EPT[Philosophy] Profound prisoner's dilemma. - Page 8
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semantics
10040 Posts
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endy
Switzerland8970 Posts
About the "important edit" : if the situtation is strictly identical in both prisons, and the other prisoner is a clone, then both of them must have exactly the same ability to bear torture, hence press the lever at the exact same time. | ||
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RhaegarBeast
Bulgaria113 Posts
On July 19 2010 17:38 semantics wrote: I'm just trying to be as obstinate as possible as my choice doesn't truly effect a prisoner who no longer exists after i let him free at least to me, just refusing to participate in the captors game is the ultimate expression of not being dominated by another. If you could really muster the strength to shout fuck you in the face of your evil master, then I salute you! You're a true berserker! :D | ||
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RhaegarBeast
Bulgaria113 Posts
On July 19 2010 17:40 endy wrote: I can't see any dillema with the first version. Just press the fucking lever. About the "important edit" : if the situtation is strictly identical in both prisons, and the other prisoner is a clone, then both of them must have exactly the same ability to bear torture, hence press the lever at the exact same time. Absolutely identical or just very similar - both ways work fine. The first dilemma is not any simpler, it is more counter-intuitive. By the time the piece of the prison that is called a Prisoner can come to the conclusion that self-preservation is super important, a lot of time will have passed. Nothing is certain. He might reach the conclusion that by accepting suffering and hopelessness he becomes absolutely alive and strong in the end. Or more down-to-earth - he might just fall in love with the other guy that still hasn't killed him and decide on the impossible quest - together, alive and happy for all time! Now, this would require an insane amount of trust in oneself and in the other, but the reward is divine. It really isn't as straightforward as it seems! | ||
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LegendaryZ
United States1583 Posts
On July 19 2010 17:37 RhaegarBeast wrote: Why are you all ignoring what actually happens when you die or leave the prison? I will repeat myself. "it clearly illustrates how incredible pressure creates life out of a piece of a prison cell." Assuming that dying means that you die and that leaving the prison means that you're leaving the prison and no longer being tortured, then I am assuming that what happens afterward is exactly that. You presented two scenarios and asked how we feel people would respond in the given circumstances. We answered accordingly. If you want to make this about some philosophical nonsense, please state that clearly in the OP. The fact is that when you're a regular person in that situation, you're thinking "life vs. death", not about the implications of each or the deeper meaning behind either choice. I really think you're trying to turn this into much more than it actually is. In actuality, the question is pretty straightforward... I can tell you that it took me all of 10 seconds to realize that pulling the lever in the first scenario is the logically sound choice and 9 of those seconds were spent to make sure that I didn't misread something because the answer was just THAT obvious... | ||
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RhaegarBeast
Bulgaria113 Posts
Being a hopeless prisoner in a perfect prison basically makes him exactly a part of the prison. The only way we could call him alive would be if we could know that he was conscious. Since this is impossible, we can safely say that the prisoner is not a living being by any currently accepted standard. | ||
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BottleAbuser
Korea (South)1888 Posts
1: Person A presses the lever first. A is happy, B is dead. 2: Person B presses the lever first: B is happy, A is dead. 3: They both do not press the lever. A is unhappy, B is unhappy. 4: They both press the lever simultaneously. (Not sure if this is possible, and not sure of the outcome. Actually, if both people are identical, they will both make the same choice, at the same time, so possibly outcomes 1 and 2 are not possible, and only 3 and 4 are possible.) Only the third option seems like a no-no to me. I'd rather be dead than unhappy (or free rather than unhappy, but I think that's assumed). In fact, if the outcome was "you both die instantly if one of you presses the lever" my answer wouldn't change: there is no point in endless suffering. Since the prisoner is identical to me, I assume he shares my philosophy. Besides, one of me free, doing my thing, is preferable to having two versions of me just suffering. That's the state right now, anyways. Oh, and there is no "divine reward" in suffering eternally. GG. | ||
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endy
Switzerland8970 Posts
On July 19 2010 17:46 RhaegarBeast wrote: Absolutely identical or just very similar - both ways work fine. The first dilemma is not any simpler, it is more counter-intuitive. By the time the piece of the prison that is called a Prisoner can come to the conclusion that self-preservation is super important, a lot of time will have passed. Nothing is certain. He might reach the conclusion that by accepting suffering and hopelessness he becomes absolutely alive and strong in the end. Or more down-to-earth - he might just fall in love with the other guy that still hasn't killed him and decide on the impossible quest - together, alive and happy for all time! It really isn't as straightforward as it seems! I still don't get it and how it can be a dillema. In the examples you gave, you imply, and even say it explicitly in the end, that he can be happy. But one of the postulate was that the prison was tormenting and that he could not enjoy it. | ||
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Electric.Jesus
Germany755 Posts
Lets take the version where you have to pull the lever to free yourself by killing the other person. From a utilitarian point of view (Stropheum has already elaborated on that in a very sophisticated way above) it is clear that you run to the lever as fast as you possibly can. However, some people are strict deontologists, that is, they are unwilling to take action that violates morality regardless of the good it could achieve. A deontologist would not pull the lever because it would harm another person which is not moral. That is, if the prisoner is a deontologist and its co-prisnoer is an identical copy, then they would both be tortured for the rest of their lives because none of them would consider committing an immoral act a valid option. Note that they would not even consider it if they knew it would end the other person's suffering. If you compare that to the utilitarian view (again, see Stropheum's post) it becomes evident that the "correct" choice strongly depends on the respective individual's moral reasoning. Depending on whether it is utilitarianism or deontologism, the correct (= consistent with the person's moral reasoning) choice is pulling the lever in the utilitarian case, and not doing so in the deontological one. | ||
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RhaegarBeast
Bulgaria113 Posts
The dilemma is about life and death, values, choices and consequences. | ||
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
I suppose you can't kill yourself in any other way, but with the lever. But suppose that you can. I don't like the outcome. What remains of you? Nothing? Eternal part of the prison that doesn't give a shit? .I never said that the prisoner is taken fully grown out of this world. On the contrary - I've implied that he knows nothing else than the prison. He is as grown-up as a newborn at the time of his awakening I didn't see this being implied anywhere in your riddle. | ||
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BottleAbuser
Korea (South)1888 Posts
Here's a simpler one that gets to the point faster: You are sitting in a room. There is a door that leads to somewhere else, but you don't know where. You know that if you take the door, you can't come back to this place. There is also a lever that will kill you instantaneously. Obviously, if you take this option, you cannot come back here and choose the other option. What do you do? | ||
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RhaegarBeast
Bulgaria113 Posts
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opsayo
591 Posts
you're right rhaegar, who knows what happens after we are freed from prison? so why in the world are you discouraging that solution? it sounds like you're the one who's making a ton of assumptions On July 19 2010 17:52 RhaegarBeast wrote: I never said that the prisoner is taken fully grown out of this world. On the contrary - I've implied that he knows nothing else than the prison. He is as grown-up as a newborn at the time of his awakening. Being a hopeless prisoner in a perfect prison basically makes him exactly a part of the prison. The only way we could call him alive would be if we could know that he was conscious. Since this is impossible, we can safely say that the prisoner is not a living being by any currently accepted standard. i think you should post what you are trying to say rather than guiding the entire conversation despite the fact that no one has any idea what you are getting at | ||
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semantics
10040 Posts
On July 19 2010 17:42 RhaegarBeast wrote: If you could really muster the strength to shout fuck you in the face of your evil master, then I salute you! You're a true berserker! :D The way i have come to know myself, i find it hard for me to see myself doing anything a person who i have no respect or inclination to obey, he does not control my freedom the other guy does. In which case all i wish to do is display my dislike for the person holding my captive. I refuse to die to someone for nothing but a game to another. As i thought more about this problem i tended to take the position of putting myself in one of the prisoners place. And as i thought about it i thought more and more about revenge and escape things that would become very deer to me as i was being tortured. I would like to pull the lever and kill myself of my own accord but i just assumed that was not possible, like a giant weight would crush me as soon as a pulled the lever. The thing is for me not to have control of who i am what i do, to be controlled by another is something that boils my blood. | ||
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semantics
10040 Posts
On July 19 2010 18:03 RhaegarBeast wrote: Look, the problem with the first case is that by the time that you get to be like a 24 year philosophy major and "know" that you have to press the lever, you've already realized that the other guy is the closest thing to you that exists in the universe and he still hasn't killed you. So it gets COMPLICATED. Besides, this is not as clear-cut as it seems. You're both too pot-commited and immersed in the matrix to let it go just like that. It might be hopeless, but if you're such a good philosopher you should know that real paradoxes exist in the world and what we believe to be impossible should often be put to the test. I only find that important if i could talk to the other prisoner, and have the prisoner to prisoner relationship. Else i just focused on the captor, captive relationship of my decision. | ||
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RhaegarBeast
Bulgaria113 Posts
On July 19 2010 18:02 BottleAbuser wrote: If that's your real problem, then you don't need the elaborate riddle. Here's a simpler one that gets to the point faster: You are sitting in a room. There is a door that leads to somewhere else, but you don't know where. You know that if you take the door, you can't come back to this place. There is also a lever that will kill you instantaneously. Obviously, if you take this option, you cannot come back here and choose the other option. What do you do? The unknown against the void? That's a good one, but since you have no information or incentive on which to base your decision, I have no idea what would ever make you leave that chair.Only outside pressure. You are not alive. I still like the prisoner dilemma much better. | ||
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BottleAbuser
Korea (South)1888 Posts
You are an entity within a room. You have always been here, and you know nothing else, not even language or anything about the universe, except for your prison's setup. However, this completely changes the problem, because now we're starting from a blank slate and you're asking us to fill it in. Anything goes, and only logically inconsistent answers (or if we're accepting emotions, not even those) are rejected. It's like asking us to create a fictional universe, with no constraints. There's no way to evaluate the answers, because very possibly none of our values are relevant to the answers constructed. | ||
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RhaegarBeast
Bulgaria113 Posts
On July 19 2010 18:05 semantics wrote: The way i have come to know myself, i find it hard for me to see myself doing anything a person who i have no respect or inclination to obey, he does not control my freedom the other guy does. In which case all i wish to do is display my dislike for the person holding my captive. I refuse to die to someone for nothing but a game to another. As i thought more about this problem i tended to take the position of putting myself in one of the prisoners place. And as i thought about it i thought more and more about revenge and escape things that would become very deer to me as i was being tortured. I would like to pull the lever and kill myself of my own accord but i just assumed that was not possible, like a giant weight would crush me as soon as a pulled the lever. The thing is for me not to have control of who i am what i do, to be controlled by another is something that boils my blood. You can be leveled for the amusement of the mage. Like for example - he sets everything up for your release and eternal happyness and then tricks you into getting mad and killing yourself then laughs histerically forever.  That doesn't seem to be against what he told you right? | ||
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zergnewb
United States816 Posts
Anways I would pull the lever instantly. Death is tragic but no matter how much you fear it you'll never take a life of prison and torture. Even if the guy has a family I really think they would rather he was dead than suffering until he dies. | ||
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