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A couple more sources (I haven't read the whole thread so perhaps they have been discussed):
I believe this is the organization that is operating the freedom flotilla. You can find information and regular updates about the whole operation here:
http://un-truth.com/
This is a news site that has a big focus on the occupied territories. Some may find it leftist, and that bias is to be considered, but it is an alternative view to the Western media's portrayal of the occupied territories (at least in the US.. I get the impression the news is more equitable in Europe).
http://onlinejournal.com/
These actions by the Israeli state are morally reprehensible but hardly surprising. What human rights abuses and international law infractions are beyond the scope of Israeli policy?
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United States22883 Posts
On June 01 2010 05:55 beetlejuice wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 05:40 Jibba wrote:On June 01 2010 05:27 beetlejuice wrote:
Turkey has already took steps to (nearly) stop relations with Israel.
-3 military co-training is cancelled
-U-18 football team's match with Israel U18 is cancelled.
-Israeli Ambassador in Turkey has been called for discussion.
-NATO states has been called for immediate meetings.
-UN Security Council has been called to gather for immediate meetings.
and now Turkey is demanding the injured citizens asap from Israel. They don't want Israel to look after them.
Some military official said this incident is a Casus Belli.
The government said they are waiting for the injured citizen. After that is taken care of.
There will be more steps to take officials said. These are political games. Israel and Turkey have been doing it for about a year to leverage for favor among the US and EU, but they're still top trading partners. Neither side wants to sever the relationship, they just want to play a coy game to punish the other for acting out. Israel leaks a memo to Greece about a new trade route, Turkey cancels joint military exercises, etc. Turks obviously support Palestinians, but the government is just going to use it for the elections. And let's be honest, would you rather be treated at an Israeli hospital or a Turkish one? Even Amerikan and Acibadem aren't the same. And also I can't help myself but to agree that, in this century all wars are caused on money, political balance. Back then, countries were calling wars for territory and indepedence. Now it's just international trade, money, political balance. So corrupt. Yeah. I'm curious what NATO says, but tbh, I think the Turkey-Israel relationship is the only thing that might change from this. Living conditions in Gaza aren't going to improve for Palestinians, especially if people only condemn one of the parties (Israel) that's keeping it that way. There's a lot less forces supporting Palestinians than there are against them. Palestinians are the new Jews. D:
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On June 01 2010 03:03 Pika Chu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 02:56 Biochemist wrote:On June 01 2010 02:45 Pika Chu wrote:On June 01 2010 02:29 semantics wrote:On June 01 2010 02:28 Autofire2 wrote:
OK...why is everyone taking the "Israel warned them" as a defense? I mean, the legality of the blockade and the fact that it was boarding while in international waters might be debatable. It seems like Israel was in the wrong but maybe a legal expert can confirm or deny this.
But the warning? How is that a defense? Is everyone in the world supposed to tiptoe around this country (not even in their territory or waters) because they tell people "look at us funny and we'll **** your **** up?"
You know what, what if it had been Iran that created this blockade and killed those unarmed, western activists? Would as many people be standing up for them because Ahmedinijad "warned" them? Hell, a war might have been declared by now.
I'm no fan of Iran's domestic or foreign policy, but you see my point. Why let Israel off the hook for something that would be condemned if it was coming from any other country with a very suspect human rights record?
Lol this is the Internet... tons of people would be going "What dumb asses, they got what they knew what was coming" Anyways if you want to maintain that you are peaceful, you don't scurry around when commandos storm your boat, you sit lock your selves in and don't move. How about don't act as pirates and this wouldn't have happened. So your solution would just be to let Hamas fortify Gaza until the whole place turns into Mogadishu? My solution for what, peace? My solution is to give palestinians back a part of their territory so they can build themselves a palestinian state. Only then the area will calm down. And a solution for this is that Israel starts acting normal and follow the laws and international treaties.
Israel has offered the palestinians all of the land they currently have plus western Jerusalem MULTIPLE times and every time the palestinians either haven't responded or have said no. This is not the solution since they don't just want their own lands, they refuse the existance of a jewish state (especially in that part of the world).
Basically diplomacy has little to no chance of working.
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United States22883 Posts
On June 01 2010 06:01 On_Slaught wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 03:03 Pika Chu wrote:On June 01 2010 02:56 Biochemist wrote:On June 01 2010 02:45 Pika Chu wrote:On June 01 2010 02:29 semantics wrote:On June 01 2010 02:28 Autofire2 wrote:
OK...why is everyone taking the "Israel warned them" as a defense? I mean, the legality of the blockade and the fact that it was boarding while in international waters might be debatable. It seems like Israel was in the wrong but maybe a legal expert can confirm or deny this.
But the warning? How is that a defense? Is everyone in the world supposed to tiptoe around this country (not even in their territory or waters) because they tell people "look at us funny and we'll **** your **** up?"
You know what, what if it had been Iran that created this blockade and killed those unarmed, western activists? Would as many people be standing up for them because Ahmedinijad "warned" them? Hell, a war might have been declared by now.
I'm no fan of Iran's domestic or foreign policy, but you see my point. Why let Israel off the hook for something that would be condemned if it was coming from any other country with a very suspect human rights record?
Lol this is the Internet... tons of people would be going "What dumb asses, they got what they knew what was coming" Anyways if you want to maintain that you are peaceful, you don't scurry around when commandos storm your boat, you sit lock your selves in and don't move. How about don't act as pirates and this wouldn't have happened. So your solution would just be to let Hamas fortify Gaza until the whole place turns into Mogadishu? My solution for what, peace? My solution is to give palestinians back a part of their territory so they can build themselves a palestinian state. Only then the area will calm down. And a solution for this is that Israel starts acting normal and follow the laws and international treaties. Israel has offered the palestinians all of the land they currently have plus western Jerusalem MULTIPLE times and every time the palestinians either haven't responded or have said no. This is not the solution since they don't just want their own lands, they refuse the existance of a jewish state (especially in that part of the world). Basically diplomacy has little to no chance of working. How much do you know about the history of the conflict?
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On June 01 2010 04:35 beetlejuice wrote:
this is my feelings as a Turkish citizen other than trying to comment on the matter unbiased.
My citizens and my ppl have been killed when
-they weren't armed
-they were in the international water
thus my feelings hurt.
AND....
-my army is bigger then Israeli's in air,ground and sea.
-every turkish boy HAS to do military service so they are trained. (as israel)
if my government calls for war you can add minimum, minimum! 2 million soldiers who are done with their military service and called by the military. that's the purpose of training every boy in the military, in case of a war they are to be called. If you want to add veterans you can add few more millions.
-my country has nuclear weapons in its borders as every hot region country. hiding them.
now my demands:
I DON'T DEMAND WAR. because that's why I am against this Israeli act on aid ship in the first place. I know my country can pound Israel, but I don't want it.
Because if I want war, I will be no different from those who commited a crime of humanity today.
In the end, war kills children.
(unfortunately I am browsing several national news websites and they are mostly encouraging war. I am not one of them.)
BUT... I want justice. Israel needs to pay for its crime.
note: if recent government won't act accordingly and pursue punishment. ppl will make government pay for it. that's what I understand from data I've collected from my country.
are you sure your country have nuclear weapons???????
lol I think I have never seen a post so full of fail
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On June 01 2010 05:55 beetlejuice wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 05:40 Jibba wrote:On June 01 2010 05:27 beetlejuice wrote:
Turkey has already took steps to (nearly) stop relations with Israel.
-3 military co-training is cancelled
-U-18 football team's match with Israel U18 is cancelled.
-Israeli Ambassador in Turkey has been called for discussion.
-NATO states has been called for immediate meetings.
-UN Security Council has been called to gather for immediate meetings.
and now Turkey is demanding the injured citizens asap from Israel. They don't want Israel to look after them.
Some military official said this incident is a Casus Belli.
The government said they are waiting for the injured citizen. After that is taken care of.
There will be more steps to take officials said. These are political games. Israel and Turkey have been doing it for about a year to leverage for favor among the US and EU, but they're still top trading partners. Neither side wants to sever the relationship, they just want to play a coy game to punish the other for acting out. Israel leaks a memo to Greece about a new trade route, Turkey cancels joint military exercises, etc. Turks obviously support Palestinians, but the government is just going to use it for the elections. And let's be honest, would you rather be treated at an Israeli hospital or a Turkish one? Even Amerikan and Acibadem aren't the same. And also I can't help myself but to agree that, in this century all wars are caused on money, political balance. Back then, countries were calling wars for territory and indepedence. Now it's just international trade, money, political balance. So corrupt.
War.... war never changes.
Im serious lol.. the wars of the past were just as corrupt as current ones, many of them simply justified through ideology or faith but ultimately were just about money, power and influence.
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Turkey does have nuclear bombers in it's borders, as a part of NATO retaliation arsenal. Though those aren't Turkish nuclear weapons, nor does Turkey will decide when or where to use them.
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On June 01 2010 06:09 Jakalo wrote:
Turkey does have nuclear bombers in it's borders, as a part of NATO retaliation arsenal. Though those aren't Turkish nuclear weapons, nor does Turkey will decide when or where to use them.
maybe they could just borrow them for a while... ugh.
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On June 01 2010 06:04 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 06:01 On_Slaught wrote:On June 01 2010 03:03 Pika Chu wrote:On June 01 2010 02:56 Biochemist wrote:On June 01 2010 02:45 Pika Chu wrote:On June 01 2010 02:29 semantics wrote:On June 01 2010 02:28 Autofire2 wrote:
OK...why is everyone taking the "Israel warned them" as a defense? I mean, the legality of the blockade and the fact that it was boarding while in international waters might be debatable. It seems like Israel was in the wrong but maybe a legal expert can confirm or deny this.
But the warning? How is that a defense? Is everyone in the world supposed to tiptoe around this country (not even in their territory or waters) because they tell people "look at us funny and we'll **** your **** up?"
You know what, what if it had been Iran that created this blockade and killed those unarmed, western activists? Would as many people be standing up for them because Ahmedinijad "warned" them? Hell, a war might have been declared by now.
I'm no fan of Iran's domestic or foreign policy, but you see my point. Why let Israel off the hook for something that would be condemned if it was coming from any other country with a very suspect human rights record?
Lol this is the Internet... tons of people would be going "What dumb asses, they got what they knew what was coming" Anyways if you want to maintain that you are peaceful, you don't scurry around when commandos storm your boat, you sit lock your selves in and don't move. How about don't act as pirates and this wouldn't have happened. So your solution would just be to let Hamas fortify Gaza until the whole place turns into Mogadishu? My solution for what, peace? My solution is to give palestinians back a part of their territory so they can build themselves a palestinian state. Only then the area will calm down. And a solution for this is that Israel starts acting normal and follow the laws and international treaties. Israel has offered the palestinians all of the land they currently have plus western Jerusalem MULTIPLE times and every time the palestinians either haven't responded or have said no. This is not the solution since they don't just want their own lands, they refuse the existance of a jewish state (especially in that part of the world). Basically diplomacy has little to no chance of working. How much do you know about the history of the conflict?
Enough to know this can't end well.
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Turkey has nato nukes, like almost every nato country. I can tell you even Italy, in which every form of nuclear energy is still illegal, has nato nukes on its territory. You don't nuke a nato member, ever.
I can reasonably suppose what Turkey will ask Nato is their support in the case the military escorts get attacked, in international waters or in the gaza area. They don't want to go to war, but should they have no choice, they surely don't want to go alone.
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Interesting, but i never imagined everyone's siding with israeli government as some may think.
I don't know the real public opinion in Israeli but there may be enough israelis who dislike their government's actions.
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It would be very nice (for me at least) for someone who is more familiar with the whole situation to actually describe what both partys (Israelis/Palestinians) actually want.
I cant see the Palistinians creating a functional state on their own even when given the possibility, nor can i see a coexistence of palistinians and Isrealis in a State under Israeli control (current situation).
On a sidenote: lol @ Turkish nuclear armament, lay off the pipe dude :-) Those are Barracks Obama's nukes, turkey does to my knowledge not even have a nuclear power plant (which are needed to enrichen uranium for nuclear weapons). And no, no country and at the very least a brick state like turkey is going to war. Reason is simple: you loose even if you win, and that is if the others dont have the nukes. Ask the Us, France, the Balkan States, Israel to give a few examples of the later years. I could write a whole essay about how hard it is to control towns the size of 500k people for armed forces, let alone whole countrys. Instead just take a look at the Gaza strip.
edit: agree with jabbas post, good points
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On June 01 2010 05:24 jalstar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 05:10 beetlejuice wrote:
the funny thing is, only likes of you have a logic of justification that "I can kill ppl because others did it too and they can't stop me."
you can just say jews, we know you mean jews
Seriously, you should stop saying that unless you're pretty sure.
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Hindsight is ever perfect.
I think what we're looking at is similar to that thing posted on tl a few weeks ago about the swat team breaking into a house for drug charges, and then killing the corgi (dog). The swat team guys were just following their orders and obeying standard protocol for the situation; problem is that standard protocol was not appropriate for the situation in hindsight, but presumably was deemed necessary for lack of adequete intelligence (information).
Politics: Israel tells the boat they will force it out if it tries to enter the blocade, and tells them to instead drop the supplies off elsewhere so they can be searched before being sent to Gaza. The boat ignores this, soldiers are sent in. Presumably some guy pulled a knife, or for whatever reason "shit hit the fan" and the situation on the boat escalated into what happened. In hindsight, what happened was excessive.
I'm not defending the reasoning behind the blocade or trying to justify it, but if you accept the Israeli report of the situation, the talks between the blocade and the boat, the soldiers' initial hand-fighting which escalated, etc, it really seems like the boat is the bad guy here who ignored Israel's warning. They refused to cooperate with Israel to get the supplies there, they simply rushed ahead. If their goal was just to get their asses kicked to show how brutal Israel has become and publicise the blocade and how unjustifiable it is, then great they got their wish, should be no complaints from them. It's like kicking a hybernating bear to publicise how vicious bears are.
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On June 01 2010 05:59 Jibba wrote:
Yeah. I'm curious what NATO says, but tbh, I think the Turkey-Israel relationship is the only thing that might change from this. Living conditions in Gaza aren't going to improve for Palestinians, especially if people only condemn one of the parties (Israel) that's keeping it that way. There's a lot less forces supporting Palestinians than there are against them. Palestinians are the new Jews. D:
This is weird, weren't Turkey and Israel close allies? Especially on military level, less on politics of course.
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I'm just going to point out that this shit happens on a daily fucking basis on the US mexico border. Nobody calls the US "Nazi Germany". Nobody intelligent. If your attempting to illegally entering a country, wtf do you expect?
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EPT
