EPTNews: Israel Attacks Gazan Aid Flotilla - Page 18
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beetlejuice
Turkey68 Posts
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On June 01 2010 06:32 Half wrote: I'm just going to point out that this shit happens on a daily fucking basis on the US mexico border. Nobody calls the US "Nazi Germany". Nobody intelligent. If your attempting to illegally entering a country, wtf do you expect? Completely incomparable. Aid relief to an enclosed occupation with a huge humanitarian crisis vs. drug wars. | ||
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hypercube
Hungary2735 Posts
On June 01 2010 06:29 Nightmarjoo wrote:+ Show Spoiler + Hindsight is ever perfect. I think what we're looking at is similar to that thing posted on tl a few weeks ago about the swat team breaking into a house for drug charges, and then killing the corgi (dog). The swat team guys were just following their orders and obeying standard protocol for the situation; problem is that standard protocol was not appropriate for the situation in hindsight, but presumably was deemed necessary for lack of adequete intelligence (information). Politics: Israel tells the boat they will force it out if it tries to enter the blocade, and tells them to instead drop the supplies off elsewhere so they can be searched before being sent to Gaza. The boat ignores this, soldiers are sent in. Presumably some guy pulled a knife, or for whatever reason "shit hit the fan" and the situation on the boat escalated into what happened. In hindsight, what happened was excessive. I'm not defending the reasoning behind the blocade or trying to justify it, but if you accept the Israeli report of the situation, the talks between the blocade and the boat, the soldiers' initial hand-fighting which escalated, etc, it really seems like the boat is the bad guy here who ignored Israel's warning. They refused to cooperate with Israel to get the supplies there, they simply rushed ahead. If their goal was just to get their asses kicked to show how brutal Israel has become and publicise the blocade and how unjustifiable it is, then great they got their wish, should be no complaints from them. It's like kicking a hybernating bear to publicise how vicious bears are. I think both sides acted like idiots. Don't see how Israel should get a pass just because the other side was unreasonable. I mean if a guy resists arrest and the cops end up beating him to death it's still police brutality even though he should have known better. | ||
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Half
United States2554 Posts
On June 01 2010 06:34 Jibba wrote: Completely incomparable. Aid relief to an enclosed occupation with a huge humanitarian crisis vs. drug wars. Are you kidding? The issue here is to prevent the shipment of weapons and munitions. Just like how the issue in the US mexico boarder is to prevent drugs/illegal immigrants. If I announce I'm going to illegally cross the border to protest, and resist capture through violence, wtf do you think is going to happen to me? | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On June 01 2010 06:30 hypercube wrote: This is weird, weren't Turkey and Israel close allies? Especially on military level, less on politics of course. The tension has been building up for a year or so. They were very close partners, and still remain huge trading partners. Unfortunately, politically, the standoff is good for Turkey. While not directly related, I think Xeris's thesis was on the major power balance between Turkey, Israel and Iran. | ||
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ilbh
Brazil1606 Posts
On June 01 2010 06:09 beetlejuice wrote: obviously you know better than me of my country, ok. No need to bother myself explaining to you, all I can say is I read and know a lot about my country. but ok you know better. I surrender.And I am gonna cry that you chose my post as the most fail T_T. I don't know how I can recover from this. bleh ok, ill teach something about your country. your country is only hosting USA nuclear bombs. they are protected by USA military force camps and the code to use those bombs are helded by the USA. also, you dont have the technology to make nuclear bombs in your country. more about your country inside spoiler: + Show Spoiler + Examples of atrocities by Turks The history of Turks from Ottoman Empire to the Turkish State is a continuous attempt to eliminate any ethnic and religious group that come in contact with them. 1821, April 22 - Execution of the Patriarch of Constantinople, Gregorios and loosing of Turkish mobs on the Greek inhabitants of the cities and towns of the Turkish mainland, as a reprisal for the Greek upraise in Peloponisos. 1822 - The Sultan takes new reprisals to terrify the Christians on the Island of Chios. 50,000 Greeks are murdered. 1850 – 12,000 Armenians and Nestorians are massacred by Turkish government. 1860, April 7 - The Sultan orders a massacre of the Maronite villagers in Lebanon. 1860, July 6 - Syrians are massacred under the direction of Ahmed Pasa in Damascus. 11,000 killed. 1876 - Turkish authorities suppress an uprising in Bulgaria. 15,000 people are massacred in the area of Plovdiv in Bulgaria, among them are a number of Armenian members from the local colony. 58 villages and 5 monasteries are destroyed. 1877, June 28 – After the Russian retreat during the Russo-Turkish war, the Turkish army and Kurdish Guerrillas destroy Christian villages. Roughly 6,000 Armenians die. 1892, Summer – 8,000 Yezidis, near Mosul, are massacred and their villages are burned by orders of Ferik pasha for refusing to accept Mohammed. 1894, September to 1896, August - Sultan Hamit applies the policy of genocide to Armenians. 1894, August and September – 12,000 Armenians are killed in Sassun. 1895, October - The first organised genocide takes place in Constantinople and Trebizond. 1895, November and December - The Turkish authorities organize a large massacre throughout the country. 1896, June - Massacre of Armenians at the city of Van. 1896 – 300,000 Armenians are massacred in Constantinople. 1896, May 12 – 55,000 Greeks are murdered in the island of Crete, while the conflicts between Greeks and Turks in the island continue. 1909, March – 30,000 Armenians and some American missionaries are massacred in Adana, Tarsus and other towns of Cilicia by the Young-Turks. 1909 – Revolt of the Arabs in Yemen is suppressed by the Young-Turks. 1911, October 1 - Emilianos, Bishop of Grevena, is assassinated by the Turks. 1912 - The Turkish army retreat from East Thrace and loot the villages of the Didimoticho and Andrianopole districts. Villages in the Malgara district are burnt. The same happens in Kessani. Assassinations and massacres accompany the destruction and looting in this predominantly Greek region. 1913 - The re-occupation of Eastern Thrace by the Turkish army leads to atrocities against Greeks. 15,690 are massacred. 1913, February - The Greek inhabitants of Crithea are compelled to leave their village in East Thrace by the Turkish authorities. A brutal looting follows. 1914, January to December - More than 250,000 Greeks are exiled from East Thrace and the region of Smyrna. Their properties are confiscated. 1914, May 27 - The Christian population of Pergamum is ordered to leave the town within two hours by the Turkish authorities. The terrorized inhabitants take refuge in the Greek island of Mytilini. 1914, May and June - The Turkish authorities enact all kind of persecutions in the Greek region of west Asia Minor. The coast of Asia Minor is devastated. In Erithrea and Fokea Greeks are massacred. 1914, July and August - The Turkish government creates "the forced labour battalions". It is a new scheme for the extermination of the Greek-Ottoman citizens drafted in the Turkish army. By this method 400,000 Greeks are exterminated through hunger, hardship, maltreatment and deprivation. 1914, August – 12,000 Assyrians are murdered by Djevdet Khalil Bey. The number of Assyrians of all faiths, massacred by the Turks since 1895 is up to 424,000 1914, September - Greeks of the Makri region are killed by the Turks. 1914, November - By orders of the Turkish government many villages of Eastern Thrace are forcibly evacuated (Neochorio, Galatas, Callipoli etc.). Thousands flee from their ancestral homes to Greece. 1914, November and December - By order of the Turkish government, the region of Visii and part of the Saranda Eklisiae is evacuated. 19,000 Greeks are exiled in Anatolia and their properties looted. According to the Ecumenical Patriarchate records, 119,940 Greeks were expelled from East Thrace. 1915, April - Organized arrests of a large number of Armenian intellectuals and prominent national leaders in Constantinople and the provinces. They are deported to Anatolia and are killed on the way. The Armenian soldiers of the Turkish army are disarmed and massacred by the thousands. The Armenian population is exiled to the Syrian Desert and massacred. 1915 - The Turks initiate a fierce persecution campaign against the Syrian Orthodox and Nestorian inhabitants of Hakkari, Mardin and Midyat regions. One of the first victims was Adai Ser, Archbishop of Sert. This annihilation campaign which included large scale massacres and destruction continued till the end of World War I. 1915, August 20 to 1916, May 6 - The Ottomans hang 35 Lebanese and Syrian national leaders in Al Burj square in Lebanon and Al Marja square in Syria, with the charge of "struggling for freedom". Under Ottoman rule, a total of 130,000 Lebanese and Syrians are killed. 1916 - The Turks force the inhabitants of different regions of Pontus to immigrate to Sivas. Only 550 survived out of 16,750 inhabitants of the Elevi and Tripoli regions. Of the 49,520 inhabitants of Trebizond only 20,300 remained alive. 1916 - Destruction of the region Riseou-Platanou of Pontus. 1917, Spring – 23,000 Greeks, inhabitants of Cydoniae, are deported. 1917, November - 400 Greek families are expelled from S.W. Asia Minor. Their properties are looted. 1918, April - Another 8,000 Greek families are expelled from S.W. Asia Minor. 1920 - Chrisanthos, Bishop of Trebizond, is condemned to death in Adsentia by the Court Martial of Ankara. The Bishop of Zilon dies in jail. 1920 – 30,000 Armenians are massacred in the areas of Kars and Alexandropole by Kemalists. 1920, September - Kemalist Turkey attacks Armenia. The Armenians fight against the Turkish army, but finally they succumb on the 2nd of December 1920. The Turkish victory is followed by a massacre of the Armenians and the annexation of one half of the Armenia's Independent Republic of May 28, 1918, to Turkey. 1920 to 1921 - Another 50,000 Armenians are executed by Kemalists. 1921, June 3 – 1,320 Greeks, inhabitants of Samsus, are arrested by Kemalists. The next day 701 of the detainees are killed. The victims are buried in mass graves behind the house of Bekir Pasha. The rest are exiled to the interior of Anatolia. 1922, September 9 - The Turks enter Smyrna and ignite it. Massacres of Greeks and Armenians are organized. The death count is around 150,000 persons. 1924, July 10 - The Turkish army suppresses the Kurdish revolt in Hakkari. After 79 days, 36 villages are vandalized and destroyed, and 12 others are erased. 1925, February – 30,000 Kurds are killed during a revolt against the Turkish authorities. It is estimated that the Kurds have suffered the loss of 500,000 people by massacres and displacements by the Turks over the years. 1925, March 3 - The great Kurdish revolution bursts out at Elazig under Seyh - Sait 10.000 Kurds seize Harput and attack Diyarbakir, the Capital of Kurdistan After the complete destruction of 48 villages. The revolution was suppressed at 7/10/1927 drowned in Kurdish blood. 1927, May 30 - 2,000 Kurdish fighters are killed in Amed (Diyarbakir) and Agri. For many days, the waters of the Murat river are turned red by blood. 1937, May 23 - The Turkish government forbids the edition of the newspaper of Constantinople "Son Telegraph", because it has referred to the Kurdish sufferings. 1937-1938 – The Dersim Genocide, Approximately 40.000-70.000 of Kurdish Alawi (also known as Kizilbash) were killed and thousands were taken into exile. The Dersim Genocide was both continuation of the Kizilbash extermination of the Ottoman times and also an extermination of an ethnically distinct and separate people from Turks. 1938 - Turkey annexes the Sanjak of Antiohie-Hatay. Armenian and Arab population is exiled. 1942, November 11 - The law of taxation on property of the non-Muslims of Turkey (Varlik Vergisi) is voted. It is an attempt of economic extermination of the Greek, Armenian and Jewish communities economic authorities. 1955, September 6 - The Turkish authorities organize a great pogrom against the Greeks of Constantinople. 29 churches are burnt and 46 are looted. The graves of the Ecumenical Patriarchs and Christian cemeteries are vandalized. Thousands of shops are destroyed. Hundred of women are raped. 1963 - 1967 - Turkey provokes the stability of the newborn Republic of Cyprus by using agents. 1964 - Turkey unilaterally denounces the Convention of Establishment of Commerce and Navigation of 1930 (between Venizelos and AtaTurk). The Greek citizens are forced to leave Turkey immediately. Their relatives are obliged to expedite their departure from the country. A secret law is issued denying Greek citizens all their property rights in Turkey. 1964 - The Turkish government expels 12,000 Greeks of Constantinople declaring them as spies. Their properties are confiscated. 1964 - All minority schools on the islands of Imvros and Tenedos are closed while Turkish jails are established. The properties of the Greek population are expropriated. The Greek minority flee the islands. It is noteworthy that both the Greek island Sof Imvros and Tenedos are ceded to Turkey according to the Treaty of Lausanne because they lay at the entrance to the Dardanelles. According to Article 14 of the aforementioned treaty the protection of person and property of the native non-Muslim population is guaranteed. However, the intransigent Turkish policy of uprooting and annihilation of non-Turkish ethnic groups, and the systematic efforts to Turkify the islands with mass settlings of Turks are the reasons that today, from the 12,000 Greek inhabitants only 300 elderly people remain, for whom emigration would be pointless. 1967 - Vandalism in St. Anna's church in the village of Agridia in Imvros, another example of the Turkish policy of "national purification". 1973 - 1974 - De facto questioning of Greece's sovereign rights over the Aegean continental shelf, through the granting of research licenses to the Turkish government petroleum company (TRAO) and the sending of the research vessel "CARDALI" to conduct research in the area. 1974 - De facto questioning of Greek air space of 10 n.m., for the first time since 1931. Continuous and massive violations of Greek air space (over 500 in 1995 alone). Over 80 percent of violations occur at less than 6 n.m. from the Greek coast and even over the Greek islands. De facto arbitrary rejection by Turkey of Athens F.I.R. (until 1980). 1974, July 20 - The Turkish army invades the independent and unarmed island of Cyprus, a sovereign member of the U.N. and seizes the 40% of its territory, on the pretext that is necessary for the security of Turkish-Cypriot minority, which comprises the 18% of the whole population. In this campaign called "operation peace" by Ankara, 5,000 Cypriots are killed, 1,619 are kidnapped, hundreds are tortured, raped and exiled to Turkey. 1978, December 25 - Turkish fascists massacre hundreds of Kurds in Marash. 1978, December 28 - Proclamation of Martial Law in 15 provinces of Northern Kurdistan prohibiting for years any information about the suffering of the Kurdish people. 1978, December - 110 Kurds are massacred in the Northern Kurdistan, city of Kahramanmaras. 1979, December to 1980, September - Conflicts between the PKK and the Turkish state provided a distinctively ethnic source of violence. Few thousands Kurds were killed (mostly civilians) in different incidents. 1980, July - An outbreak of violence erupts in Corum, central Anatolia, causing 30 deaths and a mass exodus of terrified Alevis from the region. 1983 - A law banned the use, either in speech or in uniting, of any language not recognized as the official language of another country (in effect, Kurdish). 1984 - Turkey shuts off the supply of water from the Alkuwik river which originates from Turkey and reaches the south of Allepo, Syria, leading to the desertification of the area after its plains dried out. 1988, February - A pogrom night is organized to Armenian population in Baku and Sumgait regions with a replica organization of the terror night of Constantinople in 1955. 1989 - Passage of arbitrary Turkish law establishing Turkish "Search and Rescue" rights over half of the Aegean, in direct violation of ICAO rules. 1991, August to December - The Turkish Air Force and Army attacks the PKK groups in Southern Kurdistan with continuous bombing of Kurdish villages. More than 100 Kurds, including women and children, perished and 150 were injured. 1992 - Ankara builds the "Ataturk" dam on the river Euphrates and severely decreases its flow to Iraq and Syria, thus threatening the agriculture and economic survival of both nations. 1992, January to 1993, October - Turkish bombing of Kurdish villages. 4,800 are injured among which 2,000 eventually perish. 1994, May to August - Renewed Turkish raids on Kurds claim the lives of 400 Kurdish villagers and injure more than 200. 1995 - A pogrom night is organized by the Turkish government at Gari Osman Pascha district in Istanbul against the Alewi, a religious population. 1995, March 20 – 35,000 Turkish soldiers enter Southern Kurdistan under the pretext of fighting the PKK groups that, according to Ankara, had taken refuge there. Through indiscriminate bombing, torture and forced marches on PKK minefields, 200 Kurds are killed, most of whom were non-combatants. More than 50,000 Turkish troops moved into Southern Kurdistan. Along four routes, a 335 kilometres long border was breached and eyewitnesses noted that advanced Turkish teams were sent some 40 kilometres inside South Kurdistan. Civilian Kurds have been killed and refugee camps have been bombarded from the air. 1996, January 31 - The Turkish army lands some of its men on the smaller of the Imia islets which constitutes an integral part of Greek territory according to international treaties and agreements dating back to 1923. It is the first time that Turkey openly lays claims over actual Greek territory. 1996, May 6 - After a renewed, intensive six-week military campaign, Turkey withdraws its last soldiers from southern Kurdistan. The final number of the Kurdish casualties is more than 400. The injured are even more. 1996, August - During a week of peaceful demonstrations on the borders of occupied Nicosia, the Turkish troops opened fire on the demonstrators killing two people and injuring forty. 1997, February - Ankara responds to the Cypriot government's plans to purchase air-defence systems by threatening to invade and occupy the free areas. A threat often adopted since 1974. 1999 - The death toll of Kurds killed in Turkish military operations rises to over 40,000 and according to the figures published by Turkeys own parliament, 6,000 Kurdish villages were systematically evacuated of all inhabitants and 3,000,000 Kurds have been displaced source: http://www.kurdmedia.com/article.aspx?id=13491 | ||
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InDaHouse
Sweden956 Posts
On May 31 2010 22:29 Kazius wrote: As an Israeli that does NOT feel that this was handled as well as it could be, as a person who has been to Nablus, Ramallah, Jericho, Gaza, and other places in person, who actually knows Palestinians and Israelis, I felt obligated to give a localized perspective. I am a human rights activist, non-religious (agnostic), and I am most definitely pro-peace (moderate/pragmatic left-wing), but I have had friends killed in this conflict. Now that all my biases are clear, here are replies, additions, explanations and addendums to various comments which I found incomplete, wrong, or biased. I have went through the entire thread, and in my replies here are also replies to many other opinions voiced here. Israel had exhausted all non-violent means, including offering a way for aid to be transport into Gaza IF IT WAS SEARCHED FOR WEAPONS. The whole point of the floatilla was breaking the blockade in order for things OTHER than relief to enter. There are no problems getting food, water, fuel, medical supplies, etc. into Gaza. You could argue that this was an obvious relief effort - unfortunately, the Hammas has previously used relief via the sea as a platform for smuggling things such as anti-tank missiles, high explosives, and heavy machine guns. With this background, the whole point of the floatilla was THAT news report, and THESE reactions: + Show Spoiler + On May 31 2010 15:11 evanthebouncy! wrote: never liked isreal... that country would be nothing if America doesn't back it up. On May 31 2010 15:17 T.O.P. wrote: But Israel is on the Good side and North Korea is part of the axis of evil. On May 31 2010 15:22 Two_DoWn wrote: God dammit. US just needs to realize that Israel is a failed experiment, and that actually dealing with and supporting arab countries might be the answer. At least Israel is the Brits fault in the first place. This is no secret plot. This is a direct attempt to break the blockade. There have been attempts at smuggling weapons via the sea earlier, but it would take a total retard to try and smuggle them on the mentioned floatilla. The whole point of it is to force Israel to not search for weapons on ships entering Gaza, and unfortunately, due to the history between Hammas and Israel, that is an unacceptable security risk; they are already firing missiles into Israel. The means to this end is that Israel can't afford not to search the floatilla, and therefor, it is a massive publicity stunt. They did it knowing that confrontation was inevitable, that because of some douchebag violence will ensue, and then the headlines will be "EVIL ISRAEL ATTACKS DEFENSELESS SUPPORT FOR POOR CHILDREN, think about the children!". And despite what you think, the Israeli army has very little in the way of PR. It's the politicians who do that work, just like in every other country. Counting on international media is terrible, what is considered by many WW3 happened in Africa (millions of dead, many countries involved, with the death toll increasing by hundreds of thousands annually due to disease and starvation caused by that war) was largely unreported because it wasn't news. That aside, if every time a few people died and 30 were injured was reported, then EVERY SERIOUS BUS ACCIDENT WORLDWIDE WOULD BE ON CNN. You'd see nothing but that, 24/7. Comparing Gaza to the concentration camps is wrong on so many levels, as I have had grandparents that survived concentration camps, and have personally been in Gaza, and I can tell you that this comparison is invalid on so many levels that it more shows that you are willing to compare Nazis and Israelis using ignorance as an excuse than anything else. No it won't. Actually, my bet is that it would be reported in one line on CNN and MSNBC, and that's it. So now it's the Jews, not the Israelis? Well, nice to see people like you crawling out the woodwork. Gideon Levi (and most of the Ha'aretz editorial staff) are tend to get a lot of publicity by trolling the Israeli public. I'm a reader of that paper (they report news very well, and have some journalistic integrty). Only Amira Hess is more of a troll than this guy is. There is a reason why despite being the best in reporting international, political and economical news they are much smaller than the two big papers in Israel. And the proper response to trolls is to not repost or dignify their crap. I used to be in the same opinion of yours, and then while (during my military service) we did a search in the road entering a small town, we found rifles hidden in an ambulance. Unfortunately, if Israel makes any exceptions for searches, those will be exploited, and therefor Israel is forced to resort to things like this. It's an ugly situation, and of course it makes Israel look bad. But that is the entire point, and I totally agree with you that Israel is fueling the extremist groups by it's actions. I find it brutal cynicism by the Hammas abusing this - they have no intention of allowing Israel to ease up on these actions because it would not serve them well. The average Palestinian, just as the average Israeli, wants peace. Everyone that has been involved in the conflict directly (and isn't nuts) just wants it to be over. But peace talks have failed before because they were rushed and went ahead too far too fast (that one is on Clinton) or were thwarted by politicians caring more about their power and staying in office than solving this messed up situation (Olmert, Hammas, Bush). Ah yes, the "JEWS DID 9/11" argument. Actually, the reason the aid is in place is to force Israel to not make arms deals with China, Russia and other international powers (massive deals were canceled because of requests by the US), force Israel to shut down certain military projects ( a good example is the IAI Lavi), to subsidize US arms manufacturers and business (Israel is forced to not spend it on local military products but only on US ones) and in order to get a strong political/military foothold in the middle-east. Unfortunately, the US uses Israel in the same way Iran use Lebanon - it is an indirect conflict of two great powers funding clashes on a global scale. The anti-Israeli sentiment in Iran is an extension of the anti-US sentiment (if you want corroboration, look at information about the Islamic revolution there). The implications of pulling that aid are huge. Israel doesn't want to cripple anyone. Israel is sick and tired of it's people getting killed. You have no idea how much the situation here is complicated. You choose one side without knowing the facts, and that's very easy from far away. Because once you zoom out enough, it's as simple as "big country vs. small country". + Show Spoiler [offensive retort] + And for saying this has anything to do with the Jewish religion: FUCK YOU, you have some serious soul searching to do if you even have one of those to search Unfortunately, you are at least partially correct. Most people want peace, but it just feels so far out of reach nowadays. Each generation is not more extreme than the last, just more pessimistic. Most people just accept that the situation is shit, and will be for a long, LONG time. Notice that Israel is the only country in the world which is delegitimized in such a way. There is no other country that people talk about and say "it should never have been founded". Israel is a fact, and it's here. It was created as a response to about 1500 years of segregation and hate (in everything from the church to Shakespeare's The Merchant of Venice - which is not any more racist than any other view of the Jews at the time), culminating in a medium case of attempted genocide. This is the only place the Jewish people had agreed on for such a state and had been settling it for the better part of a fifty years at the time (prior to which there was practically no people living there, neither Jewish nor otherwise). The conflict will end. It has to. You have no idea how much people are sick of all the death and destruction. There is no military presence inside Gaza - rather than in accordance with the Geneva convention, Israel reserves the right to return fire towards the source of the attack, and when missiles are launched from things such as school-yards and the such, it is a cynical abuse of the situation by the people firing missiles in order to get people like you riled up. The situation is more complicated than you give it credit. Actually, the wall you are talking about lowered the amount of suicide bombings in Israel from once a month to none. It's not a permanent solution, but it has solved some of the bigger issues. And hey, if the Palestinians want to be recognized as a country, they shouldn't get outraged at someone trying to enforce a border. ------------------ Whew, finally. Now back to life. This post needs to be quoted again since many people post and outrage here before reading the thread. The insight information this TL user gives makes you just think twice before you shitting out words from your mouth. | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
On June 01 2010 06:32 Half wrote: I'm just going to point out that this shit happens on a daily fucking basis on the US mexico border. Nobody calls the US "Nazi Germany". Nobody intelligent. If your attempting to illegally entering a country, wtf do you expect? Right. Israel is at war, and it's doing presumably whatever it feels best protects both the country and the country's interests. Looking at every war in history horrible atrocities are committed (I don't even mean holocaust stuff, but I suppose that would fit in there), and while hindsight makes it obvious they were atrocities, it's not always possible to know that at the time (obviously some things are just clearly inhumane, but either way in war you're killing men, it's hard to know whether or not you should kill someone until after you do and see the rammifications). | ||
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Half
United States2554 Posts
On June 01 2010 06:41 Nightmarjoo wrote: Right. Israel is at war, and it's doing presumably whatever it feels best protects both the country and the country's interests. Looking at every war in history horrible atrocities are committed (I don't even mean holocaust stuff, but I suppose that would fit in there), and while hindsight makes it obvious they were atrocities, it's not always possible to know that at the time (obviously some things are just clearly inhumane, but either way in war you're killing men, it's hard to know whether or not you should kill someone until after you do and see the rammifications). It isn't even an "atrocity". Here is a clearly stated blockade. Someone is breaking blockade. Not only that, but said people breaking a blockade pull out a knife and begin resisting capture. What the fuck do you expect to happen? Israels only mistake is acting a bit prematurely. | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On June 01 2010 06:38 Half wrote: If you're buying the government line, then there's not much I can do to convince you otherwise.Are you kidding? The issue here is to prevent the shipment of weapons and munitions. Just like how the issue in the US mexico boarder is to prevent drugs/illegal immigrants. If I announce I'm going to illegally cross the border to protest, and resist capture through violence, wtf do you think is going to happen to me? Gaza is short on many things like food, water, electricity, school supplies, etc. Whether or not people have previously used aid to sneak weaponry (which can be done with anything) doesn't mean you deny all access. It'd be like stopping Mexican imports to combat illegal immigration. And then on top of that are the human rights violations. | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
On June 01 2010 06:36 hypercube wrote: I think both sides acted like idiots. Don't see how Israel should get a pass just because the other side was unreasonable. I mean if a guy resists arrest and the cops end up beating him to death it's still police brutality even though he should have known better. Yeah I agree, I'm just saying for those involved I can see how they found their actions at the time to be reasonable, being caught up in the situation. | ||
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Half
United States2554 Posts
On June 01 2010 06:42 Jibba wrote: If you're buying the government line, then there's not much I can do to convince you otherwise. Gaza is short on many things like food, water, electricity, school supplies, etc. Whether or not people have previously used aid to sneak weaponry (which can be done with anything) doesn't mean you deny all access. It'd be like stopping Mexican imports to combat illegal immigration. And then on top of that are the human rights violations. I'm aware of this. I highly doubt that the humanitarian organization was attempting to smuggle weapons. That being said, are you suggesting that it was a likely outcome at all that a country would simply let another country go past it's blockade? Of course not. You can disagree with the reasons behind the blockade, even I do, but the actions that transpired in this specific scenario were completely within reason. I mean if a guy resists arrest and the cops end up beating him to death it's still police brutality even though he should have known better. If a guy pulls out a knife and gets stabby, no, it isn't police brutality. | ||
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Nightmarjoo
United States3360 Posts
On June 01 2010 06:42 Half wrote: It isn't even an "atrocity". Here is a clearly stated blockade. Someone is breaking blockade. Not only that, but said people breaking a blockade pull out a knife and begin resisting capture. What the fuck do you expect to happen? Israels only mistake is acting a bit prematurely. Yeah I agree, that's how I see it too. | ||
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On June 01 2010 06:45 Half wrote: I'm aware of this. I highly doubt that the humanitarian organization was attempting to smuggle weapons. That being said, are you suggesting that it was a likely outcome at all that a country would simply let another country go past it's blockade? Of course not. You can disagree with the reasons behind the blockade, even I do, but the actions that transpired in this specific scenario were completely within reason. Read my earlier posts. The soldiers followed correct RoE, but the decision to board was questionable at best. It's not like this is the first time a country has tried to break another's blockade. When it's two major powers like this, usually the other one doesn't get boarded. | ||
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beetlejuice
Turkey68 Posts
On June 01 2010 06:39 ilbh wrote: ok, ill teach something about your country. your country is only hosting USA nuclear bombs. they are protected by USA military force camps and the code to use those bombs are helded by the USA. also, you dont have the technology to make nuclear bombs in your country. more about your country inside spoiler: + Show Spoiler + Examples of atrocities by Turks The history of Turks from Ottoman Empire to the Turkish State is a continuous attempt to eliminate any ethnic and religious group that come in contact with them. 1821, April 22 - Execution of the Patriarch of Constantinople, Gregorios and loosing of Turkish mobs on the Greek inhabitants of the cities and towns of the Turkish mainland, as a reprisal for the Greek upraise in Peloponisos. 1822 - The Sultan takes new reprisals to terrify the Christians on the Island of Chios. 50,000 Greeks are murdered. 1850 – 12,000 Armenians and Nestorians are massacred by Turkish government. 1860, April 7 - The Sultan orders a massacre of the Maronite villagers in Lebanon. 1860, July 6 - Syrians are massacred under the direction of Ahmed Pasa in Damascus. 11,000 killed. 1876 - Turkish authorities suppress an uprising in Bulgaria. 15,000 people are massacred in the area of Plovdiv in Bulgaria, among them are a number of Armenian members from the local colony. 58 villages and 5 monasteries are destroyed. 1877, June 28 – After the Russian retreat during the Russo-Turkish war, the Turkish army and Kurdish Guerrillas destroy Christian villages. Roughly 6,000 Armenians die. 1892, Summer – 8,000 Yezidis, near Mosul, are massacred and their villages are burned by orders of Ferik pasha for refusing to accept Mohammed. 1894, September to 1896, August - Sultan Hamit applies the policy of genocide to Armenians. 1894, August and September – 12,000 Armenians are killed in Sassun. 1895, October - The first organised genocide takes place in Constantinople and Trebizond. 1895, November and December - The Turkish authorities organize a large massacre throughout the country. 1896, June - Massacre of Armenians at the city of Van. 1896 – 300,000 Armenians are massacred in Constantinople. 1896, May 12 – 55,000 Greeks are murdered in the island of Crete, while the conflicts between Greeks and Turks in the island continue. 1909, March – 30,000 Armenians and some American missionaries are massacred in Adana, Tarsus and other towns of Cilicia by the Young-Turks. 1909 – Revolt of the Arabs in Yemen is suppressed by the Young-Turks. 1911, October 1 - Emilianos, Bishop of Grevena, is assassinated by the Turks. 1912 - The Turkish army retreat from East Thrace and loot the villages of the Didimoticho and Andrianopole districts. Villages in the Malgara district are burnt. The same happens in Kessani. Assassinations and massacres accompany the destruction and looting in this predominantly Greek region. 1913 - The re-occupation of Eastern Thrace by the Turkish army leads to atrocities against Greeks. 15,690 are massacred. 1913, February - The Greek inhabitants of Crithea are compelled to leave their village in East Thrace by the Turkish authorities. A brutal looting follows. 1914, January to December - More than 250,000 Greeks are exiled from East Thrace and the region of Smyrna. Their properties are confiscated. 1914, May 27 - The Christian population of Pergamum is ordered to leave the town within two hours by the Turkish authorities. The terrorized inhabitants take refuge in the Greek island of Mytilini. 1914, May and June - The Turkish authorities enact all kind of persecutions in the Greek region of west Asia Minor. The coast of Asia Minor is devastated. In Erithrea and Fokea Greeks are massacred. 1914, July and August - The Turkish government creates "the forced labour battalions". It is a new scheme for the extermination of the Greek-Ottoman citizens drafted in the Turkish army. By this method 400,000 Greeks are exterminated through hunger, hardship, maltreatment and deprivation. 1914, August – 12,000 Assyrians are murdered by Djevdet Khalil Bey. The number of Assyrians of all faiths, massacred by the Turks since 1895 is up to 424,000 1914, September - Greeks of the Makri region are killed by the Turks. 1914, November - By orders of the Turkish government many villages of Eastern Thrace are forcibly evacuated (Neochorio, Galatas, Callipoli etc.). Thousands flee from their ancestral homes to Greece. 1914, November and December - By order of the Turkish government, the region of Visii and part of the Saranda Eklisiae is evacuated. 19,000 Greeks are exiled in Anatolia and their properties looted. According to the Ecumenical Patriarchate records, 119,940 Greeks were expelled from East Thrace. 1915, April - Organized arrests of a large number of Armenian intellectuals and prominent national leaders in Constantinople and the provinces. They are deported to Anatolia and are killed on the way. The Armenian soldiers of the Turkish army are disarmed and massacred by the thousands. The Armenian population is exiled to the Syrian Desert and massacred. 1915 - The Turks initiate a fierce persecution campaign against the Syrian Orthodox and Nestorian inhabitants of Hakkari, Mardin and Midyat regions. One of the first victims was Adai Ser, Archbishop of Sert. This annihilation campaign which included large scale massacres and destruction continued till the end of World War I. 1915, August 20 to 1916, May 6 - The Ottomans hang 35 Lebanese and Syrian national leaders in Al Burj square in Lebanon and Al Marja square in Syria, with the charge of "struggling for freedom". Under Ottoman rule, a total of 130,000 Lebanese and Syrians are killed. 1916 - The Turks force the inhabitants of different regions of Pontus to immigrate to Sivas. Only 550 survived out of 16,750 inhabitants of the Elevi and Tripoli regions. Of the 49,520 inhabitants of Trebizond only 20,300 remained alive. 1916 - Destruction of the region Riseou-Platanou of Pontus. 1917, Spring – 23,000 Greeks, inhabitants of Cydoniae, are deported. 1917, November - 400 Greek families are expelled from S.W. Asia Minor. Their properties are looted. 1918, April - Another 8,000 Greek families are expelled from S.W. Asia Minor. 1920 - Chrisanthos, Bishop of Trebizond, is condemned to death in Adsentia by the Court Martial of Ankara. The Bishop of Zilon dies in jail. 1920 – 30,000 Armenians are massacred in the areas of Kars and Alexandropole by Kemalists. 1920, September - Kemalist Turkey attacks Armenia. The Armenians fight against the Turkish army, but finally they succumb on the 2nd of December 1920. The Turkish victory is followed by a massacre of the Armenians and the annexation of one half of the Armenia's Independent Republic of May 28, 1918, to Turkey. 1920 to 1921 - Another 50,000 Armenians are executed by Kemalists. 1921, June 3 – 1,320 Greeks, inhabitants of Samsus, are arrested by Kemalists. The next day 701 of the detainees are killed. The victims are buried in mass graves behind the house of Bekir Pasha. The rest are exiled to the interior of Anatolia. 1922, September 9 - The Turks enter Smyrna and ignite it. Massacres of Greeks and Armenians are organized. The death count is around 150,000 persons. 1924, July 10 - The Turkish army suppresses the Kurdish revolt in Hakkari. After 79 days, 36 villages are vandalized and destroyed, and 12 others are erased. 1925, February – 30,000 Kurds are killed during a revolt against the Turkish authorities. It is estimated that the Kurds have suffered the loss of 500,000 people by massacres and displacements by the Turks over the years. 1925, March 3 - The great Kurdish revolution bursts out at Elazig under Seyh - Sait 10.000 Kurds seize Harput and attack Diyarbakir, the Capital of Kurdistan After the complete destruction of 48 villages. The revolution was suppressed at 7/10/1927 drowned in Kurdish blood. 1927, May 30 - 2,000 Kurdish fighters are killed in Amed (Diyarbakir) and Agri. For many days, the waters of the Murat river are turned red by blood. 1937, May 23 - The Turkish government forbids the edition of the newspaper of Constantinople "Son Telegraph", because it has referred to the Kurdish sufferings. 1937-1938 – The Dersim Genocide, Approximately 40.000-70.000 of Kurdish Alawi (also known as Kizilbash) were killed and thousands were taken into exile. The Dersim Genocide was both continuation of the Kizilbash extermination of the Ottoman times and also an extermination of an ethnically distinct and separate people from Turks. 1938 - Turkey annexes the Sanjak of Antiohie-Hatay. Armenian and Arab population is exiled. 1942, November 11 - The law of taxation on property of the non-Muslims of Turkey (Varlik Vergisi) is voted. It is an attempt of economic extermination of the Greek, Armenian and Jewish communities economic authorities. 1955, September 6 - The Turkish authorities organize a great pogrom against the Greeks of Constantinople. 29 churches are burnt and 46 are looted. The graves of the Ecumenical Patriarchs and Christian cemeteries are vandalized. Thousands of shops are destroyed. Hundred of women are raped. 1963 - 1967 - Turkey provokes the stability of the newborn Republic of Cyprus by using agents. 1964 - Turkey unilaterally denounces the Convention of Establishment of Commerce and Navigation of 1930 (between Venizelos and AtaTurk). The Greek citizens are forced to leave Turkey immediately. Their relatives are obliged to expedite their departure from the country. A secret law is issued denying Greek citizens all their property rights in Turkey. 1964 - The Turkish government expels 12,000 Greeks of Constantinople declaring them as spies. Their properties are confiscated. 1964 - All minority schools on the islands of Imvros and Tenedos are closed while Turkish jails are established. The properties of the Greek population are expropriated. The Greek minority flee the islands. It is noteworthy that both the Greek island Sof Imvros and Tenedos are ceded to Turkey according to the Treaty of Lausanne because they lay at the entrance to the Dardanelles. According to Article 14 of the aforementioned treaty the protection of person and property of the native non-Muslim population is guaranteed. However, the intransigent Turkish policy of uprooting and annihilation of non-Turkish ethnic groups, and the systematic efforts to Turkify the islands with mass settlings of Turks are the reasons that today, from the 12,000 Greek inhabitants only 300 elderly people remain, for whom emigration would be pointless. 1967 - Vandalism in St. Anna's church in the village of Agridia in Imvros, another example of the Turkish policy of "national purification". 1973 - 1974 - De facto questioning of Greece's sovereign rights over the Aegean continental shelf, through the granting of research licenses to the Turkish government petroleum company (TRAO) and the sending of the research vessel "CARDALI" to conduct research in the area. 1974 - De facto questioning of Greek air space of 10 n.m., for the first time since 1931. Continuous and massive violations of Greek air space (over 500 in 1995 alone). Over 80 percent of violations occur at less than 6 n.m. from the Greek coast and even over the Greek islands. De facto arbitrary rejection by Turkey of Athens F.I.R. (until 1980). 1974, July 20 - The Turkish army invades the independent and unarmed island of Cyprus, a sovereign member of the U.N. and seizes the 40% of its territory, on the pretext that is necessary for the security of Turkish-Cypriot minority, which comprises the 18% of the whole population. In this campaign called "operation peace" by Ankara, 5,000 Cypriots are killed, 1,619 are kidnapped, hundreds are tortured, raped and exiled to Turkey. 1978, December 25 - Turkish fascists massacre hundreds of Kurds in Marash. 1978, December 28 - Proclamation of Martial Law in 15 provinces of Northern Kurdistan prohibiting for years any information about the suffering of the Kurdish people. 1978, December - 110 Kurds are massacred in the Northern Kurdistan, city of Kahramanmaras. 1979, December to 1980, September - Conflicts between the PKK and the Turkish state provided a distinctively ethnic source of violence. Few thousands Kurds were killed (mostly civilians) in different incidents. 1980, July - An outbreak of violence erupts in Corum, central Anatolia, causing 30 deaths and a mass exodus of terrified Alevis from the region. 1983 - A law banned the use, either in speech or in uniting, of any language not recognized as the official language of another country (in effect, Kurdish). 1984 - Turkey shuts off the supply of water from the Alkuwik river which originates from Turkey and reaches the south of Allepo, Syria, leading to the desertification of the area after its plains dried out. 1988, February - A pogrom night is organized to Armenian population in Baku and Sumgait regions with a replica organization of the terror night of Constantinople in 1955. 1989 - Passage of arbitrary Turkish law establishing Turkish "Search and Rescue" rights over half of the Aegean, in direct violation of ICAO rules. 1991, August to December - The Turkish Air Force and Army attacks the PKK groups in Southern Kurdistan with continuous bombing of Kurdish villages. More than 100 Kurds, including women and children, perished and 150 were injured. 1992 - Ankara builds the "Ataturk" dam on the river Euphrates and severely decreases its flow to Iraq and Syria, thus threatening the agriculture and economic survival of both nations. 1992, January to 1993, October - Turkish bombing of Kurdish villages. 4,800 are injured among which 2,000 eventually perish. 1994, May to August - Renewed Turkish raids on Kurds claim the lives of 400 Kurdish villagers and injure more than 200. 1995 - A pogrom night is organized by the Turkish government at Gari Osman Pascha district in Istanbul against the Alewi, a religious population. 1995, March 20 – 35,000 Turkish soldiers enter Southern Kurdistan under the pretext of fighting the PKK groups that, according to Ankara, had taken refuge there. Through indiscriminate bombing, torture and forced marches on PKK minefields, 200 Kurds are killed, most of whom were non-combatants. More than 50,000 Turkish troops moved into Southern Kurdistan. Along four routes, a 335 kilometres long border was breached and eyewitnesses noted that advanced Turkish teams were sent some 40 kilometres inside South Kurdistan. Civilian Kurds have been killed and refugee camps have been bombarded from the air. 1996, January 31 - The Turkish army lands some of its men on the smaller of the Imia islets which constitutes an integral part of Greek territory according to international treaties and agreements dating back to 1923. It is the first time that Turkey openly lays claims over actual Greek territory. 1996, May 6 - After a renewed, intensive six-week military campaign, Turkey withdraws its last soldiers from southern Kurdistan. The final number of the Kurdish casualties is more than 400. The injured are even more. 1996, August - During a week of peaceful demonstrations on the borders of occupied Nicosia, the Turkish troops opened fire on the demonstrators killing two people and injuring forty. 1997, February - Ankara responds to the Cypriot government's plans to purchase air-defence systems by threatening to invade and occupy the free areas. A threat often adopted since 1974. 1999 - The death toll of Kurds killed in Turkish military operations rises to over 40,000 and according to the figures published by Turkeys own parliament, 6,000 Kurdish villages were systematically evacuated of all inhabitants and 3,000,000 Kurds have been displaced source: http://www.kurdmedia.com/article.aspx?id=13491 Nice copy paste bro. I first thought these came up from you not a website. Since they are not your gathered information and the information is provided from a biased web-site I don't even take it serious. I can paste many pages like this about other so called "western countries" who brought freedom to many countries...but I don't copy paste them I am not cheap. when you read a book or pages of 50 about every single matter that is listed. Come to me and we can have a chat. Until then don't copy paste things that you never heard of. for the nukes I explained after that I said it because someone said nuking capital of Turkey. I wanted say that that won't happen because Turkey have retaliative Nato nukes. Forget about everything I say, Turkey doesn't need nukes, her army is big enough to shut your mouth. | ||
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besiger
Croatia2452 Posts
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Korbin Dallas
44 Posts
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mass_
36 Posts
Don't get me wrong, I've a lot of jewish friends that I love. This is not about jews.. This is about a country and it's goverment. Keep this up and you might give birth to another Hitler who doesn't know the meaning of "Shalom*"... *Means both hello and goodbye in addition to "peace"... | ||
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Half
United States2554 Posts
On June 01 2010 06:56 beetlejuice wrote: when you read a book or pages of 50 about every single matter that is listed. Come to me and we can have a chat. Have you read a single book about the atrocities committed by turkey? No, you haven't, so why the hell are you demanding that should? Let alone read a book about every single atrocity committed by Turkey. And if you have read a book concerning the atrocity's commited by Turkey, well, there you go. | ||
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Doix
United Kingdom32 Posts
On June 01 2010 06:59 besiger wrote: I just dont get the reasoning behind doing this in international waters, cant wrap my head around that part. Yes, that was their biggest fuck up... It was pretty obvious they were trying to provoke Israel and not just supply aid (otherwise they would've agreed to letting the cargo be searched). | ||
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