My problem is that the riddle already tells you what you want to do. It's not a fair situation if I am already told what I want to do.

If pressing the lever gets me out of the prison I press it so I get out of the prison. I don't kill the other person, the mage does. If I am tormented by the prison and so is the other prisoner I am sure he understands.

If the other prisoner wasn't tormented then our situations were not identical.

RhaegarBeast

Bulgaria113 Posts

July 18 2010 23:01 GMT

#42

On July 19 2010 07:59 KwarK wrote:
The main question is more interesting. At first your situation seems hopeless, a choice between torment or death, but then you realise the other can free you. You simply need to endure it for longer than he does. Then, no matter how hard it gets, you know he's suffering in the same way and that gives you hope because the worse it gets, the nearer they are to breaking. It's a self perpetuating system. If the torture gets worse then both would eventually break at the same time but if not then it may continue indefinitately.

+1 Very nice. It took me a long time to reach this conclusion.

RhaegarBeast

Bulgaria113 Posts

July 18 2010 23:01 GMT

#43

On July 19 2010 07:59 travis wrote:
My problem is that the riddle already tells you what you want to do. It's not a fair situation if I am already told what I want to do.

If pressing the lever gets me out of the prison I press it so I get out of the prison. I don't kill the other person, the mage does. If I am tormented by the prison and so is the other prisoner I am sure he understands.

If the other prisoner wasn't tormented then our situations were not identical.

You're confusing me a bit as it's not clear which version is on your mind.

Win.win

United States230 Posts

July 18 2010 23:02 GMT

#44

On July 19 2010 07:53 RhaegarBeast wrote:

Show nested quote +

Basically, yes. Smart guy.

lol so then you'll both either pull it at the same time or not pull it. why would anyone choose to stay there and suffer?

RhaegarBeast

Bulgaria113 Posts

July 18 2010 23:03 GMT

#45

The question is not just about whether you pull the lever or not.

Deleted User 3420

24492 Posts

July 18 2010 23:05 GMT

#46

On July 19 2010 08:01 RhaegarBeast wrote:

Show nested quote +

You're confusing me a bit as it's not clear which version is on your mind.

oh, i was reponding to everything but the bold

ok, so in the 2nd one im going to suffer more and more and there won't be an end to it?
i push the lever out of spite
suck it mage. why should i believe this shitty mage anyways

(i don't believe in endless suffering though, I think it's possible for the mind to overcome suffering. so if it's within the rules i might pursue that if i could take it)

RhaegarBeast

Bulgaria113 Posts

July 18 2010 23:07 GMT

#47

What you know is certain though. The prisoner that pushes the lever will die and the other one will be freed and no longer a prisoner. (Let's discuss this version first.)

RhaegarBeast

Bulgaria113 Posts

July 18 2010 23:08 GMT

#48

What if the suffering gets worse and worse and worse. But really worse!

Piy

Scotland3152 Posts

July 18 2010 23:08 GMT

#49

So the actual dilemma is that you will die if you pull the lever but the other prisoner will go free?

It isn't really a dilemma as it depends on the personalities and morals of both people. It's kind of a paradox if you apply game theory. Two computers would forever remain in prison if both attempted to follow the best way to win.

I'd probably pull the lever pretty quickly, unless the form of death was particularly unpleasant compared to being in the prison.

RhaegarBeast

Bulgaria113 Posts

July 18 2010 23:09 GMT

#50

What does death mean to you?

nath

United States1788 Posts

July 18 2010 23:14 GMT

#51

On July 19 2010 08:09 RhaegarBeast wrote:
What does death mean to you?

this is why i hate talking with philosophers, when u answer their question they ask u shit like this

catamorphist

United States297 Posts

July 18 2010 23:17 GMT

#52

I don't understand why this question is interesting. Any clarification?

Count9

China10928 Posts

July 18 2010 23:21 GMT

#53

It pretty much all depends on how bad this "suffering" is.

Breaking it down:


Me / Other Guy      Pull                Don't Pull
Pull                N/A                 I die
Don't Pull          I go free           I suffer

So if I choose pull, I just die. If I don't pull I get a choice between going free and suffering. So if the suffering is better than death and will never be worse than death, not pulling would be the obvious choice. If the suffering will get worse than death, then it depend on how big the difference between the positive (going free) and the negative (suffering) is and how that compares to the negative value of death. I'd just make a choice based on that quantity.

RhaegarBeast

Bulgaria113 Posts

July 18 2010 23:24 GMT

#54

Btw, you can imagine the prison in any way you want - it might be a sort of earthly hell where you never accomplish what you crave etc.. Or just a blank prison. The point is to reach a conclusion about what is important. To find meaning. The exact version is not that important as long as it is consistent.

RhaegarBeast

Bulgaria113 Posts

July 18 2010 23:27 GMT

#55

I'm facing a serious dillema in that to make the problem completely clear I will have to give out the solution. Sorry about that, but I think it's interesting either way.

Grend

1600 Posts

July 18 2010 23:29 GMT

#56

When did the dilemma get inverted?
In the second version where I die when I pull it, I will assume that the other one is an exact clone of myself and thus I should pull the lever at once so as to spare me and my clone from suffering alot of pain before we simultaneously kill eachother anyway.
Btw, should have picked a different name as to avoid game theory confusion.

RhaegarBeast

Bulgaria113 Posts

July 18 2010 23:33 GMT

#57

I think it doesn't matter how exactly the problem is defined, as long as it is defined well, so choose whatever is most interesting to you.

Entropic

Canada2837 Posts

July 18 2010 23:42 GMT

#58

On July 19 2010 08:21 Count9 wrote:
It pretty much all depends on how bad this "suffering" is.

Breaking it down:


Me / Other Guy      Pull                Don't Pull
Pull                N/A                 I die
Don't Pull          I go free           I suffer

Don't Pull

Going Free > N/A
Suffering > Dying (assumption)

So it's desirable to "Don't Pull" regardless of what "Other Guy" does.

I was about to make the game table myself but you already did it. Of course then the Nash equilibrium would be DontPull/DontPull resulting in both of you suffering (assuming a true prisoner's dilemma).

RhaegarBeast

Bulgaria113 Posts

July 18 2010 23:43 GMT

#59

I just hope someone decides that this is a profound problem and I don't get flamed much. :D