In actuality I ran some different tests to determine the most likely scenario using genetic algorithms. My results have come up differently based on the initial population. If the population is spread evenly or normally distributed, then the population will eventually shift to everyone always distrust. If the population is heavily trusting initially, then the population will shift to mostly trusting.

Not sure how to interpret my results considering they are based on genetic simulations, but if anyone wants I can share the code I have and you can run your own tests.

I think the only interpretation that I have is that the answer to the question is based on someone's disposition about humans in general. This is why I believe there is a hidden factor that underlines why something like 60% distrust, while 40% trust.

kzn

United States1218 Posts

July 19 2010 05:26 GMT

#102

I don't understand why the population wouldn't shift to distrusting if there was even one distrusting agent within the population.

Every time a "distrust" decision is made, shouldn't that 'convert' some trusting agents to distrusting ones, and start off a chain reaction?

Coagulation

United States9633 Posts

July 19 2010 05:53 GMT

#103

Self preservation is the most primal component of humanity.

i dont understand what the big mystery is here

i have a feeling your solution is gonna be very underwhelming.

semantics

10040 Posts

July 19 2010 06:07 GMT

#104

Both of your lives suck, although i wouldn't try the mage and may think it's a trap if i pull the lever it may kill me, but frankly both of us suffering is bullshit, if one can give himself to help the other fuck it.

Hell if it kills both of us idc it may crush our changes of both getting out but at least we aren't being tortured any longer.

RhaegarBeast

Bulgaria113 Posts

July 19 2010 06:58 GMT

#105

Weird enough, I got better responses from you guys, then from the wise guys at 2+2 science and philosophy forum. No flame whatsoever... You guys are awesome!

Badjas

Netherlands2038 Posts

July 19 2010 07:10 GMT

#106

Pull the lever. A life without freedom is not a life at all. Not pulling the lever = being dead, for both.

semantics

10040 Posts

July 19 2010 07:16 GMT

#107

It be a tougher situation if you didn't gain your freedom and the other guy didn't die, such as suffering increases for the other guy and your suffering goes down.

But here the end game is clearly in sight.

Badjas

Netherlands2038 Posts

July 19 2010 07:16 GMT

#108

It'd be more interesting if pulling the lever would set the other guy/girl free, and keep you locked up in prison forever.

semantics

10040 Posts

July 19 2010 07:21 GMT

#109

Yes that is interesting as well, although if i didn't know the person i would just be more inclined to let them free, if i knew the person i'd probably spend more time rationalizing my decision.

Either way i'd be more inclined to make a quick decision and move on, i'm being tortured and frankly going days on end is boring at least then i can force the mage to come up with more schemes. Maybe over time win over his friendship, then when he lets me out of the cage a few months later backstab his ass.

Revenge!!!! best revenge is to cut the mages enjoyment short.

Badjas

Netherlands2038 Posts

July 19 2010 07:30 GMT

#110

But the decision to not pull the lever can always be undone, which means you'll always be thinking about the option. And pulling the lever will doom you, with the only reward the idea that someone who you don't know, will be happy with your action, while never getting that acknowledged.

semantics

10040 Posts

July 19 2010 07:36 GMT

#111

Idc, someone is better off then me it's okay i remove the self sanctification from the mage. I don't need heroics to be acknowledged i just want the mage to pay and not pulling the leveler may not change my situation but it will change someones else's. And from that i can make my decision quite easily, not knowing the person makes it easier for me not to justify my life over theirs.

Grobyc

Canada18410 Posts

July 19 2010 07:42 GMT

#112

Well personally I'd take the selfish way and pull the lever because, well, life isn't very fun if you're dead. I also have no idea what the other person is thinking. If they would pull it then fuck them, they just killed me, not cool. If they would choose not to pull it I'm sure they would want me to pull it because it's doubtful they would want us to both just suffer.

Just a more extreme version of "shotgun" when racing to grab the passenger seat of a car with your friends. Fuck you guys, that shit is mine lololol

RhaegarBeast

Bulgaria113 Posts

July 19 2010 07:42 GMT

#113

Niiiiice. Lots of courage there. I love it.

The rabbit hole goes even deeper though.

semantics

10040 Posts

July 19 2010 07:43 GMT

#114

You know it's a matter of how long am i willing to wait till i finally let the other person go. And to what i come to conclude is that if i choose to give a period of waiting time my resolve will falter and i'll fall into the trap of waiting and waiting, while if i just do it i can help another and ruin the mages fun vs if i just wait we both suffer making a hard decision and the mages enjoys this. We both can't get out in this hypothetical scenario so might as well make the decision to save one of us and make it fast.

semantics

10040 Posts

July 19 2010 07:46 GMT

#115

On July 19 2010 16:42 Grobyc wrote:
Well personally I'd take the selfish way and pull the lever because, well, life isn't very fun if you're dead. I also have no idea what the other person is thinking. If they would pull it then fuck them, they just killed me, not cool. If they would choose not to pull it I'm sure they would want me to pull it because it's doubtful they would want us to both just suffer.

Just a more extreme version of "shotgun" when racing to grab the passenger seat of a car with your friends. Fuck you guys, that shit is mine lololol

Either way i see it in these kinds of situations the best result is to do the action quickly that way at least one of you can get more time out of life, sure it sucks if you die but you know the best thing about being dead you can't complain.

Both suffer is not an option in my book unless over time you observe a way to break out in which you can take turns killing that bastard who locked you up.

RhaegarBeast

Bulgaria113 Posts

July 19 2010 07:48 GMT

#116

Awesome.

You're going trough the same thought process as I did. This doesn't mean it's the best though. It's just values, choices and consequences. Are they arbitrary or can the prisoner come to know universal morality while in prison?

There are still loose ends and other alternatives though..

lOvOlUNiMEDiA

United States643 Posts

July 19 2010 07:52 GMT

#117

I think this question is a waste of time.

First of all, why does the OP think that the moral aspect of this question will end up any differently than the other morality threads on TL?

As far as the P.D. scenario, what possible application could this scenario have to my or anyone else's life? To even use this scenario as a model would require so many unwarranted assumptions that it would have no, or next to no, predictive applicability.

RhaegarBeast

Bulgaria113 Posts

July 19 2010 07:54 GMT

#118

I wish more people realized that this situation illustrates how seemingly impossible inner strength is born out of absolute necessity.

RhaegarBeast

Bulgaria113 Posts

July 19 2010 07:57 GMT

#119

The original prisoner may die, but he's more than just a prisoner after he's made his choice. He has found something akin to free will and perhaps something will remain in his place...