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On February 18 2011 02:09 Weken wrote:
We are moving to get away from gate guns and stuff, so we will be fighting in null-sec not low sec. Meaning that low-sec stuff wont effect us as much, IMO. Yes there will be some fighting in low-sec but most of it will be in null.
Or that is what i think is happning, what would be the point in moving away from emol to fight in low-sec, as there is a low-sec systems right next to emol.
Is it too hard to cope in hisec for some reason? And even in lowsec, now? Everything is too hard, so you're going where PVP is easy but the blobs are large?
Did the corp leadership consult the players about this? You all seem pretty much in the dark.
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Lalalaland34510 Posts
Weken calm down about the move, it's nowhere near finalised or anything 
I think that reductions in sec status hits would be a VERY large incentive for anyone wanting to claim lowsec space. It makes one of the biggest challenges with claiming lowsec - defending your space - much more feasible.
Although I would love sec hits to be smaller, I wonder why you think it's going to be such a large incentive? The way I see it, people either decide to fuck around in low and become a pirate, or choose to simply not be involved with it, or a slight medium based on other factors. I don't imagine 'omg I don't want to lose sec status' to be a particularly big factor when a player chooses whether or not to go into lowsec and shoot shit.
With the way it's written out in that post, nullsec alliances would be ALL OVER station-system lowsec, because you can make HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of isk per month just by holding shitty lowsec systems continuously. The only difficulty for them here is that with only a 1 hour timer, it would be a ridiculously trying task to actually keep a system for more than a few hours at a time, and claiming lowsec sov would end up being comprised of short "ops" where you give up the space when you go home a couple hours later. It's really a very bad system.
It should only reduce sec status hits and gategun aggro for that specific corporation in that specific system (say, by 75 or 80%). So if you took ownership of a lowsec system, and someone retarded is missioning there, you can kill them without a huge security status loss. Killrights and GCC mechanics would still remain the same.
Rather than just plain giving players a stupid crapton of money for owning the system, why not just make complexes in lowsec space more profitable. Find a happy medium between hisec complexes/missioning and nullsec. More drug-related sites, more hacking/archaeology plexes maybe, just more money in general, but not as much as NPC null.
Fair enough, I see your points here...but I imagine it'll be extremely difficult to find that medium where people will actually choose lowsec over highsec (safe but low rewards) or nullsec (max pvp but high rewards). People would really choose one or the other.
Arghhhh I'd love to put more thought into this (even if it's on the TL forums and probably will never be read by eve devs) but I've got a paper to finish 
On February 18 2011 02:20 Widdershins wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 02:09 Weken wrote:
We are moving to get away from gate guns and stuff, so we will be fighting in null-sec not low sec. Meaning that low-sec stuff wont effect us as much, IMO. Yes there will be some fighting in low-sec but most of it will be in null.
Or that is what i think is happning, what would be the point in moving away from emol to fight in low-sec, as there is a low-sec systems right next to emol. Is it too hard to cope in hisec for some reason? And even in lowsec, now? Everything is too hard, so you're going where PVP is easy but the blobs are large? Did the corp leadership consult the players about this? You all seem pretty much in the dark.
Nah, it's not for those reasons. And none of these plans are extremely fleshed out, I think weken's just getting a little too excited haha
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On February 18 2011 02:20 Widdershins wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 02:09 Weken wrote:
We are moving to get away from gate guns and stuff, so we will be fighting in null-sec not low sec. Meaning that low-sec stuff wont effect us as much, IMO. Yes there will be some fighting in low-sec but most of it will be in null.
Or that is what i think is happning, what would be the point in moving away from emol to fight in low-sec, as there is a low-sec systems right next to emol. Is it too hard to cope in hisec for some reason? And even in lowsec, now? Everything is too hard, so you're going where PVP is easy but the blobs are large? Did the corp leadership consult the players about this? You all seem pretty much in the dark.
Some people of our corp are jumping on a wagon a bit too fast, but that doesnt change the fact that this has nothing to do with you.
I dont see what coping with highsec has to do, I am very proud of you for killing players that have no clue what theyre doing, and if ''pvp'' for you is sitting in front of a station with 4+ neutral reps on batphone, so be it, but thats just your definition of it.
I know the concept of leaving this safety for a place where people can actually shoot your reps is probably hard to understand for you, but believe it or not, some like it.
I dont get where youre taking the fact that lowsec is hard, I think its pretty obvious that weve been doing fairly decently (cept me hURP) in aralgrund, but the fact of the matter is that sec status hit are generally pretty annoying, and so is the fact of having to cope with gateguns.
Nullsec is that place where the only question i have to ask myself before shooting someone is, ''will i get murdered by said ship'', and yes, I enjoy it.
Also, to weken and anyone else, lets stop with the bullshitting around, a full move of the corp to nullsec wont happen, this corp is dug way too deep in the mission mentality.
(Ive been hanging around in Curse for a while, and not a single person (cept johnny) have moved over. If anyone wants to come fuck around with me tho feel free to do so.)
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so me and serg decided to go roamin
hte roam was composed of 4 parts:
1. OH LOOK DEAD LOWSEC SURE IS NICE OUT HERE
2. i jumped into uemon (didnt notice it as the station with all the russian fun going on beforehand) and ohay 270 local. I spammed johnny's all-purpose corp approved russian greeting a few times and then local started dropping down to around 40. Me and serg thought we could maybe get some FITAN in here but no such luck, also russians have alot of supercaps.
3. ev0ke trolling in akora. Killing dem cyno alts over and over while trashing, reusing an old tactic from our necrophiliacs war:
[16:05:18] The tHornton > gf (alphaing cyno alt on station lolol)
[16:06:12] Future Unknown > gf gentlemen, guess we just had the upper hand today(alphaing cyno alt on station lolol)
[16:23:20] The tHornton > gf(alphaing cyno alt on station lolol)
at that point we had some random highsec gate hijinks with a vagabond a drake and a stabber but ultimately nothing came of it.
[16:32:55] The tHornton > come 2 protec ur cyno alts? Lol u must be sooo mad steaming w/ fury ant angur ur autismal butthurt is crying out even in spaec i can here ur screems butupsetlevel 10/10
[16:41:27] The tHornton > gf(alphaing cyno alt on station lolol)
[16:41:38] Future Unknown > gf(alphaing random poor unaffiliated bantam just doing some probing on grid with us while we ganked a cyno alt on a station lolol)
[16:47:34] The tHornton > gf(alphaing cyno alt on station lolol)
4. Finally, the roam entirely broken down at that point and w/ me and serg just lolololing about i get tackled by a fleet of stealth bombers with a rapier cause i was afk sat on a planet (pro). Killed a hound and a purifier before xploding myself. I fucked up here and called serg in way too late or we could have easily wiped their entire gang, guess im just too used to riding solo. o well still killed more than the cane was worth. left that lovely lot a nice message, then went back to emol in my pod . ps serg got all the loot 
[16:49:48] The tHornton > u buthurt upSAt that i kild all ur cynofrags so u bring ur noobblob and still lost ships ??? its not problam the nc pay me 20x the price of my lost ship for stoping ur logistic operasinos
lossmail:
http://teamliquid.killmail.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=8917449
hound: http://teamliquid.killmail.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=8917303
purifier: http://teamliquid.killmail.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=8917295
bantam: http://teamliquid.killmail.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=8917279
cynoalt #1: http://teamliquid.killmail.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=8917077
cynoalt #2: http://teamliquid.killmail.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=8917227
cynoalt #3: http://teamliquid.killmail.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=8917274
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On February 18 2011 02:25 Firebolt145 wrote:Weken calm down about the move, it's nowhere near finalised or anything
Well i cant go on EVE in the week so i pretty much dont really know what is happning, i just know that we may move sometime, and it wont be to sudden blah blah, i will find out more in the weekend.
P.S - im home with no school all of next week so im gunna be on EVE lots, which will be fun.
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United States44451 Posts
On February 18 2011 02:20 Widdershins wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 02:09 Weken wrote:
We are moving to get away from gate guns and stuff, so we will be fighting in null-sec not low sec. Meaning that low-sec stuff wont effect us as much, IMO. Yes there will be some fighting in low-sec but most of it will be in null.
Or that is what i think is happning, what would be the point in moving away from emol to fight in low-sec, as there is a low-sec systems right next to emol. Is it too hard to cope in hisec for some reason? And even in lowsec, now? Everything is too hard, so you're going where PVP is easy but the blobs are large? Did the corp leadership consult the players about this? You all seem pretty much in the dark.
I have no idea what you're talking about. From what I can gather our complaint is that we're killing too much stuff in lowsec and it's ruining our sec.
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Lalalaland34510 Posts
On February 18 2011 03:18 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 02:20 Widdershins wrote:On February 18 2011 02:09 Weken wrote:
We are moving to get away from gate guns and stuff, so we will be fighting in null-sec not low sec. Meaning that low-sec stuff wont effect us as much, IMO. Yes there will be some fighting in low-sec but most of it will be in null.
Or that is what i think is happning, what would be the point in moving away from emol to fight in low-sec, as there is a low-sec systems right next to emol. Is it too hard to cope in hisec for some reason? And even in lowsec, now? Everything is too hard, so you're going where PVP is easy but the blobs are large? Did the corp leadership consult the players about this? You all seem pretty much in the dark. I have no idea what you're talking about. From what I can gather our complaint is that we're killing too much stuff in lowsec and it's ruining our sec.
That and jesus no one wants to get gategunned even when they have a whole fucking blob against 2-3 bc's ._.
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On February 18 2011 02:02 Widdershins wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 20:55 Firebolt145 wrote:
I haven't read through the post in great detail but keep in mind it doesn't HAVE to be minerals given out, and numbers can be changed easily. The idea behind it is the important bit - some sort of monetary reward for 'owning' a lowsec system.
Although I would love not taking sec status hits, I don't think that would be that big of an incentive for most people. Giving a straight up reward in money or isk just for holding space is very much not in the sense of EVE as it exists today. Holding space is, and should be, an expensive endeavor. I think that reductions in sec status hits would be a VERY large incentive for anyone wanting to claim lowsec space. It makes one of the biggest challenges with claiming lowsec - defending your space - much more feasible. Removing the entire sec status mechanic is absolutely not a solution. Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 23:55 LaughingTulkas wrote:Hmmm, the idea seems to me to be 1. The loss of an EBU is not a great loss, they are not expensive and easy to put up. 2. The potential gain of an EBU should be nice enough for a small alliance to want it, but not enough for 0.0 alliances to really bother. It's not really about importing sov, but just giving small alliances/corps something to fight for, as well as bumping their income so that if they ever want to move to 0.0, they won't get roflstomped or be forced to be a renter/pet. The minerals composition/amount can be modulated by CCP to keep the market stable, or just removed. Gate guns wouldn't just be always against your opponents, just not against you when you deserved it. I dunno, I guess I liked the idea of pirate gangs "taking over" lowsec areas like gangs in New York city. I thought the sec statuts thing was a great idea too. Oh well, I guess most here don't agree or just didn't read the post With the way it's written out in that post, nullsec alliances would be ALL OVER station-system lowsec, because you can make HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of isk per month just by holding shitty lowsec systems continuously. The only difficulty for them here is that with only a 1 hour timer, it would be a ridiculously trying task to actually keep a system for more than a few hours at a time, and claiming lowsec sov would end up being comprised of short "ops" where you give up the space when you go home a couple hours later. It's really a very bad system. Weken: The question is not "how can we make our system INVULNERABLE TO HUGE NULLSEC-BLOBS," it's "how can we make sure that huge nullsec-blobs aren't really any more useful in the new system than they were before." It should only reduce sec status hits and gategun aggro for that specific corporation in that specific system (say, by 75 or 80%). So if you took ownership of a lowsec system, and someone retarded is missioning there, you can kill them without a huge security status loss. Killrights and GCC mechanics would still remain the same. Rather than just plain giving players a stupid crapton of money for owning the system, why not just make complexes in lowsec space more profitable. Find a happy medium between hisec complexes/missioning and nullsec. More drug-related sites, more hacking/archaeology plexes maybe, just more money in general, but not as much as NPC null. edit: In addition, I don't like using a deployable-sov-structure mechanic in lowsec so similar to the way it is in nullsec; I much prefer the idea of a sort of escalating bribe system, almost like some kind of twisted ongoing auction. Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 20:50 Weken wrote:
Surly this wont really effect us once we move. I lol'd.
Look, I don't want to set myself as some sort of eve expert, lol. I've never played, and I'm not an expert. I do love to theorycraft however, and I think eve is one of the more fascinating games.
I think the point is that the EBU makes you slightly more money per hour than ratting or mining, otherwise there not a huge incentive. However, this incentive comes with the catch that it involves PvP! (Which really kinda another incentive).
If you are a huge nullsec alliance, there are a lot of better ways for you to make more isk than parking in lowsec systems, especially since this proposal includes diminishing returns for holding more than one station. The payout gets lower as you take more, so there's no reason for a nullsec alliance to try to hold all of lowsec, it's not worth their time. However, small pirate corps who are only occupy a small space anyway would benefit from them.
It also won't break the economy because it's minerals, not just isk. These will turn into more ships/modules which will hopefully be blown up with the increase of PvP in nullsec. Who knows, this may just attract more people to lowsec and it won't be so empty all the time.
As for the actual fights,
from kugu thread
You probably want low HP but high resists. If you can keep a logi on grid, you can keep it. They have to chase you off to kill it, but once you're gone it's not hard to blow up. Tune it right and you get stuff like ninja logis taking turns popping up, giving it a squirt of shield before warping off, or hero suicide Ospreys, or remote rep Domis with racks of heavy rep drones fending off all comers.
Yes, you run the risk that someone can drop a group of circlejerking carriers on it, but I think the idea is that once you get to the point you can put up and defend a circlejerking carrier blob, there's probably better things to do with your time.
also
from kugu thread
Having it flip constantly is entirely the point. It's not meant to make you money while you're logged out, it's meant to be worth more than ratting/missions if and only if you can PvP at that moment to defend it. It's meant to be profitable to defend and attack with a handful of guys, but worthless for big fleets to bother with, so the cost and payouts have to be below a certain threshold.
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Hyrule19269 Posts
Laughing, you really don't seem to understand EVE's economy. Intruducing more minerals into the game is the same as introducing more isk.
EVE is not the kind of game you can theorycraft with if you've never played.
Hell, even most of the people that do play are awful.
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I think that the EBU shouldn't give much more than less sec status loss when you kill someone in/near your system. Meaning that large null sec corps wont care becasue they dont gain anything, but its a big thing for low sec pvpers / corps because having a low sec status really effects and helps smaller corps.
Also i should COST money to maintain (not alot) because i dont think that people should gain money for holding particular bits of low-sec as its not nessesary because lower sec status loss would mean that lots of people would want to and compete for "ownership" of low-sec. If you gave people enouth money for a T1 BC an hour, they could lose a fleet of ships 2 times a day and still have money left over from "owning" the low-sec.
I keep changing my mind on this idea, mabye its best how it is? i dunno.
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operasinos
good word thornton.
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On February 18 2011 04:28 tofucake wrote:
Laughing, you really don't seem to understand EVE's economy. Intruducing more minerals into the game is the same as introducing more isk.
EVE is not the kind of game you can theorycraft with if you've never played.
Hell, even most of the people that do play are awful.
This isn't exactly true. Just creating isk out of thin air is something in general bad for the game, and CCP tries to minimize this. Once the isk is created, there's no way for it to be removed (outside of plexes). However, minerals, while they can be exchanged for isk, are in fact removed from the game whenever something is blown up. So the net effect of adding minerals and adding straight isk is not the same.
I don't want to correct someone who plays the game, but in this instance I think you are incorrect.
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On February 18 2011 04:37 LaughingTulkas wrote:
Just creating isk out of thin air is something in general bad for the game, and CCP tries to minimize this.
Missions? Rats?
They two big ways people make money, also mining is basically like this (bring minerals into the economy whiout anything going out (appart from the miners time)). Isk has to be created somehow otherwise everyonw would run out of money as when i ship gets destroyed all its isk value is destroyed.
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On February 18 2011 04:44 Weken wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 04:37 LaughingTulkas wrote:
Just creating isk out of thin air is something in general bad for the game, and CCP tries to minimize this. Missions? Rats? They two big ways people make money, also mining is basically like this (bring minerals into the economy whiout anything going out (appart from the miners time)). Isk has to be created somehow otherwise everyonw would run out of money as when i ship gets destroyed all its isk value is destroyed.
Right, they are there, but CCP doesn't really like isk faucets as new ideas is what I meant. Sorry, should have been more clear.
But the isk, once created, stays in the market. The minerals get destroyed.
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On February 18 2011 04:36 Belgo wrote:good word thornton.
i demand the creation of a city of operahouse-casino hybrids what we will call operasinos
i will call it new camden
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On February 18 2011 04:47 LaughingTulkas wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 04:44 Weken wrote:On February 18 2011 04:37 LaughingTulkas wrote:
Just creating isk out of thin air is something in general bad for the game, and CCP tries to minimize this. Missions? Rats? They two big ways people make money, also mining is basically like this (bring minerals into the economy whiout anything going out (appart from the miners time)). Isk has to be created somehow otherwise everyonw would run out of money as when i ship gets destroyed all its isk value is destroyed. Right, they are there, but CCP doesn't really like isk faucets as new ideas is what I meant. Sorry, should have been more clear. But the isk, once created, stays in the market. The minerals get destroyed.
Ok i see- but minerals get traded for isk, which then cant be taken out of the market. Basically the EVE market is slowly inflating, i think that if you look at the prices for things, you can see this. But im not sure.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On February 18 2011 05:02 Weken wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 04:47 LaughingTulkas wrote:On February 18 2011 04:44 Weken wrote:On February 18 2011 04:37 LaughingTulkas wrote:
Just creating isk out of thin air is something in general bad for the game, and CCP tries to minimize this. Missions? Rats? They two big ways people make money, also mining is basically like this (bring minerals into the economy whiout anything going out (appart from the miners time)). Isk has to be created somehow otherwise everyonw would run out of money as when i ship gets destroyed all its isk value is destroyed. Right, they are there, but CCP doesn't really like isk faucets as new ideas is what I meant. Sorry, should have been more clear. But the isk, once created, stays in the market. The minerals get destroyed. Ok i see- but minerals get traded for isk, which then cant be taken out of the market. Basically the EVE market is slowly inflating, i think that if you look at the prices for things, you can see this. But im not sure.
The EVE market isn't inflating. PLEX prices have stayed relatively stable. Drakes a few months ago were cheaper than they were when I started playing.
If there's long-term inflation, CCP will eliminate it. I'm pretty sure that's one of their main goals when maintaining the economy.
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I don't know much about Eve economy, but I do know this: money supply does not equate to raw material supply. The creation of ISK includes bounties, mission reward and insurance payouts. The destruction of ISK includes skillbooks, market taxes, sovereignty taxes, station repair.
Including a new game mechanic that offers a new source of mineral supply would simply boost the supply of minerals (and likely greatly suppress the margins of miners, which usually comes from price declines). All this serves is to open up a new avenue of mineral supply -- that is, capacity. And as in the real world, when capacity expansions outpace increase in demand, prices and margins fall as people fight to make money out of mineral operations.
However, the implications of this are that people further downstream the supply chain will benefit from this cost reduction and in the end likely make ships cheaper, assuming margins at other levels of the supply chain remain constant. Cheaper ships means that people's disposable income increases, and they're able to spend more, likely increasing demand for every kind of end-market product. This should help offset some of the pricing pressure frrm the mineral capacity expansion. So interestingly enough, while the supply of money won't go up, the demand for money should and presumably PLEX:ISK conversion should decline.
Anyway, TL;DR: more mineral just means mineral prices go down, and consumers benefit from the cost-downs in the form of cheaper ships.
+ Show Spoiler +(this is not theorycraft, I specialize in analyzing several consumer electronics supply chains, which require understanding the supply/demand of LCD panels, glass, sapphire, memory, camera modules, etc. all of which are to one degree or another, commodity markets)
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Bascally its the same as the making mining easier thing about 10 pages ago:
More minerals = they are cheaper. Also minerals are a nessesity in EVE right? Sience you pretty much need ships and modules in EVE. Luxeries would be Officer and faction mods. But the basic ecnomics theroy the same for most goods.
Also if ships were cheaper then the quantity demanded would increse and as long as the supply curve wasnt very steep or flat (elastic or inelastic) then the total money spent on ships wouldn't change, but the demand curve for ships may be inelastic meaning that total income spent on ships would decrese leading to a rise in demand in all good as you said.
+ Show Spoiler +Hey my GCSE ecnomics is being helpfull, yay.
Also Inflation is pretty much in all economies so i expect it to be in the EVE market, but it may not be because i havnt been around for long. Also i have noticed that prices are faily stable so mabye CCP make inflation to 0% as they have control of the EVE economy. - but tbh thats just a theroycraft.
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All this economics talk is dizzying.
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EPT
