On November 24 2010 19:03 ZerglingSoup wrote: Even if China decided to launch an invasion, things would get very dangerous for everybody.
I think the sanctions should be slowly reversed and the world should do their best to bring North Korea back into the fold, economically speaking. Slap the golden straight jacket on them and pump their coffers full of American dollars until they stop looking back, just like we did in China.
Unless the world community all of a sudden decides that the most optimal option is worth dying for, we ought to do the best with what we've got over there.
WOW first good post in 90 pages? There is no way a military intervention is possible,and usage of nukes on Nkorea would mean that China/Japan would be hit too. Wait for Il to die,work with his son and smother them with goods/food/money. They'll never look back.
It's thinking like this that creates criminals. We didn't pump money into china they created goods and sold them too us. You might as well suggest replacing punishment for criminals with food stamps. 30 more North Koreans will pop up when firing artillery at other nations gets you more money.
and.....you just summed up what i think.
I dont believe in criminal punishment(to some extent of course),i believe in rehabilitation. Ostracizing someone never made him think,just forced him to get more into his shell,and become even more radical. International sanctions are helping the Nkorea regim to keep his leadership.
Bullying the fat ginger kid never made him work out and dye his hair,just hate everyone even more.
The problem is you all are assuming we can, through commerce, modernize the people of NK. This will never happen, their propaganda is too good. Their people are fanatical. Withdrawing sanctions and extending further aid will only prolong the life of their political machine, and you can bet they will find some way to spin that into more hate towards the Western world. Short of military liberation, the best we can do is slowly bleed them to death and hope for a coup or revolution.
The problem with a military liberation is.....what are you going to do with those 25 million people? The country barely has the infrastructure to feed itself now. It is a FAMINE state, it survives only on food aid.
On November 24 2010 19:03 ZerglingSoup wrote: Even if China decided to launch an invasion, things would get very dangerous for everybody.
I think the sanctions should be slowly reversed and the world should do their best to bring North Korea back into the fold, economically speaking. Slap the golden straight jacket on them and pump their coffers full of American dollars until they stop looking back, just like we did in China.
Unless the world community all of a sudden decides that the most optimal option is worth dying for, we ought to do the best with what we've got over there.
WOW first good post in 90 pages? There is no way a military intervention is possible,and usage of nukes on Nkorea would mean that China/Japan would be hit too. Wait for Il to die,work with his son and smother them with goods/food/money. They'll never look back.
It's thinking like this that creates criminals. We didn't pump money into china they created goods and sold them too us. You might as well suggest replacing punishment for criminals with food stamps. 30 more North Koreans will pop up when firing artillery at other nations gets you more money.
and.....you just summed up what i think.
I dont believe in criminal punishment(to some extent of course),i believe in rehabilitation. Ostracizing someone never made him think,just forced him to get more into his shell,and become even more radical. International sanctions are helping the Nkorea regim to keep his leadership.
Bullying the fat ginger kid never made him work out and dye his hair,just hate everyone even more.
The problem is you all are assuming we can, through commerce, modernize the people of NK. This will never happen, their propaganda is too good. Their people are fanatical. Withdrawing sanctions and extending further aid will only prolong the life of their political machine, and you can bet they will find some way to spin that into more hate towards the Western world. Short of military liberation, the best we can do is slowly bleed them to death and hope for a coup or revolution.
The problem with a military liberation is.....what are you going to do with those 25 million people? The country barely has the infrastructure to feed itself now. It is a FAMINE state, it survives only on food aid.
I never said military liberation or withholding aid are good ideas, they're simply the best we've got in the current situation. If you have a much better idea, I'm sure the global community will be ecstatic to hear it.
On November 25 2010 01:19 XiaoJoyce- wrote: Ah, it is so way past my bed time... I got to wake up early tml.
But this is so interesting.
Because it is so sensitive, and I have a feeling war might happen if more things go wrong.
I have a roommate from S.Korea, she shows a lil bit of worry just now and talk to me about this, then I know this incident.
I think she is worried because of it involves military? and war. Especially because of some changes in politics in N.Korea.
Ah, I try to tell her not to worry, S.Korea has many friends, and US back up, and N.Korea do not want war because most likely lose. China is not supporting...I talk alot shit.
One part of me, wondering if both of them fight, went to war.. I checked the N.Korea airforce, S.Korea air force. Their fighter planes ( That is all I know keke)
And just close my eyes and imagine things. Ah...I know it isn't so nice to think about war, real fight who will win..
But I just cannot help it. Maybe I should just think, BoxeR vs Terran, who will win.
South Korea would sustain many losses if North Korea decided to invade. Even the garrisoned US trooped would be barreled over by North Korean advance, but the follow up forces from the US would crush all North Korean opposition. I only hope that it doesn't come to that. If we can avoid this, then we should do so.
On November 25 2010 01:19 XiaoJoyce- wrote: Ah, it is so way past my bed time... I got to wake up early tml.
But this is so interesting.
Because it is so sensitive, and I have a feeling war might happen if more things go wrong.
I have a roommate from S.Korea, she shows a lil bit of worry just now and talk to me about this, then I know this incident.
I think she is worried because of it involves military? and war. Especially because of some changes in politics in N.Korea.
Ah, I try to tell her not to worry, S.Korea has many friends, and US back up, and N.Korea do not want war because most likely lose. China is not supporting...I talk alot shit.
One part of me, wondering if both of them fight, went to war.. I checked the N.Korea airforce, S.Korea air force. Their fighter planes ( That is all I know keke)
And just close my eyes and imagine things. Ah...I know it isn't so nice to think about war, real fight who will win..
But I just cannot help it. Maybe I should just think, BoxeR vs Terran, who will win.
I wish I could give your friend good news, but while S Korea and its allies would win there wouldn't be much of S Korea left afterwards.
It is true that modern Generation 4.5 aircraft can kill gen 4 aircraft by the dozens, I think Korea still uses some gen 3, and Gen 5 aircraft "F22 Raptor" are untouchable even to Gen 4.5 the problem isn't air superiourity. The last report I heard from stated that due to the shear volume of artillery in N Korea it would take several weeks before the last artillery peice was silenced. In the mean time most of the northern half of SK would be riddled with conventional and chemical shells.
N Korea would lose, but not before thousands, maybe millions, of civilians died. Not a pleasant thought.
Sorry, I was wrong to think about war.. Before you two write, I thought it will be one sided war.. because N.Korea is using older generation aircraft, and their economy is not doing well, requires food aid, and all those etc...friends..etc..etc..
After reading feedback from you all, I realised I think too simple, just like watching starcraft 2 I can only understand some simple stuffs.
Maybe I watch too much SC2, that is why I am interested on what happen if war break out.
Ah, now I don't want to know what will happen. Just want the Earth to spin peacefully and nothing else happens after this
There's no hope in hell any ground based military will invade SK or NKR, from either side, the DMZ has the worlds largest concentration of land mines in the world, and anyone stupid enough to step over it would be shot, on top of which you would get NATO immediately involved because the DMZ is becoming a world heritage site due to lack of human interaction the ecosystem in there is completely unique. Meaning the only other options would be, long ranged artillery, naval, and air based operations.
I hope to whatever higher power there is that NKR is not dumb enough to use a nuke, because the US would send in their nukes, and because this is all happening in China's back yard China would fire their nukes, making Russia fire theirs so on and so forth .... M.A.D.
Any Naval operations would happen close to both Japan's and China's waters or just China, a fuster cluck of grossness would go down in their probably ruining all US relations with Japan/China so the US wouldn't get involved in a Naval operation. However if NKR decides to come down with their navy SK is already so on edge they'd be blown out of the water retaliation after retaliation escalates and because the capitals are with conventional artillery range of each other. All in china's back yard (again).
Air operations would play out in the same fashion in China's back yard, planes over the NKR border into china, makes China come down there and god knows how the US will be involved with this one.
Biological warfare is another deadly option that would bring around MAD because a genetically engineered virus could start spreading through S/N-KR and a country with nukes, US, Israel, Russia, China, etc, would most likely want to 'sterilize the region' and napalm and nuke the BGEES-US out of the place in fear of what kind of damage that virus could do, starting again the cycle of MAD.
So any sort of military invasive retaliation from SK would be entirely unreasonable, meaning the best they can do right now is turtle hard until NKR mines out their main (runs out of money, food, etc) and collapses. From their IDK what would happen, maybe talks of the countries rejoining, maybe NKR could get a democracy, maybe the UN could help rebuild NKR the same way they did Japan after WWII. It's pretty scary and I hope that SK doesn't do anything to rash.
On November 25 2010 00:19 Hautamaki wrote: =\ if you really don't believe us, why don't you try doing some research?
Actually I have, though it seems you didn't. First of all: A famine is only murder if you plan to start a famine. The famine during the great leap wasn't planned, it was, like I said, an unintended result of the great leap (of various local cadres who reported falls numbers to the administration/shipped the food they had to the cities). While all this is certainly horrible and no doubt, at the very least, in part, fault of Mao (this is questionable though as lower cadres were holding back information), it still isn't murder. My claimed 20 million seems to be a bit low (little mix up), I would revise that to 30 to 40 million (rather 30 million).
Congressman Ron Paul speculated on the Alex Jones Show today that the war footing between North and South Korea could be an orchestrated crisis to boost the dollar and reverse the US economy, paralleling the RAND Corporation’s call two years ago for the United States to become embroiled in a major war as a means of preventing a double dip recession.
South Korea admitted that it fired the first shots prompting a North Korean retaliation that killed two South Korean Marines and set ablaze many homes on the Yellow Sea border island of Yeonpyeong. [OMG PROVE IT: ]
Tensions are running dangerously high after North Korea’s military vowed a “merciless military strike” and South Korean President Lee Myung-bak ordered his military to strike North Korea’s missile base around its coastline artillery positions if the North made any further moves. Japan announced that it was preparing for “any eventuality” while Russia said the events represented a “colossal danger” to peace in the region.
Speaking to the Alex Jones Show, Congressman Paul said it was frightening that people in the Obama administration were advocating war as a means of escaping the economic crisis, saying that North Korea stood no chance whatsoever of successfully defeating South Korea in any conflict.
Paul speculated that the US military-industrial complex was, “Doing it deliberately, and sort of orchestrating this in order to have the military-industrial complex benefit and the dollar temporarily benefit.”
Chinese media sources reported that RAND had presented a proposal to the Pentagon that revolved around fostering a conflict with a major foreign power in order to stimulate the American economy and prevent a double dip recession.
Although at the time RAND considered North Korea on its own to be too small a target, any full scale confrontation between the Koreas would embroil the United States on the side of the South and China on the side of the North. If North Korea were to tap its arsenal of nuclear weapons, the entire international community would quickly rubber stamp a US-led military assault on the rogue nation.
The military-industrial complex have already got enough money being channeled to 'em from the two wars the States is in simultaneously. Besides, what's South Korea got to gain from that?
On November 25 2010 02:29 bonifaceviii wrote: The military-industrial complex have already got enough money being channeled to 'em from the two wars the States is in simultaneously. Besides, what's South Korea got to gain from that?
Not everything is a conspiracy, even though a lot is.
Just ignore the obvious troll. Report him and walk away because it's not worth a reply.
South Korea fired artillery shells into the sea, NONE of them hit the anything other than water. Also the military drill was routine by South Korea, it had nothing to do with the United States. This is not a conspiracy.
I really love Ron Paul, but i wish he would stay away from Alex Jones and any more conspiracy theories.
For all the people saying that military attacks are the answer or if NK did try to nuke or invade SK America would fight back.
I highly doubt it, see the difference between the NK and the US is that the US does not have the political will to use their military, the NK however does and will. That's the difference between the NK, and most of the western world, and that's the one that will lead it into the ground. And btw guy who said China invading Taiwan would hurt the Chinese economy, you're wrong. It would kill the American economy because China has bought the MOST of any country to purchase America's debt, if they start buying then America no longer has money to spend.
Franlky a convential war with North Korea is impossible. To do so would mean the destruction of Seoul and all its inhabitants. North Korea litterally has enough artillery pointed and ranged in on the S. Korean capital that once hostilities start the city would be leveled within hours.
Everyone knows that if full scale war did break out this would be the North's first action, and it is an action that every one wants to avoid so we will avoid war at all costs. Quite frankly, North Korea knows that this deterrent exists and are willing to be a beligerent because they know we will never use force to stop them. Yes, while we can continue to pile on sanctions they will never be trully effective as long as China is a willing trade partner with them.
So, the only real way that North Korea will ever be reigned in is if China does so. North Korea acts so brazinly because they know China will always be there to back them up, like the little kid that picks fights on the play ground and then runs to their big brother when they person the picked on fights back.
If China wants to be taken seriously as a growing power, then it needs to step up and show the world it can lead in situations where they have to. This would be a great place for them to start. Although, considering the U.S. just agreed to a 6 Billion dollar arms deal with Taiwan, which China is furious about, I can only assume that China enjoys watching us dance.
On November 24 2010 19:03 ZerglingSoup wrote: Even if China decided to launch an invasion, things would get very dangerous for everybody.
I think the sanctions should be slowly reversed and the world should do their best to bring North Korea back into the fold, economically speaking. Slap the golden straight jacket on them and pump their coffers full of American dollars until they stop looking back, just like we did in China.
Unless the world community all of a sudden decides that the most optimal option is worth dying for, we ought to do the best with what we've got over there.
WOW first good post in 90 pages? There is no way a military intervention is possible,and usage of nukes on Nkorea would mean that China/Japan would be hit too. Wait for Il to die,work with his son and smother them with goods/food/money. They'll never look back.
Indeed. Sanctions only entrench and empower the propaganda machines. Higher economic integration would quickly pull the shroud off of the Il regime and create the kind of political unrest needed to move the country forward.
The US does plenty of business with China, despite our objections to human rights abuses it Tibet, etc., so I don't see why it should be any different for NK. Granted the abuses are far more egregious, but cutting them off with sanctions only seems to make those abuses more severe.
Okay, so SK did fire the first shots? But at WHAT? They were conducting an exercise, correct? If so, obviously they fired the first shots.
I'm unclear if they're saying "Yeah, we fired on NK before they fired on us" or if it's a matter of SK conducting an exercise, NK going apeshit and shooting at a civilian fishing community.
I never understood why SK has to do its military games or artillery firing schedules so close to the NK border. I'm sure there's a factor of pride or posturing in there, but it's just poking an already angry beast. Sure SK didn't fire onto the land of NK or did it fire into the water territory of NK, but it's just the excuse that NK would need to do something drastic in order to extort more aid out of SK or other Western nations.
On November 25 2010 02:43 LazyMacro wrote: Okay, so SK did fire the first shots? But at WHAT? They were conducting an exercise, correct? If so, obviously they fired the first shots.
I'm unclear if they're saying "Yeah, we fired on NK before they fired on us" or if it's a matter of SK conducting an exercise, NK going apeshit and shooting at a civilian fishing community.
They said they fired those at the water, outside of NK's borderline. But who the hell knows if they actually calculated it wrong or something and it hitted the land, or something.
There was a "statement" i would say, by NK that they have casualties because of the firing drill. Nothing proven though.. So NK answered to the fire.
But i don't really understand why SK needs to do these war drills so close to NK border. They are playing with a fire here. Though NK took this to another level, no doubt about that.
On November 25 2010 02:40 Gutrot wrote: If China wants to be taken seriously as a growing power, then it needs to step up and show the world it can lead in situations where they have to. This would be a great place for them to start. Although, considering the U.S. just agreed to a 6 Billion dollar arms deal with Taiwan, which China is furious about, I can only assume that China enjoys watching us dance.
It's more than mere retaliation. China has expressed that they do want to trust the US, but how can you trust someone who is arming subversive threats to your government? I don't think the US understands how damaging and unnecessary these arms deals with Taiwan are atm. Especially when we need their trust to deal with NK. I understand the alliance with Taiwan, but we can help them out in other ways besides stuffing more weapons in the channel.
That is pretty sad. You'd think she'd at least know the basics...like, you know, who her country is allied with. I guess that isn't a requirement anymore to be in a political position.
EPT
