On June 01 2010 06:42 Jibba wrote: If you're buying the government line, then there's not much I can do to convince you otherwise.
Gaza is short on many things like food, water, electricity, school supplies, etc. Whether or not people have previously used aid to sneak weaponry (which can be done with anything) doesn't mean you deny all access. It'd be like stopping Mexican imports to combat illegal immigration. And then on top of that are the human rights violations.
I'm aware of this. I highly doubt that the humanitarian organization was attempting to smuggle weapons. That being said, are you suggesting that it was a likely outcome at all that a country would simply let another country go past it's blockade? Of course not. You can disagree with the reasons behind the blockade, even I do, but the actions that transpired in this specific scenario were completely within reason.
Read my earlier posts. The soldiers followed correct RoE, but the decision to board was questionable at best. It's not like this is the first time a country has tried to break another's blockade. When it's two major powers like this, usually the other one doesn't get boarded.
Their were multiple requests from Israel for basic preconditions, like a simple search of the cargo. They were all refused, so the matter simply becomes an insult to Israels sovereignty, something that is already heavily disputed among extremist groups in the middle east.
On June 01 2010 07:06 mass_ wrote: israelis are rapidly transforming into whom they have suffered from the most.. To Hitler... Killing the innocent.. Some of you are even ignorant enough to support their action.
Are you fucking serious? Name one similarity or shut up with your nazi tourettes.
Their is literally more similarities in the US with Nazi Germany then Israel.
Also, your positing not only is Israel turning into Nazi Germany, but that every single israeli is becoming...hitler...
On June 01 2010 06:32 Half wrote: I'm just going to point out that this shit happens on a daily fucking basis on the US mexico border. Nobody calls the US "Nazi Germany". Nobody intelligent. If your attempting to illegally entering a country, wtf do you expect?
Completely incomparable.
Aid relief to an enclosed occupation with a huge humanitarian crisis vs. drug wars.
Are you kidding? The issue here is to prevent the shipment of weapons and munitions. Just like how the issue in the US mexico boarder is to prevent drugs/illegal immigrants. If I announce I'm going to illegally cross the border to protest, and resist capture through violence, wtf do you think is going to happen to me?
If you're buying the government line, then there's not much I can do to convince you otherwise.
Gaza is short on many things like food, water, electricity, school supplies, etc. Whether or not people have previously used aid to sneak weaponry (which can be done with anything) doesn't mean you deny all access. It'd be like stopping Mexican imports to combat illegal immigration. And then on top of that are the human rights violations.
If I remember correctly, the Israelis offered to let the ships call at one of their ports so that they could check their cargo before it enters Gaza. Which, if their genuine intention would've been to support the people in Gaza, is totally reasonable. But in their refusal to do so, they have given the IEF every legitmation they could possible ask for to board them.
when you read a book or pages of 50 about every single matter that is listed. Come to me and we can have a chat.
Have you read a single book about the atrocities committed by turkey? No, you haven't, so why the hell are you demanding that should? Let alone read a book about every single atrocity committed by Turkey.
And if you have read a book concerning the atrocity's commited by Turkey, well, there you go.
Lol, How do you know I didn't in the first place. You are so funny, you seem to know me closely, you don't even know my name. But yes I have read a lot, and I don't need to prove it to you. My focus is on international law and politics as I am a student of law. So I HAVE TO read a lot. I hope that is enough for you because I won't try to prove my knowledge about those matters again.
BUT COPY PASTE! Copy paste is the thing that I despise. Anyway...
Just like between Israel and Phalestine these matters are never one-sided and they have tons of pre-events followed to them.
You are also funny enough to compare Israeli blockade with US mexico border.
around 6 hours ago, posts were more reasonable and opposite opinions could discuss matter. In this hour this thread became sth else.
I mean if a guy resists arrest and the cops end up beating him to death it's still police brutality even though he should have known better.
If a guy pulls out a knife and gets stabby, no, it isn't police brutality.
It's hard to say if they overreacted during the attack itself but the way they handled the problem was an overreaction. Problem is that this seems to be part of a pattern of behaviour from the Israeli army where they place almost no value on the lives of anyone but Israeli citizens. I guess the analogy isn't that clean, but the mentality does seem to be the same.
I don't understand all the contempt for the aid organization who "provoked the attack by breaking a blockade". First of all, as many have said Israel has no right entering ships in international waters, so technically they didn't provoke anything. Second, Israel's Gaza policies are detestable and a breach of human rights, therefore provoking Israel and drawing attention to its abhorrent policies is a good thing. If you're interested in providing for the usual apologies for whenever the United States or Israel commits yet another atrocity and defending attacking a defenseless boat in international waters that was looking to provide humanitarian aid to a suffering population created by a host of illegal Israeli policies, then go ahead, though.
when you read a book or pages of 50 about every single matter that is listed. Come to me and we can have a chat.
Have you read a single book about the atrocities committed by turkey? No, you haven't, so why the hell are you demanding that should? Let alone read a book about every single atrocity committed by Turkey.
And if you have read a book concerning the atrocity's commited by Turkey, well, there you go.
2 words:
Native Americans.. However this is not a pissing contest, it is a tragedy... Even the most ignorant Turk knows more about the subjects you've linked than you. More than half of the subjects you've linked are biased and posted via a website that is supported by a terrorist group called PKK..
To help you comprehend, it is like Usama Bin Ladin blaming USA for genocide of al-Qaeda soldiers. Which is obviously false.
Again this isn't the subject. To direct you into the right direction it is; Israil's animalistic response to a humanitarian cause..
On June 01 2010 06:42 Jibba wrote: If you're buying the government line, then there's not much I can do to convince you otherwise.
Gaza is short on many things like food, water, electricity, school supplies, etc. Whether or not people have previously used aid to sneak weaponry (which can be done with anything) doesn't mean you deny all access. It'd be like stopping Mexican imports to combat illegal immigration. And then on top of that are the human rights violations.
I'm aware of this. I highly doubt that the humanitarian organization was attempting to smuggle weapons. That being said, are you suggesting that it was a likely outcome at all that a country would simply let another country go past it's blockade? Of course not. You can disagree with the reasons behind the blockade, even I do, but the actions that transpired in this specific scenario were completely within reason.
Read my earlier posts. The soldiers followed correct RoE, but the decision to board was questionable at best. It's not like this is the first time a country has tried to break another's blockade. When it's two major powers like this, usually the other one doesn't get boarded.
Their were multiple requests from Israel for basic preconditions, like a simple search of the cargo. They were all refused, so the matter simply becomes an insult to Israels sovereignty, something that is already heavily disputed among extremist groups in the middle east.
On June 01 2010 07:06 mass_ wrote: israelis are rapidly transforming into whom they have suffered from the most.. To Hitler... Killing the innocent.. Some of you are even ignorant enough to support their action.
Are you fucking serious? Name one similarity or shut up with your nazi tourettes.
Their is literally more similarities in the US with Nazi Germany then Israel.
Also, your positing not only is Israel turning into Nazi Germany, but that every single israeli is becoming...hitler...
So let me reiterate...are you fucking serious?
I also remember saying it is about a country and its goverment don't manipulate with what I say here..
On June 01 2010 06:59 besiger wrote: I just dont get the reasoning behind doing this in international waters, cant wrap my head around that part.
They wanted to enter israeli waters during day so the media coverage can be really big and live.
The israeli calculated this and thought they'd get out cheaper if they attack at the night, even in international waters. Probably they came out better to the worldwide public opinion but certainly worse from a political point of view.
On June 01 2010 06:59 besiger wrote: I just dont get the reasoning behind doing this in international waters, cant wrap my head around that part.
They wanted to enter israeli waters during day so the media coverage can be really big and live.
The israeli calculated this and thought they'd get out cheaper if they attack at the night, even in international waters. Probably they came out better to the worldwide public opinion but certainly worse from a political point of view.
The way i see it they were being dicks, the so call humanitarians.
They made their intentions clear to go to gaza without being search or double checked in anyway
and they were near enough Israeli water during the raid, i just see this as Israel settling this on their terms not theirs.
Water disputes is minor issue imo as they made it clear they were going into Israeli waters very soon.
when you read a book or pages of 50 about every single matter that is listed. Come to me and we can have a chat.
Have you read a single book about the atrocities committed by turkey? No, you haven't, so why the hell are you demanding that should? Let alone read a book about every single atrocity committed by Turkey.
And if you have read a book concerning the atrocity's commited by Turkey, well, there you go.
Lol, How do you know I didn't in the first place. You are so funny, you seem to know me closely, you don't even know my name. But yes I have read a lot, and I don't need to prove it to you. My focus is on international law and politics as I am a student of law. So I HAVE TO read a lot. I hope that is enough for you because I won't try to prove my knowledge about those matters again.
BUT COPY PASTE! Copy paste is the thing that I despise. Anyway...
Just like between Israel and Phalestine these matters are never one-sided and they have tons of pre-events followed to them.
You are also funny enough to compare Israeli blockade with US mexico border.
around 6 hours ago, posts were more reasonable and opposite opinions could discuss matter. In this hour this thread became sth else.
I am done with this thread.
So your fully aware. Then whats the issue? Are you denying that they happened? I'm not dismissing them, I'm sure they have causes. I'm not condemning Turkey.
So if we assume that they a)Happened, and were bad and b)But had a complex background surrounding them, doesn't the exact same thing apply to this?
I also remember saying it is about a country and its goverment don't manipulate with what I say here..
No..you...didn't.
israelisare rapidly transforming into whom they have suffered from the most.. To Hitle
Perhaps you didn't mean that, but thats clearly what you typed.
Again this isn't the subject. To direct you into the right direction it is; Israil's animalistic response to a humanitarian cause..
none of this was "animalistic" what so ever. The only wrongdoing you could impose on Israel is the blockade itself, which is of questionable morality. This specific action is literally by the book.
If this was genuinely a humanitarian cause instead of a political one, why the hell didn't they offer to let their supplies be checked? Or better yet, transferred directly the residents of Gaza?
No, it was a political cause. Not only that, but they resisted violently. The resulting bloodbath is an invariability when you stab a commando with a knife.
On June 01 2010 06:59 besiger wrote: I just dont get the reasoning behind doing this in international waters, cant wrap my head around that part.
They wanted to enter israeli waters during day so the media coverage can be really big and live.
The israeli calculated this and thought they'd get out cheaper if they attack at the night, even in international waters. Probably they came out better to the worldwide public opinion but certainly worse from a political point of view.
The way i see it they were being dicks, the so call humanitarians.
They made their intentions clear to go to gaza without being search or double checked in anyway
and they were near enough Israeli water during the raid, i just see this as Israel settling this on their terms not theirs.
Water disputes is minor issue imo as they made it clear they were going into Israeli waters very soon.
Is there any way someone can forcefully stand up to power or stand for injustice without being rude, then?
On June 01 2010 06:59 besiger wrote: I just dont get the reasoning behind doing this in international waters, cant wrap my head around that part.
They wanted to enter israeli waters during day so the media coverage can be really big and live.
The israeli calculated this and thought they'd get out cheaper if they attack at the night, even in international waters. Probably they came out better to the worldwide public opinion but certainly worse from a political point of view.
The way i see it they were being dicks, the so call humanitarians.
They made their intentions clear to go to gaza without being search or double checked in anyway
and they were near enough Israeli water during the raid, i just see this as Israel settling this on their terms not theirs.
Water disputes is minor issue imo as they made it clear they were going into Israeli waters very soon.
Is there any way someone can forcefully stand up to power or stand for injustice without being rude, then?
For one, you can start by not stabbing people. It's not like they were sitting in their ship peacefully and the Israeli's just opened fire.
On June 01 2010 06:59 besiger wrote: I just dont get the reasoning behind doing this in international waters, cant wrap my head around that part.
They wanted to enter israeli waters during day so the media coverage can be really big and live.
The israeli calculated this and thought they'd get out cheaper if they attack at the night, even in international waters. Probably they came out better to the worldwide public opinion but certainly worse from a political point of view.
I see, but how can they defend their actions from a legal standpoint ? And what could the consequences be for the attack. Just asking about the fact that it was done in international waters.
On June 01 2010 06:59 besiger wrote: I just dont get the reasoning behind doing this in international waters, cant wrap my head around that part.
They wanted to enter israeli waters during day so the media coverage can be really big and live.
The israeli calculated this and thought they'd get out cheaper if they attack at the night, even in international waters. Probably they came out better to the worldwide public opinion but certainly worse from a political point of view.
The way i see it they were being dicks, the so call humanitarians.
They made their intentions clear to go to gaza without being search or double checked in anyway
and they were near enough Israeli water during the raid, i just see this as Israel settling this on their terms not theirs.
Water disputes is minor issue imo as they made it clear they were going into Israeli waters very soon.
Is there any way someone can forcefully stand up to power or stand for injustice without being rude, then?
For one, you can start by not stabbing people.
Not relevant, it was about the earlier decision to send an aid ship to Gaza, the events that happened on the boat, awful as they may be are inconsequential to that discussion. I think those aid organizations and other assorted people are clearly justified in provoking a response by Israel by offering humanitarian aid (entirely peaceful), given the way Israel has treated the palestinian population, anyway.
edit: and mind you, Israel is clearly at fault for illegally entering them, some folks trying to defend themselves or forcefully protest what happened is clearly minor compared to the decision to enter the boat in the first place, not to mention the dozen dead people that are all on the defender's side.
On June 01 2010 06:59 besiger wrote: I just dont get the reasoning behind doing this in international waters, cant wrap my head around that part.
They wanted to enter israeli waters during day so the media coverage can be really big and live.
The israeli calculated this and thought they'd get out cheaper if they attack at the night, even in international waters. Probably they came out better to the worldwide public opinion but certainly worse from a political point of view.
The way i see it they were being dicks, the so call humanitarians.
They made their intentions clear to go to gaza without being search or double checked in anyway
and they were near enough Israeli water during the raid, i just see this as Israel settling this on their terms not theirs.
Water disputes is minor issue imo as they made it clear they were going into Israeli waters very soon.
Is there any way someone can forcefully stand up to power or stand for injustice without being rude, then?
For one, you can start by not stabbing people.
Not relevant, it was about the earlier decision to send an aid ship to Gaza, the events that happened on the boat, awful as they may be are inconsequential to that discussion. I think those aid organizations and other assorted people are clearly justified in provoking a response by Israel by offering humanitarian aid (entirely peaceful), given the way Israel has treated the palestinian population, anyway.
So do I. In the same way the Israeli's are completely justified in opening fire once a member of their response team gets stabbed with a knife.
On June 01 2010 06:59 besiger wrote: I just dont get the reasoning behind doing this in international waters, cant wrap my head around that part.
They wanted to enter israeli waters during day so the media coverage can be really big and live.
The israeli calculated this and thought they'd get out cheaper if they attack at the night, even in international waters. Probably they came out better to the worldwide public opinion but certainly worse from a political point of view.
The way i see it they were being dicks, the so call humanitarians.
They made their intentions clear to go to gaza without being search or double checked in anyway
and they were near enough Israeli water during the raid, i just see this as Israel settling this on their terms not theirs.
Water disputes is minor issue imo as they made it clear they were going into Israeli waters very soon.
Is there any way someone can forcefully stand up to power or stand for injustice without being rude, then?
the "injustice" in the gaza strip is self created by the people in the gaza strip, the injustice in the west bank is something more black and white where the Israeli are clearly out of line, why not go after that in more proper forms?
Oh that's right becuase then you can't put on a show can demon-ize Israel which frankly wont fly well in the US no matter how to spin it which is frankly the deciding factor, so rethink your strategy.
I was skeptical of the aerial footage of the humanitarians fighting back, until i saw the ones where i can clearly tell those are soldiers landing on the boat while being pelted and beating upon landing on the ship.
they didn't allow a cargo search and clearly were being confrontational, Israel wont blink twice to it's own safety, there is a reason why the rockets fired by hamas into southern Israel doesn't kill more then a few people a year, Israel is proactive and fortified the area and they aren't going to change their colors just because you say your for peace and humanitarian reasons.
On June 01 2010 06:59 besiger wrote: I just dont get the reasoning behind doing this in international waters, cant wrap my head around that part.
They wanted to enter israeli waters during day so the media coverage can be really big and live.
The israeli calculated this and thought they'd get out cheaper if they attack at the night, even in international waters. Probably they came out better to the worldwide public opinion but certainly worse from a political point of view.
The way i see it they were being dicks, the so call humanitarians.
They made their intentions clear to go to gaza without being search or double checked in anyway
and they were near enough Israeli water during the raid, i just see this as Israel settling this on their terms not theirs.
Water disputes is minor issue imo as they made it clear they were going into Israeli waters very soon.
Is there any way someone can forcefully stand up to power or stand for injustice without being rude, then?
the "injustice" in the gaza strip is self created by the people in the gaza strip, the injustice in the west bank is something more black and white where the Israeli are clearly out of line, why not go after that in more proper forms?
Oh that's right becuase then you can't put on a show can demon-ize Israel which frankly wont fly well in the US no matter how to spin it which is frankly the deciding factor, so rethink your strategy.
I was skeptical of the aerial footage of the humanitarians fighting back, until i saw the ones where i can clearly tell those are soldiers landing on the boat while being pelted and beating upon landing on the ship.
they didn't allow a cargo search and clearly were being confrontational, Israel wont blink twice to it's own safety, there is a reason why the rockets fired by hamas into southern Israel doesn't kill more then a few people a year, Israel is proactive and fortified the area and they aren't going to change their colors just because you say your for peace and humanitarian reasons.
It must be nice to live in your world where injustice has to be addressed through the proper channels and forms so that they can be neatly dismissed and rationalized away and you can sleep comfortly. If sending humanitarian aid provokes Israel so much then maybe that's a good reason to draw attention towards it and something is horribly wrong there?
Also, there's plenty of sources for all the things Israel has done to Gaza, go read the report linked by Liquid'Drone earlier for example, and that's just warcrimes, not strategy.
For anyone thinking that the soldiers where just randomly starting to shoot the passengers for no reason watch this, especially watch how the first soldier to come down gets treated:
On June 01 2010 06:59 besiger wrote: I just dont get the reasoning behind doing this in international waters, cant wrap my head around that part.
They wanted to enter israeli waters during day so the media coverage can be really big and live.
The israeli calculated this and thought they'd get out cheaper if they attack at the night, even in international waters. Probably they came out better to the worldwide public opinion but certainly worse from a political point of view.
The way i see it they were being dicks, the so call humanitarians.
They made their intentions clear to go to gaza without being search or double checked in anyway
and they were near enough Israeli water during the raid, i just see this as Israel settling this on their terms not theirs.
Water disputes is minor issue imo as they made it clear they were going into Israeli waters very soon.
Is there any way someone can forcefully stand up to power or stand for injustice without being rude, then?
For one, you can start by not stabbing people. It's not like they were sitting in their ship peacefully and the Israeli's just opened fire.
Thank you for clarifying on what I meant by "Israelis". English is not my native language, so things you mean can sometimes come out differently.
Tell me what you would do if someone breaks into your house in the middle of the night with a machine gun in his hand and you are not trained or informed on crisis management? You'd freak out and try to take an action without putting too much afford to thinking.
For the record; Soldiers boarding on that ship on the international waters is illegal and there is no such thing as "near enough". You are either on their waters or not. Period.
EPT
