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Lalalaland34510 Posts
On February 18 2011 05:10 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 05:02 Weken wrote:On February 18 2011 04:47 LaughingTulkas wrote:On February 18 2011 04:44 Weken wrote:On February 18 2011 04:37 LaughingTulkas wrote:
Just creating isk out of thin air is something in general bad for the game, and CCP tries to minimize this. Missions? Rats? They two big ways people make money, also mining is basically like this (bring minerals into the economy whiout anything going out (appart from the miners time)). Isk has to be created somehow otherwise everyonw would run out of money as when i ship gets destroyed all its isk value is destroyed. Right, they are there, but CCP doesn't really like isk faucets as new ideas is what I meant. Sorry, should have been more clear. But the isk, once created, stays in the market. The minerals get destroyed. Ok i see- but minerals get traded for isk, which then cant be taken out of the market. Basically the EVE market is slowly inflating, i think that if you look at the prices for things, you can see this. But im not sure. The EVE market isn't inflating. PLEX prices have stayed relatively stable. Drakes a few months ago were cheaper than they were when I started playing. If there's long-term inflation, CCP will eliminate it. I'm pretty sure that's one of their main goals when maintaining the economy.
PLEX prices are dropping back down actually, from hitting 380m each around december back down to about 320m now
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ive been told trits up to 3.15 already. \o/
Also money is removed thorugh market taxes, contract taxes, repair service, insurances that time out, clone upgrades and LP store.
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On February 18 2011 02:43 TurpinOS wrote:I dont see what coping with highsec has to do, I am very proud of you for killing players that have no clue what theyre doing, and if ''pvp'' for you is sitting in front of a station with 4+ neutral reps on batphone, so be it, but thats just your definition of it.
I know the concept of leaving this safety for a place where people can actually shoot your reps is probably hard to understand for you, but believe it or not, some like it.
Just a heads up, you come across as an asshole right here.
Let me know how else I'm supposed to fight you blobby wankers when you won't leave the station and I'm the only one in the corp. Also, two former maelstroms come to mind...
And FYI, you guys are totally free to shoot my reps any time you think you are up to it. That's what that big flashing indicator means, bro.
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Dear LaughingTulkas:
You definitely shouldn't try to set yourself up as an EVE expert. Or an economic one. It's clear you haven't spent any significant time studying economics, at least not the parts that relate to EVE. Tofu's first response was right on the money. You should've stopped there.
For one, you keep mixing up your terms (lowsec and nullsec are completely different, and we're only talking about one of them). For another, you have a pretty tenuous grasp of how money and objects enter and leave the game. For instance:
On February 18 2011 04:37 LaughingTulkas wrote:
This isn't exactly true. Just creating isk out of thin air is something in general bad for the game, and CCP tries to minimize this. Once the isk is created, there's no way for it to be removed (outside of plexes). However, minerals, while they can be exchanged for isk, are in fact removed from the game whenever something is blown up. So the net effect of adding minerals and adding straight isk is not the same.
I don't want to correct someone who plays the game, but in this instance I think you are incorrect.
It's hard to say where I should start on this one. To begin with, ISK is removed from the game constantly: through LP store purchases like faction ammo, faction ships, implants, etc., market and contract broker fees and sales taxes, NPC taxes, NPC seeded item purchases on the market, fines, war fees, sovereignty fees, office rental fees, planetary interaction, manufacturing and researching facility fees, station docking fees, CSPA charges, corporation and alliance creation and maintenance fees, locator agent charges... to scratch the surface. Secondly, purchasing PLEX with isk is not a transaction between the player and CCP. The bulk of the isk is only transferred to the seller; the only isk destroyed in such a transaction is through sales taxes and broker fees. These things listed above are the standard by which the value of isk is set in the game's economy. The difficulty of acquiring isk through bounties and mission rewards is balanced against its usefulness for purchasing +4 implants, basically.
Minerals work much the same. They are produced in very few ways -- reprocessed loot from NPCs, drone poop, player mining, and hauler spawns. The majority of t1 minerals in the game come from the first two. Providing a passive mineral income like this thread describes is a very large change to the mineral market, and could drastically change relative values of items on the market. There are currently PRECIOUS few ways for materials to be produced without direct player involvement every step of the way, largely in Planetary Industry and Moon mining. And both of those require regular player intervention to keep them actually producing anything, even assuming zero interference from other players.
edit: the big issue here is that every last lowsec system is going to be owned by someone at any given time; that is a constant, MASSIVE influx of minerals into the economy that completely disregards player activity. and just as isk has faucets and sinks, so do minerals; and people aren't suddenly just going to start losing more ships just because there are lots of minerals lying around. it would get to the point where nobody ever mined anymore, before that happened.
also, suicide ganks would be so cheap.
TL;DR almost everything you have said or implied about EVE's economy, either in materials or ISK, is wrong.
Love,
Widders
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I wish you'd show me where I messing up nullsec and lowsec, I am well aware of their differences and do not in any way mean to mix them up. Nullsec = 0.0, siv for the alliances, no concords, no gate guns, etc. I don't think I messed this up anywhere, but if I did, it is simply a typo.
edit: I do mention nullsec alliances because ppl were saying they would all crash lowsec if this sort of change happened. I'm not seeing any mistakes on my part here so far.
As for the economy, I think the orignal point was lost. I was saying that adding minerals in an EBU should keep the economy stable because the extra minerals in theory would be blown up with the extra PvP taking place over the EBU's. If the EBU's simply gave isk, this would not be the case.
That's what I was trying to get across, does that make more sense? I guess it got convoluted because the original point about the EBU got lost. I wasn't meaning to make general statements about the entire economy, just how this change would impact it.
I'm not trying to disrespect you, I love the Hatchery, and following its adventures. I follow the nullsec a lot more, but it's been interesting to learn about lowsec too. I'm sorry if I offended you in any way.
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+ Show Spoiler +On February 18 2011 05:47 Widdershins wrote:On February 18 2011 02:43 TurpinOS wrote:I dont see what coping with highsec has to do, I am very proud of you for killing players that have no clue what theyre doing, and if ''pvp'' for you is sitting in front of a station with 4+ neutral reps on batphone, so be it, but thats just your definition of it.
I know the concept of leaving this safety for a place where people can actually shoot your reps is probably hard to understand for you, but believe it or not, some like it. Just a heads up, you come across as an asshole right here. Let me know how else I'm supposed to fight you blobby wankers when you won't leave the station and I'm the only one in the corp. Also, two former maelstroms come to mind... And FYI, you guys are totally free to shoot my reps any time you think you are up to it. That's what that big flashing indicator means, bro. ----- Dear LaughingTulkas: You definitely shouldn't try to set yourself up as an EVE expert. Or an economic one. It's clear you haven't spent any significant time studying economics, at least not the parts that relate to EVE. Tofu's first response was right on the money. You should've stopped there. For one, you keep mixing up your terms (lowsec and nullsec are completely different, and we're only talking about one of them). For another, you have a pretty tenuous grasp of how money and objects enter and leave the game. For instance: On February 18 2011 04:37 LaughingTulkas wrote:
This isn't exactly true. Just creating isk out of thin air is something in general bad for the game, and CCP tries to minimize this. Once the isk is created, there's no way for it to be removed (outside of plexes). However, minerals, while they can be exchanged for isk, are in fact removed from the game whenever something is blown up. So the net effect of adding minerals and adding straight isk is not the same.
I don't want to correct someone who plays the game, but in this instance I think you are incorrect. It's hard to say where I should start on this one. To begin with, ISK is removed from the game constantly: through LP store purchases like faction ammo, faction ships, implants, etc., market and contract broker fees and sales taxes, NPC taxes, NPC seeded item purchases on the market, fines, war fees, sovereignty fees, office rental fees, planetary interaction, manufacturing and researching facility fees, station docking fees, CSPA charges, corporation and alliance creation and maintenance fees, locator agent charges... to scratch the surface. Secondly, purchasing PLEX with isk is not a transaction between the player and CCP. The bulk of the isk is only transferred to the seller; the only isk destroyed in such a transaction is through sales taxes and broker fees. These things listed above are the standard by which the value of isk is set in the game's economy. The difficulty of acquiring isk through bounties and mission rewards is balanced against its usefulness for purchasing +4 implants, basically. Minerals work much the same. They are produced in very few ways -- reprocessed loot from NPCs, drone poop, player mining, and hauler spawns. The majority of t1 minerals in the game come from the first two. Providing a passive mineral income like this thread describes is a very large change to the mineral market, and could drastically change relative values of items on the market. There are currently PRECIOUS few ways for materials to be produced without direct player involvement every step of the way, largely in Planetary Industry and Moon mining. And both of those require regular player intervention to keep them actually producing anything, even assuming zero interference from other players. edit: the big issue here is that every last lowsec system is going to be owned by someone at any given time; that is a constant, MASSIVE influx of minerals into the economy that completely disregards player activity. and just as isk has faucets and sinks, so do minerals; and people aren't suddenly just going to start losing more ships just because there are lots of minerals lying around. it would get to the point where nobody ever mined anymore, before that happened.
also, suicide ganks would be so cheap.TL;DR almost everything you have said or implied about EVE's economy, either in materials or ISK, is wrong. Love, Widders
^^quote^^
I am finding that your posts lack a level of respect of people who have been on these forums for much longer than you, who only has 4 posts, so could you please stop bashing the corp and other people. Yes this TL community accepts people who want to make valid contrbutions, and your contributions are valid, however the manner in which you post here is starting to annoy me.
E.G you have made some comments which have had the sole perpose of saying that you are better than other people. Also the way in which you post about this corp, and people in these forums is adding a bad tone to this forum.
I am asking you nicely to change your tone and the way you treat people on TL, and also to look at this, which im pretty sure you havn't done already Our Rules
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Lalalaland34510 Posts
................................I'm gonna ignore whatever other bullshit is going on in this discussion. I'm just going to say I've noticed that widders is being quite civil in his posts here with very few provocative statements (and it's up to you whether to bite or not) and mostly quite good discussion
Let me know how else I'm supposed to fight you blobby wankers when you won't leave the station and I'm the only one in the corp. Also, two former maelstroms come to mind...
And FYI, you guys are totally free to shoot my reps any time you think you are up to it. That's what that big flashing indicator means, bro.
How else are we supposed to engage you solo when the biggest thing 90% of the corp can fly for pvp are BC's :<
And yeah shooting reps when they're at 0 on station doesn't really help ._.
on a side note PAPER FINISHED YESSSSSSSS
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United States44451 Posts
On February 18 2011 05:47 Widdershins wrote:
And FYI, you guys are totally free to shoot my reps any time you think you are up to it. That's what that big flashing indicator means, bro.
They sit at 0 on a station....
What you do works and if you enjoy it then by all means do it but I prefer low/nullsec personally.
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On February 18 2011 06:22 Weken wrote:Our Rules
I read the rules straight through first thing. You seem sure of a lot of things.
And I've never said I was better than anyone; maybe that was merely your own impression. I'll take it as a compliment.
LaughingTulkas, the point here is that people aren't going to lose a battlecruiser in every lowsec system every hour for the rest of EVE (edit: e.g. the amount of pvp stimulated by a change like this could not concievably counteract the amount of materials injected into the market by these changes). The amount of minerals these guys want to dump into the game is some horrifying, double-digit percentage of the current production; even disregarding that they want to do it passively and without any basis on player activity (if anything player activity would LOWER the amount of minerals given), this would completely skew the market and the game in extremely harsh ways that, by the end, nobody would want.
And I'm not offended by or seeking to offend anyone. Just explaining.
Addendum:
On February 18 2011 06:34 KwarK wrote:
They sit at 0 on a station....
What you do works and if you enjoy it then by all means do it but I prefer low/nullsec personally.
That's nothing to keep you from jamming/shooting/docking them up. Even counting my temporary buddies I was outnumbered something like 11 to 4, with your jams and heavy tackle.
Nullsec PVP is different from hisec in that friends and foes are obvious to tell apart, and ships and equipment are relatively scarce -- if you see someone in one ship they're not likely to show up in a different one. And the space is otherwise completely empty, devoid of hisec's neutrals that confuse, obfuscate, interfere, scout, and assist in combat. The only thing nullsec has that's harder to deal with than what's in hisec is bubbles, and the fact that everyone roams in larger fleets for protection from marauding players.
Lowsec is somewhere between, with blurry confusing distinctions between neutrals and people who might shoot you under varying circumstances, but it is EMPTY. The only real issue to manage is GCC flags and security status.
Next time you see an angry player go on about how they are involved in a nullsec alliance that does lots of PVP and can whup someone else's ass in pussy hisec, laugh at them.
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On February 18 2011 05:47 Widdershins wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 02:43 TurpinOS wrote:I dont see what coping with highsec has to do, I am very proud of you for killing players that have no clue what theyre doing, and if ''pvp'' for you is sitting in front of a station with 4+ neutral reps on batphone, so be it, but thats just your definition of it.
I know the concept of leaving this safety for a place where people can actually shoot your reps is probably hard to understand for you, but believe it or not, some like it. Just a heads up, you come across as an asshole right here. Let me know how else I'm supposed to fight you blobby wankers when you won't leave the station and I'm the only one in the corp. Also, two former maelstroms come to mind... And FYI, you guys are totally free to shoot my reps any time you think you are up to it. That's what that big flashing indicator means, bro. -----
Just a heads up, I intented to come across as an asshole 
I was not suggesting a different way of fighting us, I was mainly arguing for the fact that I personnally think its hard to categorize what you do as PeeVeePee (at least, lets just say that other words come to my mind first).
Saying what we do is blob tho is one of the most retarded statements Ive ever heard though, you wardec a corporation that is pretty much all living in the same system and come sit in that said system, what do you expect us to do, undock our low SP pilots one at a time so your killboard looks better ?
The fact that youre the only one in corp is rather moot, since lets face it, dark horse is on a leash right behind you all the time (cept when you decide to shoot then and concord yourself apparently). But yes, ill give you huge prop for having neutral probing alts, neutral repping alts, and all that faggotry in order to kill people that are clueless/greedy (see former maelstroms).
Also, id like to thank you for your FYI, I never knew that you cant shoot reps at any time.
(Expected a lot from you, but thats certainly stationfaggingthinking at its best !
Edit : was browsing through your KB to understand how to become pro, and I noticed you used to be part of the ORPHANAGEMASTERPVPALLIANCE, guess I dont have to ask myself anymore questions)
Love
CALLUM
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On February 18 2011 05:47 Widdershins wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 02:43 TurpinOS wrote:I dont see what coping with highsec has to do, I am very proud of you for killing players that have no clue what theyre doing, and if ''pvp'' for you is sitting in front of a station with 4+ neutral reps on batphone, so be it, but thats just your definition of it.
I know the concept of leaving this safety for a place where people can actually shoot your reps is probably hard to understand for you, but believe it or not, some like it. Just a heads up, I am an asshole right here. Let me know how else I'm supposed to fight you skilled pilots when I won't leave the station and I'm the only one in the corp. And FYI, you guys are totally free to shoot my reps any time you think you are up to it. That's what that big flashing indicator means. Love, Widders
Try moving out to 0.0/low sec where you can fight those of us who actually enjoy pvp if you want a real fight. Until then stop complaining about blobbing. You being the only one in corp doesn't matter when the hatchery clearly can't break your rr and if we get a fleet that can do it you dock up and never fights or gets concorded. Stop complaining about us not wanting to fight on your terms.
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Hyrule19269 Posts
Widder is contributing a lot more than previous WTs have. If it weren't for the fact that when I warped to 0 on a station and hit dock and what actually happened is I hit warp to 0 and I warped to 2k or something and hit dock and he podded me (I fucking hate you) I'd say he's a pretty cool guy.
That having been said, Laughing, you can follow all you like, but it's actually impossible to understand how EVE's economy works without actually playing the game. People like Caelum spend all day F5'ing contracts and others are manufacturing things and they basically know the costs of everything. They can shed far more light on this than I can, but basically, adding a random passive faucet of minerals can only hurt. No amount of theorycrafting can change that. And trust me, Trit jumping from 2.12 to 3.2 was a MASSIVE deal, even going up to 2.5 was huge. If it suddenly crashes due to a bunch of EBUs it will be felt.
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On February 18 2011 06:48 tofucake wrote:
Widder is contributing a lot more than previous WTs have. If it weren't for the fact that when I warped to 0 on a station and hit dock and what actually happened is I hit warp to 0 and I warped to 2k or something and hit dock and he podded me (I fucking hate you) I'd say he's a pretty cool guy.
That having been said, Laughing, you can follow all you like, but it's actually impossible to understand how EVE's economy works without actually playing the game. People like Caelum spend all day F5'ing contracts and others are manufacturing things and they basically know the costs of everything. They can shed far more light on this than I can, but basically, adding a random passive faucet of minerals can only hurt. No amount of theorycrafting can change that. And trust me, Trit jumping from 2.12 to 3.2 was a MASSIVE deal, even going up to 2.5 was huge. If it suddenly crashes due to a bunch of EBUs it will be felt.
I actually dont know anything about the eve market except for the price of faction items (im not even interested in ''why are they changing'', so yeah, probably cant let you know why.
The trit jumping was following those 12 titan losses tho if im not wrong. (PROMARKETGUYOPINION)
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So does that man im invited to join TL
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Would 12 titan losses really increse the price of trit by 50%? If you look at all the trit sold in EVE im pretty sure that the ammount needed to make 12 titans is relitvly small. However i may be mistaken as i dont know the actuall figures.
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Lalalaland34510 Posts
On February 18 2011 07:02 Zer0 Kool wrote:So does that man im invited to join TL
tbh if you don't be a dick, even kwark won't ban you lol
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United States44451 Posts
On February 18 2011 07:02 Zer0 Kool wrote:So does that man im invited to join TL
It's a public forum. Behave yourself and you're welcome.
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On February 18 2011 06:51 TurpinOS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 06:48 tofucake wrote:
Widder is contributing a lot more than previous WTs have. If it weren't for the fact that when I warped to 0 on a station and hit dock and what actually happened is I hit warp to 0 and I warped to 2k or something and hit dock and he podded me (I fucking hate you) I'd say he's a pretty cool guy.
That having been said, Laughing, you can follow all you like, but it's actually impossible to understand how EVE's economy works without actually playing the game. People like Caelum spend all day F5'ing contracts and others are manufacturing things and they basically know the costs of everything. They can shed far more light on this than I can, but basically, adding a random passive faucet of minerals can only hurt. No amount of theorycrafting can change that. And trust me, Trit jumping from 2.12 to 3.2 was a MASSIVE deal, even going up to 2.5 was huge. If it suddenly crashes due to a bunch of EBUs it will be felt. I actually dont know anything about the eve market except for the price of faction items (im not even interested in ''why are they changing'', so yeah, probably cant let you know why. The trit jumping was following those 12 titan losses tho if im not wrong. (PROMARKETGUYOPINION)
you mean those 19 titans and 14 moms))
edit: looked up the br and fixed numbers
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damn this is gonna be tough but do'able me thinks
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
Quick note: trit prices spiking might not be all that relevant for the economy (I don't know cause I'm not in-game.)
The price of individual minerals isn't important. What's important is the so-called "mineral basket", which dictates the cost of production. Normally when trit increases, other mins will decrease at the same time to compensate. But in some situations the mineral basket as a whole will rise or fall, changing the cost of production.
There are theoretical reasons why this might happen, and I once saw someone make a lot of isk because he predicted a spike in the mineral basket, bet people on it (offering them odds), and saw his prediction come true.
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On February 18 2011 06:44 Johnny Business wrote:
Try moving out to 0.0/low sec where you can fight those of us who actually enjoy pvp if you want a real fight. Until then stop complaining about blobbing. You being the only one in corp doesn't matter when the hatchery clearly can't break your rr and if we get a fleet that can do it you dock up and never fights or gets concorded. Stop complaining about us not wanting to fight on your terms.
There it is: TRY MOVING TO WHERE PRO PEOPLE ARE AND NOT HISEC WHERE WEENIES ARE
Someone says it every time. Bro, you even brought all your best PVPers out to fight me. If you didn't, that's not my fault. So far, I haven't had to go to you, and that's the way it should be.
I don't know what I said that you somehow interpreted as complaining. I think this is fun as hell, you guys are the ones who have people whining about how I don't fight you normally. When I get a magical cloning machine that can make ten of me appear in the game, I'll do that. 'Till then, lean forward and try to witness some unfamiliar tactics without condemning them just because they're new to you.
<3 tofu, GF, etc. My recommendation is to always have an insta-dock bookmark for important stations, and if you don't, be ready to warp the right the hell back out when you land two accursed kilometers away in a pod.
I am not going to grace Callum's abhorrent post with a response.
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EPT
