On November 05 2010 04:33 Deadlyfish wrote: I like American politics, i think they're great. Hate how in europe you can pretty much only vote for socialists, it's ridiculous.
I always find it funny how Europeans think that american politics is made up of extremists and crazy people. I know many Europeans politicians that are just nutjobs or just plain stupid.
There is a reason America is the only superpower, they have great politicians. Probably the best in the world. In Europe it doesnt matter what you vote for, all you get is the same old politics, 60% taxes and all they never really do anything, they just argue about small things. And whenever there is an issue they all act like idiots, arguing instead of doing something. America does have its share of problems though, but they are nowhere near as bad as people make them out to be.
Lucky for me i dont live in Europe anymore :D
I hate people like you who discard socialism without really having had a taste for the benefits of it. Compare getting cancer in Sweden and in the US and then come back and say that socialism is crap. The only humanistic and morally right system is socialism.
As I've said earlier you can't really appreciate the socialistic way of life until you had some hardships in your life. The reason why I think everything else is wrong is that it so fucking egotistical who the fuck cares about money. The important thing in life is happiness, and money can't buy happiness putting a smile on someones face is what leads to true happiness and to be honest I am totally fine giving away most of my money if it benefits someone less fortunate and if I ever go though something terrible my country has got my back.
America has plenty of socialist constructs and laws in its society. Hell some states even have great socialized healthcare. America is not a purely capitalist state. America differs in that it is less socialist than a lot of european countries.
Making shitloads of money is good. Don't give my this hippie "money isn't important" crap. Money betters people's lives and gives us better technology, artwork, and videogames. Capitalism has its problems, but don't try to act like capitalism can't help people as well, because it really does.
Socialist countries have their share of economic issues as well, you know. If I'm not mistaken, France's unemployment rate may even be higher than ours.
Well, it isn't working very well. Considering how influential and wealthy USA is, you're clearly falling behind in social progress. For example, USA is currently ranked #35 in WISP, while the nordic countries has been top 5 for the past 40 years.
All of our politicians seem to have merged into the same personality who takes back handers and claim benefits to pay for their 4th house. Its also a basically a crime in the UK to speak out about our failed immigration policy. All our politicians are traitiors. Id say your system is brilliant compared to ours. George Bush might have been an absolute joke, but at least he loved his country and he actually had a personality.
On November 05 2010 04:33 Deadlyfish wrote: I like American politics, i think they're great. Hate how in europe you can pretty much only vote for socialists, it's ridiculous.
I always find it funny how Europeans think that american politics is made up of extremists and crazy people. I know many Europeans politicians that are just nutjobs or just plain stupid.
There is a reason America is the only superpower, they have great politicians. Probably the best in the world. In Europe it doesnt matter what you vote for, all you get is the same old politics, 60% taxes and all they never really do anything, they just argue about small things. And whenever there is an issue they all act like idiots, arguing instead of doing something. America does have its share of problems though, but they are nowhere near as bad as people make them out to be.
Lucky for me i dont live in Europe anymore :D
I hate people like you who discard socialism without really having had a taste for the benefits of it. Compare getting cancer in Sweden and in the US and then come back and say that socialism is crap. The only humanistic and morally right system is socialism.
As I've said earlier you can't really appreciate the socialistic way of life until you had some hardships in your life. The reason why I think everything else is wrong is that it so fucking egotistical who the fuck cares about money. The important thing in life is happiness, and money can't buy happiness putting a smile on someones face is what leads to true happiness and to be honest I am totally fine giving away most of my money if it benefits someone less fortunate and if I ever go though something terrible my country has got my back.
America has plenty of socialist constructs and laws in its society. America is not a purely capitalist state. America differs in that it is less socialist than a lot of european countries.
Making shitloads of money is good. It betters people's lives and gives us better technology, artwork, and videogames. Capitalism has its problems, but don't try to act like capitalism can't help people as well, because it really does.
Of course I don't think capitalism is shit. It's good and helps some sectors. But having a socialistic basis makes the country more humanistic and making money is of course good but it doesn't mean that all of it needs to go to you. Having a balance is the important part going to far left leads to communism although it's a great idea it will never work and has a lot of problems too. But having socialistic health care, education and law enforcement are essential for a country to be successful in the long run.
So really all we're arguing is a matter of degree. I personally want socialized medicine, good education, and law enforcement. I wouldn't say that makes me a socialist though. I just want an economic system that works, and that usually means a mixture of both. And we did just pass a huge healthcare bill, so we're just a little behind the times...
However, in America there's some sort of weird demonization of socialism which I don't really understand. I'd say it's a vocal minority, though.
Well, it isn't working very well. Considering how influential and wealthy USA is, you're clearly falling behind in social progress. For example, USA is currently ranked #35 in WISP, while the nordic countries has been top 5 for the past 40 years.
"Considering how influential and wealthy USA is" kind of negates your point if we're talking about economics here...
On November 05 2010 04:33 Deadlyfish wrote: I like American politics, i think they're great. Hate how in europe you can pretty much only vote for socialists, it's ridiculous.
I always find it funny how Europeans think that american politics is made up of extremists and crazy people. I know many Europeans politicians that are just nutjobs or just plain stupid.
There is a reason America is the only superpower, they have great politicians. Probably the best in the world. In Europe it doesnt matter what you vote for, all you get is the same old politics, 60% taxes and all they never really do anything, they just argue about small things. And whenever there is an issue they all act like idiots, arguing instead of doing something. America does have its share of problems though, but they are nowhere near as bad as people make them out to be.
Lucky for me i dont live in Europe anymore :D
I hate people like you who discard socialism without really having had a taste for the benefits of it. Compare getting cancer in Sweden and in the US and then come back and say that socialism is crap. The only humanistic and morally right system is socialism.
Why do you think i havent had a taste for socialism when i just said i had lived in Europe? I get free healthcare, but i think it sucks. Got cancer? np wait 6 months to get treatment because the system sucks. I'd much much much rather get cancer in America than in Sweden. Yes i have to pay, but atleast i get proper care, and i dont have to wait ½ a year for treatment. (dont know how it is in Sweden, this is just how it is in Denmark and the Netherlands).
I've lived in a country with 0% tax, and a country with 65% tax, i liked the 0% one better, simple as that. People often get angry though, when you tell them that you dont think socialism is a good thing.
The reason we get angry is because it's selfish thinking that yeah I am the most important person in the world and those kids who were born on the street should not get a chance in life because their parents aren't rich. It's just a bad system. I am not saying that our health care system is perfect but putting values on someones life is just inhuman. Saying that yeah I'll patch you up but only if you pay me X amount of dollars. For a really rich person of course it's more beneficial for you but if you look at the country as a whole it really isn't.
Uhh, people born on the street get a chance in life more so in America than in Europe.
The thing with socialism is, instead of only a few people getting bad healthcare, everyone gets it. America has the best healthcare in the world, obviously not everyone gets the best healthcare, but everyone gets treated, it's not like people die with cancer because doctors refuse treatment.
And also, i dont really care about drug addicts or lazy people, i dont want to pay them any money.
I think the most inhumane thing is having to wait 6 months before getting treated for cancer because there arent enough doctors to go around.
On November 05 2010 05:09 skurj wrote: I like how page 1 is "lol, America so stupid and crazy" and page 23 is "you guys have some good ideas, I just prefer different ideas". That's a lot better.
I like how in America people believe different things and can debate them and have a real choice between ideas. It seems like everybody in Europe all believes the same things.
yes, you have the choice between right and far right politics.
The dichotomy being brought up with "socialism" and "capitalism" is false, unless you're referring to Marx's definition of "socialism," which anyone with a brain would discard off the bat. Capitalism means capital being held in private hands, it does not reject the idea of taxation and wealth redistribution. In fact, many European countries have much less regulation than the US (i.e. they're more capitalist), but are also more "socialist" in the sense that they have a stronger social safety net.
So, in some sense, Europe is often more right-wing and left-wing than the US.
I mean, in the US, if you started to advocate for the privitization of the postal service, people would call you a Republican right-winger. Democrats would outright reject the idea as an attack on a core American value. Yet Sweden and Germany allow private delivery of mail.
Basically, it looks like most Europeans hate Republicans because sometimes it uses religious rhetoric to stir up its voters, but otherwise might agree with many of its policies (e.g. austerity). But do realize that the American law-making process is highly secular and religion has very little involvement outside of rhetorics.
"This guy promises change, he must be god! Let's vote for him, expect perfection and nirvana for all!" "Oh my god oil leak, this is totally his fault! He must be completely stupid!" "Oh god that guy was stupid, let's vote out everyone of the same party because they might agree with him."
Personally, I feel that they are from one end to another in a second, completely swingy and based on things that really do not matter. Also, from what I've seen, anyone that doesn't want to abolish the whole government is a communist.
On November 05 2010 05:09 skurj wrote: I like how page 1 is "lol, America so stupid and crazy" and page 23 is "you guys have some good ideas, I just prefer different ideas". That's a lot better.
I like how in America people believe different things and can debate them and have a real choice between ideas. It seems like everybody in Europe all believes the same things.
yes, you have the choice between right and far right politics.
I know that our left is considered right and our right is considered insane. This is a notion I find myself agreeing with. I also rage whenever someone advocates trickle down but whatever.
I find it pretty funny that Europeans are about as dumb as Americans when it comes to blindly passing judgment on other nations, pushing their own nation's government and social policies on others, and getting all their information from sensationalist news sources. In college I used to get in fights with assholes that said it was OK to invade Iraq because we are giving (forcing) democracy on them with no historical precedents to guide them and now I'm seeing Europeans telling us that we must have government run health care because they've had it for a while and omg it's a basic human right! It really demonstrates a lack of understanding of our political system, our history, and the nation itself.
We are not Europe. You can't just cut and paste European social policy onto the US and expect it work anywhere near as effectively or efficiently. America has a LOT of different demographics and is no where near as homogeneous as nations within Europe or Canada. It's impossible for politicians to accurately cover all the different political bends of every state in the US. Even going beyond the different races and immigrants, Americans themselves vary widely depending on where they are from. There simply is no one issue that all Americans agree on and that's why it's so hard to pass laws and progress in this nation. However, it does not mean that system is broken. With the exception of the crises that appear once in a while (like the current economic one), America has always been a successful country and genuinely good place to live.
Another thing europeans (and a lot of americans) seem to misunderstand is that our politics have ALWAYS been sensationalist. From the very beginning.
Yes it makes for good entertainment for media outlets (which is why it's so widely covered). But that's not all there is to politics, that's just all the media shows. So people get the wrong impression from all of this. Our government is actually very tame compared to some countries where parliaments get into fist fights. If you ever watch CSPAN, you'll realize that outside from the shouting that the media loves to make money off of, American politics is very dry and boring.
I'm frankly appalled that so many Europeans are exhibiting the same level of ignorance and ethnocentrism that I saw in my own countrymen during the Iraq war. You really shouldn't criticize other nations unless you actually know what's going on, not just what you see on TV and read on wikipedia.
On November 05 2010 04:33 Deadlyfish wrote: I like American politics, i think they're great. Hate how in europe you can pretty much only vote for socialists, it's ridiculous.
I always find it funny how Europeans think that american politics is made up of extremists and crazy people. I know many Europeans politicians that are just nutjobs or just plain stupid.
There is a reason America is the only superpower, they have great politicians. Probably the best in the world. In Europe it doesnt matter what you vote for, all you get is the same old politics, 60% taxes and all they never really do anything, they just argue about small things. And whenever there is an issue they all act like idiots, arguing instead of doing something. America does have its share of problems though, but they are nowhere near as bad as people make them out to be.
Lucky for me i dont live in Europe anymore :D
I hate people like you who discard socialism without really having had a taste for the benefits of it. Compare getting cancer in Sweden and in the US and then come back and say that socialism is crap. The only humanistic and morally right system is socialism.
Actually, America has some of the best cancer treatment and research centers in the world. Everyone seems to think we're just a bunch of whack jobs prescribing Viagra to each other.
It's not about the quality of the treatment it's that it's inhumane to deny people treatment because they don't have the money for it.
Every time I hear this I think of the several times I've been in the emergency room watching the uninsured use it as a doctor's office.
It's easy for a Swede to think they way you do because your country does things at a fundamental level so much better than we do. Particularly, your education system is about 10000x better than ours and your people live so much healthier lives. Combine those two facts with your comparatively low population and it's easy to see why you have such an easier time coming up with "free" public healthcare.
Our healthcare system is broken at such a fundamental level that I don't believe it's possible to institute a "European style" system without tearing everything down and building from the ground up. Take malpractice insurance, for example. A doctor has to spend half his income on this because the law allows them to be sued for tens of millions of dollars if they make a mistake. I really mean mistake here, I'm not talking gross negligence where the patient dies. So to cover this insurance healthcare costs rise collectively.
Americans are generally unhealthy people. We eat too much, too often, and too unhealthy foods. We don't exercise enough. We (still) smoke too much. The cost of providing healthcare for things caused by our collective unhealthiness is mind-boggling (certainly more than Sweden's entire GDP, for instance). Those of us that choose to live healthy lives aren't exactly thrilled by the prospect of subsidizing those who don't. After all, it's a choice. I don't want it to be someone else's choice to inefficiently spend my hard-earned money.
On November 05 2010 04:33 Deadlyfish wrote: I like American politics, i think they're great. Hate how in europe you can pretty much only vote for socialists, it's ridiculous.
I always find it funny how Europeans think that american politics is made up of extremists and crazy people. I know many Europeans politicians that are just nutjobs or just plain stupid.
There is a reason America is the only superpower, they have great politicians. Probably the best in the world. In Europe it doesnt matter what you vote for, all you get is the same old politics, 60% taxes and all they never really do anything, they just argue about small things. And whenever there is an issue they all act like idiots, arguing instead of doing something. America does have its share of problems though, but they are nowhere near as bad as people make them out to be.
Lucky for me i dont live in Europe anymore :D
I hate people like you who discard socialism without really having had a taste for the benefits of it. Compare getting cancer in Sweden and in the US and then come back and say that socialism is crap. The only humanistic and morally right system is socialism.
As I've said earlier you can't really appreciate the socialistic way of life until you had some hardships in your life. The reason why I think everything else is wrong is that it so fucking egotistical who the fuck cares about money. The important thing in life is happiness, and money can't buy happiness putting a smile on someones face is what leads to true happiness and to be honest I am totally fine giving away most of my money if it benefits someone less fortunate and if I ever go though something terrible my country has got my back.
America has plenty of socialist constructs and laws in its society. America is not a purely capitalist state. America differs in that it is less socialist than a lot of european countries.
Making shitloads of money is good. It betters people's lives and gives us better technology, artwork, and videogames. Capitalism has its problems, but don't try to act like capitalism can't help people as well, because it really does.
Of course I don't think capitalism is shit. It's good and helps some sectors. But having a socialistic basis makes the country more humanistic and making money is of course good but it doesn't mean that all of it needs to go to you. Having a balance is the important part going to far left leads to communism although it's a great idea it will never work and has a lot of problems too. But having socialistic health care, education and law enforcement are essential for a country to be successful in the long run.
So really all we're arguing is a matter of degree. I personally want socialized medicine, good education, and law enforcement. I wouldn't say that makes me a socialist though. I just want an economic system that works, and that usually means a mixture of both. And we did just pass a huge healthcare bill, so we're just a little behind the times...
Socialism isn't communism... And the health care bill although it's a step in right direction is nothing near perfect. Swedish health care isn't perfect I'd like to see more money put into it so that we can hire more doctors etc to reduce waiting times but I prefer our system to the one in the US.
we (foreigners) from everywhere see americans as belic producers and war lords =X but I guess even us citzens see their politics as such no ?(gone to us two times only so cant really tell) edit: ponctuation
The answer to why Swedes don't smoke as much. We have the least dangerous form of tobacco being the most popular way of getting your nicotine fix. If the US would get some Swedish snus and not that crappy camel snus I think it could help out a lot of people to get of smoking since the nicotine concentration is much higher than that in cigarettes.
Also I must say that all the apathy in this thread is really getting me down. Really people! really! do you actually think money is more important than helping others. That shit just contradicts everything that being human is about in my eyes.
I prefer the American system of health care (pre-Obamacare). I am 24 years old. I have basic catastrophic coverage (train wreck insurance), that has high deductibles in the event (although highly unlikely) that I get very sick or hurt. I pay 80 USD a month, and it covers some of the costs of prescriptions. I pay 40 USD per visit to go to the doctor THAT DAY, and would never have to wait for surgery if my life was at risk. My family doctor is awesome, and I wouldn't trade him for anything. So yes, I would rather pay for my own health insurance than pay for mine and YOURS. I would rather not have government bureaucrats decide what I should do with my healthcare, or if I should have healthcare at all. I pay maybe 8 percent of my income on healthcare, and I don't even have my CPA yet (and am barely above the poverty line probably). Is that really so bad?
Actually, Eastern Europe and other parts of Europe smoke more than the US. Smoking is so uncool these days, and smokers are basically treated like second-class citizens. We are definitely lard-asses, though.
On November 05 2010 04:33 Deadlyfish wrote: I like American politics, i think they're great. Hate how in europe you can pretty much only vote for socialists, it's ridiculous.
I always find it funny how Europeans think that american politics is made up of extremists and crazy people. I know many Europeans politicians that are just nutjobs or just plain stupid.
There is a reason America is the only superpower, they have great politicians. Probably the best in the world. In Europe it doesnt matter what you vote for, all you get is the same old politics, 60% taxes and all they never really do anything, they just argue about small things. And whenever there is an issue they all act like idiots, arguing instead of doing something. America does have its share of problems though, but they are nowhere near as bad as people make them out to be.
Lucky for me i dont live in Europe anymore :D
I hate people like you who discard socialism without really having had a taste for the benefits of it. Compare getting cancer in Sweden and in the US and then come back and say that socialism is crap. The only humanistic and morally right system is socialism.
As I've said earlier you can't really appreciate the socialistic way of life until you had some hardships in your life. The reason why I think everything else is wrong is that it so fucking egotistical who the fuck cares about money. The important thing in life is happiness, and money can't buy happiness putting a smile on someones face is what leads to true happiness and to be honest I am totally fine giving away most of my money if it benefits someone less fortunate and if I ever go though something terrible my country has got my back.
America has plenty of socialist constructs and laws in its society. America is not a purely capitalist state. America differs in that it is less socialist than a lot of european countries.
Making shitloads of money is good. It betters people's lives and gives us better technology, artwork, and videogames. Capitalism has its problems, but don't try to act like capitalism can't help people as well, because it really does.
Of course I don't think capitalism is shit. It's good and helps some sectors. But having a socialistic basis makes the country more humanistic and making money is of course good but it doesn't mean that all of it needs to go to you. Having a balance is the important part going to far left leads to communism although it's a great idea it will never work and has a lot of problems too. But having socialistic health care, education and law enforcement are essential for a country to be successful in the long run.
So really all we're arguing is a matter of degree. I personally want socialized medicine, good education, and law enforcement. I wouldn't say that makes me a socialist though. I just want an economic system that works, and that usually means a mixture of both. And we did just pass a huge healthcare bill, so we're just a little behind the times...
Socialism isn't communism... And the health care bill although it's a step in right direction is nothing near perfect. Swedish health care isn't perfect I'd like to see more money put into it so that we can hire more doctors etc to reduce waiting times but I prefer our system to the one in the US.
I understand socialism isn't communism. But I can want certain specific socialist constructs in my society (like welfare, social security, etc.) but still want to maintain the principles of capitalism. We have a very capitalistic basis in our society, but that doesn't mean we're not open to humane ideas. Again, it's really a matter of degree.
Either way, it's clear that we don't disagree that much on this topic so I'll let you argue with the people who are more right-wing than I am.
I prefer the American system of health care (pre-Obamacare). I am 24 years old. I have basic catastrophic coverage (train wreck insurance), that has high deductibles in the event (although highly unlikely) that I get very sick or hurt. I pay 80 USD a month, and it covers some of the costs of prescriptions. I pay 40 USD per visit to go to the doctor THAT DAY, and would never have to wait for surgery if my life was at risk. My family doctor is awesome, and I wouldn't trade him for anything. So yes, I would rather pay for my own health insurance than pay for mine and YOURS. I would rather not have government bureaucrats decide what I should do with my healthcare, or if I should have healthcare at all. I pay maybe 8 percent of my income on healthcare, and I don't even have my CPA yet (and am barely above the poverty line probably). Is that really so bad?
Uh... do you know how healthcare works? Because no matter what you're paying for other people's healthcare just simply because that's how healthcare companies work. And if I'm not mistaken, all those costs are significantly higher than socialized healthcare costs. So just because you don't mind paying high prices doesn't mean other people don't.
Seriously 8% of your income on healthcare completely sucks.
It will be hard for U.S to deal with the financial crisis, the war, AND the massive debt. I am curious to see how they will accept the fact that U.S will not stay the first economy of the world.
They could change for a kind of european way of politic (more social security, etc - working fine during crisis period), or going for some far right extreme politics...
The answer to why Swedes don't smoke as much. We have the least dangerous form of tobacco being the most popular way of getting your nicotine fix. If the US would get some Swedish snus and not that crappy camel snus I think it could help out a lot of people to get of smoking since the nicotine concentration is much higher than that in cigarettes.
Also I must say that all the apathy in this thread is really getting me down. Really people! really! do you actually think money is more important than helping others. That shit just contradicts everything that being human is about in my eyes.
Making money does help others. You make money by providing valuable goods and services to other people in the marketplace. Enterprise causes economic growth, and economic growth is the central cause of billions of people climbing out of poverty in the last 50 years. More people are literate, healthy, and leading good lives than ever before. And that is not because of foreign aid. That is because enterprise and capitalism has vastly increased the total level of wealth in the world.
Leftists mock these ideas as "trickle-down economics", but it's true. You can't redistribute wealth when you have none. Socialist policies have a negative effect on wealth creation so you cannot overdo them, especially in a poor country. Socialism is a luxury good that only the rich can afford.
Just because people act for selfish reasons in the market doesn't mean they are bad. There is such a thing as mutually beneficial exchange. In turn, altruistic actions that don't do much good aren't noble just because they are unselfish. The selfish action of foreign investment in the last 50 years has done more good for poor countries than all the foreign aid and charity in the world in all of history combined.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.philipwildenstam.se/wp-content/uploads/snus.jpg)
