EPTAnyway seems like in this version you pull the lever when you can no longer endure it and would rather die. Though it seems dependent on self interest and empathy as well.
[Philosophy] Profound prisoner's dilemma. - Page 5
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stroggos
New Zealand1543 Posts
Anyway seems like in this version you pull the lever when you can no longer endure it and would rather die. Though it seems dependent on self interest and empathy as well. | ||
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RhaegarBeast
Bulgaria113 Posts
 Yeah, the popular game theory problem with a similar name says that defection is preferrable. But this is different. If you like to think in game theory, you can imagine that you are each others Nemesis. What then? | ||
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DemiSe
883 Posts
the solution is to wait for batman to stop the joker obviously Glad that someone else noticed the similarities, Batman Winz.No matter what, I'd pull that lever immediately, with no doubts nor regrets. The average man would probably pull the lever, the human race is more "selfish" than you think. I don't really see a reason not to pull the lever, it is between you and the other prisoner, there isn't really a choice. | ||
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RhaegarBeast
Bulgaria113 Posts
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RhaegarBeast
Bulgaria113 Posts
It's my fault. I apologize again. | ||
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HalfAmazing
Netherlands402 Posts
On July 19 2010 10:41 RhaegarBeast wrote: Yeah, the popular game theory problem with a similar name says that defection is preferrable. But this is different. If you like to think in game theory, you can imagine that you are each others Nemesis. What then? Not true. The best long term approach is is a nice, forgiving, but retaliating strategy. The reason for this is that you only lose a little bit when you play a 'cheat', as you instantly retaliate, but rack up the points when matched with another nice player. This is the most profitable strategy over time, although a cheat would beat you in a single game. | ||
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RhaegarBeast
Bulgaria113 Posts
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SolHeiM
Sweden1264 Posts
But if I'm being held hostage by said mage, imprisoned against my will, I might not have the same detachment to killing the person in the other prison. I've never actually been faced with the choice of living or dying so I can't say for sure. But at the moment, if I'm a hostage and my HT hands me a gun and says "kill him and you go free," I don't know about you, but I would probably pull the trigger. | ||
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Starfox
Austria699 Posts
1.) None pulls lever 2.) A pulls lever, B dies 3.) B pulls lever, A dies There is no 4th, dead people don't pull levers | ||
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SolHeiM
Sweden1264 Posts
On July 19 2010 11:04 Starfox wrote: Wouldn't it only be a dilemma if the lever killed yourself and set the other one free, perhaps not even then because there are only 3 possible outcomes, not 4. 1.) None pulls lever 2.) A pulls lever, B dies 3.) B pulls lever, A dies There is no 4th, dead people don't pull levers Yeah, but the real dilemma in my opinion is whether or not you can live with yourself knowing you've essentially caused the death of another human being. The scenario is very confusing, because a prisoner can be a prisoner for many different reasons, and you're imagining yourself as a prisoner. Why are you a prisoner? Are you a murderer? Or are you a prisoner because you committed something basically harmless, say... video piracy? The morals of the murderer may not be the same as the morals of the, eh.. pirate. | ||
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Scaramanga
Australia8091 Posts
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SolHeiM
Sweden1264 Posts
On July 19 2010 11:08 Scaramanga wrote: I would press it as quickly as i could, i'd say it was self defence because i knew if i didnt press that leaver first the chances are that he would and i don't want to die Yeah, most people would think that. But the real issue is knowing you've caused the death of another person. If it's an identical person to you, and you have a wife and kid who love you and you love them, could you live with yourself knowing you've caused the death of another person, hurting their wife and child? | ||
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GGTeMpLaR
United States7226 Posts
like that story you hear about the avalanche and people eat each other to stay alive long enough to get rescued is it ethical to take life if it ensures the preservation of life that would have been lost anyways, do the ends justify the means, etc IDK | ||
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RhaegarBeast
Bulgaria113 Posts
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Grijzeham
United Kingdom50 Posts
How far does "identical" go? a clone?, same sex / age?, two random healthy people with few real similarities?. As far as the second scenario goes I'd pull the lever either I die or I go free because I was slower, either way I'm not suffering for eternity. + Show Spoiler + Somewhat unrelated but I'm an idiot and have to mention it, I notice some folks saying (or at least hinting) that humans are "selfish" it seems somewhat funny to me that this assumption is made, how are we as humans selfish? we've yet to discover other "intelligent" life for all we know we're moral messiahs. Animals are no different the only difference is we make decisions based on morals , logic and other such man made concepts. Animals act on instinct and would not hesitate in to save themselves at the expense of others the difference being that they wouldn't even view it as murder it would be survival. Survival of the fittest if I recall. Sorry for the unrelated jibber jabber. | ||
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Stropheum
United States1124 Posts
On July 19 2010 08:50 RhaegarBeast wrote: Btw, there is metaphysics involved. If you don't like metaphysics, then I apologize for wasting your time. I don't think this is metaphysics so much as it's a utilitarian situation mixed with a little bit of egoism. Gonna critique the "second" scenario btw Utilitarian Perspective: Minimize pain+Maximize pleasure - Neither party pulls the lever and both are tortured for eternity (supposing the mage has the ability to prolong their lives. I assume he does, otherwise what's the point of making him a mage in the first place if his magical abilities are irrelevant to this dilemma?) -Both parties attempt to endure the torture for as long as possible while eventually one or both go for the lever and either one or both die (assuming that if both levers are pulled at the same time, both will die) -One or both parties immediately go for the lever, completely sidestepping any misery by both parties. Either both die immediately, preventing any suffering from occuring, or one dies and one goes free, also ending the suffering immediately. The utilitarian would pull the lever immediately. Also, the inflated value of ones own self has to be factored in If the fellow prisoner is a total stranger who you've never seen/heard/been told their name, then there is such a large detachment there that the situation would only further inflate the self worth of the prisoners by comparison, therefore further pushing them towards pulling the lever Another interesting thing to consider is what the lever SPECIFICALLY does. There are two specific conditions which could change the choices of many people - First of all, the levers could say, be connected to trap doors in the opposite cells while at the same time be connected to the rig that would unlock the cell in which it sits. - Secondly, the levers could merely be connected to the doors that let the prisoner free The important difference is that if the levers only open the doors and the mage then kills the remaining prisoner himself, it does shed a bit of responsibility from the convict, as he cannot be blamed for the mage attempting to keep a prisoner in an (essentially) unlocked cell with the threat of killing an unseen (and potentially nonexistent) stranger While this at first seemed like it made a very large difference, I know think that it doesn't as much as before. If you think about it, if the whole rig with trap doors/falling spikes/poison darts/whatever you want it to be is really the scenario we're dealing with, the whole situation was initiated by the mage and he is responsible for anything that happens, as he's guilty for kidnapping, torture, harassment and coercion. For these reasons I think it's not only the most humane choice for both parties to pull the lever ASAP | ||
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YejinYejin
United States1053 Posts
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Ploppytheman
United States248 Posts
So you have to suffer or wait for the other person to pull the lever. | ||
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RhaegarBeast
Bulgaria113 Posts
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darmousseh
United States3437 Posts
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