EPT[Philosophy] Profound prisoner's dilemma. - Page 4
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RhaegarBeast
Bulgaria113 Posts
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RhaegarBeast
Bulgaria113 Posts
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catamorphist
United States297 Posts
As far as I can tell, there is no dilemma and no problem to be solved. You apparently have some question in mind, but you won't ask it. (edit: ok, now you asked it, but I think people already answered that one to satisfaction earlier.) | ||
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RhaegarBeast
Bulgaria113 Posts
I wish I could make it as clear as possible without ruining it and also to avoid disappointing someone, but this is all I got for now. I'm going to bed. I hope at least some people find this puzzle as captivating as I did. I apologize to the rest. | ||
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Win.win
United States230 Posts
On July 19 2010 08:56 catamorphist wrote: You haven't yet explained what the interesting problem here is supposed to be. I don't understand why you won't clarify whatever aspect of this scenario captivated you for so long. I don't understand why you are worried about "giving out the solution." As far as I can tell, there is no dilemma and no problem to be solved. You apparently have some question in mind, but you won't ask it. (edit: ok, now you asked it, but I think people already answered that one to satisfaction earlier.) yeah pretty much agree with this. don't see anything profound about it either | ||
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RhaegarBeast
Bulgaria113 Posts
In fact think of life as this prison. I told you - this is a multifaceted problem. | ||
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Slithe
United States985 Posts
I think it's better if you don't try and micromanage the conversation, because otherwise you'll insert your own bias about how to think about the problem. Anyway, to approach this problem I would probably try and simplify this into a game where we make decisions at discrete time steps, i.e. every hour, on whether we wish to continue or pull the lever. I didn't work it out but I think it results in pulling the lever as the choice to go with. | ||
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nttea
Sweden4353 Posts
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Ecrilon
501 Posts
Your first case essentially asks when you feel that the suffering is worse than death. That is entirely dependent on the suffering involved. If suffering means I am chained to a chair forced to watch people on the internet debate about what really isn't philosophy at all, I'd never pull the lever. It doesn't seem so bad as long as I get food and such. If suffering means I am repeatedly stabbed and healed, I feel that I'd pull that lever after the first stab. Being stabbed is really painful-would rather die and help some stranger. There's no metaphysics involved. There isn't even philosophy really, unless you count the questions, "hey, what's your philosophy on helping complete strangers at the cost of your life?" and "what do you think is worse than death?" | ||
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SubtleArt
2710 Posts
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Severedevil
United States4830 Posts
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RhaegarBeast
Bulgaria113 Posts
The question remains profound! User was warned for this post | ||
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RhaegarBeast
Bulgaria113 Posts
On July 19 2010 09:48 Severedevil wrote: It cannot be moral or immoral to pull the lever or not pull the lever, since you're not the one in control of the situation (your jailer is). Do whatever you feel like, no regrets. I really like this insight! The premise might be a little shaky though, as you finally make your own choice and live with it. | ||
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Mascherano
Argentina1726 Posts
Anyway, just pull the lever man. | ||
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Zurles
United Kingdom1659 Posts
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SleepSheep
Canada344 Posts
If the mage is telling the truth and you don't pull the lever, two things can happen: Either you wait until the other prisoner pulls the lever and kills you, or neither of you pull it and you both suffer. So no one ever pulling the lever would never be ideal, so this is something that should be avoided. If the lever IS pulled than both people's pain ends, albeit one of you has to lose their life. The alternative is both of you live in pain for the rest of your lives. So if you think that's all you need to consider, than it's better if someone pulls the lever and you only need to ask yourself why it shouldn't be you. On the other hand pulling the lever might violate some important principles. But I think that only depends on what the mage actually is. If he's just a powerful person, then it might be a different case. But assume he's not human, or he represents something else. Say you're stranded on an island with a stranger and you've both been bitten by a poisonous snake, and there's only enough antidote to save one of you. Moreover, you radioed in for help but it won't be arriving in time to save you both. Also there's not enough time to get to know him/her, plus you both speak a different language. The syringe is in front of both of you and you're both exhausted so either one of you has the option to take it or not without a fight. This analogy isn't perfect, but I think the biggest difference between this and the OP is that in this you can actually look in the eyes of the other person and have to make the choice of taking the antidote or not while he/she watches you. Imagining is this way humanizes the person who making the choice affects. He/she is a "stranger", but they don't represent one particular person, again, in line with the OP. By not being able to see them or get to know them you need to assume they are the "every person". Which is a person who you've made no prejudices or judgments about and so you might consider the stranger as a representation of your standard take on the average person. How do you treat people in general in relation to yourself? Do you assume you're better than someone else for some reason? In one sense it's a question that changes depending who you are, and where you are in life. If you're like 90 and about to die, then in that case you might be more inclined to not pull the lever. It's more likely that the other person has a lot more to live for. In which case you should just wait until they pull the lever. Alternatively, if you're a child, then you'd want to save your life, and it wouldn't necessarily be expected of you to deliberate it, since you're a child, and it's a tough situation. You could also ask what the other person wants. If you haven't died yet then maybe they want you to pull the lever instead, who knows. So I think if you do have a reason for letting the other person pull the lever or take the syringe, then you should wait a bit and give them the opportunity to save their life. If enough time has passed and they still haven't done it, then in that case I think it would be fine for you to take the pull the lever yourself since it would be senseless if you both died. | ||
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Mykill
Canada3402 Posts
 this is like almost every prisoner's dilemma | ||
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RhaegarBeast
Bulgaria113 Posts
Perhaps this is the sole reason that I made that topic. I was feeling lonely I think whether you pull the lever or let the other one pull it or you do it at the same time or never is not that important. I believe the quality of this puzzle lies in the motivation, which defines us as a person, and a person is more than just a prisoner, so when the prisoner dies, one remains in existence as the choice that he made and the other one is free of being a prisoner, but still has to live with the choice that he has made. So what matters is the basic desire, made of a tiny fraction of freedom, found miraculously in the perfect prison, as it will transcend the very same prison. | ||
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slOwdance
United States26 Posts
a similar formulation of this is in The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas except instead of removing an absurd negative consequence for "pulling the lever" it's a positive reward for pulling it, which I think aligns better with the reality of ego-driven utilitarianism in the world. | ||
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Freeheals
United States488 Posts
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