EPT[Philosophy] Profound prisoner's dilemma. - Page 7
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LegendaryZ
United States1583 Posts
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Coagulation
United States9633 Posts
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RhaegarBeast
Bulgaria113 Posts
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RhaegarBeast
Bulgaria113 Posts
On July 19 2010 17:04 JinMaikeul wrote: It's not really a dilemma if your choice is between freedom/death vs. endless torture for the remainder of your life... I would imagine most normal human beings under the given circumstances would immediately pull the lever because even death would be more attractive than existing in a state of perpetual torment... You may hope that the other one sacrifices before you. The key here is that you are forced to choose your values out of ultimate necessity. If you fail to do that you might actually cease to exist once you're "freed". | ||
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Coagulation
United States9633 Posts
your saying that if he doesn't take action he is somehow void of life? | ||
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LegendaryZ
United States1583 Posts
On July 19 2010 17:08 RhaegarBeast wrote: You may hope that the other one sacrifices before you. The key here is that you are forced to choose your values out of ultimate necessity. If you fail to do that you might actually cease to exist once you're "freed". According to the OP, if I press the lever, the other guy dies and I go free. If I don't press the lever, either he kills me or I continue to be tortured while remaining in prison. Where exactly in that situation is the incentive for me not to press the lever? | ||
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Coagulation
United States9633 Posts
On July 19 2010 17:10 JinMaikeul wrote: According to the OP, if I press the lever, the other guy dies and I go free. If I don't press the lever, either he kills me or I continue to be tortured while remaining in prison. Where exactly in that situation is the incentive for me not to press the lever? i think he fucked up the op and added an edit with a different scenario involving the Lever being pulled causes it to kill you and release the other prisoner. | ||
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RhaegarBeast
Bulgaria113 Posts
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RhaegarBeast
Bulgaria113 Posts
On July 19 2010 17:10 Coagulation wrote: ok so a man is defined by his actions your saying that if he doesn't take action he is somehow void of life? This is a mages prison. Originally you were the perfect prisoner in the perfect prison. If this doesn't change until the end, once you are freed of the prison God knows what will happen. You might very well cease to exist. I guess it might be weird to look at things like that. We're so used to defining people in engineering terms that we forget what it means to be alive. If you're just a cog in the prison wheels, once the prison is taken away from you, you are left with NOTHING. | ||
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JeeJee
Canada5652 Posts
the second one is interesting though.. i'll sleep on it | ||
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semantics
10040 Posts
On July 19 2010 17:13 Coagulation wrote: i think he fucked up the op and added an edit with a different scenario involving the Lever being pulled causes it to kill you and release the other prisoner. Ofc i do wonder the torture, how bad is it i mean most things people can get used to crap and i know they can't kill me so cutting is not allowed, there is some satisfaction in the fuck you of saying "i wont play this game" But there is a matter of how you are not playing this game, are you in the belief that playing the game is in making the decision. That assumes the game is the mage is in control and you want power back by not giving into him. Ofc on the other side is playing the game is drolling over the decision tormenting ones self in making the decision. In which case to make the decision quickly is the fuck you, if you don't pull the lever the mage assumes you are still thinking about it which may not be true but would be rather hard to prove the fuck you to the mage. Which either case i'm fixated on saying fuck you to the mage. How about i just take off my clothes and choke myself to death with it as the final fuck you to that mage.Completely saying I wont stay here torturing myself along with saying i refuse to make a decision and play your game. | ||
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RhaegarBeast
Bulgaria113 Posts
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LegendaryZ
United States1583 Posts
On July 19 2010 17:13 Coagulation wrote: i think he fucked up the op and added an edit with a different scenario involving the Lever being pulled causes it to kill you and release the other prisoner. Then I'd say that neither person would pull the lever unless the torture was so horrendous that he didn't care about living anymore. A prisoner's dilemma is supposed to give a personal incentive for cooperation, feeding off peoples' natural selfishness and seeing if they can do away with that for the sake of both parties. Having the person unilaterally cooperating being punished for it completely goes against that format. It stops being a question of selfishness vs. selflessness, and instead it becomes a question of whether or nor you still care about living. In this version, if you care about living you won't pull the lever. If you no longer care or if the prospect of living in those conditions seems worse than death, then you'll pull it and the effect of it (whether the other guy live or dies) doesn't matter either way since your primary reason for pulling it has to do with your lack of will to live rather than anything else. | ||
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Coagulation
United States9633 Posts
On July 19 2010 17:20 semantics wrote: Ofc i do wonder the torture, how bad is it i mean most things people can get used to crap and i know they can't kill me so cutting is not allowed, there is some satisfaction in the fuck you of saying "i wont play this game" But there is a matter of how you are not playing this game, are you in the belief that playing the game is in making the decision. That assumes the game is the mage is in control and you want power back by not giving into him. Ofc on the other side is playing the game is drolling over the decision tormenting ones self in making the decision. In which case to make the decision quickly is the fuck you, if you don't pull the lever the mage assumes you are still thinking about it which may not be true but would be rather hard to prove the fuck you to the mage. How about i just take off my clothes and choke myself to death with it as the final fuck you to that mage.Completely saying I wont stay here torturing myself along with saying i refuse to make a decision and play your game. if your gonna die you might as well free the other guy in the process for fucks sake. | ||
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semantics
10040 Posts
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LegendaryZ
United States1583 Posts
On July 19 2010 17:27 semantics wrote: The more i think about the more i am inclined to kill myself, removing myself from the responsibility of making the decision. But whether to kill yourself or not is pretty much the only decision you have the responsibility of making and by doing so, you haven't removed yourself from that responsibility at all, but rather undertook it. This is assuming that you're talking about the situation where pulling the lever kills you and frees the other guy, of course. You're not deciding the other guy's fate. You're deciding your own... There's a reason just about every iteration of this dilemma involves you having the power to harm the other person in the story rather than this version where your only power in taking action is to harm yourself. Try to imagine that scene in The Dark Knight with the two boats except change it so that each boat only has the power to blow itself up. I guarantee you it would be much less dramatic and tense... | ||
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semantics
10040 Posts
On July 19 2010 17:25 Coagulation wrote: if your gonna die you might as well free the other guy in the process for fucks sake. Well there is that, but i get nothing from that. When i think about it why let someone free if you can just kill yourself letting them free is just a side effect. If i just commit suicide i can at least say fuck you to the captor. Ofc there are many other ways of making the captors life harder, perhaps in time i could observe ways to making myself a difficult prisoner for him to handle. But I'd also have to observe how he enjoys doing his responses to my difficulty. Frankly just killing myself is much more efficient in saying fuck you. On July 19 2010 17:31 JinMaikeul wrote: But whether to kill yourself or not is pretty much the only decision you have the responsibility of making and by doing so, you haven't removed yourself from that responsibility at all, but rather undertook it. This is assuming that you're talking about the situation where pulling the lever kills you and frees the other guy, of course. You're not deciding the other guy's fate. You're deciding your own... No i do not pull the lever instead i just kill myself. I see his offer and i just say fuck it and kill myself without pulling the lever. If i can push a button or pull a lever i can probably move enough to kill myself. If hes torturing me he has to feed me and keep my clean and allow me to move to keep myself alive, else it can only last for so long. Haha logistics. | ||
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Coagulation
United States9633 Posts
On July 19 2010 17:31 JinMaikeul wrote: But whether to kill yourself or not is pretty much the only decision you have the responsibility of making and by doing so, you haven't removed yourself from that responsibility at all, but rather undertook it. This is assuming that you're talking about the situation where pulling the lever kills you and frees the other guy, of course. You're not deciding the other guy's fate. You're deciding your own... no hes talking about choking himself with his underwear or some shit leaving the other guy to be tortured forever. | ||
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RhaegarBeast
Bulgaria113 Posts
I believe that the reasons for our choices are incredibly important for the outcome of what gets out of the prison. | ||
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RhaegarBeast
Bulgaria113 Posts
I will repeat myself. "it clearly illustrates how incredible pressure creates life out of a piece of a prison cell." | ||
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