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On June 01 2010 03:58 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 03:51 Korbin Dallas wrote:
Option one was not an option. It wasn't even possible. It was either board the flotilla or sink them all.... Seriously if a country like Israel says stay the fuck out... you stay the fuck out. They do not mess around. Good point. And if a country like the rest of the world says, "Israel, fucking cut that shit out" and Israel does not cut that shit out, they should be carpetbombed with nuclear warheads. We do not mess around. ...might does make right, doesn't it?
Your right it doesn't, but that isn't the issue... the issue is a bunch of hotheaded activists (whether right or wrong doesn't matter) were running a naval blockade to deliver supplies to a war-like zone (idk if it's technically a war zone). If they followed the the rules they wouldn't have got hurt and most supplies would have made it.
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GREAT, no again, can someone please give a quick list of HOW many times this has happened. But we should be warned, this might be the start to prophesied WWIII
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this has happened what, 9001 times now?
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God forbid I look funny on the internet... on a SC2 forum.
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On June 01 2010 03:31 SirGlinG wrote:
The Israeli strategy to stop a ship on international water from reaching Gaza:
option 1. They had surrounded all the ships so a clinical shot on the propellers would have stopped it.
option 2. Board a ship in the middle of the night with armed troops, hope the people aboard ( on this ship mostly turkish) wont' try resisting because then they'd have to shoot in self defence.
Military intelligence, political strategy, diplomatic intelligence.
Where are you?
Option 1 is escluded because Israel doesn't really have a navy. 4 submarines and a few support ships..
Until now the turkish reaction seems moderate so we can rule out war, which imo israel deserved, because it's easy to pick on the weak guys(killing pacifists ? they sure like winning easily), they should be confronted with the 50k turkish navy ships and be blockaded.. but oh well i guess the guy posting about economic ties and implying money > everything was right. Worst than can now happen is the UN condemning the action and ordering an investigation, after which we'll have to see if it just settles down (probably) or if the results of the investigation will have consequences. Probably another resolution "condeming" Israel. Anyway when you see a nation turning to UN and not to NATO you know there's no war coming soon.
I don't know who said turkey can't transport troops to Israel, they sure can both by sea and ground, or do you really think syria and lebanon would deny them passage ? :D I think they would even help them.
Ah and the Turkish navy escort thing was just a hypothesis until now :
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/turkey-threatens-action-israel-on-alert/116743-2.html
Ankara warned that further supply vessels will be sent to Gaza, escorted by the Turkish Navy, a development with unpredictable consequences.
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On June 01 2010 03:03 Pika Chu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 02:56 Biochemist wrote:On June 01 2010 02:45 Pika Chu wrote:On June 01 2010 02:29 semantics wrote:On June 01 2010 02:28 Autofire2 wrote:
OK...why is everyone taking the "Israel warned them" as a defense? I mean, the legality of the blockade and the fact that it was boarding while in international waters might be debatable. It seems like Israel was in the wrong but maybe a legal expert can confirm or deny this.
But the warning? How is that a defense? Is everyone in the world supposed to tiptoe around this country (not even in their territory or waters) because they tell people "look at us funny and we'll **** your **** up?"
You know what, what if it had been Iran that created this blockade and killed those unarmed, western activists? Would as many people be standing up for them because Ahmedinijad "warned" them? Hell, a war might have been declared by now.
I'm no fan of Iran's domestic or foreign policy, but you see my point. Why let Israel off the hook for something that would be condemned if it was coming from any other country with a very suspect human rights record?
Lol this is the Internet... tons of people would be going "What dumb asses, they got what they knew what was coming" Anyways if you want to maintain that you are peaceful, you don't scurry around when commandos storm your boat, you sit lock your selves in and don't move. How about don't act as pirates and this wouldn't have happened. So your solution would just be to let Hamas fortify Gaza until the whole place turns into Mogadishu? My solution for what, peace? My solution is to give palestinians back a part of their territory so they can build themselves a palestinian state. Only then the area will calm down. And a solution for this is that Israel starts acting normal and follow the laws and international treaties.
You do realize that Israel...umm...tried to this already....and you know what the Palestinians response was? Here, I'll give you a hint, it sounds like: we'll smill you.
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Israel are bad, they've bombed schools and civilian airports in the past and now they attack aid ships, watever way you wish to spin them, KILLING people because they defended themselves whilst being boarded with KNIVES when u have flak jackes, Kevlar and assault rifles is just plain wrong. Israel has been doing shit like this for ages, murdering civilians, torturing palestinians, starving out the Gaza strip for weeks on end, but the USA was always backing them, silencing dissent 'no, no, they have to defend themselves' but NOW the US is saying that they DONT condone these actions and that there WILL be an inquiry, an opinion shared by the UN and EU btw so NOW people get wind of the bullshit Israel really pulls. Israel shud become a DMZ with UN troops providing defense forces agaisnt any potential arab state attack, and that would solve tons of problems.
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On June 01 2010 03:58 semantics wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 03:56 SirGlinG wrote:On June 01 2010 03:46 semantics wrote:On June 01 2010 03:31 SirGlinG wrote:
The Israeli strategy to stop a ship on international water from reaching Gaza:
option 1. They had surrounded all the ships so a clinical shot on the propellers would have stopped it.
option 2. Board a ship in the middle of the night with armed troops, hope the people aboard ( on this ship mostly turkish) wont' try resisting because then they'd have to shoot in self defence.
Military intelligence, political strategy, diplomatic intelligence.
Where are you? You act like disabling the ship that is the size of a curse liner without sinking it is easy. Are you yourself an expert on this matter? I am certainly not, therefore I looked into the matter before posting and I stand by my word. Okay show me the news link where people disable a moving ship the size of a cruse liner without boarding it.
http://www.dn.se/nyheter/varlden/israel-kan-redan-tidigt-ha-beslutat-om-anfall-1.1114357
This is where I read about it but they don't give a Scientific explanation to the strategy.
(If you want to keep on discussing how it theoretically would work out I'm availabe tomorrow but now I'm following the aftermath of the attack)
On June 01 2010 03:51 Korbin Dallas wrote:
Option one was not an option. It wasn't even possible. It was either board the flotilla or sink them all.... Seriously if a country like Israel says stay the fuck out... you stay the fuck out. They do not mess around.
This is what all dictatorships dream of. People who see no point in resisting when they act morally wrong. (not saying Israel is a dictatorship)
I recommend you to read Foucaults ideas of what Fascism is.
And if you do please do it with an open mind, don't hate on me.
I'm just a human trying to open your eyes to other perspectives.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Foucault
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On June 01 2010 04:04 Ciryandor wrote:
If you see the ship composition and who they landed on, this was a dolt move by BOTH sides; landing on the Turkish ship, and not the ones flying NATO flags. (1 Italian, 2 Greek and 2 American)
Turkey is a NATO member.
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Isreal just created another 1000 new martyrs.
Also the newspaper who was the first to publish the danish muhammed cartoons namely Jyllands Posten (jp.dk) only has a video on their mainpage showing activists attacking isreali units and not Israeli units attacking activist ships. How biased!!
So with all due respect, Isreal should have had the same happen to them. They should be isolated from trade with the rest of the world. Because...
Well because all kinds of different nations ships weapons to Isreal. Even if they dont we can still isolate them under pure suspicion.
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On June 01 2010 04:32 Jakalo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 04:04 Ciryandor wrote:
If you see the ship composition and who they landed on, this was a dolt move by BOTH sides; landing on the Turkish ship, and not the ones flying NATO flags. (1 Italian, 2 Greek and 2 American)
Turkey is a NATO member.
Yep and should isreal not step down and attack the turkish escorts, turkey will have the right to call for nato help.
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Just remember if you pay taxes in the US, that's your tax dollars hard at work there.
Attacking non military ships carrying "Cement and water filters". America always talks about wanting peace, if the government really wanted it they should stop funding the aggressive side in this conflict. Gaza and "Palestine" in general is like a prison. They are trying to starve and neglect the people into submission. People are literally starving, have little to no medical care, their infrastructure is crumbling and constantly under attack. A huge purpose of the Occupation is to get Israel access to the water supplies in the "palestinian" areas.
The UN and multiple international organizations have denounced the occupation, but the US has a veto vote in the UN so nothing ever gets done. Votes in the UN on the issue are ALWAYS the US/Isreal vs Everyone Else. Occasionally countries (like Russia [in Chechnya] and China [in Tibet]) will back the US because they think it gives precedent justifying their own occupations.
It's a sick thing... and the amount that Americans do not know about how their tax money is being used is disturbing at best.
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On June 01 2010 04:38 Ganondorf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 04:32 Jakalo wrote:On June 01 2010 04:04 Ciryandor wrote:
If you see the ship composition and who they landed on, this was a dolt move by BOTH sides; landing on the Turkish ship, and not the ones flying NATO flags. (1 Italian, 2 Greek and 2 American)
Turkey is a NATO member. Yep and should isreal not step down and attack the turkish escorts, turkey will have the right to call for nato help.
you confuse NATO with being more competent then Israel when in reality they are about as competent in this situations as Israel.
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On June 01 2010 04:40 semantics wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 04:38 Ganondorf wrote:On June 01 2010 04:32 Jakalo wrote:On June 01 2010 04:04 Ciryandor wrote:
If you see the ship composition and who they landed on, this was a dolt move by BOTH sides; landing on the Turkish ship, and not the ones flying NATO flags. (1 Italian, 2 Greek and 2 American)
Turkey is a NATO member. Yep and should isreal not step down and attack the turkish escorts, turkey will have the right to call for nato help. you confuse NATO with being more competent then Israel when in reality they are about as competent in this situations as Israel.
NATO could just steamroll Israel, even if the US decides to stay neutral. You don't need competence to zerg a small country like israel with a mainly turkish army supported by nato (they just need air support to eliminate any israelian air threat). I really think Isreal will step down, i hope so at least. The Gaza blockade is illegal, if they try to enforce it again the israeli prime minister will get a declaration of war on his table and they can make a new chapter in the bible with a second diaspora.
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On June 01 2010 04:35 beetlejuice wrote:
this is my feelings as a Turkish citizen other than trying to comment on the matter unbiased.
My citizens and my ppl have been killed when
-they weren't armed
-they were in the international water
thus my feelings hurt.
AND....
-my army is bigger then Israeli's in air,ground and sea.
-every turkish boy HAS to do military service so they are trained. (as israel)
if my government calls for war you can add minimum, minimum! 2 million soldiers who are done with their military service and called by the military. that's the purpose of training every boy in the military, in case of a war they are to be called. If you want to add veterans you can add few more millions.
-my country has nuclear weapons in its borders
now my demands:
I DON'T DEMAND WAR. because that's why I am against this Israeli act on aid ship in the first place. I know my country can pound a little country like Israel, but I don't want it.
Because if I want war, I will be no different from those who commited a crime of humanity today.
(unfortunately I am browsing several national news websites and they are mostly encouraging war. I am not one of them.)
BUT... I want justice. Israel needs to pay for its crime.
note: if recent government won't act accordingly and pursue punishment. ppl will make government pay for it. that's what I understand from data I've collected from my country.
Was it really a crime?
Israel is giving out army footage currently it seems, showing how the soldiers were attacked FIRST while trying to board.
Now does it neccesarily make it right? Dunno, but I find it funny how people are raging without really having proper info what really happened.
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this is the reason i hate politics
i have nothing against Arabs or Turkics or whoever
but people here are just unbelievable ....
the reason there are 16 dead people is because the moment the soldiers boarded the ship they met a shower of Molotov bottles and steel bars on their head
now i cant expect them to be quiet but if they wanted to resist in that way they got what they deserved
the only sad thing about it is
1- this was all made for israel to look bad which they did look bad
2- Israeli's way of explaining the situation is even worse
and to all those people who say this was a humanitarian expedition get off the pipe and realize the truth
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On June 01 2010 04:53 NonFactor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 04:35 beetlejuice wrote:
this is my feelings as a Turkish citizen other than trying to comment on the matter unbiased.
My citizens and my ppl have been killed when
-they weren't armed
-they were in the international water
thus my feelings hurt.
AND....
-my army is bigger then Israeli's in air,ground and sea.
-every turkish boy HAS to do military service so they are trained. (as israel)
if my government calls for war you can add minimum, minimum! 2 million soldiers who are done with their military service and called by the military. that's the purpose of training every boy in the military, in case of a war they are to be called. If you want to add veterans you can add few more millions.
-my country has nuclear weapons in its borders
now my demands:
I DON'T DEMAND WAR. because that's why I am against this Israeli act on aid ship in the first place. I know my country can pound a little country like Israel, but I don't want it.
Because if I want war, I will be no different from those who commited a crime of humanity today.
(unfortunately I am browsing several national news websites and they are mostly encouraging war. I am not one of them.)
BUT... I want justice. Israel needs to pay for its crime.
note: if recent government won't act accordingly and pursue punishment. ppl will make government pay for it. that's what I understand from data I've collected from my country. Was it really a crime? Israel is giving out army footage currently it seems, showing how the soldiers were attacked FIRST while trying to board. Now does it neccesarily make it right? Dunno, but I find it funny how people are raging without really having proper info what really happened.
They boarded them in international waters (thus engaging in state-backed piracy, after like 400 years from when it last happened), with a single helicopter and entering the hostile ship one soldier at a time ? They were also attacked with NON-LETHAL methods, which is what you use in these cases, on both sides. The pacificts weren't even aiming at the heads in order to not cause severe injuries. Then they got shot. Get gas, hydrants, rubber proiectiles, tasers, wtf.
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EPT
