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Hard to quantify evil, but if you read, for example, 'Mao, the Untold Story' your blood will be chilled. There are documented discussions, letters, minutes of meetings, etc, in which Mao is quoted acknowledging that his 5 year plans would result in the death by starvation of 30 million Chinese. There is also documented evidence of his ordering torture/murder quotas fulfilled by local party chiefs. Those who failed to meet the quotas (generally 2-5% of the population per year, totaling around 10% of the total population) were added to the list. These techniques are still used by Kim Jong Il today. People are not 'disappeared' in the middle of the night tidily eliminated far from the safe and secure middle class. That's scary and evil but it's not the worst. The worst is being forced to write self-condemnations every day detailing everything negative they thought or said and everything negative they heard said by others and turning them into the local party cadres for analysis, then being called to mass rallies once a week or so to witness the torture and murder of those who committed thought-crimes (either by their own written admission, or by failing to admit what someone else wrote that they said). People were not gassed to death in booby trapped shower rooms, nor were they generally even killed by firing squad. Most were beaten to a bloody pulp, forced to admit their crimes and condemn others in the crowd (who were then likewise dragged up and similarly tortured), had their limbs systematically broken, fingernails pulled off, hot pokers applied all over their body (and I do mean all over), doused with boiling water, and anything else the sickest and most twisted minds could imagine. Those who didn't crack (or couldn't crack convincingly/didn't appear to be sincerely condemning others but just saying anything to get out of being tortured) were generally continuously tortured for days with their screams and pleas played out over loudspeakers for everyone in the area to hear day and night.
This actually happened for years, when Mao was brainwashing his initial party core in the early 1940s (and selling out the Nationalists to the Japanese by avoiding all conflict with them and even providing them with intelligence), and then again during the cultural revolution of the 60's, which was a backlash against party elites that stalled his Great Leap Forward (which resulted in the starvation of 30-35 million). Another 30 million then died not of starvation but of torture and summary execution in these mass condemnation rallies.
The eyes of the older Chinese people, those who lived through those times, are still haunted. It's chilling to look at an old person, one of the ones who made it through that, and realize that this person not only certainly suffered crippling poverty and crushing fear for decades, but also likely carries around the guilt of having had a hand in the awful death of a neighbor, a teacher, perhaps even a family member.
China knows all too well the cost of the brand of communism practiced in North Korea. That book was written by Mao (literally) and the citizens of North Korea are, as we speak, universally and deeply psychologically damaged. These are people who will mostly likely never fully recover from their scars, might never be able to fully and properly integrate into modern society, and would likely be a permanent, destitute refugee underclass wherever they wound up after a North Korean government collapse. China is more afraid of being flooded with 10-20 million such refugees than they are of anything else. They will keep kicking the North Korean can down the road as long as they can because the consequences of war and collapse in North Korea is unthinkable to China. Westerners can condemn China's non-stance on North Korea but does the west have the resources and willingness to deal with proper cleanup in North Korea? The evidence of Afghanistan and Iraq suggest otherwise =[
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On November 24 2010 22:55 RoosterSamurai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 22:44 ShadeR wrote:On November 24 2010 22:38 RoosterSamurai wrote:On November 24 2010 20:45 Hautamaki wrote:On November 24 2010 20:22 speedphlux wrote:On November 24 2010 19:29 annYeong(o11) wrote:
...
Kim Jong Ill is at teh end of his reign, will his son be as bat-shit insane?
... Well, he should be insane. If you take a look at recent eastern Europe's situation, there was a lot of insanity from their commie leaders. Around 1960-1970, the bulgarian com-party decieded to make a freaking sea next to our capital city of Sofia. If you take a look at the map of Bulgaria, you won't need much brain-power to see that this is impossible. Around 10-15 years later, our Romanian mates build the world's most insane building "The Ceauşescu's palace" (nowdays the Romanian Parliament). Need more ? How about Stallin killing 6-8 million russians in the midst of WWII ? Or the infamous Chinese "cultural revolution" (when they banned and nearly destroyed everything "old") ? Being a commie fuck = pretty darn insane. That's the scary part of the whole conflict. The only way you can really negotiate with a commie, is by shooting him in the head first and then start asking questions. There's no arguing that communism was the greatest evil of the 20th century. Fascists like Hitler, Mussolini, and Pinochet were awful, awful human beings but they still pale in comparison to Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and the Kims of Korea. Mao, the real architect of the Korean War (he instigated it in order to pressure Stalin to give him ICBMs), actually murdered over 70 million Chinese in peacetime during his 27 year reign. It's a figure that makes Hitler's estimated 11 million death-camp casualties look like child's play =[ Also, before the beginning of WW2, Stalin starved 23,000,000 Russians to death in the purges of Ukraine. Communism is simply economic policy. Totalitarian social structures = deaths, not economic policy. It doesn't change the fact that all communist governments are, or at some point have been totalitarians. Cubans, Vietnamese, Russians, North Koreans, and the Chinese were all, at one point, evil to their people. And they were all communists....
Not to defend or attack communism but i just feel your singling out communist/leftist based dictatorships.
Can't it just be left at "generally totalitarian systems of government are bad" rather than rage screaming fkingngng commies.
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On November 24 2010 23:04 Uriel_SVK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 22:08 Crackensan wrote:
BBC confirmed 2 civilian deaths in yesterdays attack. Two older construction workers were found dead in the aftermath of the barrage after the fires died out.
There is no excuse for N. Korea to be firing on civilian targets. Even less excuse for for them to have been firing on S. Korea in the first goddamned place. They were not firing on civilians, from what I read they were targeting army base on that island. Civilian casaulities might be result of bad aim, or collateral damage, but I do not believe they would be primary target. I think there would be much more deaths if NK decided to fire on civilian targets.
They may or may not have decided to purposefully fire on civilian targets. However, looking at the aftermath, anyone firing that many rounds on the island must have known that civilian lives would have been put at risk.
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"N. Korea again blames S. Korea for deadly artillery attacks"
SEOUL, Nov. 24 (Yonhap) -- North Korea on Wednesday reiterated its earlier claim that South Korea initiated Tuesday's exchange of artillery shells that killed four and injured 18 others on a South Korean border island.
"The enemies, despite our repeated warnings, eventually committed extremely reckless military provocations of firing artillery shells into our maritime territory near Yeonpyeong Island beginning 1 p.m. Tuesday," an unnamed spokesman for the North's foreign ministry said.
http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/news/2010/11/24/0200000000AEN20101124014200315.HTML
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Oh dear, I just read the news now...
94 pages. ah...I feel like reading all of them..
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On November 24 2010 22:56 thoradycus wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 22:42 Rflcrx wrote:On November 24 2010 20:45 Hautamaki wrote:
Mao, the real architect of the Korean War (he instigated it in order to pressure Stalin to give him ICBMs), actually murdered over 70 million Chinese in peacetime during his 27 year reign. It's a figure that makes Hitler's estimated 11 million death-camp casualties look like child's play =[ I can think of the hundret flowers movement were mao orderd the death of a couple of thousand intellectuals, aside from that..who did he directly murder/order murder? Because you have 69 million more people murdered.. Cultural revolution,persecution in general,and the numerous famines etc caused by the Great Leap Foward.
Murder wasn't the primary damage in the cultural revolution, wasn't even ordered by mao in any way, persecution in general..uh uhm yeah..numerous famines? I can only think of the big on due to the great leap, but that were ~20 million, not ordered by mao (was a sideproduct out of stupidity, I doubt anybody planned the famine).
Still missing 68 million
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@ ShadeR :
Point is - Communism is flawed. And it's also the base for those totalitarian systems that are bad. Note also that not all totalitarian systems are bad, while all communist countries, minus China currently, are.
First off, let me clear why China isn't "bad" at the moment. Because Communism is actually a financial system, where the state sets the prizes. That's not how things work in China. There's actually a pretty fresh stream of Capitalism flowing in and out of this country right now.
Now let's go back at the "bad commies" and why this system is flawed and can't never work. As I've said - the state dictates the prizes of things. Even in a perfect for communism world, where every single country is under a communist system, without a treat from "foreign influence", this system still won't work. Why ? Because you need the market to be competitive to be productive. And you're actually killing the competition, because noone is allowed to change their prizes. Even if they try to fake it, they will fail because that's not how you make profit. Because everything is state property and state cost, it's basically costing the same amount to be produced, so selling it at different prizes won't create competitive market. What it will do, is create a Black Market.
Why Black Market ? Because everyone who considers Communism to be a good idea, forgets one major factor about it.
The human factor. I'm sorry, but if you're going to have a communism state, you'll need a government to apply, alter and oversee the rules. That means - there will be humans in charge. Now take a look at the history of communist leaders and give me the name of one sane and healthy person ? I can give you one - Alexander Dubček. And sadly, that's about it. Why is it like that you think ? I believe it's because communism can be only forced upon people by power-hungry humans and those people are sick. Mentally, physically ... any possible way imaginable. And you'll also notice the term I've used - forced upon. Because believe me, once you've tasted communism, you'll want to go back. It is simply not logical to like communism, once you've seen it. Believe me, I've spend my first 8 years under a commie state and thou, communism is pretty nice and safe place to be in, for a kid that is, I still have brain scars imprinted on my memory that will hunt me down as long as I breath. But once into a communist state, you can't really get out of it. You might want it differently, but you won't get it. They'll have secret police looking out for everyone who might be a potential treat to the system. These secret police officers will be within your friends and possibly family. They'll record every joke you say about whoever's in charge, but they'll laugh with you, instigating you on purpose to continue joking.
You really should be glad you don't come from where I come from. Just think about what would've happened to you, if you were a north-korean who made a joke about your government. Or just say that financially, communism isn't sane.
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On November 24 2010 19:03 ZerglingSoup wrote:
Even if China decided to launch an invasion, things would get very dangerous for everybody.
I think the sanctions should be slowly reversed and the world should do their best to bring North Korea back into the fold, economically speaking. Slap the golden straight jacket on them and pump their coffers full of American dollars until they stop looking back, just like we did in China.
Unless the world community all of a sudden decides that the most optimal option is worth dying for, we ought to do the best with what we've got over there.
WOW first good post in 90 pages?
There is no way a military intervention is possible,and usage of nukes on Nkorea would mean that China/Japan would be hit too.
Wait for Il to die,work with his son and smother them with goods/food/money.
They'll never look back.
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On November 24 2010 23:13 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 22:55 RoosterSamurai wrote:On November 24 2010 22:44 ShadeR wrote:On November 24 2010 22:38 RoosterSamurai wrote:On November 24 2010 20:45 Hautamaki wrote:On November 24 2010 20:22 speedphlux wrote:On November 24 2010 19:29 annYeong(o11) wrote:
...
Kim Jong Ill is at teh end of his reign, will his son be as bat-shit insane?
... Well, he should be insane. If you take a look at recent eastern Europe's situation, there was a lot of insanity from their commie leaders. Around 1960-1970, the bulgarian com-party decieded to make a freaking sea next to our capital city of Sofia. If you take a look at the map of Bulgaria, you won't need much brain-power to see that this is impossible. Around 10-15 years later, our Romanian mates build the world's most insane building "The Ceauşescu's palace" (nowdays the Romanian Parliament). Need more ? How about Stallin killing 6-8 million russians in the midst of WWII ? Or the infamous Chinese "cultural revolution" (when they banned and nearly destroyed everything "old") ? Being a commie fuck = pretty darn insane. That's the scary part of the whole conflict. The only way you can really negotiate with a commie, is by shooting him in the head first and then start asking questions. There's no arguing that communism was the greatest evil of the 20th century. Fascists like Hitler, Mussolini, and Pinochet were awful, awful human beings but they still pale in comparison to Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and the Kims of Korea. Mao, the real architect of the Korean War (he instigated it in order to pressure Stalin to give him ICBMs), actually murdered over 70 million Chinese in peacetime during his 27 year reign. It's a figure that makes Hitler's estimated 11 million death-camp casualties look like child's play =[ Also, before the beginning of WW2, Stalin starved 23,000,000 Russians to death in the purges of Ukraine. Communism is simply economic policy. Totalitarian social structures = deaths, not economic policy. It doesn't change the fact that all communist governments are, or at some point have been totalitarians. Cubans, Vietnamese, Russians, North Koreans, and the Chinese were all, at one point, evil to their people. And they were all communists.... Not to defend or attack communism but i just feel your singling out communist/leftist based dictatorships. Can't it just be left at "generally totalitarian systems of government are bad" rather than rage screaming fkingngng commies.
History proves that Communism has always been a totalitarian form of government, so no, you will not be able to convince me that the communists are anything other than evil.
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On November 24 2010 23:44 RoosterSamurai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 23:13 ShadeR wrote:On November 24 2010 22:55 RoosterSamurai wrote:On November 24 2010 22:44 ShadeR wrote:On November 24 2010 22:38 RoosterSamurai wrote:On November 24 2010 20:45 Hautamaki wrote:On November 24 2010 20:22 speedphlux wrote:On November 24 2010 19:29 annYeong(o11) wrote:
...
Kim Jong Ill is at teh end of his reign, will his son be as bat-shit insane?
... Well, he should be insane. If you take a look at recent eastern Europe's situation, there was a lot of insanity from their commie leaders. Around 1960-1970, the bulgarian com-party decieded to make a freaking sea next to our capital city of Sofia. If you take a look at the map of Bulgaria, you won't need much brain-power to see that this is impossible. Around 10-15 years later, our Romanian mates build the world's most insane building "The Ceauşescu's palace" (nowdays the Romanian Parliament). Need more ? How about Stallin killing 6-8 million russians in the midst of WWII ? Or the infamous Chinese "cultural revolution" (when they banned and nearly destroyed everything "old") ? Being a commie fuck = pretty darn insane. That's the scary part of the whole conflict. The only way you can really negotiate with a commie, is by shooting him in the head first and then start asking questions. There's no arguing that communism was the greatest evil of the 20th century. Fascists like Hitler, Mussolini, and Pinochet were awful, awful human beings but they still pale in comparison to Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and the Kims of Korea. Mao, the real architect of the Korean War (he instigated it in order to pressure Stalin to give him ICBMs), actually murdered over 70 million Chinese in peacetime during his 27 year reign. It's a figure that makes Hitler's estimated 11 million death-camp casualties look like child's play =[ Also, before the beginning of WW2, Stalin starved 23,000,000 Russians to death in the purges of Ukraine. Communism is simply economic policy. Totalitarian social structures = deaths, not economic policy. It doesn't change the fact that all communist governments are, or at some point have been totalitarians. Cubans, Vietnamese, Russians, North Koreans, and the Chinese were all, at one point, evil to their people. And they were all communists.... Not to defend or attack communism but i just feel your singling out communist/leftist based dictatorships. Can't it just be left at "generally totalitarian systems of government are bad" rather than rage screaming fkingngng commies. History proves that Communism has always been a totalitarian form of government, so no, you will not be able to convince me that the communists are anything other than evil.
communism is not a form of government.please stop.please
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On November 24 2010 23:13 ShadeR wrote:
Not to defend or attack communism but i just feel your singling out communist/leftist based dictatorships.
Can't it just be left at "generally totalitarian systems of government are bad" rather than rage screaming fkingngng commies.
well the amount of indiscriminate evil that communists are able to inflict on each other seems to be a unique function of the violent revolutionary philosophy espoused. Right-wing based systems are all about returning to a glorious past that was corrupted by an easily establishable minority (usually visible, sometimes also religious). They tend to promote and sustain a middle class and often times provide a comfortable life for said middle class (such as in Saddam's Iraq and Hitler's Germany--at least until the bombs started falling).
Communist totalitarian regimes on the other hand emphasize total destruction of the existing order. This destruction can be indefinitely sustained because by definition whatever order exists is the existing order and if it suits the whims of the leader, said order can be overthrown again. There is no specific minority to persecute--the persecuted is whoever might conceivably ever be a threat to the leader and thus the definition is completely fungible. Today's celebrated revolutionary could easily be tomorrow's hated counter-revolutionary. Communist ideology at its core is nothing more than rage of the have-nots against the haves and this rage can be eternally stoked because there will always be someone who has more than you do and people will always be willing to blame others for that state of affairs. It also means that any attempt at improving your own life only makes you a target if you are successful.
Communism also tends to involve the populace on a much more personal and active level--it is everyone's duty to be a good revolutionary first, and everything else comes after that. In right-wing regimes tacit support and approval of the government is expected but for the most part the majority of the people are freer to pursue goals and have values apart from the government. Communism requires total brainwashing of the entire population, and it happened (and still does in NK) on a scale and severity that even George Orwell underestimated.
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Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
It seems like most of the people here have no clue what communism is and just use it as a generic "evil empire" term o_O
None of the countries that you mention (China, Soviet Union etc.) have ever had communism, it was nothing more than a beautiful promise ("the next generation will live under communism") to keep the people from rebelling.
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On November 24 2010 23:54 Random() wrote:
It seems like most of the people here have no clue what communism is and just use it as a generic "evil empire" term o_O
None of the countries that you mention (China, Soviet Union etc.) have ever had communism, it was nothing more than a beautiful promise ("the next generation will live under communism") to keep the people from rebelling.
Most people are just really uneducated about communism, I mean nobody learns about it in dept at schools so are you really surprised
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On November 24 2010 23:51 Hautamaki wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 23:13 ShadeR wrote:
Not to defend or attack communism but i just feel your singling out communist/leftist based dictatorships.
Can't it just be left at "generally totalitarian systems of government are bad" rather than rage screaming fkingngng commies. well the amount of indiscriminate evil that communists are able to inflict on each other seems to be a unique function of the violent revolutionary philosophy espoused. Right-wing based systems are all about returning to a glorious past that was corrupted by an easily establishable minority (usually visible, sometimes also religious). They tend to promote and sustain a middle class and often times provide a comfortable life for said middle class (such as in Saddam's Iraq and Hitler's Germany--at least until the bombs started falling). Communist totalitarian regimes on the other hand emphasize total destruction of the existing order. This destruction can be indefinitely sustained because by definition whatever order exists is the existing order and if it suits the whims of the leader, said order can be overthrown again. There is no specific minority to persecute--the persecuted is whoever might conceivably ever be a threat to the leader and thus the definition is completely fungible. Today's celebrated revolutionary could easily be tomorrow's hated counter-revolutionary. Communist ideology at its core is nothing more than rage of the have-nots against the haves and this rage can be eternally stoked because there will always be someone who has more than you do and people will always be willing to blame others for that state of affairs. It also means that any attempt at improving your own life only makes you a target if you are successful. Communism also tends to involve the populace on a much more personal and active level--it is everyone's duty to be a good revolutionary first, and everything else comes after that. In right-wing regimes tacit support and approval of the government is expected but for the most part the majority of the people are freer to pursue goals and have values apart from the government. Communism requires total brainwashing of the entire population, and it happened (and still does in NK) on a scale and severity that even George Orwell underestimated.
a 1000 words to say:i dont know what communism is.
Next time just post that,it'll be faster for you and less annoying for those who know what it is.
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On November 25 2010 00:04 clementdudu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 23:51 Hautamaki wrote:On November 24 2010 23:13 ShadeR wrote:
Not to defend or attack communism but i just feel your singling out communist/leftist based dictatorships.
Can't it just be left at "generally totalitarian systems of government are bad" rather than rage screaming fkingngng commies. well the amount of indiscriminate evil that communists are able to inflict on each other seems to be a unique function of the violent revolutionary philosophy espoused. Right-wing based systems are all about returning to a glorious past that was corrupted by an easily establishable minority (usually visible, sometimes also religious). They tend to promote and sustain a middle class and often times provide a comfortable life for said middle class (such as in Saddam's Iraq and Hitler's Germany--at least until the bombs started falling). Communist totalitarian regimes on the other hand emphasize total destruction of the existing order. This destruction can be indefinitely sustained because by definition whatever order exists is the existing order and if it suits the whims of the leader, said order can be overthrown again. There is no specific minority to persecute--the persecuted is whoever might conceivably ever be a threat to the leader and thus the definition is completely fungible. Today's celebrated revolutionary could easily be tomorrow's hated counter-revolutionary. Communist ideology at its core is nothing more than rage of the have-nots against the haves and this rage can be eternally stoked because there will always be someone who has more than you do and people will always be willing to blame others for that state of affairs. It also means that any attempt at improving your own life only makes you a target if you are successful. Communism also tends to involve the populace on a much more personal and active level--it is everyone's duty to be a good revolutionary first, and everything else comes after that. In right-wing regimes tacit support and approval of the government is expected but for the most part the majority of the people are freer to pursue goals and have values apart from the government. Communism requires total brainwashing of the entire population, and it happened (and still does in NK) on a scale and severity that even George Orwell underestimated. a 1000 words to say:i dont know what communism is. Next time just post that,it'll be faster for you and less annoying for those who know what it is.
Were you an intelligent individual, and not some bratty french kid that took a polysci101 class and thinks they know everything about everything, you would have posted "what communism is" instead of making yourself look like a tool.
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On November 24 2010 23:54 Random() wrote:
It seems like most of the people here have no clue what communism is and just use it as a generic "evil empire" term o_O
None of the countries that you mention (China, Soviet Union etc.) have ever had communism, it was nothing more than a beautiful promise ("the next generation will live under communism") to keep the people from rebelling.
Indeed. I was simply trying to make the distinction between the two axis that form a country. Economic (leftist or rightist) and Social (authoritarian and libertarian).
Edit: But apparently i came off as trying to push the nonsensical claim that "communism is not evil" =P
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Alright people, stop commenting if communism is a government or if it isn't.
Point is - North Korea claims to be a communist state. Is it evil ? Fuck yeah !
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Were you an intelligent individual,and not some fat american kid that went to a utah college and thinks he knows evolution isnt true,you would understand english is not my first language and i have now idea what was wrong in my post.
edit:before temp ban
saying hes a fat american kid is not ok but saying that im a french brat is?
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On November 25 2010 00:14 clementdudu wrote:Were you an intelligent individual,and not some fat american kid that went to a utah college and thinks he knows evolution isnt true,you would understand english is not my first language and i have now idea what was wrong in my post. edit:before temp ban saying hes a fat american kid is not ok but saying that im a french brat is?
I have no comment for you, because I am already 95% sure that you'll be temp banned for your post. That, in itself, will be satisfying enough.
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EPT
