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On November 25 2010 02:45 lvatural wrote:
I never understood why SK has to do its military games or artillery firing schedules so close to the NK border. I'm sure there's a factor of pride or posturing in there, but it's just poking an already angry beast. Sure SK didn't fire onto the land of NK or did it fire into the water territory of NK, but it's just the excuse that NK would need to do something drastic in order to extort more aid out of SK or other Western nations.
That sort of drills are quite common for nations with actual armies. Russia at the moment does this regularly alongside Georgia's border. Patrols and war games are also common in the Bering Sea from both the US and Russia. NATO does regularly training in the Black Sea, bordering non-NATO countries' waterlines. We don't see that as a problem, because we're all reasonable creatures, who aren't brainwashed by propaganda.
During the Yugoslavian war, US bombs actually fell on Bulgarian territory. It was a mistake and nobody jumped to conclusions.
I must admit thou, maybe if Bulgaria was to declare war on the US, we would've been better off right now, because we would've been occupied by a nation that knows how to raise a dead economy. China would do that trick just as well, so don't think I'm US-biased :D
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On November 25 2010 02:48 Wooba wrote:That is pretty sad. You'd think she'd at least know the basics...like, you know, who her country is allied with. I guess that isn't a requirement anymore to be in a political position.
There's requirements to be a politician? :\
All I know is that I think it's better for everyone if NK and SK don't get into it...
As if the N. Korean citizens don't have it bad enough as it is...
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US aircraft carrier heads to Korean peninsula
The USS George Washington, an aircraft carrier carrying 75 warplanes and a crew of over 6,000, shipped out towards Korean waters on Wednesday. According to US officials in Seoul, the carrier left Japan and was expected to join naval exercises with South Korea next week.
read more
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I just read an article in the local newspaper here (Washington State). Obviously tensions have been rising between N and S Korea for a while, or maybe have just always been high since the Korean War. Anyway, because North Korea is so quiet about everything they haven't released any casualty numbers that I am aware of. (Please correct me if I'm wrong). I hope there weren't many, otherwise they may feel the need to continue with the aggression, and that would be awful as far as I'm concerned.
That said, Obama say's that the USA will stand by SK if there is any further aggression, which is the right choice. NK needs to learn to play nice, ideally it would be in a way that doesn't involve war, but if they continue these practically unprovoked attacks, (today, sinking SK ship a few months back) there may be no choice.
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On November 25 2010 02:58 ImFromPortugal wrote:US aircraft carrier heads to Korean peninsulaThe USS George Washington, an aircraft carrier carrying 75 warplanes and a crew of over 6,000, shipped out towards Korean waters on Wednesday. According to US officials in Seoul, the carrier left Japan and was expected to join naval exercises with South Korea next week. read more
Nothing too surprising. The same thing happened the last time tensions flared up.
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In the front yard of a paranoid schizofrenic with a history of agression.
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On November 25 2010 01:37 Krigwin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 01:05 clementdudu wrote:On November 25 2010 00:59 KillerPenguin wrote:On November 24 2010 23:41 clementdudu wrote:On November 24 2010 19:03 ZerglingSoup wrote:
Even if China decided to launch an invasion, things would get very dangerous for everybody.
I think the sanctions should be slowly reversed and the world should do their best to bring North Korea back into the fold, economically speaking. Slap the golden straight jacket on them and pump their coffers full of American dollars until they stop looking back, just like we did in China.
Unless the world community all of a sudden decides that the most optimal option is worth dying for, we ought to do the best with what we've got over there. WOW first good post in 90 pages? There is no way a military intervention is possible,and usage of nukes on Nkorea would mean that China/Japan would be hit too. Wait for Il to die,work with his son and smother them with goods/food/money. They'll never look back. It's thinking like this that creates criminals. We didn't pump money into china they created goods and sold them too us. You might as well suggest replacing punishment for criminals with food stamps. 30 more North Koreans will pop up when firing artillery at other nations gets you more money. and.....you just summed up what i think. I dont believe in criminal punishment(to some extent of course),i believe in rehabilitation. Ostracizing someone never made him think,just forced him to get more into his shell,and become even more radical. International sanctions are helping the Nkorea regim to keep his leadership. Bullying the fat ginger kid never made him work out and dye his hair,just hate everyone even more. The problem is you all are assuming we can, through commerce, modernize the people of NK. This will never happen, their propaganda is too good. Their people are fanatical. Withdrawing sanctions and extending further aid will only prolong the life of their political machine, and you can bet they will find some way to spin that into more hate towards the Western world. Short of military liberation, the best we can do is slowly bleed them to death and hope for a coup or revolution.
It would be a slow process, no doubt, but its a matter of connecting their people to the outside world through economic integration until they slowwwly begin to see through the propaganda and demand changes in their society.
You say the propaganda is "just too good", but it's these aggressive economic actions that give it the firepower it needs to sustain itself.
You say we need to hope for a coup or revolution, but if the propaganda is indeed as good as you say, we won't get that unless we can directly communicate with the people.
People are very sensitive to the casualties that war inflicts, but our economic aggression in this situation is damaging too, as it gives these brutal little dictators a kind of warped moral authority in the eyes of their populace.
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It's an annualy planned drill. I repeat, it's done every year. Nearly every military does this on their borders to train and make sure troops know the terrain, how to react, and test equipment. In fact, NK did the very same thing earlier this year.
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On November 25 2010 03:04 night terrors wrote:In the front yard of a paranoid schizofrenic with a history of agression.
has north korea invaded anything in 50+ years?
meanwhile the USA has taken over afghanistan, destroyed iraq, is actively bombing northern pakistan, signing 10$ billion dollar weapons deals with india, and now apparently we need to expand drone bombings to yemen last i heard.
but eh, maybe if we actually do go into war and people are drafted then people will stop being so apathetic to these issues, since it will affect them personally.
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On November 25 2010 00:59 KillerPenguin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 23:41 clementdudu wrote:On November 24 2010 19:03 ZerglingSoup wrote:
Even if China decided to launch an invasion, things would get very dangerous for everybody.
I think the sanctions should be slowly reversed and the world should do their best to bring North Korea back into the fold, economically speaking. Slap the golden straight jacket on them and pump their coffers full of American dollars until they stop looking back, just like we did in China.
Unless the world community all of a sudden decides that the most optimal option is worth dying for, we ought to do the best with what we've got over there. WOW first good post in 90 pages? There is no way a military intervention is possible,and usage of nukes on Nkorea would mean that China/Japan would be hit too. Wait for Il to die,work with his son and smother them with goods/food/money. They'll never look back. It's thinking like this that creates criminals. We didn't pump money into china they created goods and sold them too us. You might as well suggest replacing punishment for criminals with food stamps. 30 more North Koreans will pop up when firing artillery at other nations gets you more money.
Assuming you mean "creates criminals" like we did in the Middle East, we create criminals when we give illicit weapons and wartime technology to subversive military organizations. This is a little different. We've already got a criminal in North Korea, but pretty much everyone agrees that we can't go arrest him. So for the sake of the people there, we might as well try to change his behavior.
I don't mean to directly give them aid. We already do that. What we need to do is allow their country to communicate trade freely with the rest of the world, so that they depend on us for their own wealth and they realize that having lots of money is better than killing your neighbors. Sanctions work in small doses against reasonable and integrated governments- there aren't 30 nations out there who could stand to gain from threatening peaceful nations. Sanctions, however, aren't an effective deterrant for the DPRK.
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On November 25 2010 03:09 ZerglingSoup wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 01:37 Krigwin wrote:On November 25 2010 01:05 clementdudu wrote:On November 25 2010 00:59 KillerPenguin wrote:On November 24 2010 23:41 clementdudu wrote:On November 24 2010 19:03 ZerglingSoup wrote:
Even if China decided to launch an invasion, things would get very dangerous for everybody.
I think the sanctions should be slowly reversed and the world should do their best to bring North Korea back into the fold, economically speaking. Slap the golden straight jacket on them and pump their coffers full of American dollars until they stop looking back, just like we did in China.
Unless the world community all of a sudden decides that the most optimal option is worth dying for, we ought to do the best with what we've got over there. WOW first good post in 90 pages? There is no way a military intervention is possible,and usage of nukes on Nkorea would mean that China/Japan would be hit too. Wait for Il to die,work with his son and smother them with goods/food/money. They'll never look back. It's thinking like this that creates criminals. We didn't pump money into china they created goods and sold them too us. You might as well suggest replacing punishment for criminals with food stamps. 30 more North Koreans will pop up when firing artillery at other nations gets you more money. and.....you just summed up what i think. I dont believe in criminal punishment(to some extent of course),i believe in rehabilitation. Ostracizing someone never made him think,just forced him to get more into his shell,and become even more radical. International sanctions are helping the Nkorea regim to keep his leadership. Bullying the fat ginger kid never made him work out and dye his hair,just hate everyone even more. The problem is you all are assuming we can, through commerce, modernize the people of NK. This will never happen, their propaganda is too good. Their people are fanatical. Withdrawing sanctions and extending further aid will only prolong the life of their political machine, and you can bet they will find some way to spin that into more hate towards the Western world. Short of military liberation, the best we can do is slowly bleed them to death and hope for a coup or revolution. It would be a slow process, no doubt, but its a matter of connecting their people to the outside world through economic integration until they slowwwly begin to see through the propaganda and demand changes in their society. You say the propaganda is "just too good", but it's these aggressive economic actions that give it the firepower it needs to sustain itself. You say we need to hope for a coup or revolution, but if the propaganda is indeed as good as you say, we won't get that unless we can directly communicate with the people. People are very sensitive to the casualties that war inflicts, but our economic aggression in this situation is damaging too, as it gives these brutal little dictators a kind of warped moral authority in the eyes of their populace.
Who is to say that extending aid won't also give the regime what it needs to sustain itself? They could spin it in any number of ways.
Also, please elaborate on how we can "connect" their people to the outside world through economic integration. The very information these people are given access to is controlled by the government, I don't see how shipping over more food will somehow change that, unless we come up with a way of directly trading and communicating with the people themselves, and if we could do that, we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place.
Finally, the coup or revolution does not have to come from the population itself. When Il dies, perhaps his son or the other military leaders in charge will lead a face turn. However unlikely, it's a better solution to hope for than anything else we've got.
There's no doubt that our economic actions are damaging, and strongly immoral as they are punitive to the population, many of whom are no doubt innocent, just brainwashed. But we're doing it in the hopes of the eventual collapse of the bigger evil, the regime, rather than indirectly sustaining them by simply providing more aid.
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On November 25 2010 01:48 Krigwin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 01:43 Zorkmid wrote:On November 25 2010 01:37 Krigwin wrote:On November 25 2010 01:05 clementdudu wrote:On November 25 2010 00:59 KillerPenguin wrote:On November 24 2010 23:41 clementdudu wrote:On November 24 2010 19:03 ZerglingSoup wrote:
Even if China decided to launch an invasion, things would get very dangerous for everybody.
I think the sanctions should be slowly reversed and the world should do their best to bring North Korea back into the fold, economically speaking. Slap the golden straight jacket on them and pump their coffers full of American dollars until they stop looking back, just like we did in China.
Unless the world community all of a sudden decides that the most optimal option is worth dying for, we ought to do the best with what we've got over there. WOW first good post in 90 pages? There is no way a military intervention is possible,and usage of nukes on Nkorea would mean that China/Japan would be hit too. Wait for Il to die,work with his son and smother them with goods/food/money. They'll never look back. It's thinking like this that creates criminals. We didn't pump money into china they created goods and sold them too us. You might as well suggest replacing punishment for criminals with food stamps. 30 more North Koreans will pop up when firing artillery at other nations gets you more money. and.....you just summed up what i think. I dont believe in criminal punishment(to some extent of course),i believe in rehabilitation. Ostracizing someone never made him think,just forced him to get more into his shell,and become even more radical. International sanctions are helping the Nkorea regim to keep his leadership. Bullying the fat ginger kid never made him work out and dye his hair,just hate everyone even more. The problem is you all are assuming we can, through commerce, modernize the people of NK. This will never happen, their propaganda is too good. Their people are fanatical. Withdrawing sanctions and extending further aid will only prolong the life of their political machine, and you can bet they will find some way to spin that into more hate towards the Western world. Short of military liberation, the best we can do is slowly bleed them to death and hope for a coup or revolution. The problem with a military liberation is.....what are you going to do with those 25 million people? The country barely has the infrastructure to feed itself now. It is a FAMINE state, it survives only on food aid. I never said military liberation or withholding aid are good ideas, they're simply the best we've got in the current situation. If you have a much better idea, I'm sure the global community will be ecstatic to hear it.
You would think, but unfortunately they have their own interests to consider.
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On November 25 2010 01:37 Krigwin wrote:
The problem is you all are assuming we can, through commerce, modernize the people of NK. This will never happen, their propaganda is too good. Their people are fanatical. Withdrawing sanctions and extending further aid will only prolong the life of their political machine, and you can bet they will find some way to spin that into more hate towards the Western world. Short of military liberation, the best we can do is slowly bleed them to death and hope for a coup or revolution.
I'm not as pessimistic as you. The Chinese were able to do it, though admittedly their cult of personality was much weaker than what NK has, especially after the Cultural Revolution. In my opinion, the best way to fix NK is to have China start grooming a Korean Deng Xiao Ping, and pull some strings to have him become NK's next leader.
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On November 25 2010 03:29 Krigwin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 03:09 ZerglingSoup wrote:On November 25 2010 01:37 Krigwin wrote:On November 25 2010 01:05 clementdudu wrote:On November 25 2010 00:59 KillerPenguin wrote:On November 24 2010 23:41 clementdudu wrote:On November 24 2010 19:03 ZerglingSoup wrote:
Even if China decided to launch an invasion, things would get very dangerous for everybody.
I think the sanctions should be slowly reversed and the world should do their best to bring North Korea back into the fold, economically speaking. Slap the golden straight jacket on them and pump their coffers full of American dollars until they stop looking back, just like we did in China.
Unless the world community all of a sudden decides that the most optimal option is worth dying for, we ought to do the best with what we've got over there. WOW first good post in 90 pages? There is no way a military intervention is possible,and usage of nukes on Nkorea would mean that China/Japan would be hit too. Wait for Il to die,work with his son and smother them with goods/food/money. They'll never look back. It's thinking like this that creates criminals. We didn't pump money into china they created goods and sold them too us. You might as well suggest replacing punishment for criminals with food stamps. 30 more North Koreans will pop up when firing artillery at other nations gets you more money. and.....you just summed up what i think. I dont believe in criminal punishment(to some extent of course),i believe in rehabilitation. Ostracizing someone never made him think,just forced him to get more into his shell,and become even more radical. International sanctions are helping the Nkorea regim to keep his leadership. Bullying the fat ginger kid never made him work out and dye his hair,just hate everyone even more. The problem is you all are assuming we can, through commerce, modernize the people of NK. This will never happen, their propaganda is too good. Their people are fanatical. Withdrawing sanctions and extending further aid will only prolong the life of their political machine, and you can bet they will find some way to spin that into more hate towards the Western world. Short of military liberation, the best we can do is slowly bleed them to death and hope for a coup or revolution. It would be a slow process, no doubt, but its a matter of connecting their people to the outside world through economic integration until they slowwwly begin to see through the propaganda and demand changes in their society. You say the propaganda is "just too good", but it's these aggressive economic actions that give it the firepower it needs to sustain itself. You say we need to hope for a coup or revolution, but if the propaganda is indeed as good as you say, we won't get that unless we can directly communicate with the people. People are very sensitive to the casualties that war inflicts, but our economic aggression in this situation is damaging too, as it gives these brutal little dictators a kind of warped moral authority in the eyes of their populace. Who is to say that extending aid won't also give the regime what it needs to sustain itself? They could spin it in any number of ways. Also, please elaborate on how we can "connect" their people to the outside world through economic integration. The very information these people are given access to is controlled by the government, I don't see how shipping over more food will somehow change that, unless we come up with a way of directly trading and communicating with the people themselves, and if we could do that, we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place. Finally, the coup or revolution does not have to come from the population itself. When Il dies, perhaps his son or the other military leaders in charge will lead a face turn. However unlikely, it's a better solution to hope for than anything else we've got. There's no doubt that our economic actions are damaging, and strongly immoral as they are punitive to the population, many of whom are no doubt innocent, just brainwashed. But we're doing it in the hopes of the eventual collapse of the bigger evil, the regime, rather than indirectly sustaining them by simply providing more aid.
I don't say extend more aid. It's good but it won't change anything. North Korea has set up economic zones and even allows joint-ventures. It will be a while before, say, Americans can feel comfortable doing business there, but there are lots of western countries aren't resented as heavily who should be empowered to extend an olive branch. Joint-ventures are great because foreign businessmen get connected and collaborate with North Korean businessmen. Ideas get exchanged and the centralized government has to begin making certain allowances in order to grow their economy. In the meantime, NK currency is stabilized and hard currency is being moved in as NK factories sell their goods abroad.
Finally, how can we say these sanctions will collapse a regime, when they've only been making it stronger? It's much easier to "spin" economic aggression for propaganda purposes than it is to convince people that the nice foreigners they deal with directly are bad guys.
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On November 25 2010 02:11 Rflcrx wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 00:19 Hautamaki wrote:
=\ if you really don't believe us, why don't you try doing some research?
Actually I have, though it seems you didn't. First of all: A famine is only murder if you plan to start a famine. The famine during the great leap wasn't planned, it was, like I said, an unintended result of the great leap (of various local cadres who reported falls numbers to the administration/shipped the food they had to the cities). While all this is certainly horrible and no doubt, at the very least, in part, fault of Mao (this is questionable though as lower cadres were holding back information), it still isn't murder. My claimed 20 million seems to be a bit low (little mix up), I would revise that to 30 to 40 million (rather 30 million).
When your economic system requires the State to feed the people (because they are not allowed to grow food for themselves), and when they starve to death because you withheld food, then yes that is murder. Also, the famine was planned, and how could it not be when Stalin did the exact same thing to Ukraine in the 1930's.
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This is probably the worst source I've seen quoted on here. Keep up with the newest facts. The very fact you consider this a viable source means you haven't been.
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On November 25 2010 03:43 domovoi wrote:
I'm not as pessimistic as you. The Chinese were able to do it, though admittedly their cult of personality was much weaker than what NK has, especially after the Cultural Revolution. In my opinion, the best way to fix NK is to have China start grooming a Korean Deng Xiao Ping, and pull some strings to have him become NK's next leader.
It's not really pessimism, the population of the NK in comparison to China is much smaller (in terms of both numbers and size), the state religion is much more powerful, and the amount of control the regime can exert over the population is staggering. Plus, China's gameplan is to modernize and industrialize, the DPRK's gameplan is... well, apparently insanity.
Believe me I would be overjoyed to be proven dead wrong but it's hard to be hopeful given the scraps of news that get out of there.
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The latest from Voice of America:
http://www.voanews.com/english/news/US-Calls-North-Korean-Artillery-Strike-Armistice-Violation-But-Not-Prelude-to-War-110428464.html
State Department Spokesman P.J. Crowley told reporters the United States is engaged in wide-ranging diplomacy with China and others in the aftermath of the artillery clash, and intends to raise the matter directly with North Korea in the armistice framework.
The spokesman rejected North Korea's claim it acted in self defense after South Korean shelling in a military exercise. He said North Korea attacked the South Korean island hours after the routine exercise ended, in an obviously premeditated act, but that there has been no sign of a broader aggressive move by the North.
"This was in our view a one-off, premeditated act," said Crowley. "Without getting into intelligence matters, we don't see that North Korea is preparing for an extended military confrontation. That's what makes it not a war. It is a violation of the armistice. Among other things, we will have a conversation with North Korean general officers and make clear that this is a violation of the armistice."
Not sure why the dude would reject the fact that it was a retaliation simply because it took a few hours to happen...
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Uh, guys - you might wanna check this out. Satellite images of something rather ominous, it would appear.
http://www.janes.com/news/defence/jdw/jdw101124_1_n.shtml
From the article,
"US nuclear scientist Dr Sig Hecker has confirmed Jane's reports of activity at Yongbyon Nuclear Complex in North Korea and revealed that a state-of-the-art uranium enrichment plant is in operation at the site."
"Jane" is referring to the satellite, it seems.
EDIT: This might be old news. ><
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EPT
