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On August 25 2010 03:35 w_Ender_w wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 03:17 Motiva wrote:
lol I can feel for her pain. I don't blame her for what she did. Furthermore all of the spoiled kids in this thread make me laugh. You people clearly are not aware of how difficult it is making $8/hr while being uninsurable in the private market...
This is just another day in a world where health maintenance requires insurance. Sure it works for the middle-uper and even some of the lower class, but the idea that because the system leaves out some people, that it's their fault. I know this might be a shock to many of you kids, but the real world is actually very difficult and unforgiving. Anyone sitting there making comments about this woman clearly deserve a punch in the face. :D What do you know about her life choices, her financial situation, her intelligence? Maybe she's just not very smart? Are you suddenly interested in attacking slow people?
My point is simply that the people in this thread are quick to point fingers, make comments, tell stories, but all these are is bias justification for your inability to relate.
Like the story above me about someone flying to a different country to get health services, over other health services... Ok, but what if you made $8/hr and had 2 kids and there wasn't socialized healthcare or hell, even cheap healthcare. Oh right you'd just do X Y Z and dodge the problem because you actually can't relate at all
/rant I deserve a punch in the face because I lack sympathy for a woman trying to abuse the system? Every time someone pulls a stunt like this it makes it worse for the people trying to actually make a difference. Sure, we can look at her life choices. Like buying a .25 to shoot herself with, which costs anywhere between $150 and $500 dollars. Maybe she should have purchased insurance with that money?
Well that's different outlooks, to some the system is full of problems for some reasons, for others the system is so broken that exploitation is the alternative to nothingness. Also, gl on her getting insurance for anywhere near $500. That's a fucking joke. Anyway, You don't literally deserve a punch in the face. :D
EDIT: and I feel abuse is a bit of a strong word... She's not doing this out of spite, she's doing this because the system has failed her. (I'm sure theres a strong argument that she failed the system as well, but whatever, this is one person's personal life we're talking) :D :D
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On August 25 2010 02:02 FabledIntegral wrote:
And maybe your friends should have gotten
1. A better resume
2. A better GPA
3. Gone to more career fairs
4. Majored in a better field with more job openings
Guess what? I'm majoring in Business Economics. Job market is god awful for my major. Know what I did? Picked up a minor in accounting. Now I work for a CPA firm and have a side job as a valet on Fri/Sat nights. I'm aware there's unemployment. But out of every 100 looking for jobs, only ~15 can't find them. So how about you don't be in the bottom 15%. I assure you if they had gotten a 3.5 of above they would have no trouble finding jobs. Are they also being smart about it? When they apply to Ralphs, does their resume say that they graduated with a bachelors? If it does, they need to stop being stupid and take it off their resume. Most employers for basic retail will immediately discard your resume if you're a college graduate - because they are overqualified.
Play the market. Sell yourself.
Maybe they should have, but there are more people than jobs. If they were all twice as good at marketing themselves and had a flawless academic record, they'd just edge out a dozen other candidates from the pool, and then we'd be talking about those people, instead.
Fundamentally, I don't understand why you are committed to this view where if you haven't done all these things, you then deserve to toil in shit and shouldn't get any sympathy. I think that's immoral. I don't think it's reasonable to leave hard-working poor people without any accessible health care because they didn't go to enough career fairs or (gasp) didn't attend college.
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On August 25 2010 04:03 catamorphist wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 02:02 FabledIntegral wrote:
And maybe your friends should have gotten
1. A better resume
2. A better GPA
3. Gone to more career fairs
4. Majored in a better field with more job openings
Guess what? I'm majoring in Business Economics. Job market is god awful for my major. Know what I did? Picked up a minor in accounting. Now I work for a CPA firm and have a side job as a valet on Fri/Sat nights. I'm aware there's unemployment. But out of every 100 looking for jobs, only ~15 can't find them. So how about you don't be in the bottom 15%. I assure you if they had gotten a 3.5 of above they would have no trouble finding jobs. Are they also being smart about it? When they apply to Ralphs, does their resume say that they graduated with a bachelors? If it does, they need to stop being stupid and take it off their resume. Most employers for basic retail will immediately discard your resume if you're a college graduate - because they are overqualified.
Play the market. Sell yourself. Maybe they should have, but there are more people than jobs. If they were all twice as good at marketing themselves and had a flawless academic record, they'd just edge out a dozen other candidates from the pool, and then we'd be talking about those people, instead. Fundamentally, I don't understand why you are committed to this view where if you haven't done all these things, you then deserve to toil in shit and shouldn't get any sympathy. I think that's immoral. I don't think it's reasonable to leave hard-working poor people without any accessible health care because they didn't go to enough career fairs or (gasp) didn't attend college.
Agreed
Furthermore what if you're not a materialistic job/money oriented zombie like the rest of the nation? What if the knowledge is worth more to you than the degree, and so you don't pursue one? It's common knowledge that Albert Einstien wouldn't be accepted to college these days. To hold every person to ridiculous standards, particularly when you don't know the meaning of life or anything like that and are simply just making blind judgments based on your world view without any empathy at all is nothing short of selfish and blind.
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On August 25 2010 03:04 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 02:50 Mango wrote:On August 25 2010 02:09 FabledIntegral wrote:On August 25 2010 02:05 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On August 24 2010 22:46 Floophead_III wrote:
People shouldn't have to make $8/hour handling toxic waste if they didn't sit around smoking dope for 35 years.
This is America, there is no excuse why anybody ever should have that kind of job at her age. Are you saying all the younger people should be working these jobs? She was younger once too but working a job like that usually leads to continuing to work a job like that. Or are you saying that no one in America should be working these jobs? Somebody has to do them. It's true that you can look at any individual and find a way for them to achieve a good career but you can't look at a nation and find a way for every citizen to have a good career, even if they're all willing and able. Lots and lots of shitty jobs are out there and they need to be done. You shouldn't devalue and trash the person who ends up with a shitty job. If no one takes the job and they "need to be done," then the wages and benefits for the job will go up. No one forced her to take the job, as no one has forced any of them to take the job. Because they are willing to say "yes, I will work at this job for $8/hr" that they get paid $8/hr. Somebody has do to it is never a valid explanation. As said I said before, if she wanted health insurance affordable, maybe she should have quit smoking to lower her rates and apply all the money saved on cigarettes to pay for her shoulder getting fixed. Sounds like you need a reality check. If you have no money, you don't exactly have the opportunity to say "Oh, I don't need the money I can earn there. If I hold on to this long enough they might raise the salary, just need to survive until they give in! And a higher paycheck might attract other people with better qualifications then me which can put me out of play. But then I did something for the greater good I guess! Even if I will still be left in the cold with no money at all..." You CAN be forced in a job when you really need the money and don't see any other way out. It ain't because you have the possibility to pick your job that everybody has that choice. Really seems that you lack a bit of empathy if you ask me. I never said she should wait. Your bullshit remarks aren't appreciated. No, you can't be forced into a job no matter what circumstance. Every single economist also says you are wrong. You are mixing free will and sympathy. I believe you need a reality check. I am very much a realist. I'm saying that people are willing to take the job at $8/hr so there's no reason the wage should go up. Completely different than saying wait. I also think most other first world countries are shittier than the United States so you can go throw that terrible argument elsewhere. PS. My aunt died of breast cancer. She lived in Canada. Her scheduled mammogram (when she just turned 50) made her wait months to actually get in. If she was in the United States and got in immediately they would have detected the cancer sooner and she would have had a better shot at living. My grandfather also had a critical eye injury that they wanted to make him wait over 3 weeks in order to get surgery (which is very short compared to normal wait lists in Canada for surgery, save life threatening ones). He flew to the US to get it done. To save his vision. The Canadian system sucks dick.
No, the Canadian system is awesome. Everyone gets a standard of care regardless of if you're rich or poor - but the rich people can just pony up and fly to the US to jump the queue.
Do you know what the fundamental reason why healthcare is so expensive? BECAUSE EVERYONE WANTS THE BEST HEALTHCARE. Who's going to settle for a 30 year old cancer treatment when you can get an MRI? What doctor is going to recommend that to you?
Healthcare is constantly improving, just like computers are. The components, the equipment, the techniques all get more costly and more effective all the time. And just like computers, it gets more expensive over time. The difference? EVERYBODY wants to be a first adopter in healthcare whereas only a very few people want to be first adopters in new computer tech. Therefore, healthcare is constantly extremly expensive.
Money and resources don't grow on trees. Yes, healthcare keeps getting more expensive but that's because it keeps getting better. If you want a cheap solution... you're not going to get the best solution. Solution: Make more money. Don't be an assembly line worker. Don't produce the same value in goods every day but try to consume more and more goods every day of your life.
I'm sorry, but that's the truth. The real solution is a teired healthcare system where poor people get doctors with older techniques, less experience and the equipment is worse. But unfortunatly, right now "everyone is equal" in terms of lives. That means everyone gets the same standard of care, so instead of people getting different levels of care based on what they can afford, you either get care or striaght up don't get anything.
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Her insurance would probably be a lot cheaper if she quit smoking :/
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On August 25 2010 03:16 EpiCenteR wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 00:40 catamorphist wrote:On August 25 2010 00:29 EpiCenteR wrote:
Sad story indeed. However, it does not justify stealing other peoples money to fix it. On August 25 2010 00:29 thrslimde wrote:
But there is a undeniable truth, which is that every person with a serious health issue (and that also includes non-lethal issues that mess up your live or prevent you from living it normally) needs a treatment.
And this truth ends with a fullstop. There are no if's in it. To me there is no argument that could ever be made to counter this statement. And any health care system should fullfil this, even if that means that we need to pay 50% income tax, smoke Cuban cigars all day, and wear oversized sunglasses. Even if the system gets abused as shit. Even if the uncovered people are immigrants. Even if it would destroy the economy, crash the stock exchange and destroys millions of jobs. Just contrasting the previous two posts. There's a real value issue here. Saying it's "stealing" doesn't convince anyone, and neither does saying "any health care system should fulfill this." This is why I don't think serious reform is coming in this generation; half of the population couldn't give a shit about "fairness" or "justice" when it gets in the way of people's health, and the other half couldn't give a shit if their neighbor curls up and dies when it gets in the way of fairness. You can't really reconcile these two positions easily. Whats "fair" and "just" about forcefully confiscating ones property (money) and giving to to another which did not earn it? If I see someone hurting, or needing help, I will do what I can to help out another person. I am sure most people are the same. However, one should not use the heavy and omnipotent hand of the State to fix social "problems".
They can and do for other social institutions. Schools, police, medicare/medicaid. How is this any different? Shouldn't we stop these existing institutions because they too force you to pay money for the benefit of others? Tell me, what exactly would you be giving up for this person to receive basic medical treatment?
There's only really two things driving the people that seem to blame this women, greed and ignorance of reality.
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Let me throw an idea out there. You folks who don't think that this woman deserves subsidized health care -- would you agree or disagree with this statement?
"The amount of money someone makes should roughly represent how much value they contribute to society."
If you agreed with that statement, I might understand where you're coming from morally saying that poor people generally don't deserve to have help paying for care. Needless to say, I don't.
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On August 25 2010 04:16 Offhand wrote:
Whats "fair" and "just" about forcefully confiscating ones property (money) and giving to to another which did not earn it? If I see someone hurting, or needing help, I will do what I can to help out another person. I am sure most people are the same. However, one should not use the heavy and omnipotent hand of the State to fix social "problems".
Nothing's fair or just about that; that was my whole point. A lot of people complain about this from the "fairness" angle, saying that it's not fair to take money they earned and tax it to contribute to things that only help other people. I agree, it's probably unfair. Personally, I don't think it's important at all whether it's fair or not; it's not really on my radar to question whether things are fair.
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PS. My aunt died of breast cancer. She lived in Canada. Her scheduled mammogram (when she just turned 50) made her wait months to actually get in. If she was in the United States and got in immediately they would have detected the cancer sooner and she would have had a better shot at living. My grandfather also had a critical eye injury that they wanted to make him wait over 3 weeks in order to get surgery (which is very short compared to normal wait lists in Canada for surgery, save life threatening ones). He flew to the US to get it done. To save his vision. The Canadian system sucks dick.
The Canadian system is just fine. My mother and her 2 sisters have mammograms regularly, when their doctors recommend them. They have not had to wait months for them. If your family physician suspects something they will bump you right up (like they did for my mom, but found nothing cancerous).
My father passed out and hit his head on a metal railing due to kidney failure, was set up on a dialysis program that still allowed him to work and all at no cost out of his pocket. He since had a kidney transplant and the anti-rejection drugs are no cost to him.
My grandfather has had two heart attacks, a quadruple bypass, had a vein in his leg transplanted to his heart, and takes 7 different pills at various times in the week for his condition. And he is retired and able to live comfortably.
At age 15, my brother was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes, which means his pancreas no longer produces insulin, which we all need. The insulin he needs, the doctor and specialist doctor visits he needs are all covered by our national healthcare system.
I had my tonsils removed in 1993, I haven't been to the hospital for myself since then, and I gladly pay my share of the taxes that go towards the healthcare in this nation.
I'm sorry that your aunt's diagnosis may have been screwed up, she had a shitty doctor, or whatever happened there, but to generalize an entire system because of one instance is the same as me generalizing the system as perfect because it has been good to my family. It has its flaws, I agree, but it and every other first world health care system is better than America's system.
I'm not saying the doctors or specialists or nurses are bad, some of the finest in the world work in America, but the insurance system you have is terrible and this most recent healthcare reform bill has done very little to make it comparable to the rest of the civilized world.
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Smoking and shooting yourself in the shoulder doesn't help.
I am for helping this woman, but she's really not helping herself and hurting others by making these ill informed choices.
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On August 25 2010 03:17 Motiva wrote:
lol I can feel for her pain. I don't blame her for what she did. Furthermore all of the spoiled kids in this thread make me laugh. You people clearly are not aware of how difficult it is making $8/hr while being uninsurable in the private market...
This is just another day in a world where health maintenance requires insurance. Sure it works for the middle-uper and even some of the lower class, but the idea that because the system leaves out some people, that it's their fault. I know this might be a shock to many of you kids, but the real world is actually very difficult and unforgiving. Anyone sitting there making comments about this woman clearly deserve a punch in the face. :D What do you know about her life choices, her financial situation, her intelligence? Maybe she's just not very smart? Are you suddenly interested in attacking slow people?
My point is simply that the people in this thread are quick to point fingers, make comments, tell stories, but all these are is bias justification for your inability to relate.
Like the story above me about someone flying to a different country to get health services, over other health services... Ok, but what if you made $8/hr and had 2 kids and there wasn't socialized healthcare or hell, even cheap healthcare. Oh right you'd just do X Y Z and dodge the problem because you actually can't relate at all
/rant
LOL so now I have to pay money because people aren't as smart as me? We should have a friggin' IQ test and I'll tank it on purpose to receive welfare from the government. Really? You really want to argue that people who are less smart are going to deserve my money because I'm smarter?
Life isn't fair. I have my own life and I don't want it to be affected by other people's poor decisions. No, I don't know about her history and don't care to. She made her own choices in her life that led up to this situation.
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On August 25 2010 04:16 Offhand wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 03:16 EpiCenteR wrote:On August 25 2010 00:40 catamorphist wrote:On August 25 2010 00:29 EpiCenteR wrote:
Sad story indeed. However, it does not justify stealing other peoples money to fix it. On August 25 2010 00:29 thrslimde wrote:
But there is a undeniable truth, which is that every person with a serious health issue (and that also includes non-lethal issues that mess up your live or prevent you from living it normally) needs a treatment.
And this truth ends with a fullstop. There are no if's in it. To me there is no argument that could ever be made to counter this statement. And any health care system should fullfil this, even if that means that we need to pay 50% income tax, smoke Cuban cigars all day, and wear oversized sunglasses. Even if the system gets abused as shit. Even if the uncovered people are immigrants. Even if it would destroy the economy, crash the stock exchange and destroys millions of jobs. Just contrasting the previous two posts. There's a real value issue here. Saying it's "stealing" doesn't convince anyone, and neither does saying "any health care system should fulfill this." This is why I don't think serious reform is coming in this generation; half of the population couldn't give a shit about "fairness" or "justice" when it gets in the way of people's health, and the other half couldn't give a shit if their neighbor curls up and dies when it gets in the way of fairness. You can't really reconcile these two positions easily. Whats "fair" and "just" about forcefully confiscating ones property (money) and giving to to another which did not earn it? If I see someone hurting, or needing help, I will do what I can to help out another person. I am sure most people are the same. However, one should not use the heavy and omnipotent hand of the State to fix social "problems". They can and do for other social institutions. Schools, police, medicare/medicaid. How is this any different? Shouldn't we stop these existing institutions because they too force you to pay money for the benefit of others? Tell me, what exactly would you be giving up for this person to receive basic medical treatment? There's only really two things driving the people that seem to blame this women, greed and ignorance of reality.
I know they do, and I disagree with all the programs you quoted. I do not want, or support, any government program that is funded by theft and coercion.
Do you know what I would give up? For one, my property would be forcefully confiscated from me for the arcane "greater good". Secondly, with every government program comes a loss of liberty. Every mandate, program, regulation, etc that is put in place by the leviathan state chips away at my freedom.
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Just because the current system sucks doesn't mean Obama's version is better.
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On August 24 2010 22:38 Offhand wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 16:16 Drowsy wrote:
+1, this sob story is just retarded. Why should somebody who's voluntarily subjected themselves to that many health risks "deserve" to be insured? Did anyone put a gun to her head and force her to work handling toxic waste or coerce her into using cigarette? The fact that she was willing to shoot herself in addition to her profession and smoking habit might just reveal that she has some serious self destructive tendencies. As an insurance company, or better yet a taxpayer, I wouldn't want somebody with these kind of proclivities to have health insurance. If it's a big enough deal to her she's willing to shoot herself, it's a big enough deal for her to rethink her life a bit and maybe get a different job with health insurance.
The discussion isn't going to go anywhere as long as people continue to unironically think this women makes $8/hour handling toxic waste as if this is her dream job. People do what's necessary to make rent.
You're right. Nobody has any efficacy in what they do for a living, it's all out of anyone's control and completely random. Somebody took her hostage and threatened to rape her whole family if she didn't work at the toxic waste plant for 8$ for 23 years. There's no way she could have switched in 23 years either.
I'm not even saying she needs to go to school and puruse a career, but there's sooo many non-professional jobs that offer health insurance benefits. Three of the four of the jobs that I've had as a student have offered health insurance, my current one does it even for part time employees. And the bad economy excuse is retarded because she's had decades to switch jobs and stop smoking.
On August 25 2010 01:45 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 01:34 catamorphist wrote:On August 25 2010 01:10 FabledIntegral wrote:
As said before by others, I fail to understand why my tax dollars should pay for someone who's deciding to work at a toxic care facility and smokes regularly. I don't think she deserves a penny of my money. Maybe she shouldn't be smoking. Could you define "deciding?" Because I don't think most people would agree that she is deciding to work at a facility handling toxic waste. I certainly don't. If you're presented with a choice between working somewhere and being homeless, I don't think your choice is much of a decision. Why shouldn't our tax dollars pay for covering the health of people working dangerous jobs? The existence of those jobs is an externality of our lifestyles. Toxic waste exists as a byproduct of manufacturing goods and providing services that everyone wants. Because it's their choice to take such a job in the first place. If they don't feel $8/hr is worth the risk, then they shouldn't take the risk. They don't have to take the job. By taking the $8/hr risky job, they are deciding to take the job. No one is putting a gun to her head and forcing her to take it. It's her decision.
NO MAN YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND! Here in civilized Europe we understand that nobody is accountable for anything. Nobody has any choices and and everybody's actions are completely divorced from their personal outcomes. She had NO CHOICE but to smoke and work at the nuclear waste sorting facility, NO CHOICE! We should all give her money to help! We're not productive taxpayers by choice, just happened.
On August 25 2010 04:39 nttea wrote:
I am utterly disgusted at the amount of people lacking basic human compassion in this thread... So she made some mistakes in her life? you really think she doesn't deserve healthcare because she was stupid enough to 1. Smoke (which is something ALOT of people do, and it's addictive and very hard to quit for most people. Probably even harder for someone with a life that sucks ass) 2. worked with toxic waste. Guess what, someone has to do it. You know the world could be a much better place if you weren't such assholes.
A non-smoker without existing health problems who doesn't desperately want health insurance can do it too, and there are many such people.
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I am utterly disgusted at the amount of people lacking basic human compassion in this thread... So she made some mistakes in her life? you really think she doesn't deserve healthcare because she was stupid enough to 1. Smoke (which is something ALOT of people do, and it's addictive and very hard to quit for most people. Probably even harder for someone with a life that sucks ass) 2. worked with toxic waste. Guess what, someone has to do it. You know the world could be a much better place if you weren't such assholes.
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People are still living in an ideal world? People have to it too easy. If a animal was unsuccessful (as this person is) no1 would bring it food and tend to its wounds. In order to gain the things you want you need to have power. You get power by being able to control people ( money ), and without out it you would be foolish to expect to have the things i want. I am so poor right now i cant eat the healthy food that i want/need to it so i have to deal it with it. This is just people searching for handouts.
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On August 25 2010 04:31 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 03:17 Motiva wrote:
lol I can feel for her pain. I don't blame her for what she did. Furthermore all of the spoiled kids in this thread make me laugh. You people clearly are not aware of how difficult it is making $8/hr while being uninsurable in the private market...
This is just another day in a world where health maintenance requires insurance. Sure it works for the middle-uper and even some of the lower class, but the idea that because the system leaves out some people, that it's their fault. I know this might be a shock to many of you kids, but the real world is actually very difficult and unforgiving. Anyone sitting there making comments about this woman clearly deserve a punch in the face. :D What do you know about her life choices, her financial situation, her intelligence? Maybe she's just not very smart? Are you suddenly interested in attacking slow people?
My point is simply that the people in this thread are quick to point fingers, make comments, tell stories, but all these are is bias justification for your inability to relate.
Like the story above me about someone flying to a different country to get health services, over other health services... Ok, but what if you made $8/hr and had 2 kids and there wasn't socialized healthcare or hell, even cheap healthcare. Oh right you'd just do X Y Z and dodge the problem because you actually can't relate at all
/rant LOL so now I have to pay money because people aren't as smart as me? We should have a friggin' IQ test and I'll tank it on purpose to receive welfare from the government. Really? You really want to argue that people who are less smart are going to deserve my money because I'm smarter? Life isn't fair. I have my own life and I don't want it to be affected by other people's poor decisions. No, I don't know about her history and don't care to. She made her own choices in her life that led up to this situation.
Well fortunately since you care so little, your opinion matters about as much.
Do I really want to argue that people who are less smart deserve anything? No, I'm not sure I did anything to merit the sort... Are you interested in arguing things that have nothing to do with anything? You don't want poor decisions affected your life, I don't want to have to reply to poorly thought out posts. Or we could stay on topic, and you could just read my words and take the meaning for what it is, instead of having to pretend i'm arguing something when I'm really just being like wtf @ all the bias in this thread. Suddenly a not very bright woman does something and theres a 10 page thread of well of people condemning her. I'm not asking you to pay her anything, and if someone says you have to pay her something, well then, complain to them, not to someone who has nothing to do with it. Me.
However, I must say it's a startling revelation that you don't want poor decisions caused by others to affect you... However, she made her own choices, we can both assume this, I'm down. However to say that her situation isn't affected by the same fucking retarded people making retarded decisions all over teh world is asinine. Not your point perhaps, but you made your point several posts ago, why are you asking me OT questions?
If you have a problem with my problem with people insisting on their superior world view, or interpreation there-of. So be it... Just making my point.
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On August 25 2010 04:39 nttea wrote:
I am utterly disgusted at the amount of people lacking basic human compassion in this thread... So she made some mistakes in her life? you really think she doesn't deserve healthcare because she was stupid enough to 1. Smoke (which is something ALOT of people do, and it's addictive and very hard to quit for most people. Probably even harder for someone with a life that sucks ass) 2. worked with toxic waste. Guess what, someone has to do it. You know the world could be a much better place if you weren't such assholes.
So your definition of compassion is that people are entitled to others wealth?
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On August 25 2010 03:17 Motiva wrote:
lol I can feel for her pain. I don't blame her for what she did. Furthermore all of the spoiled kids in this thread make me laugh. You people clearly are not aware of how difficult it is making $8/hr while being uninsurable in the private market...
This is just another day in a world where health maintenance requires insurance. Sure it works for the middle-uper and even some of the lower class, but the idea that because the system leaves out some people, that it's their fault. I know this might be a shock to many of you kids, but the real world is actually very difficult and unforgiving. Anyone sitting there making comments about this woman clearly deserve a punch in the face. :D What do you know about her life choices, her financial situation, her intelligence? Maybe she's just not very smart? Are you suddenly interested in attacking slow people?
My point is simply that the people in this thread are quick to point fingers, make comments, tell stories, but all these are is bias justification for your inability to relate.
Like the story above me about someone flying to a different country to get health services, over other health services... Ok, but what if you made $8/hr and had 2 kids and there wasn't socialized healthcare or hell, even cheap healthcare. Oh right you'd just do X Y Z and dodge the problem because you actually can't relate at all
/rant
LOL so now I have to pay money because people aren't as smart as me? We should have a friggin' IQ test and I'll tank it on purpose to receive welfare from the government. Really? You really want to argue that people who are less smart are going to deserve my money because I'm smarter?
Life isn't fair. I have my own life and I don't want it to be affected by other people's poor decisions. No, I don't know about her history and don't care to. She made her own choices in her life that led up to this situation.
On August 25 2010 04:03 catamorphist wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 02:02 FabledIntegral wrote:
And maybe your friends should have gotten
1. A better resume
2. A better GPA
3. Gone to more career fairs
4. Majored in a better field with more job openings
Guess what? I'm majoring in Business Economics. Job market is god awful for my major. Know what I did? Picked up a minor in accounting. Now I work for a CPA firm and have a side job as a valet on Fri/Sat nights. I'm aware there's unemployment. But out of every 100 looking for jobs, only ~15 can't find them. So how about you don't be in the bottom 15%. I assure you if they had gotten a 3.5 of above they would have no trouble finding jobs. Are they also being smart about it? When they apply to Ralphs, does their resume say that they graduated with a bachelors? If it does, they need to stop being stupid and take it off their resume. Most employers for basic retail will immediately discard your resume if you're a college graduate - because they are overqualified.
Play the market. Sell yourself. Maybe they should have, but there are more people than jobs. If they were all twice as good at marketing themselves and had a flawless academic record, they'd just edge out a dozen other candidates from the pool, and then we'd be talking about those people, instead. Fundamentally, I don't understand why you are committed to this view where if you haven't done all these things, you then deserve to toil in shit and shouldn't get any sympathy. I think that's immoral. I don't think it's reasonable to leave hard-working poor people without any accessible health care because they didn't go to enough career fairs or (gasp) didn't attend college.
Exactly, there are more people than jobs. So put yourself forward, and make sure you aren't in the bottom X%. If you are, then you failed to beat your peers. Don't punish the ones who were able to edge out their peers by supporting the ones who couldn't.
I'm not saying you deserve to toil in shit. I'm saying you don't deserve anything from ME. I'm saying you can make whatever you want out of your situation. Just don't make ME pay for it because I went above and beyond to maintain a 3.8 GPA during college while working simultaneously while YOU (not you specifically) went out and got a 2.7 (B- average) and are wondering why you can't get a job during this recession. You made your own life choices to end up where you are. I wish you the best in making the best for yourself. But don't take my money because you can't afford your own health care.
On August 25 2010 04:10 Motiva wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 04:03 catamorphist wrote:On August 25 2010 02:02 FabledIntegral wrote:
And maybe your friends should have gotten
1. A better resume
2. A better GPA
3. Gone to more career fairs
4. Majored in a better field with more job openings
Guess what? I'm majoring in Business Economics. Job market is god awful for my major. Know what I did? Picked up a minor in accounting. Now I work for a CPA firm and have a side job as a valet on Fri/Sat nights. I'm aware there's unemployment. But out of every 100 looking for jobs, only ~15 can't find them. So how about you don't be in the bottom 15%. I assure you if they had gotten a 3.5 of above they would have no trouble finding jobs. Are they also being smart about it? When they apply to Ralphs, does their resume say that they graduated with a bachelors? If it does, they need to stop being stupid and take it off their resume. Most employers for basic retail will immediately discard your resume if you're a college graduate - because they are overqualified.
Play the market. Sell yourself. Maybe they should have, but there are more people than jobs. If they were all twice as good at marketing themselves and had a flawless academic record, they'd just edge out a dozen other candidates from the pool, and then we'd be talking about those people, instead. Fundamentally, I don't understand why you are committed to this view where if you haven't done all these things, you then deserve to toil in shit and shouldn't get any sympathy. I think that's immoral. I don't think it's reasonable to leave hard-working poor people without any accessible health care because they didn't go to enough career fairs or (gasp) didn't attend college. Agreed Furthermore what if you're not a materialistic job/money oriented zombie like the rest of the nation? What if the knowledge is worth more to you than the degree, and so you don't pursue one? It's common knowledge that Albert Einstien wouldn't be accepted to college these days. To hold every person to ridiculous standards, particularly when you don't know the meaning of life or anything like that and are simply just making blind judgments based on your world view without any empathy at all is nothing short of selfish and blind.
What? This has nothing to do with materialism. It has to do with not taking money from people who earned it. I don't understand your knowledge vs degree argument; a degree typically results in more knowledge than not having a degree, maybe I'm misreading it. I don't know what "standards," you're speaking of. I'm saying don't expect other people to take care of you simply because you can't yourself. Why should I pay for someone else who broke their arm when skateboarding and needed to go to the hospital? Why should I pay for someone who has had a heart attack because they decided to continually eat terrible? Why should I pay for someone who has lung cancer because they smoked their entire life? They made their choices.
Yeah, it's a tragedy that things happen to people as well that didn't make those choices and ended there anyways. But there's no reason I should be forced by law to pay for their disabilities. I assume all of you have at least a few extra dollars spending cash, why don't every single one of you donate ALL your money to Africa to save dying children? Your hypocrisy astounds me. The argument I've seen over and over is that it's "people's lives," etc. So now because of what country you live in lives are valued differently? The amount of money it takes to save one person from dying from cancer could save a hundred kids from starving each year in another country. Why not take 10% out of EVERYONE'S paychecks from now on to help them? There's a difference between killing someone and failing to save someone. One is causing something and the other is omission of action. And I know a lot of you have some extra cash or you wouldn't have any internet access.
On August 25 2010 04:13 sikyon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 03:04 FabledIntegral wrote:On August 25 2010 02:50 Mango wrote:On August 25 2010 02:09 FabledIntegral wrote:On August 25 2010 02:05 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On August 24 2010 22:46 Floophead_III wrote:
People shouldn't have to make $8/hour handling toxic waste if they didn't sit around smoking dope for 35 years.
This is America, there is no excuse why anybody ever should have that kind of job at her age. Are you saying all the younger people should be working these jobs? She was younger once too but working a job like that usually leads to continuing to work a job like that. Or are you saying that no one in America should be working these jobs? Somebody has to do them. It's true that you can look at any individual and find a way for them to achieve a good career but you can't look at a nation and find a way for every citizen to have a good career, even if they're all willing and able. Lots and lots of shitty jobs are out there and they need to be done. You shouldn't devalue and trash the person who ends up with a shitty job. If no one takes the job and they "need to be done," then the wages and benefits for the job will go up. No one forced her to take the job, as no one has forced any of them to take the job. Because they are willing to say "yes, I will work at this job for $8/hr" that they get paid $8/hr. Somebody has do to it is never a valid explanation. As said I said before, if she wanted health insurance affordable, maybe she should have quit smoking to lower her rates and apply all the money saved on cigarettes to pay for her shoulder getting fixed. Sounds like you need a reality check. If you have no money, you don't exactly have the opportunity to say "Oh, I don't need the money I can earn there. If I hold on to this long enough they might raise the salary, just need to survive until they give in! And a higher paycheck might attract other people with better qualifications then me which can put me out of play. But then I did something for the greater good I guess! Even if I will still be left in the cold with no money at all..." You CAN be forced in a job when you really need the money and don't see any other way out. It ain't because you have the possibility to pick your job that everybody has that choice. Really seems that you lack a bit of empathy if you ask me. I never said she should wait. Your bullshit remarks aren't appreciated. No, you can't be forced into a job no matter what circumstance. Every single economist also says you are wrong. You are mixing free will and sympathy. I believe you need a reality check. I am very much a realist. I'm saying that people are willing to take the job at $8/hr so there's no reason the wage should go up. Completely different than saying wait. I also think most other first world countries are shittier than the United States so you can go throw that terrible argument elsewhere. PS. My aunt died of breast cancer. She lived in Canada. Her scheduled mammogram (when she just turned 50) made her wait months to actually get in. If she was in the United States and got in immediately they would have detected the cancer sooner and she would have had a better shot at living. My grandfather also had a critical eye injury that they wanted to make him wait over 3 weeks in order to get surgery (which is very short compared to normal wait lists in Canada for surgery, save life threatening ones). He flew to the US to get it done. To save his vision. The Canadian system sucks dick. No, the Canadian system is awesome. Everyone gets a standard of care regardless of if you're rich or poor - but the rich people can just pony up and fly to the US to jump the queue. Do you know what the fundamental reason why healthcare is so expensive? BECAUSE EVERYONE WANTS THE BEST HEALTHCARE. Who's going to settle for a 30 year old cancer treatment when you can get an MRI? What doctor is going to recommend that to you? Healthcare is constantly improving, just like computers are. The components, the equipment, the techniques all get more costly and more effective all the time. And just like computers, it gets more expensive over time. The difference? EVERYBODY wants to be a first adopter in healthcare whereas only a very few people want to be first adopters in new computer tech. Therefore, healthcare is constantly extremly expensive. Money and resources don't grow on trees. Yes, healthcare keeps getting more expensive but that's because it keeps getting better. If you want a cheap solution... you're not going to get the best solution. Solution: Make more money. Don't be an assembly line worker. Don't produce the same value in goods every day but try to consume more and more goods every day of your life. I'm sorry, but that's the truth. The real solution is a teired healthcare system where poor people get doctors with older techniques, less experience and the equipment is worse. But unfortunatly, right now "everyone is equal" in terms of lives. That means everyone gets the same standard of care, so instead of people getting different levels of care based on what they can afford, you either get care or striaght up don't get anything.
What I've gotten from this is you like paying into the system because you've gotten far more out of it than you've put it. But what about a person who remained single his entire life, never had any genetic defects, lived a healthy life, etc. How much money did he have to pay in his life to support YOUR surgeries. I feel like it isn't fair to him whatsoever. It's only fair to you because everyone pitched in to help YOU. Imagine you're getting paid $10/hr in the current system. Now you're told because other people want to be insured, you're going to only get paid $9/hr. 10% of your salary is now gone to help other people, and the frugal existence you're surviving on now is made even harder because some dipshit decided to go off a ramp snowboarding and failed to land it.
Universal healthcare also hurts those who don't have healthcare already but are living safely and don't need it.
On August 25 2010 04:16 Offhand wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 03:16 EpiCenteR wrote:On August 25 2010 00:40 catamorphist wrote:On August 25 2010 00:29 EpiCenteR wrote:
Sad story indeed. However, it does not justify stealing other peoples money to fix it. On August 25 2010 00:29 thrslimde wrote:
But there is a undeniable truth, which is that every person with a serious health issue (and that also includes non-lethal issues that mess up your live or prevent you from living it normally) needs a treatment.
And this truth ends with a fullstop. There are no if's in it. To me there is no argument that could ever be made to counter this statement. And any health care system should fullfil this, even if that means that we need to pay 50% income tax, smoke Cuban cigars all day, and wear oversized sunglasses. Even if the system gets abused as shit. Even if the uncovered people are immigrants. Even if it would destroy the economy, crash the stock exchange and destroys millions of jobs. Just contrasting the previous two posts. There's a real value issue here. Saying it's "stealing" doesn't convince anyone, and neither does saying "any health care system should fulfill this." This is why I don't think serious reform is coming in this generation; half of the population couldn't give a shit about "fairness" or "justice" when it gets in the way of people's health, and the other half couldn't give a shit if their neighbor curls up and dies when it gets in the way of fairness. You can't really reconcile these two positions easily. Whats "fair" and "just" about forcefully confiscating ones property (money) and giving to to another which did not earn it? If I see someone hurting, or needing help, I will do what I can to help out another person. I am sure most people are the same. However, one should not use the heavy and omnipotent hand of the State to fix social "problems". They can and do for other social institutions. Schools, police, medicare/medicaid. How is this any different? Shouldn't we stop these existing institutions because they too force you to pay money for the benefit of others? Tell me, what exactly would you be giving up for this person to receive basic medical treatment? There's only really two things driving the people that seem to blame this women, greed and ignorance of reality.
You can't argue police because it's considered a necessity to maintain order. It's universally agreed in that aspect, and isn't debated by anyone. School is more tricky but the end result is a significantly more educated population that may be deemed necessary by the government and produces an overall more productive society, etc. Healthcare only has negative costs on society in terms of economic growth (no, being able to "still work," does not offset this cost by having your shoulder repaired).
What would I be giving up for this person to receive basic medical treatment? Money that I have to spend because she can't manage her own life and do it herself. All you are is a pushover that refuses to even address the fact she could have easily made her situation better by not smoking. Not smoking = more money from not purchasing cigarettes and more affordable healthcare --> win. So stop saying she was fucking helpless.
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On August 25 2010 04:32 EpiCenteR wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 04:16 Offhand wrote:On August 25 2010 03:16 EpiCenteR wrote:On August 25 2010 00:40 catamorphist wrote:On August 25 2010 00:29 EpiCenteR wrote:
Sad story indeed. However, it does not justify stealing other peoples money to fix it. On August 25 2010 00:29 thrslimde wrote:
But there is a undeniable truth, which is that every person with a serious health issue (and that also includes non-lethal issues that mess up your live or prevent you from living it normally) needs a treatment.
And this truth ends with a fullstop. There are no if's in it. To me there is no argument that could ever be made to counter this statement. And any health care system should fullfil this, even if that means that we need to pay 50% income tax, smoke Cuban cigars all day, and wear oversized sunglasses. Even if the system gets abused as shit. Even if the uncovered people are immigrants. Even if it would destroy the economy, crash the stock exchange and destroys millions of jobs. Just contrasting the previous two posts. There's a real value issue here. Saying it's "stealing" doesn't convince anyone, and neither does saying "any health care system should fulfill this." This is why I don't think serious reform is coming in this generation; half of the population couldn't give a shit about "fairness" or "justice" when it gets in the way of people's health, and the other half couldn't give a shit if their neighbor curls up and dies when it gets in the way of fairness. You can't really reconcile these two positions easily. Whats "fair" and "just" about forcefully confiscating ones property (money) and giving to to another which did not earn it? If I see someone hurting, or needing help, I will do what I can to help out another person. I am sure most people are the same. However, one should not use the heavy and omnipotent hand of the State to fix social "problems". They can and do for other social institutions. Schools, police, medicare/medicaid. How is this any different? Shouldn't we stop these existing institutions because they too force you to pay money for the benefit of others? Tell me, what exactly would you be giving up for this person to receive basic medical treatment? There's only really two things driving the people that seem to blame this women, greed and ignorance of reality. I know they do, and I disagree with all the programs you quoted. I do not want, or support, any government program that is funded by theft and coercion. Do you know what I would give up? For one, my property would be forcefully confiscated from me for the arcane "greater good". Secondly, with every government program comes a loss of liberty. Every mandate, program, regulation, etc that is put in place by the leviathan state chips away at my freedom.
Then by all means find some open desert where you can live out your anarcho-libertarian fantasies.
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