On July 16 2013 23:08 Yorbon wrote: Not saying it's better, but most people find it very comfortable.
Actually, I would argue that it quite possibly is easier overall. Mouse only requires using your mouse hand for two completely separate complex operations. Using the same hand for both of them means that your brain has to coordinate both complex actions for the same arm. Separating them so that one hand focuses on aiming and the other focuses on timing is likely easier for your brain to process.
Actually, I'm going to ask /r/askscience about this, because I've been wondering about it for a while but can't find any proper scientific articles on it, so I'll get back to you if askscience actually answers.
On July 16 2013 23:08 Yorbon wrote: Edit: oh, and btw, what helped me significantly as well was dimming the background and disabling the map skins. Less distraction is more concentration. Have you tried getting some other skins? The (new) standard one seems to be okay, but i feel there are way better skins out there.
THIS. Osu requires you to be able to identify and complete an action in a very short amount of time. Generally on the order of 500ms or less for harder stuff. This means that ANY delay in recognizing what you need to do can impact your overall score. Even if you don't feel like skins or background throw you off (except terrible BGs where the combo colors blend in) they still have an effect. When I replaced all my BG images with a black image (before the option was available to dim to 100%) I noticed an almost immediate jump in skill, even on stuff I felt I had no trouble playing at all. Backgrounds make it harder to see the change when a circle appears (and sometimes to read the approach circle, if you use it) and skins make it hard to identify that the circle or slider is in fact the object you need to aim for and click. Between both of these they can all considerable delay to the time it takes to recognize the action and then perform it.
Accomplishments!
Entozers Oni Kanojo mania map is hard. But I did manage to make a pretty nice improvement over my last top score. + Show Spoiler +
I also improved my score on his ChaiN De/struction map... Except that bancho was down when I did T.T + Show Spoiler +
@ bobbias (on the keyboard or mouse issue) : i agree it's easier. I just think 'feeling comfortable' has a big impact on technique 'being better', so that it's easier does not 1 on 1 mean it's better, dependent of course on set goals.
I had a score i was quite proud of as well: Typical saten-map: senketsu no chikai by yousei teikoku. quite jumpy, but i was glad was able to play it as consistently as this. (btw, 4 of the misses were because of a missed stream, lol) + Show Spoiler +
On July 18 2013 21:18 Yorbon wrote: @ bobbias (on the keyboard or mouse issue) : i agree it's easier. I just think 'feeling comfortable' has a big impact on technique 'being better', so that it's easier does not 1 on 1 mean it's better, dependent of course on set goals.
I will say that without a doubt mouse only is the more intuitive option. Everyone knows how a mouse works, and is used to moving and then clicking on objects. I'm just speaking from the objective position of which option takes less mental effort for the same level of result.
Someone replied on reddit with this old experiment: http://www.billbuxton.com/2hands.html. This implies that cases where you can use both hands to perform simultaneous continuous input is better than using a single hand, but unfortunately this is not particularly applicable to the issues in osu (though it lends some strength to the idea of separating input between hands).
Comfort is definitely a big issue, which is why there was an adjustment period when i made the switch. Changing anything form what you are used to will always move you out of your comfort zone and cause your play to be worse for a time. The question is ultimately "will making this switch be better once I adjust to it".
Edit: I'm going to keep trying to find research to better understand this stuff. So far I can't find anything that is directly applicable, but reading through neuroscience papers without the proper education is not particularly easy, so I may be missing information that would help.
However, it seems very plausible that separating the actions would make things easier to process. Tasks which have brain activity in the opposite side of the brain from the arm performing the task seem to be more active than for tasks which involve the same side of the brain. (from this abstract) Interestingly, it appears that movement involving your upper arm (called proximal arm) tend to activate the same side of the motor cortex as the arm is (called the ipsilateral side of the cortex) more strongly than movements of the hands/fingers. This means that if you move your fingers on your left hand, most activity will be on the right side, whereas if you move your right upper arm, most activity will be on the left side, but there will be comparatively more activity on the right side as well.
This could have interesting implications considering that clicking uses your wrist/fingers while moving the mouse generally uses more upper arm movements (of course, this varies depending on the exact way someone uses their mouse, but there is always more upper arm movement using the mouse than pressing keys, especially if you can hover directly over them like the ZX keys in osu).
On July 18 2013 21:18 Yorbon wrote: @ bobbias (on the keyboard or mouse issue) : i agree it's easier. I just think 'feeling comfortable' has a big impact on technique 'being better', so that it's easier does not 1 on 1 mean it's better, dependent of course on set goals.
I will say that without a doubt mouse only is the more intuitive option. Everyone knows how a mouse works, and is used to moving and then clicking on objects. I'm just speaking from the objective position of which option takes less mental effort for the same level of result.
Someone replied on reddit with this old experiment: http://www.billbuxton.com/2hands.html. This implies that cases where you can use both hands to perform simultaneous continuous input is better than using a single hand, but unfortunately this is not particularly applicable to the issues in osu (though it lends some strength to the idea of separating input between hands).
Comfort is definitely a big issue, which is why there was an adjustment period when i made the switch. Changing anything form what you are used to will always move you out of your comfort zone and cause your play to be worse for a time. The question is ultimately "will making this switch be better once I adjust to it".
Edit: I'm going to keep trying to find research to better understand this stuff. So far I can't find anything that is directly applicable, but reading through neuroscience papers without the proper education is not particularly easy, so I may be missing information that would help.
However, it seems very plausible that separating the actions would make things easier to process. Tasks which have brain activity in the opposite side of the brain from the arm performing the task seem to be more active than for tasks which involve the same side of the brain. (from this abstract) Interestingly, it appears that movement involving your upper arm (called proximal arm) tend to activate the same side of the motor cortex as the arm is (called the ipsilateral side of the cortex) more strongly than movements of the hands/fingers. This means that if you move your fingers on your left hand, most activity will be on the right side, whereas if you move your right upper arm, most activity will be on the left side, but there will be comparatively more activity on the right side as well.
This could have interesting implications considering that clicking uses your wrist/fingers while moving the mouse generally uses more upper arm movements (of course, this varies depending on the exact way someone uses their mouse, but there is always more upper arm movement using the mouse than pressing keys, especially if you can hover directly over them like the ZX keys in osu).
Like i said, i agree with you. With a competitive mindset, i see little to no advantages in using mouse only. key here is 'dependent of course on set goals'. If someone wants to just have fun clicking circles at quite a low level (or high, doesnt really matter much), the 'getting used to period' may be enough to prevent someone making the change. I think our points dont really contradict eachother.
Something else in you post caught my attention though. You mention doing continuous with 2 hands instead of one is 'better' (better in what regard? i dont really get what you mean). This may be a bit of a stretch, but if we apply this to fingers, can we say alternating is 'better' then single tapping? I don't really know, but since i practice alternating more, my singletapping has increased, and i'm much calmer during rythmically harder parts. Also, my piano teacher always mentioned that playing the same note repeatedly with different fingers was rythmically more stable then with one finger (here i assume that piano technique is similar to tapping technique, which isn't really true, but w/e). I'm eager to hear opinions on it.
On July 20 2013 06:42 Yorbon wrote: Like i said, i agree with you. With a competitive mindset, i see little to no advantages in using mouse only. key here is 'dependent of course on set goals'. If someone wants to just have fun clicking circles at quite a low level (or high, doesnt really matter much), the 'getting used to period' may be enough to prevent someone making the change. I think our points dont really contradict eachother.
I see what you mean. I basically ignore the casual user case, simply because if an otherwise casual player is asking "how do I get better" or is considering making a change because it's supposedly better, that's enough to count as competitive on the lowest level. Essentially if you're a casual player, whether something is objectively better than what you're doing, it doesn't matter specifically because you're a casual player.
On July 20 2013 06:42 Yorbon wrote: Something else in you post caught my attention though. You mention doing continuous with 2 hands instead of one is 'better' (better in what regard? i dont really get what you mean).
I was to some degree using that post as a bit of an information dump. The thing about 2 hands being better than I mentioned was a study done in the 80's before computer mice were widespread, which involved users with little to no mouse experience performing a task where they either have to use a single mouse to control 2 things, or they have to use 2 pointing devices/cursors on screen to simultaneously control the task.
The actual task was that they had a square that they had to position correctly and scale (resize) correctly. With 1 mouse you're forced to do it sequentially, with two pointing objects you can use one hand to move the square and he other to resize it at the same time.
It shows the obvious answer that doing 2 things at the same time is faster than doing them one after the other.
On July 20 2013 06:42 Yorbon wrote: This may be a bit of a stretch, but if we apply this to fingers, can we say alternating is 'better' then single tapping? I don't really know, but since i practice alternating more, my singletapping has increased, and i'm much calmer during rythmically harder parts. Also, my piano teacher always mentioned that playing the same note repeatedly with different fingers was rythmically more stable then with one finger (here i assume that piano technique is similar to tapping technique, which isn't really true, but w/e). I'm eager to hear opinions on it.
I still haven't found a scientific paper that specifically confirms that separating a sequential task into separate simultaneous tasks does in fact lead to less cognitive load.
I'm not sure if that argument would actually apply to alternating vs singletapping. I do believe that alternating is better. Alternating ideally halves the speed that your finger has to move at. I don't have a citation on hand, but it's been mentioned a few times that the faster a person must perform an action, the less accurate that action becomes, and failures become more common.
However, the specific idea I was saying about separating the task of aiming and clicking between arms is different from alternating vs singletapping.
In the idea of splitting the actions between arms, I'm referring to something more fundamental to the task as well. Splitting the brain functions of the two actions. What I mean is that I believe separating the actions between both arms makes it possible to think of the actions of aiming and pressing the key as two separate continuous tasks, rather than 2 sequential tasks.
Instead of having to think about finding the next circle and aiming, and then make a conscious switch to the though process of timing when to click, you essentially break it into 2 tasks that are always running in parallel. Aiming needs to be done when you see a new circle, but figuring out the timing of when to tap the keyboard can be predicted by watching the circle appear and watching the approach circle while you're still aiming.
In that way, you are no longer forcing the calculations involved with predicting when to click to happen only after you've aimed, but allowing them to occur while you're still aiming.
SC2 analogy: Instead of queuing up two marines at a rax, you've got a reactor on it and produce two at once.
Differences in skill level may be better understood with a contrast of beginners and advanced performers, and how they utilize information to formulate behavioral responses. A beginning learner may not know which situational cues are relevant or irrelevant, and process several cues as individual inputs. This would result in an increased short-term or working memory load and a decreased capacity to process additional information that might be present and useful, for litte organization of the information has taken place. The beginner would probably be unaware of how to use the appropriate control processes for the transmission of information through the hypothesized mechanisms of the human system. Therefore, a motor response based on the selective use of much available information would be erratic since the manner in which these cues were processed would require that they each be retrieved separately. In contrast, a highly skilled performer could abstract the commonality among the inputs and employ an encoding strategy for processing this information.
Encoding refers to a transformation of information from a general to a more abstract representation to facilitate storage and retrieval. Since the cues would be processed as a unit, more capacity becomes available to deal with new stimuli which can be used to update any response requirements. Consequently, this performer will emit efficient motor behaviors because of the quality of the encoding of the cues, and the more efficient retrieval of those cues (cf. Tulving & Thomson, 1973). Thus, the cognitive processes which a learner applies to the processing of information can account for many of the differences observed between skill levels.
I can tell you that the reason I am able to read the really insane beatmaps in both mania and standard is because I can look at a pattern of notes as a whole pattern, as opposed to single individual notes allowing me to store a "chunk of time" in memory, instead of only looking at the next note one at a time.
On July 21 2013 23:24 Tankz123 wrote: @ the last thing - if you look at the pattern of squares, you're gonna have a bad time.
wat
Let me translate.
If you see a square and consider the four notes as a whole pattern, people usually develop a circular movement over those four notes, since that feels more natural. The problem with that is that it gets significantly harder to judge where your cursor is at any given time during the pattern.
The advised, yet more unnatural and thus usually more difficult, approach is to either consider the squares four single notes just placed on the board, but that requires a very specific way of viewing the notes. This gets easier when playing on high AR since you might not even get to see the full square beforehand, but it is incredibly hard to do on lower AR.
The midway solution is to consider the square as 2 separate lines of 2 notes. So you now have a problem of doing 2 line jumps, rather than a square pattern. Now this sounds a little fishy as you still have to jump between the two lines, but it is all about the mental approach of the pattern, so it's hard to explain logically if you catch my drift.
Ok I see exactly what you mean here, and I definitely understand the pitfall associated with what you describe. That's actually a good point to bring up.
First off, viewing patterns like that is hierarchical. That is, a square can be said to be made up of 4 single notes, 2 vertical (or horizontal) lines of two notes, or some other combination involving lines and individual notes. Similarly, a line can be said to be made up of 2 (or more) individual notes. Patterns are made up of individuals as well as all the patterns that those individual objects create.
Beyond that aspect, you're forgetting that these hierarchical groups also contain the timing information as well. In standard osu the way I mentally approach reading is to look at the current state of the screen as a single hierarchical model including mouse position, current target, next target, overall current visible pattern (and the subsequent sub-patterns) etc.
Because I use mouse+ZX, mentally I'm no longer thinking of playing osu as involving the sequential steps of "aim, then click" either. I'm processing clicking as an independent action controlled entirely by the visual and auditory cues presented by the current game state. Similarly, I'm processing the aiming as a completely separate mental process where the goal requirement is that I aim properly before times runs out for each note. In this case even if I am incorrectly, chances are I will still actually hit the timing for the note correctly.
Because I've reached a certain point in the learning process these mental functions are both relegated to mostly subconscious action, leaving my conscious thought available for high-level feedback analysis and prediction functions such as attempting to predict things like speed changes and other sudden changes.
I was also referring more to how I approach reading osu!mania than standard osu when I made that comment, but it's honestly not terribly different from how I mentally approach osu!mania as well. The hierarchical "chunking" (which is one of the actual terms for combining single individual things into a single mental construct in order to facilitate better memory use) applies to patterns in both modes readily. Chunking does not forbid viewing the construct in another light, such as individually examining the components of the chunk, it simply refers to the process of generating and using the construct as a whole.
In the case of the square, where it is more likely to be easier to examine it as a series of lines, you are freely available to make that switch in mental representation... The quote I used actually accurately describes the fact that a player using a naive "full square approach" is probably worse than a player who recognizes the square patter and is able to adjust their internal representation to better handle that case.
Wow holy shit. So someone in this thread a few days ago recommended I dim the background and it was great.
I was playing an IU song and there was 1 hit circle that I fucking missed everytime and I restarted like 100 times in a row i swear always missing it. then I dimmed the background and noticed the hit circle dimmed too.
The fucking asshole guy put the hit circle in the music video and made it play the miss sound so I never was actually missing and I was restarting for no reason.
On July 27 2013 02:36 Highwinds wrote: Wow holy shit. So someone in this thread a few days ago recommended I dim the background and it was great.
I was playing an IU song and there was 1 hit circle that I fucking missed everytime and I restarted like 100 times in a row i swear always missing it. then I dimmed the background and noticed the hit circle dimmed too.
The fucking asshole guy put the hit circle in the music video and made it play the miss sound so I never was actually missing and I was restarting for no reason.
Wow summer holiday sure helps getting better. I recently decided to start playing with mods instead of nomodding everything. Right now I'm starting to pass slow maps but yesterday I suddenly felt my hands improving and I made a couple of great scores. I wonder when I'll beat those...
Too bad I didnt' believe I'd pass this so I still had NoFail on sadly
So, this happened. Somehow this score triggered an improvement in my technique. Combined with the training on converted BMS maps which has helped reading chords, I've just jumped in skill (pretty much like what happened to yuugo).
More videos may be incoming, because I keep making awesome scores.
Hey everyone thanks for doing some research, I'll have to read through all the studies, posts, and other such things to better understand the issue. I really love osu, if anyone wants to play my name is Mr_LoserAssFace. I normally play a few hours a day. I usually play insane songs.
EPT
