[Philosophy] Profound prisoner's dilemma. - Page 2

GGTeMpLaR

United States7226 Posts

July 18 2010 22:40 GMT

#21

On July 19 2010 07:35 kzn wrote:
You pull that lever in 0.1 seconds flat.

How is this even a dilemma?

well in the Game Theory version, both parties act rationally but doing so they produce an irrational/undesirable result, which might be considered a paradox I guess

as for his dilemma, I guess it might be considered an ethical issue to some - personal benefit at the expense of others (although it's debatable)

RhaegarBeast

Bulgaria113 Posts

July 18 2010 22:40 GMT

#22

I'm updating the problem.

Win.win

United States230 Posts

July 18 2010 22:42 GMT

#23

what do you mean by identical prisoner? he's a clone of you with the same life experiences?

ZERG_RUSSIAN

10417 Posts

July 18 2010 22:45 GMT

#24

On July 19 2010 07:15 RhaegarBeast wrote:
This is a riddle that has plagued me for about 10 years and I think I finally found a satisfying solution; I believe I finally understood it.

"You are a total prisoner of an unknown mage. You slowly realize that there is absolutely no escape and then the mage gives you a lever and tells you that it is connected to an identical one in an identical prison with an identical prisoner. He says that as long as the lever remains unpressed you both remain in the prison. But when someone actually decides to press it then the other prisoner dies and the remaining one goes free. The prison is rather tormenting and both prisoners really want to get out. What will eventually happen? It actually depends on the person that you ask. What is your solution to the problem? What would you do? What would the average person do? What happens? Does the end justify the means? THINK ABOUT IT!" The solution gets more awesome the more I think about it.

Btw, I first saw a version of this riddle in Baldur's Gate II.

Edit: The other prisoner learns this at the same time as you do. The mage can make you really "know" that everything that is written is true.

Is this a trick? Because there's absolutely no reason not to pull the lever as soon as possible in your version. Usually there's some sort of "if both players don't pull it they can both _______" clause.

GGTeMpLaR

United States7226 Posts

July 18 2010 22:47 GMT

#25

+ Show Spoiler +

On July 19 2010 07:45 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:

Show nested quote +

yea, like if one pulls it and the other doesn't, they get the greatest benefit, if both pull it they get benefit but less than if neither pull it. however if you don't pull it and the other person does, you lose it all.

RhaegarBeast

Bulgaria113 Posts

July 18 2010 22:48 GMT

#26

Oops, I intended to give another version first. This one is too complicated.

Version 1.0 - The more you stand in the prison the more you suffer. If you press the lever you die and the other one goes free.

Version 2.0 will be the one I posted, but keep in mind it's also meaningful.

danl9rm

United States3111 Posts

July 18 2010 22:48 GMT

#27

I would not pull the lever. And I'm fairly certain I could sustain torture for longer than the other guy. Yes, that means I would die.

NonY

8748 Posts

July 18 2010 22:49 GMT

#28

On July 19 2010 07:42 Win.win wrote:
what do you mean by identical prisoner? he's a clone of you with the same life experiences?

'Prisoner' is a role. It's not a proper noun...

StRyKeR

United States1739 Posts

July 18 2010 22:51 GMT

#29

Hmm, interesting. The new Version 1.0 is interesting...

If you decide to just endure the torture assuming that the other prisoner will eventually cave in, you both might end up being tortured indefinitely (probably till both die).

So the question is, do you act to save the other person? You might as well, since if both of you keep enduring, you'll both die. But there's a chance that the other will cave in first, so maybe not?

I'd probably try to endure it as much as possible.

RhaegarBeast

Bulgaria113 Posts

July 18 2010 22:53 GMT

#30

On July 19 2010 07:42 Win.win wrote:
what do you mean by identical prisoner? he's a clone of you with the same life experiences?

Basically, yes. Smart guy.

Navi

5286 Posts

July 18 2010 22:54 GMT

#31

If the prisoners are truly identical, they would "know" that if they pulled the lever, the other prisoner would do the same at the same time, and thus they would both die (unless the mage has some system in case they both pull at the same time). For instance, if the prisoners were both hotheads, they would immediately pull the lever while their counterpart would as well, and they would both die. If they thought it out, they would realize that this would occur regardless of how long they waited, and thus they would realize that the sooner they pulled the lever, the sooner that both could escape the torment inside of the prison.

So TL;DR: pull leverz n die for both parties

GGTeMpLaR

United States7226 Posts

July 18 2010 22:54 GMT

#32

that makes a ton more sense than the original lol

it would probably come down to whoever has more to live for and can sustain more suffering

NonY

8748 Posts

July 18 2010 22:54 GMT

#33

Well then this is how I see it...

Freedom is good. Death is neutral. Prison is bad.

Going from prison to death is a good change. Going from prison to freedom is a good change. Pull the lever.

Or if I think the other guy might value a life in prison more than death, and I have a whim of altruism, I'll wait an hour to give him a chance to pull the lever. During that time, I expect him to decide if a guilty conscience is going to prevent him from getting the proper benefit out of his pulling the lever. If he doesn't pull it after an hour, I'll pull it, because I believe he'd be better off that way, and I know I'd be better off that way, and I'd be sure to not let a guilty conscience affect my happiness while free.

RhaegarBeast

Bulgaria113 Posts

July 18 2010 22:54 GMT

#34

Prisoner is a state of being in this case. It's like a type of animal - Prisoner.

RhaegarBeast

Bulgaria113 Posts

July 18 2010 22:55 GMT

#35

Now, you gotta specify which version you're talking about or mayham will ensue.

nath

United States1788 Posts

July 18 2010 22:56 GMT

#36

On July 19 2010 07:51 StRyKeR wrote:
Hmm, interesting. The new Version 1.0 is interesting...

If you decide to just endure the torture assuming that the other prisoner will eventually cave in, you both might end up being tortured indefinitely (probably till both die).

So the question is, do you act to save the other person? You might as well, since if both of you keep enduring, you'll both die. But there's a chance that the other will cave in first, so maybe not?

I'd probably try to endure it as much as possible.

i'd just wait. he may cave! i might cave too lol, although we all like to think we're strong enough to handle torture.

RhaegarBeast

Bulgaria113 Posts

July 18 2010 22:58 GMT

#37

I'm not giving any more hints. I'm guessing many people will disagree with the whole idea, I like it a lot though.

Mohdoo

United States15673 Posts

July 18 2010 22:58 GMT

#38

I'd immediately press it.

KwarK

United States42596 Posts

July 18 2010 22:59 GMT

#39

The main question is more interesting. At first your situation seems hopeless, a choice between torment or death, but then you realise the other can free you. You simply need to endure it for longer than he does. Then, no matter how hard it gets, you know he's suffering in the same way and that gives you hope because the worse it gets, the nearer they are to breaking. It's a self perpetuating system. If the torture gets worse then both would eventually break at the same time but if not then it may continue indefinitately.