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Crisis in Japan - Page 153

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Thread is about the various issues surrounding Japan in the aftermath of the recent earthquake. Don't bring the shit side of the internet to the thread, and post with the realization that this thread is very important, and very real, to your fellow members.

Do not post speculative and unconfirmed news you saw on TV or anywhere else. Generally the more dramatic it sounds the less likely it's true.
Manifesto7
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Osaka27173 Posts
March 16 2011 03:05 GMT
#3041
On March 16 2011 12:02 Nienordir wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2011 11:48 VanGarde wrote:
On March 16 2011 11:45 Nienordir wrote:
I hate their hesitation..seriously if they had asked for help a few days ago, then special teams/equipment could've already been on site/standby and nobody would blame them if it turns out that it wasn't needed, because nobody wants an accident like that. But if they fart around for more hours/days then it will probably take another 1-3 days to get the stuff ready&to Japan.

I don't get why they waste time by being polite, trying to look good. They just don't have the time to waste or might pay a big price for it..not worth the risk. Just the thought of how much help could've been under way in the past 3-4 days is quite frustrating. :/

Why do people keep spreading all of this false fearmongering? Do you know personally that they are just trying to "look good" or are you just making it up or taking in what the talking heads on all the internet chats are saying with absolutely no background information.

They asked for assistance from the United States and from the IAEA from the bloody start, they requested expert personel to be sent and they have afaik also requested pumping equipment.

Furthermore there is not a question of manpower or technology Japan is the worlds third largest economy and one of the technologically most advanced countries in the world. The problems at the plant is hard to manage because of the severity of the issues, because the surrounding catastrophy makes it hard to get resources into the region and because the radiation makes it very difficult to work effectively in the area. It is not a matter of lacking key expertise or technology to deal with this that can only be brought in from abroad. This isn't Haiti.

They got offered help from many countries but aside from a few experts, I don't think they have requested any real help yet.


If you only "think" this, then be quiet, because you don't know. Making up hypothetical situations is not acceptable, and is a leading cause of stupid in the world.

If you know this, cite your source and show your evidence.
ModeratorGodfather
chaoser
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States5541 Posts
March 16 2011 03:05 GMT
#3042
On March 16 2011 12:02 Fenrax wrote:
Let's assume a scenario: You know an explosion that will cause major fallout over big cities will happen but you also know how to prevent it. You will have to send workers there to but you know that they will get radiated lethally.

What do you do? Do you send them for the greater good anyway?


What does that have to do anything? There's not going to be an explosion of the containment chamber that will scatter radioactive materials in the air. The two bad things that can happen is #1, breach in the containment and so there is a leak into the outside air. Or the meltdown is hot enough to melt the floor and fall into the earth, poisoning the ground. The latter is unlikely to happen. Both are serious problems and hopefully won't happen but both aren't as bad as your scenario (Chernobyl) Stop trying to incite fearmongering please
Haven't you heard? I'm not an ex-progamer. I'm not a poker player. I'm not an admin of the site. I'm mother fucking Rekrul.
Manifesto7
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Osaka27173 Posts
March 16 2011 03:06 GMT
#3043
On March 16 2011 12:02 Fenrax wrote:
Let's assume a scenario: You know an explosion that will cause major fallout over big cities will happen but you also know how to prevent it. You will have to send workers there to but you know that they will get radiated lethally.

What do you do? Do you send them for the greater good anyway?


Take it to the philosophy thread.
ModeratorGodfather
VanGarde
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden755 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-16 03:11:38
March 16 2011 03:08 GMT
#3044
On March 16 2011 12:02 Nienordir wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2011 11:48 VanGarde wrote:
On March 16 2011 11:45 Nienordir wrote:
I hate their hesitation..seriously if they had asked for help a few days ago, then special teams/equipment could've already been on site/standby and nobody would blame them if it turns out that it wasn't needed, because nobody wants an accident like that. But if they fart around for more hours/days then it will probably take another 1-3 days to get the stuff ready&to Japan.

I don't get why they waste time by being polite, trying to look good. They just don't have the time to waste or might pay a big price for it..not worth the risk. Just the thought of how much help could've been under way in the past 3-4 days is quite frustrating. :/

Why do people keep spreading all of this false fearmongering? Do you know personally that they are just trying to "look good" or are you just making it up or taking in what the talking heads on all the internet chats are saying with absolutely no background information.

They asked for assistance from the United States and from the IAEA from the bloody start, they requested expert personel to be sent and they have afaik also requested pumping equipment.

Furthermore there is not a question of manpower or technology Japan is the worlds third largest economy and one of the technologically most advanced countries in the world. The problems at the plant is hard to manage because of the severity of the issues, because the surrounding catastrophy makes it hard to get resources into the region and because the radiation makes it very difficult to work effectively in the area. It is not a matter of lacking key expertise or technology to deal with this that can only be brought in from abroad. This isn't Haiti.

They got offered help from many countries but aside from a few experts, I don't think they have requested any real help yet. Which means nothing is under way. So we're talking about the time it takes to fly stuff to Japan + the time that is needed to prepare the transport, not to mention the time needed to finally decide to accept the offer.

Fact is if they had asked 2-3 days ago, then specialists, cooling equipment/generators or teams that could help dealing with a possible worst case could already be there ready to deploy. And that's what I find frustrating, because if something happens they're caught with their pants down and with that help the current situation might have looked different. They're just wasting precious time by wanting to deal with that situation on their own instead of preparing for things, when the help is offered for free anyway.


What exactly is it that you think that they are lacking that they are not asking for? The IAEA is directly involved, they have requested extra personel from the US and this happened days ago.
Do you honestly think that the current incident is haiving the outlook it has because the third largest economy in the world, and the country with one of the largest standing number of active nuclear reactors is not solving this incident faster because there is magical technology or expertise abroad that they are not asking for?

Please stop spreading speculation and assertion or repeat the random chatter that floods the internet. There are too many morons right now making statements that is just not based in information.

note: I apologize if this post is bordering on off topic. I will not pursue this discussion but I had to speak up against someone posting misleading speculation.
War does not determine who is right - only who is left.
Fenrax
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States5018 Posts
March 16 2011 03:10 GMT
#3045
On March 16 2011 12:05 chaoser wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2011 12:02 Fenrax wrote:
Let's assume a scenario: You know an explosion that will cause major fallout over big cities will happen but you also know how to prevent it. You will have to send workers there to but you know that they will get radiated lethally.

What do you do? Do you send them for the greater good anyway?


What does that have to do anything? There's not going to be an explosion of the containment chamber that will scatter radioactive materials in the air. The two bad things that can happen is #1, breach in the containment and so there is a leak into the outside air. Or the meltdown is hot enough to melt the floor and fall into the earth, poisoning the ground. The latter is unlikely to happen. Both are serious problems and hopefully won't happen but both aren't as bad as your scenario (Chernobyl) Stop trying to incite fearmongering please



It has to do with the fact that people were actually, in fact, working there for much longer than what was good for their own health. It is a pretty safe assumption that none of the radiation was lethal, but certainly enough to increase their cancer risk. So this is a decision that has to be made. How far do you sacrifice health and lives of a group of individuals for the sake of millions.
Rus_Brain
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Russian Federation1894 Posts
March 16 2011 03:12 GMT
#3046
GMT
3:00
DJ: Japan Govt Decides To Send Self-Defense Force Reserves To Quake Zone -Kyodo
------------------------------

3:01
DJ: South Korea To Provide Japan With Boric Acid -Kyodo
------------------------------
patyrykin.net
chaoser
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States5541 Posts
March 16 2011 03:14 GMT
#3047
On March 16 2011 12:10 Fenrax wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2011 12:05 chaoser wrote:
On March 16 2011 12:02 Fenrax wrote:
Let's assume a scenario: You know an explosion that will cause major fallout over big cities will happen but you also know how to prevent it. You will have to send workers there to but you know that they will get radiated lethally.

What do you do? Do you send them for the greater good anyway?


What does that have to do anything? There's not going to be an explosion of the containment chamber that will scatter radioactive materials in the air. The two bad things that can happen is #1, breach in the containment and so there is a leak into the outside air. Or the meltdown is hot enough to melt the floor and fall into the earth, poisoning the ground. The latter is unlikely to happen. Both are serious problems and hopefully won't happen but both aren't as bad as your scenario (Chernobyl) Stop trying to incite fearmongering please



It has to do with the fact that people were actually, in fact, working there for much longer than what was good for their own health. It is a pretty safe assumption that none of the radiation was lethal, but certainly enough to increase their cancer risk. So this is a decision that has to be made. How far do you sacrifice health and lives of a group of individuals for the sake of millions.


On March 16 2011 12:06 Manifesto7 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2011 12:02 Fenrax wrote:
Let's assume a scenario: You know an explosion that will cause major fallout over big cities will happen but you also know how to prevent it. You will have to send workers there to but you know that they will get radiated lethally.

What do you do? Do you send them for the greater good anyway?


Take it to the philosophy thread.

Haven't you heard? I'm not an ex-progamer. I'm not a poker player. I'm not an admin of the site. I'm mother fucking Rekrul.
Souma
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
March 16 2011 03:15 GMT
#3048
On March 16 2011 12:10 Fenrax wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2011 12:05 chaoser wrote:
On March 16 2011 12:02 Fenrax wrote:
Let's assume a scenario: You know an explosion that will cause major fallout over big cities will happen but you also know how to prevent it. You will have to send workers there to but you know that they will get radiated lethally.

What do you do? Do you send them for the greater good anyway?


What does that have to do anything? There's not going to be an explosion of the containment chamber that will scatter radioactive materials in the air. The two bad things that can happen is #1, breach in the containment and so there is a leak into the outside air. Or the meltdown is hot enough to melt the floor and fall into the earth, poisoning the ground. The latter is unlikely to happen. Both are serious problems and hopefully won't happen but both aren't as bad as your scenario (Chernobyl) Stop trying to incite fearmongering please



It has to do with the fact that people were actually, in fact, working there for much longer than what was good for their own health. It is a pretty safe assumption that none of the radiation was lethal, but certainly enough to increase their cancer risk. So this is a decision that has to be made. How far do you sacrifice health and lives of a group of individuals for the sake of millions.


The workers volunteered, so I'm not sure why you're bringing it up. It wasn't a matter of 'sending them,' rather than 'letting them.'
Writer
johnnysokko
Profile Joined February 2010
United States30 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-16 03:27:17
March 16 2011 03:16 GMT
#3049
On March 16 2011 09:54 VanGarde wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2011 09:50 hugman wrote:
People have been saying that the Tsunami, and not the earthquake, knocked out the emergency power and cooling systems, but the aerial pictures don't show any water, all the trees behind the plant are left standing, it doesn't look like the tsunami hit there at all. What gives?

http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/4d7ebccb49e2aec74e1f0000/fukushima-japan.jpg

There is little point speculating from images when we don't know these things, for all we know the emergency generators are not located anywhere near the reactor buildings.



Saw images today, the reactor complex is seaside. I guess the news and YouTube vids are from the landside of the plant. The shaking at the complex was actually not that severe according to what I heard today, but the plant seawall was designed for a 5.7m wave and the actual wave at the plant was around 10m, topping the wall by quite a bit. The damage to the cooling systems is almost entirely due to the tsunami.

Side notes, the plant was designed to withstand a 7.5 earthquake based on the Kern 1952 event. The reference is american because the plant was designed by GE.

Edit: If I'm given permission, will post pictures from the seaward side of the reactor tomorrow.
Mataza
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Germany5364 Posts
March 16 2011 03:17 GMT
#3050
I´m not quite up to date.
I heard yesterday in my local radio that there have been reports of protective casing(eh, I think that´s the right translation, not sure).
They weren´t sure either, because the reports they got were contradicting each other.

I sure hope it was about the outer wall explosion thing that was shown here.

So, are there still contradicting reports or was it just a fluke of my radio station?
If nobody hates you, you´re doing something wrong. However someone hating you doesn´t make you right
a176
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada6688 Posts
March 16 2011 03:19 GMT
#3051
they are saying 6.4 micro sievert at the news conference, but there seems to be confusion whether they meant micro or milli
starleague forever
Rus_Brain
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Russian Federation1894 Posts
March 16 2011 03:22 GMT
#3052
3:19
DJ: Japan Nuclear Agency: Worker Evacuation Order Lifted As Radiation Level Falling
------------------------------

3:19
DJ: Japan Edano: Radiation Levels Spike At Nuclear Plant
------------------------------
patyrykin.net
Rus_Brain
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Russian Federation1894 Posts
March 16 2011 03:23 GMT
#3053
DJMN: Japan Edano: Radiation Levels Spike At Nuclear Plant


TOKYO (Dow Jones)--Japan's top government spokesman said Wednesday that radiation levels had again spiked at a smoking quake-hit nuclear plant, but said there was no need to expand the evacuation area around the plant based on current data.
"From about 8:30 (2330 GMT) this morning white smoke was confirmed coming from the No. 3 reactor at the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Plant," Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano said, adding that radiation levels rose sharply around at 0100 GMT, before falling shortly afterward.
Japan's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency said the radiation level around the plant peaked at 6,400 microsieverts at around 0145 GMT. By 0200 GMT, the radiation level had fallen to 3,391 microsieverts.
Edano said the most likely explanation for the sudden rise in radiation levels was an emission of radioactive steam from the containment vessel, although he stressed nothing had been confirmed.
Based on current information there was no need to expand the 20-kilometer evacuation zone around the plant. People living between 20-kilometers and 30 kilometers have been told to stay indoors.


-Tokyo Bureau, Dow Jones Newswires; +81-3-6269-2770
patyrykin.net
chaoser
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States5541 Posts
March 16 2011 03:23 GMT
#3054
omg the chat for the NHK ustream is ridiculous...I don't even want to look at it due to the stupidity being spewed all over it. People are actually reporting the situation and they're going OMG EXPLOSION JAPAN IS UNLIVABLE!!
Haven't you heard? I'm not an ex-progamer. I'm not a poker player. I'm not an admin of the site. I'm mother fucking Rekrul.
johnnysokko
Profile Joined February 2010
United States30 Posts
March 16 2011 03:25 GMT
#3055
On March 16 2011 11:45 Nienordir wrote:
I hate their hesitation..seriously if they had asked for help a few days ago, then special teams/equipment could've already been on site/standby and nobody would blame them if it turns out that it wasn't needed, because nobody wants an accident like that. But if they fart around for more hours/days then it will probably take another 1-3 days to get the stuff ready&to Japan.

I don't get why they waste time by being polite, trying to look good. They just don't have the time to waste or might pay a big price for it..not worth the risk. Just the thought of how much help could've been under way in the past 3-4 days is quite frustrating. :/


1) When these situations happen, there's a very limited subset of people who actually have the knowledge and the training to make a difference, 9 times out of 10 they are already in the loop because these expert communities are small and everybody knows everybody

2) Even though its a disastrous situation, decision cannot be made without careful consideration, there are just too many case studies of engineers making the wrong decision because they gave in to the time pressure. Chernobyl and TMI are two of the biggest historical examples. We're all praying Fukushima doesn't make the list. At this point of disaster most of the decision are just trying figure out which option will be the least disastrous.
chaoser
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States5541 Posts
March 16 2011 03:26 GMT
#3056
TimeOutTokyo TimeOutTokyo
Chiba, Saitama, Tochigi, Saitama, Ibaraki, Fukushima...earthquake warning.
Haven't you heard? I'm not an ex-progamer. I'm not a poker player. I'm not an admin of the site. I'm mother fucking Rekrul.
VanGarde
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden755 Posts
March 16 2011 03:27 GMT
#3057
nhk just interrupted the broadcast to give an advance warning of a strong earthquake that could hit imminently. The alert is directed at the prefectures north of Tokyo.
War does not determine who is right - only who is left.
tiffany
Profile Joined November 2003
3664 Posts
March 16 2011 03:28 GMT
#3058
i'm not an apple fan by any means, but i think they set a really good example in the wake of the disaster

http://kevinrose.com/blogg/2011/3/14/apples-role-in-japan-during-the-tohoku-earthquake.html

+ Show Spoiler +
Wow, this email is from a friend of mine that works for Apple in Japan... makes me happy Apple went the extra mile here, check out his story below:

---

Dear Alex L, David, & Kevin,
Hi this is XXXXX in Japan. As you all must have heard, the 5th largest earthquake in recorded history hit us on Friday, 2:30pm Japan Time. As Alex often says on TWiM, stories on the ground are often quite different from the stories in the news, and there is a tech story that I'd really like to tell: the story of Apple Inc in Japan.

Full disclosure: I work at Apple at one of its stores in Japan. The earthquake hit while I was working on the first floor of one of their stores. As the entire building swayed, the staff calmly led people from the top 5 floors down to the first floor, and under the ridiculously strong wooden tables that hold up the display computers.

7 hours and 118 aftershocks later, the store was still open. Why? Because with the phone and train lines down, taxis stopped, and millions of people stuck in the Tokyo shopping district scared, with no access to television, hundreds of people were swarming into Apple stores to watch the news on USTREAM and contact their families via Twitter, Facebook, and email. The young did it on their mobile devices, while the old clustered around the macs. There were even some Android users there. (There are almost no free wifi spots in Japan besides Apple stores, so even Android users often come to the stores.)

You know how in disaster movies, people on the street gather around electronic shops that have TVs in the display windows so they can stay informed with what is going on? In this digital age, that's what the Tokyo Apple stores became. Staff brought out surge protectors and extension cords with 10s of iOS device adapters so people could charge their phones & pads and contact their loved ones. Even after we finally had to close 10pm, crowds of people huddled in front of our stores to use the wifi into the night, as it was still the only way to get access to the outside world.

Anyway, I mention this not because I work at Apple now, or because I'm an admitted fanboy, but because I'm genuinely proud of the Apple Japan staff and their willingness to stay open to help people that day. And I'm also impressed with the way Apple's products (and yes, Google's, Twitter's, and Facebook's) helped them that day. Even after we had to close, many of the staff stayed outside the store to fixing iphones and teaching people how to contact family or stay informed via wifi.

TWiM, TWiT and Rev3 have talked about the power of tech & the cloud during the recent global events, so I wanted to let you know of one more example during the Great Tohoku Earthquake in Japan.

Sincerely,

XXXXX
Great Tohoku Earthquake Survivor 2011

----- UPDATE: -----

As of the writing of this, another nuclear plant just had an explosion so I will keep the 2nd half of the story as brief as possible as I may need to evacuate soon (weak smile).

A quick list of kind things Apple did after we closed:

1. Because the trains and phones were down, almost everyone who worked in Tokyo was stranded deep in the city. All the hotels were booked, the roads were jammed, so hundreds of people were instantly homeless. Apple told all of their staff - Retail AND Corporate - that they could go sleep at the Apple stores. The Senior managers at the stores had been notified earlier and unbeknownst to us, had gone out to stock up on food and drinks after the very first quake hit.

This was a godsend because by 11pm (118 aftershocks later) all food and drinks were sold out at every store within walking distance. And when I say walking distance, I mean 3-4 hours of walking distance. (Tokyo is a big city.)

Letting not just Retail but corporate staff sleep at the Apple stores was genius because:

1a. The corporate offices are in skyscrapers with over 50 flights of stairs. With all elevators in Japan shutdown, this was a nightmare.

1b. The Retail stores were the only areas where WE controlled the buildings, from top to bottom, so we could monitor, fix, and maintain the back-up power, networks, and heating ourselves.

1c. Ubiquitous wifi and Facetime devices gave us a lifeline to our families and the rest of the world. Facetime turned out to be MUCH more stable than Skype (And I'm a Skype fanboy!)

1d. With theater rooms and breakrooms designed for 150+ people, the Apple stores were the most comfortable places to be and to sleep. Much more comfortable than sleeping on the street on a cold March night.

2. Once staff let their families know that they were not only safe but how comfortable we were (break room refridgerators stocked with food and drink, etc), family members began asking if they could stay at the Apple stores as well. Of course Apple said yes. One business team member's stranded mother walked 3.5 hours to be with her daughter at the store. When she arrived, the Apple store staff gave her a standing ovation ("Warm Welcome") like they do for customers during a new launch.

3. The head of Apple International HR and of Japan Retail happened to be in Japan that week. Both came and spent the night with us in the stores and told everyone that if anyone wanted to try their luck getting home on their own, Apple would pay for any food, drink, or transportation fees that that person incurred on the way. "Your safety is most important."

If, on their way home the staff member realized they couldn't make it, but they found an open hotel, Apple would pay for it. Since many people lived 2-3 hours away, this ended up meaning 11 hour walks home, $300 taxi fares, and $800 hotel rooms (only the luxury hotels had vacancies). Executives from Cupertino and London Facetimed with us, letting us know not to worry, they supported us, and that they would write off on it all.

4. We continued to open our doors to stranded people on the street fixing iphones, selling battery packs, or simply teaching people how to get streaming news on their smart-phones until 3am in the morning.

And lastly, as I write this now 3 days later, even though the Japanese government says everything is fine, nuclear plants continue to explode. And we still haven't even gotten the 7pt aftershock that is predicted to come this week, nor the nuclear/acid rain that is predicted to fall within the next 3 days. I hate to say this, but things may only get worse before they get better.

I've been calling my girlfriend at work, asking her to come home, but because the Tokyo government hasn't said anything, her company won't let her leave. On the other hand, my manager at Apple called me to let me know that Apple will support any decision I make regarding leaving the country or the area, and that a job will still be waiting for me if I decide to come back.

That is why I am a fanboy. Ack! Sorry, that wasn't brief at all!

Thanks for reading!

XXXXX
a176
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada6688 Posts
March 16 2011 03:29 GMT
#3059
3, 760 confirmed dead, over 11,000 still missing
starleague forever
alffla
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Hong Kong20321 Posts
March 16 2011 03:34 GMT
#3060
On March 16 2011 12:05 Manifesto7 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2011 12:02 Nienordir wrote:
On March 16 2011 11:48 VanGarde wrote:
On March 16 2011 11:45 Nienordir wrote:
I hate their hesitation..seriously if they had asked for help a few days ago, then special teams/equipment could've already been on site/standby and nobody would blame them if it turns out that it wasn't needed, because nobody wants an accident like that. But if they fart around for more hours/days then it will probably take another 1-3 days to get the stuff ready&to Japan.

I don't get why they waste time by being polite, trying to look good. They just don't have the time to waste or might pay a big price for it..not worth the risk. Just the thought of how much help could've been under way in the past 3-4 days is quite frustrating. :/

Why do people keep spreading all of this false fearmongering? Do you know personally that they are just trying to "look good" or are you just making it up or taking in what the talking heads on all the internet chats are saying with absolutely no background information.

They asked for assistance from the United States and from the IAEA from the bloody start, they requested expert personel to be sent and they have afaik also requested pumping equipment.

Furthermore there is not a question of manpower or technology Japan is the worlds third largest economy and one of the technologically most advanced countries in the world. The problems at the plant is hard to manage because of the severity of the issues, because the surrounding catastrophy makes it hard to get resources into the region and because the radiation makes it very difficult to work effectively in the area. It is not a matter of lacking key expertise or technology to deal with this that can only be brought in from abroad. This isn't Haiti.

They got offered help from many countries but aside from a few experts, I don't think they have requested any real help yet.


If you only "think" this, then be quiet, because you don't know. Making up hypothetical situations is not acceptable, and is a leading cause of stupid in the world.

If you know this, cite your source and show your evidence.


http://www.newsmax.com/KenTimmerman/japan-nuclear-fallout-us/2011/03/13/id/389295

is newsmax a reliable source at all? i havent really heard of it before..

i'm doubting that japan actually refused help though.. thats really weird. and japan is receiving help from SOUTH KOREA which are supposed to be their rivals or whatever, so why would they refuse help from the US -_- lol
Graphicssavior[gm] : What is a “yawn” rape ;; Masumune - It was the year of the pig for those fucking defilers. Chill - A clinic you say? okum: SC without Korean yelling is like porn without sex. konamix: HAPPY BIRTHDAY MOMMY!
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