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semantics
10040 Posts
On June 01 2010 07:47 Mothxal wrote: And isn't there any way the highly trained and heavily armed Israeli elite forces can handle that situation without so many people ending up dead? let's see a few commandos per a boat vs hundreds of people, it's not so easy beating back a hostile crowd it's not like they could line up and wear riot gear =p | ||
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semantics
10040 Posts
On June 01 2010 07:49 mass_ wrote: Thank you for clarifying on what I meant by "Israelis". English is not my native language, so things you mean can sometimes come out differently. Tell me what you would do if someone breaks into your house in the middle of the night with a machine gun in his hand and you are not trained or informed on crisis management? You'd freak out and try to take an action without putting too much afford to thinking. For the record; Soldiers boarding on that ship on the international waters is illegal and there is no such thing as "near enough". You are either on their waters or not. Period. That's only relevant if you parked your house outside of the US/Mexico boarder filled with illegal immigrants while telling the US imma cross your boarder, now let me though. Come on you clearly going to have something done to you when you're being that antagonistic and you didn't tell your people what to do. If you're trying to go clearly just for aid and peaceful reasons, you should sit down or lay down in a non threating position, not all bundle up where the commandos are landing and throw shit at them and tackle them when they get in arms length. | ||
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Half
United States2554 Posts
On June 01 2010 07:47 condoriano wrote: Didn't want to reply in that Israel thread, just wanted to let you know - you are a tard educated worse than a 9th grader. Please stop posting it makes my eyes bleed. Oh nice bro. You're so scared that you have to PM me the insult, completely unsupported. You have something to say? Say it then. You afraid they're going to ban you? How fucking pathetic. The funny part is he didn't even provide anything to back up his insults...lol. | ||
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mass_
36 Posts
On June 01 2010 07:47 Mothxal wrote: And isn't there any way the highly trained and heavily armed Israeli elite forces can handle that situation without so many people ending up dead? Thank you for pointing out. The soldier that is "so called" attacked should be able to disarm the attacker with ease if he is an elite commando of the Israeli military. | ||
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Klockan3
Sweden2866 Posts
On June 01 2010 07:53 mass_ wrote: Thank you for pointing out. The soldier that is "so called" attacked should be able to disarm the attacker with ease if he is an elite commando of the Israeli military. How would they be able to handle this?? You see these "peaceful" crew welcoming the soldiers warmly here... | ||
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Han Solo
United Kingdom199 Posts
On June 01 2010 07:16 Mothxal wrote: I don't understand all the contempt for the aid organization who "provoked the attack by breaking a blockade". First of all, as many have said Israel has no right entering ships in international waters, so technically they didn't provoke anything. Helsinki Principles on the Law of Maritime Neutrality 5.1.2(3) Merchant ships flying the flag of a neutral State may be attacked if they are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search, capture or diversion. Basically the boarding was legal. | ||
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pvzvt
Israel2097 Posts
the people that think israel is a cruel opressor will remain in that position and the people who think other wise will remain that way mean while 16 are dead .... for what ? stupid shit like i said i hate politics | ||
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CursOr
United States6335 Posts
Only if you let Palestine legitimately search and seize the Tons of weapons shipped into it by the US. Israel invaded Palestine. A lot of the Israel supporting here shocks me. Lets not forget the original crime was invasion, and the ensuing conflict is horribly skewed by US backing and an illegal blockade of EVERYTHING into the Palestinian people. I would never say Israel doesn't have a right to exist, but I think Palestine does- and those people suffer under an awful military occupation. One that is sustained and legitimized only by a bunch of self serving pro-Israel lobby in the US that continues to be able to effect Media and Policy formation in the US directly. The reality of the situation is one country brutally occupying another and forcefully hampering any resistance- going as far as to limit food, water and medicine. The US media does not depict this situation fairly. | ||
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zrules
United States88 Posts
On May 31 2010 22:29 Kazius wrote: As an Israeli that does NOT feel that this was handled as well as it could be, as a person who has been to Nablus, Ramallah, Jericho, Gaza, and other places in person, who actually knows Palestinians and Israelis, I felt obligated to give a localized perspective. I am a human rights activist, non-religious (agnostic), and I am most definitely pro-peace (moderate/pragmatic left-wing), but I have had friends killed in this conflict. Now that all my biases are clear, here are replies, additions, explanations and addendums to various comments which I found incomplete, wrong, or biased. I have went through the entire thread, and in my replies here are also replies to many other opinions voiced here. Thank you for your time with the knowledge that you have. Israel had exhausted all non-violent means, including offering a way for aid to be transport into Gaza IF IT WAS SEARCHED FOR WEAPONS. The whole point of the floatilla was breaking the blockade in order for things OTHER than relief to enter. There are no problems getting food, water, fuel, medical supplies, etc. into Gaza. You could argue that this was an obvious relief effort - unfortunately, the Hammas has previously used relief via the sea as a platform for smuggling things such as anti-tank missiles, high explosives, and heavy machine guns. From what I understand, the Israeli/Egypt border has blocked aid traffic from Egypt no matter what is in the cargo for awhile... I don't remember if it was Egypt or Israel that was the instigator so do you know? Anyways, I don't think there is "no problem" in getting in necessary supplies. From what I have read there seems to only be a bare minimum of supplies allowed in. While weapons are obviously a concern and a flotilla planning to ram through obviously causes logistical problems and can be seen as trying to get weapons in, it seems less likely considering the sponsor was Turkey, a more lenient towards Western type of country in the Middle East. Had it been Iran or Syria the threat would have been much more obvious for the international community to see (and while Turkey does have some negative looks on Israel, they seem to be pushing for aid to get through as opposed to weapons. With this background, the whole point of the floatilla was THAT news report, and THESE reactions: + Show Spoiler + On May 31 2010 15:11 evanthebouncy! wrote: never liked isreal... that country would be nothing if America doesn't back it up. On May 31 2010 15:17 T.O.P. wrote: But Israel is on the Good side and North Korea is part of the axis of evil. On May 31 2010 15:22 Two_DoWn wrote: God dammit. US just needs to realize that Israel is a failed experiment, and that actually dealing with and supporting arab countries might be the answer. At least Israel is the Brits fault in the first place. This is no secret plot. This is a direct attempt to break the blockade. There have been attempts at smuggling weapons via the sea earlier, but it would take a total retard to try and smuggle them on the mentioned floatilla. The whole point of it is to force Israel to not search for weapons on ships entering Gaza, and unfortunately, due to the history between Hammas and Israel, that is an unacceptable security risk; they are already firing missiles into Israel. The means to this end is that Israel can't afford not to search the floatilla, and therefor, it is a massive publicity stunt. They did it knowing that confrontation was inevitable, that because of some douchebag violence will ensue, and then the headlines will be "EVIL ISRAEL ATTACKS DEFENSELESS SUPPORT FOR POOR CHILDREN, think about the children!". And despite what you think, the Israeli army has very little in the way of PR. It's the politicians who do that work, just like in every other country. You bring up a good point, of trying to make it unpopular for anybody to search for weapons. However, when things such as concrete are banned that allow people to have Mosques, Schools, and and other destroyed buildings to be repaired, you really don't help your cause. While the constant argument is that these locations are feigned as peaceful with a large number of attacks originating from these locations, it eventually is a bit absurd to continue doing so when people are without these places of worship and generally necessary places of society. Probably one of the most telling signs of the fact that the world is going away from accepting attacks on places that had rocket attacks originate from them is the new U.S. "command" which says that if any civilians could be in danger, the attack must be cut off. And again while they cannot afford to not search these places, to have such things on the list is considered, well, wrong by many. While it might have been a PR stunt, the problem that seems most difficult to nail down is who is truly at fault. While I believe you will say the flotilla for the PR stunt, when the whole of the Arab world has felt that Israel is an unwanted force that was put there by Westerners to help control the Middle East, for Westerners it seems like the long time ally of the U.S. is straining they're relationship with their trading partners, by continually supporting a country that is unpopular in the Middle East, it is difficult to remain as close of allies with the U.S. as they might want/need. Also note that there is a large population of Arabs in Europe that also have a growing voice. And military having PR is an obvious fact that plagues (whether it might be good or bad) the military of any countries. Vietnam is the biggest example of how one single offensive on the holiday of Tet can radically change public outlook on a war. Counting on international media is terrible, what is considered by many WW3 happened in Africa (millions of dead, many countries involved, with the death toll increasing by hundreds of thousands annually due to disease and starvation caused by that war) was largely unreported because it wasn't news. That aside, if every time a few people died and 30 were injured was reported, then EVERY SERIOUS BUS ACCIDENT WORLDWIDE WOULD BE ON CNN. You'd see nothing but that, 24/7. Comparing Gaza to the concentration camps is wrong on so many levels, as I have had grandparents that survived concentration camps, and have personally been in Gaza, and I can tell you that this comparison is invalid on so many levels that it more shows that you are willing to compare Nazis and Israelis using ignorance as an excuse than anything else. There always is somebody reporting on events. The problem is that large media such as the U.S.'s CNN, Fox, MSNBC don't necessarily consider everything appealing to their audience. An audience has to find it appealing or the station loses business. The example that I consider most... truthful of this is "The History Channel." The History channel reports on World War 2 every other day it seems, reports on Aliens and Random Bullshit the other days, and once in a fortnight actually looks at other events. Why? Probably because very few of their viewers actually care about real history. The same can be done with News Stations. For many people, there is not a huge interest in genocide in Africa potentially (I don't see any logic behind this at all), but a news story about a U.S. embassy being threatened is big news because it relates to the little sphere that thee news agencies report to, a sphere that only concerns itself with U.S. affairs. It is a saddening, yet true part of our society. As for your mention about the 30 people on a bus accident, Nancy Grace is essentially that, but with Children cases. Purely the case that is occurring with young children. Obviously, any abused child is an obvious news story that shouldn't occur, but when she goes on about the same child's case for weeks on end, it seems a bit absurd... I'd rather know about the Bus Accident or something greater than that by Day 2 or 3, because our world isn't immobile. Again I apologize for that comparison. However, any sort of condition such as the conditions currently in Gaza is disreputable, as is anything greater than that. So now it's the Jews, not the Israelis? Well, nice to see people like you crawling out the woodwork. Antisemitism is a terrible part of modern life, as is any sort of racism/profiling. You understand that though, and I agree with you it isn't a Jewish action, but an Israeli action. It's similar to the profiling that occurs when people refer to Arabs as radical, they classify all Arabs as Radical, because they "wear head scarves and pray," or whatever. Too many people display those types of ideas/feelings. I used to be in the same opinion of yours, and then while (during my military service) we did a search in the road entering a small town, we found rifles hidden in an ambulance. Unfortunately, if Israel makes any exceptions for searches, those will be exploited, and therefor Israel is forced to resort to things like this. It's an ugly situation, and of course it makes Israel look bad. But that is the entire point, and I totally agree with you that Israel is fueling the extremist groups by it's actions. I find it brutal cynicism by the Hammas abusing this - they have no intention of allowing Israel to ease up on these actions because it would not serve them well. The average Palestinian, just as the average Israeli, wants peace. Everyone that has been involved in the conflict directly (and isn't nuts) just wants it to be over. But peace talks have failed before because they were rushed and went ahead too far too fast (that one is on Clinton) or were thwarted by politicians caring more about their power and staying in office than solving this messed up situation (Olmert, Hammas, Bush). It is a cruel cycle that needs some side to "be the bigger man" and say enough. Whether it be Israel in allowing freedom to Hammas (and thus discredit them if they act afterwards) or it be Hammas who calls for peace and demilitarizes themselves, it will not likely happen, unfortunately. Going to fast is not something to blame (though I don't think you are), but yeah, when people care about their little chair of power so much, that is a huge issue. Ah yes, the "JEWS DID 9/11" argument. Actually, the reason the aid is in place is to force Israel to not make arms deals with China, Russia and other international powers (massive deals were canceled because of requests by the US), force Israel to shut down certain military projects ( a good example is the IAI Lavi), to subsidize US arms manufacturers and business (Israel is forced to not spend it on local military products but only on US ones) and in order to get a strong political/military foothold in the middle-east. Unfortunately, the US uses Israel in the same way Iran use Lebanon - it is an indirect conflict of two great powers funding clashes on a global scale. The anti-Israeli sentiment in Iran is an extension of the anti-US sentiment (if you want corroboration, look at information about the Islamic revolution there). The implications of pulling that aid are huge. Agreed... it's the remnants of the Cold War. Funding of one side or another by super powers. And there is my response. | ||
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condoriano
United States826 Posts
On June 01 2010 07:55 Han Solo wrote: Helsinki Principles on the Law of Maritime Neutrality 5.1.2(3) Merchant ships flying the flag of a neutral State may be attacked if they are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search, capture or diversion. Basically the boarding was legal. International waters. Boarding illegal, try again. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On June 01 2010 07:55 Han Solo wrote: Helsinki Principles on the Law of Maritime Neutrality 5.1.2(3) Merchant ships flying the flag of a neutral State may be attacked if they are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search, capture or diversion. Basically the boarding was legal. The blockade is illegal by UN standards however. | ||
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Hansel
Germany311 Posts
On June 01 2010 07:38 Mothxal wrote: Is there any way someone can forcefully stand up to power or stand for injustice without being rude, then? Its well adviced that you dont act rude if someone is pointing a machine gun at you. Provoking him is also no good idea. Now if you want to be heroic & truly want to prove a point without being rude i advice you to do sth like this: ![[image loading]](http://adulto.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/tiananmen.jpg) sadly no one in the Israeli/Palesinian conflict seems to have the bravery of this man, shame that Rabin got shot | ||
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toadstool
Australia421 Posts
If some military gun ship with trained soldiers with guns tell you to turn around and go somewhere or face the consequences, then fucking do it. they wanted to make an international outrage by disobeying Israel's orders, and surprise surprise they faced the consequences. If they wanted the aid to go to the Palestinian people, then unload it at the dock that was suggested by the Israelis. they tried to create a media shit storm (and they certainly did) and paid the price. is all this shit worth 19 lives?? | ||
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CursOr
United States6335 Posts
Yet F-16's and guns and bombs shipped to Israel are... what? Just fine. Compound that by the fact that the one getting all the weapons legitimately is the one who invaded the other and is occupying and settling? + Show Spoiler + Iran helps Palestine = Terrorists US helps Isreal = ? Guess who is killing civilians in FAR greater numbers. Not to mention the humanitarian Crisis. | ||
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EmeraldSparks
United States1451 Posts
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Klockan3
Sweden2866 Posts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo On June 01 2010 08:03 cursor wrote: I love how weapons and support of Palestine is Terrorist sympathy and Contra ban... Yet F-16's and guns and bombs shipped to Israel are... what? Just fine. Compound that by the fact that the one getting all the weapons legitimately is the one who invaded the other and is occupying and settling? + Show Spoiler + Iran helps Palestine = Terrorists US helps Isreal = ? Guess who is killing civilians in FAR greater numbers. Not to mention the humanitarian Crisis. The difference is that if the Arabs laid down their arms we would have peace, the palestines would get a country and everyone would be happy. If Israel laid down their arms it would be a massacre. | ||
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mass_
36 Posts
On June 01 2010 08:01 Hansel wrote: Its well adviced that you dont act rude if someone is pointing a machine gun at you. Provoking him is also no good idea. Now if you want to be heroic & truly want to prove a point without being rude i advice you to do sth like this: sadly no one in the Israeli/Palesinian conflict seems to have the bravery of this man, shame that Rabin got shot /respect to the tankman, he has more courage than many countries combined together. Tankman lives, he is eternal... | ||
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CursOr
United States6335 Posts
On June 01 2010 08:05 Klockan3 wrote: Yeah, I mean when they act like this against military personnel of a foreign country how in hell can anyone sympathize with them? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo Lets say 3 North Korean troops came, 1 at a time, onto your boat in international waters. You'd serve them tea I'm sure. They had no right. | ||
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condoriano
United States826 Posts
On June 01 2010 08:03 toadstool wrote: Simple way of looking at it is: If some military gun ship with trained soldiers with guns tell you to turn around and go somewhere or face the consequences, then fucking do it. No one has the right to tell you where to go when you are in the international waters. If I tell you to start mopping and I'm a huge 6.4 guy with big arms and beard you better jump on it or face the consequences. Too many posts in this thread were made without thinking for a second. | ||
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Han Solo
United Kingdom199 Posts
As for this specific incident though, I can't see how anyone could side with the aid people. They were given multiple warnings and when the soldiers boarded, they responded with lethal force. What do you expect. Two wrongs don't make a right. The blockade is rubbish sure, but that does not magically justify some people being allowed to attack others with lethal force. It's like saying I should stab the next cop that illegally arrests and detains me. | ||
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