May 28 2011 03:57 KoKoRo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 03:47 Leporello wrote:On May 28 2011 03:33 KoKoRo wrote:On May 28 2011 03:27 DoubleReed wrote:On May 28 2011 03:25 KoKoRo wrote:On May 28 2011 03:23 DoubleReed wrote:Atheists deny Gods like they deny the fact they're a religion. I find that laughable too. I'll start believing Atheists aren't a religion when they stop forcing their views down the throats of people who are religious. Especially that Amazing Atheist guy on Youtube which my Atheist friend forces me to watch every time I come over. Does he piss you Atheists off as much as he does to me? Uhm. Atheism is a religion because a lot of them are jerks? What? They do just about everything a normal religion would do. They just want to be special and say they aren't. Except going to churches/synagogues/mosques, praying, and belief in a supernatural power I agree. Atheists are just like religious people other than those things.This is really confusing. You seem to be defining religion by all the horrible stuff that religion does. And yet you're defending religion? I'm just really confused about what you're trying to say. Is it just "Atheists are fucking assholes and I'm sick of hearing about them"? Because just because some atheists are jerks doesn't mean all of them are, and I'm sorry that you've gotten such a bad impression of them. The bold part sums up what I'm trying to say. It's because I'm agnostic. I'm for and against believing there is a God if I am presented proof. As Atheists see as a, "There is no God because there is no proof." and Religious people see it as, "There is a God because there is no proof that is isn't a God." Quit screwing up the English language with your cowardice. You're either theist, or atheist. Agnosticism is a seperate issue. You either believe there is a god, or you don't. There is no inbetween. Somewhere in life, you've formed an opinion on the matter. If your neighbor told you he caught a shark in his fishing trip last weekend - you either believe him or you don't. To say "I don't know", isn't an answer, it's a statement of the obvious. The question is what do you believe. Pretty much EVERYONE, atheists and theists, are agnostic. Very few people claim to "know" the ultimate truth. The question when it comes to theism/atheism is what do you believe. If you're too afraid to answer the question, or you simply don't want to, just say so. But saying "agnosticism" is utterly meaningless. I guess it's possible that you truly have no opinion one way or the other when it comes to creation, but that says a lot about your imagination and intellectual prowess (or lack thereof). I don't speak English. I speak American. :Herp derp American-English: Or as a thinking person you'd ask for proof that your neighbor caught a shark if they have doubt, whether it be picture form or other. There are many type of sharks and catching sharks isn't uncommon or impossible. I'm afraid to answer a question to which I do not have an answer to. If I had an answer to if God exists or doesn't I'd give it. But I do not, so there's no reason for me to give one. If someone were to present to me that God exists I will either accept it or deny it based on how much of it I can see being true.
Belief=/=knowledge...man I thought I went over this. The question isn't "Is there a God?", it's "Do you believe there's a God?" You can lack knowledge while holding a belief, the difference is obvious.
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On May 28 2011 03:57 KoKoRo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 03:47 Leporello wrote:On May 28 2011 03:33 KoKoRo wrote:On May 28 2011 03:27 DoubleReed wrote:On May 28 2011 03:25 KoKoRo wrote:On May 28 2011 03:23 DoubleReed wrote:Atheists deny Gods like they deny the fact they're a religion. I find that laughable too. I'll start believing Atheists aren't a religion when they stop forcing their views down the throats of people who are religious. Especially that Amazing Atheist guy on Youtube which my Atheist friend forces me to watch every time I come over. Does he piss you Atheists off as much as he does to me? Uhm. Atheism is a religion because a lot of them are jerks? What? They do just about everything a normal religion would do. They just want to be special and say they aren't. Except going to churches/synagogues/mosques, praying, and belief in a supernatural power I agree. Atheists are just like religious people other than those things.This is really confusing. You seem to be defining religion by all the horrible stuff that religion does. And yet you're defending religion? I'm just really confused about what you're trying to say. Is it just "Atheists are fucking assholes and I'm sick of hearing about them"? Because just because some atheists are jerks doesn't mean all of them are, and I'm sorry that you've gotten such a bad impression of them. The bold part sums up what I'm trying to say. It's because I'm agnostic. I'm for and against believing there is a God if I am presented proof. As Atheists see as a, "There is no God because there is no proof." and Religious people see it as, "There is a God because there is no proof that is isn't a God." Quit screwing up the English language with your cowardice. You're either theist, or atheist. Agnosticism is a seperate issue. You either believe there is a god, or you don't. There is no inbetween. Somewhere in life, you've formed an opinion on the matter. If your neighbor told you he caught a shark in his fishing trip last weekend - you either believe him or you don't. To say "I don't know", isn't an answer, it's a statement of the obvious. The question is what do you believe. Pretty much EVERYONE, atheists and theists, are agnostic. Very few people claim to "know" the ultimate truth. The question when it comes to theism/atheism is what do you believe. If you're too afraid to answer the question, or you simply don't want to, just say so. But saying "agnosticism" is utterly meaningless. I guess it's possible that you truly have no opinion one way or the other when it comes to creation, but that says a lot about your imagination and intellectual prowess (or lack thereof). I don't speak English. I speak American. :Herp derp American-English: Or as a thinking person you'd ask for proof that your neighbor caught a shark if they have doubt, whether it be picture form or other. There are many type of sharks and catching sharks isn't uncommon or impossible. I'm afraid to answer a question to which I do not have an answer to. If I had an answer to if God exists or doesn't I'd give it. But I do not, so there's no reason for me to give one. If someone were to present to me that God exists I will either accept it or deny it based on how much of it I can see being true.
so you are an agnostic atheist as many other ppl. You dont belief in any god because there is no proof. But if someone were to present you proof you would belief in him. Exactly what agnostic atheism represents. You just dont like to be labeled as an atheist, thats why you call yourself agnostic. (which doesnt exist in a theist >< atheist debate)
You dont have to go THERE IS NO POSSIBILITY WHATSOEVER THAT GOD EXISTS to be an atheist.
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On May 28 2011 03:57 KoKoRo wrote:
Or as a thinking person you'd ask for proof that your neighbor caught a shark if they have doubt, whether it be picture form or other. There are many type of sharks and catching sharks isn't uncommon or impossible.
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The question isn't "Is there a God?"
The question is "Do you believe there is a God?"
If I asked you if you believe your neighbor caught a shark, and you say "I don't know", you're not answering the question. Of course you don't know -- you don't have a picture. But what's your opinion? What do you believe?
If someone asks you if you're atheist or theist, agnosticism is not answering the question.
If you don't want to tell people your beliefs, that's your right, and I respect that. But please don't think agnosticism is a categorical answer to whether or not you believe in God. It isn't.
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On May 28 2011 03:37 KoKoRo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 03:32 BlackMagister wrote:On May 28 2011 03:28 KoKoRo wrote:On May 28 2011 03:26 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Atheists deny Gods like they deny the fact they're a religion. I find that laughable too. I'll start believing Atheists aren't a religion when they stop forcing their views down the throats of people who are religious. Especially that Amazing Atheist guy on Youtube which my Atheist friend forces me to watch every time I come over. Does he piss you Atheists off as much as he does to me?
Just because you completely fail to understand the definition of "religion" and therefore use the term incorrectly doesn't mean that Atheism is a religion. Atheists still haven't proven to me why it's not a religion. All I've gotten so far was a, "Atheism isn't a religion like not doing something is doing something." Basically vocal Atheists just don't want to be considered crazy is all I'm getting. Ok maybe we should put it this way. Is Agnosticism a religion? If not why? It is not a religion because it is a group of people who can be swayed into believing or not believing. As I said, opposite ends of the spectrum are still in the same spectrum. Agnostic would be on the outside looking in.
No. Frankly your lack understanding of logic and scientific method as demonstrated by your lack of comprehension of principle of parsimony/Occam's razor and even English language as shown by your inability to comprehend the definition of religion seems to pretty much solidify my image of "agnostics" as pretentious people that like to sit on virtual high horse and pretend that they are better than people who actually have well thought out opinions.
There are some agnostics with well thought out opinions, but they are much different from cliches in this thread.
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On May 27 2011 13:40 synapse wrote:Honestly I think the kid should've known better than to bitch about the prayer... Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 13:37 garlicface wrote:
Come on, threatening to get a "traditional" prayer cancelled? I mean, it's Louisiana (or, more importantly, the US). Of course this was going to happen
If you don't speak out, nothing changes. That's why this hasn't come up earlier, because previous atheists (or any other non-christian) didn't speak out.
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EPT
