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Thread is about the various issues surrounding Japan in the aftermath of the recent earthquake. Don't bring the shit side of the internet to the thread, and post with the realization that this thread is very important, and very real, to your fellow members.
Do not post speculative and unconfirmed news you saw on TV or anywhere else. Generally the more dramatic it sounds the less likely it's true. |
On March 26 2011 02:00 Danjoh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2011 01:29 smileyyy wrote:The National Institute of Radiological Sciences, where the three arrived earlier in the day for highly specialized treatment, said the two were exposed to 2 to 6 sieverts of radiation below their ankles, whereas exposure to 250 millisieverts is the limit set for workers dealing with the ongoing crisis, the worst in Japan's history. While the two in their late 20s and early 30s may develop symptoms of burns later, all three can walk without assistance and are expected to leave the institute as early as Monday, it said, adding it will continue monitoring them over time. http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/03/81122.html??? What are they saying ? 2-6 these guys are most likely gonna die. Dunno about all the news and their fear mongering. I wouldnt trust any news from a country with strong pro-nuclear lobby. I also think that Tepco are withholding information or they really dont have any clue about whats going on. I really respect all the workers who are sacrificing themselves. I doubt that many of them will have long life after the accident is over. I really hope it will turn out good :o I wouldn't really trust the news of a country who has focused all of it's attention to a possible worst case scenario of something that might happen, when at thesame time there was a horrible disaster that killed thousands of people... And Germany especially seems to have a very big anti-nuclear power lobby. According to Randal Munroes chart, 2Sv is treatable, 4Sv is sometimes treatable, and 8Sv is fatal. Does it matter how you were exposed to this? Or does the radiation spread quickly to the entire body? And why did the workers even get water in their boots in the first place, shouldn't they be wearing hazard suits or something?
Radiation to one part of your body is very different to a full body dose. And it's their ankles. There are no vital organs in your ankles that radiation will destroy.
Radiation isn't like a poison, it's like a light that goes through you. Wherever the light shines through you (where you get the dose) your DNA can get damaged/cells damaged. It's WAY worse when radiation is destroying heart/lung/brain cells than it is destroying toenail cells. These guys should live easily, even if future complications revolving around their feet/walking ability occur.
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In the graphic that was linked a few pages back, 8 Sv was assured death, 4 Sv sometimes survivors with treatment, 2 Sv sometimes death despite treatment. The press is everywhere only reporting, but never explaining and that radiation business is confusing with the alpha, beta, gamma rays. Sv measures energy per mass, but I never heard anything about the effect of those different types of radiation (except gamma) and what that means for those irradiated workers, if it is only something like their feet got burnt or cancer or what (the news site I frequent daily, mentioned "beta rays").
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On March 25 2011 21:12 RoosterSamurai wrote:http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110325/ap_on_re_as/as_japan_earthquakeIs this serious, or are they still trying to milk this reactor business for all it's worth? Honestly the media has cried wolf about this reactor, saying it's chernobyl 2 since the start, so I don't even know whether to be nervous and scared, or simply annoyed.
If you look at the chart I linked above your post there are three entries for plants 1-3 under "containment integrity". Two of them read "unknown" but one reads "damage suspected" (seems logical since the "unhealthy dosage" of radiation has to come from somewhere). This usually gets extrapolated by fearmongers into something big, but the thing is: They might be right. The crisis isnt over by far and there are probably weeks of work before all of the blocks of the power plant have sufficient cooling installed.
http://www.slideshare.net/iaea/table-summary-of-reactor-unit-status-at-of-24-march0600-utc
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Also a little depressing that every day, NHK reports the amount of energy in kilowatts that it has available for the public and forecasts the likelihood of rolling outages.
Electricity has become like weather in Japan in that it's uncontrollable. In fact, during the summer when everyone's blasting their air conditioning, electricity availability will become directly influenced by the weather.
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On March 24 2011 02:41 Chewits wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2011 16:05 IntoTheWow wrote:+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://imgs.xkcd.com/blag/radiation.png) Did anyone post this? It's pretty interesting regardless of the situation right now. The media loves spilling numbers all over (not only in this case in particular) but never actually explain what numbers mean. "XXX millions were used on our country this year to do YYYY". Proportion is something really important when doing numbers and this graph puts things a little into perspective. Questions numbers when a paper writes "specialists say..." or "very high levels". If they knew their shit, they would posts the numbers they got and a comparison to show if they are dangerous or not. Or at least a source to who the specialists are... I cant tell if that is actually true because of the troll in it lol
I'm sure it is accurate. The author of the image, Randall Monroe, is notorious for doing his homework. He worked at NASA until he quit to work on his web comic full time. Even the "formula" in the comic below was shown to hold true. There's a bunch of other images, i'm sure you've seen some, out there that he's done.
"Formula"
http://xkcd.com/687/
Some awesome images of his.
http://xkcd.com/482/
http://xkcd.com/485/
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On March 26 2011 06:47 dump wrote:
Electricity has become like weather in Japan in that it's uncontrollable. In fact, during the summer when everyone's blasting their air conditioning, electricity availability will become directly influenced by the weather.
I think there was a good reason why Japanese liked their silk Kimonos ... maybe it is a good time to go back to tradition after switching to western clothing for a while? That could reduce the need for air conditioning a bit.
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On March 26 2011 02:00 Danjoh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2011 01:29 smileyyy wrote:The National Institute of Radiological Sciences, where the three arrived earlier in the day for highly specialized treatment, said the two were exposed to 2 to 6 sieverts of radiation below their ankles, whereas exposure to 250 millisieverts is the limit set for workers dealing with the ongoing crisis, the worst in Japan's history. While the two in their late 20s and early 30s may develop symptoms of burns later, all three can walk without assistance and are expected to leave the institute as early as Monday, it said, adding it will continue monitoring them over time. http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/03/81122.html??? What are they saying ? 2-6 these guys are most likely gonna die. Dunno about all the news and their fear mongering. I wouldnt trust any news from a country with strong pro-nuclear lobby. I also think that Tepco are withholding information or they really dont have any clue about whats going on. I really respect all the workers who are sacrificing themselves. I doubt that many of them will have long life after the accident is over. I really hope it will turn out good :o I wouldn't really trust the news of a country who has focused all of it's attention to a possible worst case scenario of something that might happen, when at thesame time there was a horrible disaster that killed thousands of people... And Germany especially seems to have a very big anti-nuclear power lobby. According to Randal Munroes chart, 2Sv is treatable, 4Sv is sometimes treatable, and 8Sv is fatal. Does it matter how you were exposed to this? Or does the radiation spread quickly to the entire body? And why did the workers even get water in their boots in the first place, shouldn't they be wearing hazard suits or something?
A lobby is something that is created by an interest groups that provides funds for the lobbying. By default such a thing as a very big anti-nuclear power lobby can't exist. Who would pay politicians to be anti-nuclear? Producers of solar energy? Please.
Not to say that the german press coverage was good, but the warning for that post was imo wrong. Japanese news is rather downplaying the situation, and tepco can't be trusted at all (just look at their history).
It has been said before and I guess it has to be said again: One needs to find a balanced (fox tm) news source, like BBC (AP) or AJ. If you live in a region that is possibly affected by the plant and you trust the japanese government or tepco you are risking your life. Neither downplaying nor hyping the situation will help, accurate news does though.
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Al Jazeera reporting that radiation tests of sea water around the reactor indicate levels of radiation 1200 times normal. A significant leakage is suspected. According to Japanese PM nuclear situation is 'grave.'
Source
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On March 26 2011 16:34 Aurocaido wrote:Al Jazeera reporting that radiation tests of sea water around the reactor indicate levels of radiation 1200 times normal. A significant leakage is suspected. According to Japanese PM nuclear situation is 'grave.' Source
I am quite sure "1200 times normal" sounds very impressive, but how many times is this of the "safe level"? Normal is much lower than the safe level and this is just another example of how our journalists are looking at a fact and interpret it to sound more dramatic. The contamination of sea water is probably grave, but since water is a liquid the radiation levels will reach acceptable levels much faster than on the land. The local fishing boats are all wrecked by the Tsunami anyways ...
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On March 26 2011 17:12 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2011 16:34 Aurocaido wrote:Al Jazeera reporting that radiation tests of sea water around the reactor indicate levels of radiation 1200 times normal. A significant leakage is suspected. According to Japanese PM nuclear situation is 'grave.' Source I am quite sure "1200 times normal" sounds very impressive, but how many times is this of the "safe level"? Normal is much lower than the safe level and this is just another example of how our journalists are looking at a fact and interpret it to sound more dramatic. The contamination of sea water is probably grave, but since water is a liquid the radiation levels will reach acceptable levels much faster than on the land. The local fishing boats are all wrecked by the Tsunami anyways ...
If the reactor is leaking that much, then it is likely that the sea isnt going to be the only effected area, and that the leak has a high probability of becoming worse. Its starting to look more and more like the concrete sarcophogus from chernobl is a distinct possibility.
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On March 26 2011 17:12 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2011 16:34 Aurocaido wrote:Al Jazeera reporting that radiation tests of sea water around the reactor indicate levels of radiation 1200 times normal. A significant leakage is suspected. According to Japanese PM nuclear situation is 'grave.' Source I am quite sure "1200 times normal" sounds very impressive, but how many times is this of the "safe level"? Normal is much lower than the safe level and this is just another example of how our journalists are looking at a fact and interpret it to sound more dramatic. The contamination of sea water is probably grave, but since water is a liquid the radiation levels will reach acceptable levels much faster than on the land. The local fishing boats are all wrecked by the Tsunami anyways ...
The sources do not say "1200 times of normal" but instead talk about 1200 times your "safe level".
http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/03/81165.html
According to the government's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency, radioactive iodine-131 at a concentration 1,250.8 times the legal limit was detected Friday morning in a seawater sample taken around 330 meters south of the plant, near the drain outlets of its troubled four reactors.
The level rose to its highest so far in the survey begun this week, after staying around levels 100 times over the legal limit. It is highly likely that radioactive water in the plant has disembogued into the sea, Tokyo Electric Power Co said.
[...]
Radioactive materials ''will significantly dilute'' by the time they are consumed by marine species, the agency said, adding, it will not have a significant impact on fishery products as fishing is not conducted in the area within 20 kilometers of the plant as the government has issued a directive for residents in the area to evacuate.
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On March 26 2011 17:15 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2011 17:12 Rabiator wrote:On March 26 2011 16:34 Aurocaido wrote:Al Jazeera reporting that radiation tests of sea water around the reactor indicate levels of radiation 1200 times normal. A significant leakage is suspected. According to Japanese PM nuclear situation is 'grave.' Source I am quite sure "1200 times normal" sounds very impressive, but how many times is this of the "safe level"? Normal is much lower than the safe level and this is just another example of how our journalists are looking at a fact and interpret it to sound more dramatic. The contamination of sea water is probably grave, but since water is a liquid the radiation levels will reach acceptable levels much faster than on the land. The local fishing boats are all wrecked by the Tsunami anyways ... If the reactor is leaking that much, then it is likely that the sea isnt going to be the only effected area, and that the leak has a high probability of becoming worse. Its starting to look more and more like the concrete sarcophogus from chernobl is a distinct possibility.
That sarcophagus seems like a good idea, but the IAEA already has one reactor listed as "damage suspected" for the containment integrity. With hot nuclear fuel rods at the bottom of a pool it seems likely that this breach of containment might also go DOWN in addition to up. If that is the case it would be stupid to just put a lid on the whole thing while the radiation still seeps out down and into the surrounding area via any water which is in the earth below the plants. Sure there is bound to be a thick layer of concrete below, but even concrete does get damaged over time.
The closeness to a large body of salt water makes it practically imperative to "fix the problem" because this kind of atmosphere will increase the speed of corrosion in most of the metals used there. Even reinforced concrete (I hopefully used the correct technical term) has iron in it which usually isnt rust-proof. Thus these parts will stop performing their job eventually - after not being maintained regularly due to high radiation levels - and the whole building might collapse.
So they simply HAVE TO fix the cooling and eventually take out the fuel rods to check on the central pressure vessel. Just covering it up wont work for long due to the aggressive atmosphere (which is something that Chernobyl didnt have, so covering it up is much safer there).
On March 26 2011 02:00 Danjoh wrote:
And Germany especially seems to have a very big anti-nuclear power lobby.
That is something we developed after being the designated central battlefield for a potential third wold war which would be fought with short range nuclear missiles and even nuclear artillery.
In addition to that germany is densely populated and there is no room to maneuver in case anything goes wrong ... something I would think Japan has in common with us due to the mountainous nature of the land. Thus losing a "30 km radius area" around Fukushima would be quite a blow if it comes to that and it is another reason why they simply have to clean up and fix the power plants.
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On March 26 2011 17:15 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2011 17:12 Rabiator wrote:On March 26 2011 16:34 Aurocaido wrote:Al Jazeera reporting that radiation tests of sea water around the reactor indicate levels of radiation 1200 times normal. A significant leakage is suspected. According to Japanese PM nuclear situation is 'grave.' Source I am quite sure "1200 times normal" sounds very impressive, but how many times is this of the "safe level"? Normal is much lower than the safe level and this is just another example of how our journalists are looking at a fact and interpret it to sound more dramatic. The contamination of sea water is probably grave, but since water is a liquid the radiation levels will reach acceptable levels much faster than on the land. The local fishing boats are all wrecked by the Tsunami anyways ... If the reactor is leaking that much, then it is likely that the sea isnt going to be the only effected area, and that the leak has a high probability of becoming worse. Its starting to look more and more like the concrete sarcophogus from chernobl is a distinct possibility.
if it leaks into the ground would a sarcophagus even help? I mean they can't really put one under the reactor can they?
Seems pretty serious unfortunately the BBC article doesn't give any precise Sievert numbers either. They just talk how the water around reactor 1 and 3 had radiation levels 10 000 times higher then normal.
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My regards to all in Japan. A large portion of the country will be uninhabitable in the near future, and unlike Russia, there aren't many places for people to move emigrate to. I pray they begin whatever containment possible (concrete sarcophagus + underground sealing method) before it gets any more out of control.
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On March 27 2011 00:37 JeBi wrote:
My regards to all in Japan. A large portion of the country will be uninhabitable in the near future, and unlike Russia, there aren't many places for people to move emigrate to. I pray they begin whatever containment possible (concrete sarcophagus + underground sealing method) before it gets any more out of control.
In Chernobyl, the reactor core exploded and all of its insides got distributed over the power plant premises (and dust through the air over half of Europe) and nowadays the evacuated zone is an area around the plant with a radius of 30 km. With the inside of the reactors of Fukushima not being able to explode, I suppose it will not be worse than Chernobyl, so your "large portion of the country will be uninhabitable" is too pessimistic.
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Reuters Tweet:
#Japan plant operator says radioactivity in water at reactor No. 2 10 million times usual level, workers evacuated - local media
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
Exactly what is the scope of estimated damage right now? Do they think it will be really bad or is everything currently contained within the 20km radius and no signs of it getting any worse than that?
I'm completely lost at the moment. The radioactivity seems to be quite bad but I'm not really sure how wide in scope the damage will be.
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As far as I understand it the radiation is not "in the air" but in the (ground)water as well as in the sea. If the groundwater really is contaiminated 20km radius won't be enough I'd guess. But I think right now it is still impossible to have a clear picture/estiminate the real damage.
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On March 27 2011 13:28 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Reuters Tweet: Show nested quote +#Japan plant operator says radioactivity in water at reactor No. 2 10 million times usual level, workers evacuated - local media
"Tokyo Electric Power Company says it has detected radioactive materials 10-million-times normal levels in water at the No.2 reactor complex of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant.
The plant operator, known as TEPCO, says it measured 2.9-billion becquerels of radiation per one cubic centimeter of water from the basement of the turbine building attached to the Number 2 reactor.
The level of contamination is about 1,000 times that of the leaked water already found in the basements of the Number 1 and 3 reactor turbine buildings.
The company says the latest reading is 10-million times the usual radioactivity of water circulating within a normally operating reactor.
TEPCO says the radioactive materials include 2.9-billion becquerels of iodine-134, 13-million becquerels of iodine-131, and 2.3-million becquerels each for cesium 134 and 137.
These substances are emitted during nuclear fission inside a reactor core.
The company says the extremely contaminated water may stem from damaged fuel in the reactor, and are trying to determine how the leakage occurred.
University of Tokyo graduate school professor Naoto Sekimura says the leak may come from the suppression chamber of the Number 2 reactor, which is known to be damaged. The chamber is designed to contain overflows of radioactive substances from the reactor."
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/27_12.html
The problem now is that they need to conduct work in the turbine building to restore full power to the cooling functions of the reactors but because of the high radiation there, they cannot proceed with work yet.
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EPT
