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On February 18 2011 07:27 Warri wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 07:06 Widdershins wrote:On February 18 2011 06:44 Johnny Business wrote:
Try moving out to 0.0/low sec where you can fight those of us who actually enjoy pvp if you want a real fight. Until then stop complaining about blobbing. You being the only one in corp doesn't matter when the hatchery clearly can't break your rr and if we get a fleet that can do it you dock up and never fights or gets concorded. Stop complaining about us not wanting to fight on your terms. There it is: TRY MOVING TO WHERE PRO PEOPLE ARE AND NOT HISEC WHERE WEENIES ARE Someone says it every time. Bro, you even brought all your best PVPers out to fight me. If you didn't, that's not my fault. So far, I haven't had to go to you, and that's the way it should be. I don't know what I said that you somehow interpreted as complaining. I think this is fun as hell, you guys are the ones who have people whining about how I don't fight you normally. When I get a magical cloning machine that can make ten of me appear in the game, I'll do that. 'Till then, lean forward and try to witness some unfamiliar tactics without condemning them just because they're new to you. <3 tofu, GF, etc. My recommendation is to always have an insta-dock bookmark for important stations, and if you don't, be ready to warp the right the hell back out when you land two accursed kilometers away in a pod. I am not going to grace Callum's abhorrent post with a response. What you do is basically zero risk pvp. We will not grow by 20 people magically during a fight to gank your ship/rr and you know which ships we fly. You can keep track of us and just dock up when you feel unsafe (which is never with 3 neut reps). We had the element of surprise once with the scorpion and barely failed to kill you. Then they fitted eccm and were back at you knowing your odds 100%. Im not complaining, but please, stop bragging, its nothing special really.
Sorry in advance Widders but...
I can no longer stand by and watch people currently at war with widders complain about neutral RR when they have so many pilots that can field mulitple ships vs his 1 + reps.
This is not meant to insult at all but why are you all complaining? You guys repeatedly use ECM drones/ships and that by far serves way more of an advantage (especially when you have tons of other corp members that can attack with dps ships) over neutral reps. You CAN ecm out reps even if they have eccm (eccm doesn't make you immune to jamming). Widders already addressed the fact that you can ECM out his reps if they bother you that much and yes they can dock up but yes you can re-jam them when they undock, its pretty simple.
Besides that you all play a ton of Starcraft and im told that you are good at it, SC is definitely a strategy game and for you to excel at it but fail to find at minimum 2 other methods other then ECM's to counter his reps boggles my mind. Please put effort into figuring out 2 other methods of countering his reps and stop using it as an excuse as to why you cant kill him or as an insult to how he chooses to fight incredibly out numbered. You all using ECM sort of forces him to result to RR.
Honestly he isn't doing %100 safe pvp (because there is no such thing, rooks and kings prove this often), as a group of 4 or more you are lethal to him but apparently just don't know it yet.
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On February 18 2011 07:45 Widdershins wrote:Not buffer tanked at all. .
My mistake, what my corpmates have told me as Ive never actually been in a fight with you.
To above, what you speak of is expecting a group of players with a lot of skillpoints, but the fact is I can count on one hand the amount of people in corp that actually break the 10mil mark. Sure its easy to theorycraft ways to pop him, but when you have a 1m skillpoint player, theres not much else that he can do other then use ECM to be really useful.
Sure, what he does is not 100% safe, but such thing does not exist, hes still doing the safest type of pvp that you could ever imagine.
(also, please give me a break with that ''1 neutral rep'' bullshit, he starts the fight with one but as soon as he sees he might start to be in trouble he batphones all of your corp (or shoots you, depending on the situation)
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On February 18 2011 07:45 Widdershins wrote:Not buffer tanked at all. Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 07:27 Warri wrote:
What you do is basically zero risk pvp. We will not grow by 20 people magically during a fight to gank your ship/rr and you know which ships we fly. You can keep track of us and just dock up when you feel unsafe (which is never with 3 neut reps). We had the element of surprise once with the scorpion and barely failed to kill you. Then they fitted eccm and were back at you knowing your odds 100%.
Im not complaining, but please, stop bragging, its nothing special really. What you mean is, it doesn't seem that way to you now that you've seen it. If you were thinking this at the time, why did you do things the way you did? And please stop accusing me of bragging. If you thought it was impressive, you can say so, but I should be allowed to talk about what I do without being called a braggart.
We were trying to get lucky with the jam cycles, knowing it wont work out any other way.
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On February 18 2011 07:40 KwarK wrote:
I'm fairly certain that pretty much anyone can take a ship with the kind of resists a sleipnir has at sit it at 0 on a station with three neutral remote rep ships also at 0 on a station. The amount of firepower it'd take to break you before you deaggressed could not be realistically put together every time you felt like undocking. It's effective but I don't believe it to be particularly complicated.
And you guys are capable of such fire power. Honestly if i had a wt with the fleet composition you described above if i had a few guys with me and he wasn't scared to agress with all of us there i would bet we could break him before he docked. Either that or something different that i wont disclose here atm but just as effective.
Now if it were a full armor buffed BS with neutral reps all on 0 at a station then that would be a slightly different story and i can only think of one single way to kill him.
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On February 18 2011 07:53 Warri wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 07:45 Widdershins wrote:On February 18 2011 07:38 TurpinOS wrote:
overly buffer tanked command ship. Not buffer tanked at all. On February 18 2011 07:27 Warri wrote:
What you do is basically zero risk pvp. We will not grow by 20 people magically during a fight to gank your ship/rr and you know which ships we fly. You can keep track of us and just dock up when you feel unsafe (which is never with 3 neut reps). We had the element of surprise once with the scorpion and barely failed to kill you. Then they fitted eccm and were back at you knowing your odds 100%.
Im not complaining, but please, stop bragging, its nothing special really. What you mean is, it doesn't seem that way to you now that you've seen it. If you were thinking this at the time, why did you do things the way you did? And please stop accusing me of bragging. If you thought it was impressive, you can say so, but I should be allowed to talk about what I do without being called a braggart. We were trying to get lucky with the jam cycles, knowing it wont work out any other way.
Or, as Day[9] would call it, executing a hope-based strategy!
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On February 18 2011 07:42 pahndah wrote:Use this fit and a 5% pg implant for epic 15.1 km/s bumpage without snakes/links! + Show Spoiler +
[Dramiel, speed]
Navy Micro Auxiliary Power Core
Navy Micro Auxiliary Power Core
Navy Micro Auxiliary Power Core
10MN Digital Booster Rockets
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Ancillary Current Router II
Do it up.
Or you could use a mach since that actually has mass :>
Also, why is there a peson in this thread rationalizing his use of neutral reps in hisec docking games. Just admit that you're scared of fighting and be done with it. Isn't it a thrill to you to enter a fight with bad odds just for the possibility of winning? Or taking several of them down with you? Have you not experianced the rush of winning a 1v1? I wish you could feel the rush of jumping into a gatecamp with 4:1 odds and coming out alive while inflicting 1bil worth of damage on your opponent. Sadly my heart weeps for you because I know that in hisec you will never experiance this joy 
And while you're right that most people in 0.0 are terrible at pvp my mind fears wondering what would happen if you put a bunch of empire dwellers in nullsec. I mean, just look at the first hisec incursion.
Edit: oh god there's 2 of them now
Edit2: If you're actually using neutral reps on a non buffer tanked sleipnir and you're aren't trolling then I'd like to inform you that a small tiny piece of my sanity is forever gone
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Rooks and kings might do one thing but I do not think that this corp has enough sp to fly what is needed to kill him before he docks up.
Also you are not a total retard so of course you won't fight us if we get enough to kill you.
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On February 18 2011 07:57 bN` wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 07:42 pahndah wrote:Use this fit and a 5% pg implant for epic 15.1 km/s bumpage without snakes/links! + Show Spoiler +
[Dramiel, speed]
Navy Micro Auxiliary Power Core
Navy Micro Auxiliary Power Core
Navy Micro Auxiliary Power Core
10MN Digital Booster Rockets
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Ancillary Current Router II
Do it up. Or you could use a mach since that actually has mass :> Also, why is there a peson in this thread rationalizing his use of neutral reps in hisec docking games. Just admit that you're scared of fighting and be done with it. Isn't it a thrill to you to enter a fight with bad odds just for the possibility of winning? Or taking several of them down with you? Have you not experianced the rush of winning a 1v1? I wish you could feel the rush of jumping into a gatecamp with 4:1 odds and coming out alive while inflicting 1bil worth of damage on your opponent. Sadly my heart weeps for you because I know that in hisec you will never experiance this joy And while you're right that most people in 0.0 are terrible at pvp my mind fears wondering what would happen if you put a bunch of empire dwellers in nullsec. I mean, just look at the first hisec incursion. Edit: oh god there's 2 of them now
Dram is cheaper to fit and faster to train for!
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On February 18 2011 07:51 TurpinOS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 07:45 Widdershins wrote:On February 18 2011 07:38 TurpinOS wrote:
overly buffer tanked command ship. Not buffer tanked at all. . My mistake, what my corpmates have told me as Ive never actually been in a fight with you. To above, what you speak of is expecting a group of players with a lot of skillpoints, but the fact is I can count on one hand the amount of people in corp that actually break the 10mil mark. Sure its easy to theorycraft ways to pop him, but when you have a 1m skillpoint player, theres not much else that he can do other then use ECM to be really useful. Sure, what he does is not 100% safe, but such thing does not exist, hes still doing the safest type of pvp that you could ever imagine.
Ok, I have seen plenty of you guys in BC's and BS's even... Honestly a small group of BS's would do the job fine, i could take my 6m sp alt in the sort of configuration i'm describing back when he was at 3m sp even. Unless the only group of members you have in Emol are all only trained for mining barges or PI then you poses the capability to form the composition i'm thinking of.
(also, please give me a break with that ''1 neutral rep'' bullshit, he starts the fight with one but as soon as he sees he might start to be in trouble he batphones all of your corp (or shoots you, depending on the situation)
Maybe i should have worded that a little differently, i mean his 1(his pvp ship/toon) + Reps (undetermined number). Sorry about that.
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On February 18 2011 07:53 Warri wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 07:45 Widdershins wrote:On February 18 2011 07:38 TurpinOS wrote:
overly buffer tanked command ship. Not buffer tanked at all. On February 18 2011 07:27 Warri wrote:
What you do is basically zero risk pvp. We will not grow by 20 people magically during a fight to gank your ship/rr and you know which ships we fly. You can keep track of us and just dock up when you feel unsafe (which is never with 3 neut reps). We had the element of surprise once with the scorpion and barely failed to kill you. Then they fitted eccm and were back at you knowing your odds 100%.
Im not complaining, but please, stop bragging, its nothing special really. What you mean is, it doesn't seem that way to you now that you've seen it. If you were thinking this at the time, why did you do things the way you did? And please stop accusing me of bragging. If you thought it was impressive, you can say so, but I should be allowed to talk about what I do without being called a braggart. We were trying to get lucky with the jam cycles, knowing it wont work out any other way.
Thats just the thing warri, there are other way more effective methods other then jamming... think about that. (widders is gonna hate me here in a minute if you all figure out what im talking about and explore other methods)
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United States43444 Posts
On February 18 2011 07:56 Zer0 Kool wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 07:40 KwarK wrote:
I'm fairly certain that pretty much anyone can take a ship with the kind of resists a sleipnir has at sit it at 0 on a station with three neutral remote rep ships also at 0 on a station. The amount of firepower it'd take to break you before you deaggressed could not be realistically put together every time you felt like undocking. It's effective but I don't believe it to be particularly complicated. And you guys are capable of such fire power. Honestly if i had a wt with the fleet composition you described above if i had a few guys with me and he wasn't scared to agress with all of us there i would bet we could break him before he docked. Either that or something different that i wont disclose here atm but just as effective. Now if it were a full armor buffed BS with neutral reps all on 0 at a station then that would be a slightly different story and i can only think of one single way to kill him.
The one time we've really tried it was around 7 of us against him with 2 neutral scimitars and a basi at 0. Ewar was next to useless because damps didn't bother the RR (sitting at 0 on a station anyway), neuts can be easily negated by repping until you're out then docking and undocking (with 3 RRs we're not gonna hit them all simultaneously) and ECM by ECCM. A sleipnir has sufficient resists that it amplifies even one logi massively and bonuses that make it capable of tanking four battlecruisers solo with a good setup. I know what ships we have at our disposal better than you.
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United States43444 Posts
On February 18 2011 08:02 Zer0 Kool wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 07:53 Warri wrote:On February 18 2011 07:45 Widdershins wrote:On February 18 2011 07:38 TurpinOS wrote:
overly buffer tanked command ship. Not buffer tanked at all. On February 18 2011 07:27 Warri wrote:
What you do is basically zero risk pvp. We will not grow by 20 people magically during a fight to gank your ship/rr and you know which ships we fly. You can keep track of us and just dock up when you feel unsafe (which is never with 3 neut reps). We had the element of surprise once with the scorpion and barely failed to kill you. Then they fitted eccm and were back at you knowing your odds 100%.
Im not complaining, but please, stop bragging, its nothing special really. What you mean is, it doesn't seem that way to you now that you've seen it. If you were thinking this at the time, why did you do things the way you did? And please stop accusing me of bragging. If you thought it was impressive, you can say so, but I should be allowed to talk about what I do without being called a braggart. We were trying to get lucky with the jam cycles, knowing it wont work out any other way. Thats just the thing warri, there are other way more effective methods other then jamming... think about that. (widders is gonna hate me here in a minute if you all figure out what im talking about and explore other methods)
If you're talking about damps then we love them in open fleet battles when you can nano around and pull the bolder ships away from the logis and then a 5 day old guy in a vigil with 2 damps can just turn their logis off. That's fucking beautiful. But it doesn't work at 0 on a station.
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On February 18 2011 07:50 Zer0 Kool wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 07:27 Warri wrote:On February 18 2011 07:06 Widdershins wrote:On February 18 2011 06:44 Johnny Business wrote:
Try moving out to 0.0/low sec where you can fight those of us who actually enjoy pvp if you want a real fight. Until then stop complaining about blobbing. You being the only one in corp doesn't matter when the hatchery clearly can't break your rr and if we get a fleet that can do it you dock up and never fights or gets concorded. Stop complaining about us not wanting to fight on your terms. There it is: TRY MOVING TO WHERE PRO PEOPLE ARE AND NOT HISEC WHERE WEENIES ARE Someone says it every time. Bro, you even brought all your best PVPers out to fight me. If you didn't, that's not my fault. So far, I haven't had to go to you, and that's the way it should be. I don't know what I said that you somehow interpreted as complaining. I think this is fun as hell, you guys are the ones who have people whining about how I don't fight you normally. When I get a magical cloning machine that can make ten of me appear in the game, I'll do that. 'Till then, lean forward and try to witness some unfamiliar tactics without condemning them just because they're new to you. <3 tofu, GF, etc. My recommendation is to always have an insta-dock bookmark for important stations, and if you don't, be ready to warp the right the hell back out when you land two accursed kilometers away in a pod. I am not going to grace Callum's abhorrent post with a response. What you do is basically zero risk pvp. We will not grow by 20 people magically during a fight to gank your ship/rr and you know which ships we fly. You can keep track of us and just dock up when you feel unsafe (which is never with 3 neut reps). We had the element of surprise once with the scorpion and barely failed to kill you. Then they fitted eccm and were back at you knowing your odds 100%. Im not complaining, but please, stop bragging, its nothing special really. Sorry in advance Widders but... I can no longer stand by and watch people currently at war with widders complain about neutral RR when they have so many pilots that can field mulitple ships vs his 1 + reps. This is not meant to insult at all but why are you all complaining? You guys repeatedly use ECM drones/ships and that by far serves way more of an advantage (especially when you have tons of other corp members that can attack with dps ships) over neutral reps. You CAN ecm out reps even if they have eccm (eccm doesn't make you immune to jamming). Widders already addressed the fact that you can ECM out his reps if they bother you that much and yes they can dock up but yes you can re-jam them when they undock, its pretty simple. Besides that you all play a ton of Starcraft and im told that you are good at it, SC is definitely a strategy game and for you to excel at it but fail to find at minimum 2 other methods other then ECM's to counter his reps boggles my mind. Please put effort into figuring out 2 other methods of countering his reps and stop using it as an excuse as to why you cant kill him or as an insult to how he chooses to fight incredibly out numbered. You all using ECM sort of forces him to result to RR. Honestly he isn't doing %100 safe pvp (because there is no such thing, rooks and kings prove this often), as a group of 4 or more you are lethal to him but apparently just don't know it yet.
Yes, with a group of 4...30m sp guys in Ved battleships or command ships. You think we fly ecm cause we like it so much? We fly it cause our average pilot has 5m sp and its the fastest thing you can train. And no, you wont jam 3 reps with just one scorpion/bb/griffin whatever if youre jamming strengh is 6 per jammer (yes thats 6 out of 14max) because you lack sp.
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On February 18 2011 07:57 bN` wrote:Also, why is there a peson in this thread rationalizing his use of neutral reps in hisec docking games. Just admit that you're scared of fighting and be done with it. Isn't it a thrill to you to enter a fight with bad odds just for the possibility of winning? Or taking several of them down with you? Have you not experianced the rush of winning a 1v1? I wish you could feel the rush of jumping into a gatecamp with 4:1 odds and coming out alive while inflicting 1bil worth of damage on your opponent. Sadly my heart weeps for you because I know that in hisec you will never experiance this joy And while you're right that most people in 0.0 are terrible at pvp my mind fears wondering what would happen if you put a bunch of empire dwellers in nullsec. I mean, just look at the first hisec incursion. Edit: oh god there's 2 of them now
I'm not scared of fighting. I've fought you guys several times, and I'd do it again. Yes, it's a thrill to have bad odds. That's the kind of thrill that says you should ease up and not lose your goddamn ship for no gain. Yes, I've fought 6 battlecruisers with a lone battleship 800km off a station, died, and still come out on top. Of course I've fought, and won, 1v1s in very expensive ships, and in ships that were very outclassed. Yes, I've smashed some retarded gatecamps and dealt billions of isk in damage at once. I have done these things in hisec, lowsec, nullsec, and wspace. Why are you asking these questions as if you feel sorry for me and are certain that these are some kind of unattainable joy for pitiful scum like me?
I don't like your attitude, son.
and i didn't say nullsecers were bad at pvp, and i'm not an 'empire dweller.'
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On February 18 2011 07:57 bN` wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 07:42 pahndah wrote:Use this fit and a 5% pg implant for epic 15.1 km/s bumpage without snakes/links! + Show Spoiler +
[Dramiel, speed]
Navy Micro Auxiliary Power Core
Navy Micro Auxiliary Power Core
Navy Micro Auxiliary Power Core
10MN Digital Booster Rockets
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Ancillary Current Router II
Do it up. Or you could use a mach since that actually has mass :> Also, why is there a peson in this thread rationalizing his use of neutral reps in hisec docking games. Just admit that you're scared of fighting and be done with it. Isn't it a thrill to you to enter a fight with bad odds just for the possibility of winning? Or taking several of them down with you? Have you not experianced the rush of winning a 1v1? I wish you could feel the rush of jumping into a gatecamp with 4:1 odds and coming out alive while inflicting 1bil worth of damage on your opponent. Sadly my heart weeps for you because I know that in hisec you will never experiance this joy
Um yes i have and so has widders but taking breaks and doing organized campaigns sometimes is fun. Although everytime we come back to empire and we blow someones ship up they get all "Go to 0.0 or low sec for solo real pvp" on us all because thats their only response to getting killed.
And while you're right that most people in 0.0 are terrible at pvp my mind fears wondering what would happen if you put a bunch of empire dwellers in nullsec. I mean, just look at the first hisec incursion.
Edit: oh god there's 2 of them now
I havent bashed anyone at all and all im doing is trying to open your minds a bit and help some of you who have proven yourselves to be good at SC try to take some of the effort you put into strategy and apply it to EVE. If you want to go down the road of "LOL YOU CANT FIGHT SEVERELY OUTNUMBERED WITH REPS YOU SO FAIL" then we can go down them and honestly ill probably be banned in 12 seconds.
Until then im trying to be nice.
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On February 18 2011 07:51 TurpinOS wrote:
(also, please give me a break with that ''1 neutral rep'' bullshit, he starts the fight with one but as soon as he sees he might start to be in trouble he batphones all of your corp (or shoots you, depending on the situation)
>implying i meant to go GCC because I thought I was going to lose that fight
You make me sad, man.
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United States43444 Posts
On February 18 2011 08:10 Widdershins wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 07:51 TurpinOS wrote:
(also, please give me a break with that ''1 neutral rep'' bullshit, he starts the fight with one but as soon as he sees he might start to be in trouble he batphones all of your corp (or shoots you, depending on the situation) >implying i meant to go GCC because I thought I was going to lose that fight You make me sad, man.
I think that was just banter.
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Lalalaland34499 Posts
Ok, I have seen plenty of you guys in BC's and BS's even... Honestly a small group of BS's would do the job fine, i could take my 6m sp alt in the sort of configuration i'm describing back when he was at 3m sp even.
Number of guys in corp with proper pvp bc's = 2 hands.
Number of guys in corp with proper pvp bs's = hmm...probably 1 hand with 2 fingers missing :/
bN isn't actually in the hatchery, he's just joining the fun 
tbh, highsec war is usually fine. It's just when super-gay-tactics are used (more referring to the way you sniped our 2.5b golem) that it becomes dirty and annoying. afaik, there is no easy way to counter multiple neutral reps on a station at 0, so forgive me while i find that to be incredibly gay until i somehow figure a way to counter it
googling...
edit: and yeah we're not serious about how you purposefully gcc'd yourself, we all find that really funny (and...why?!)
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On February 18 2011 08:05 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2011 08:02 Zer0 Kool wrote:On February 18 2011 07:53 Warri wrote:On February 18 2011 07:45 Widdershins wrote:On February 18 2011 07:38 TurpinOS wrote:
overly buffer tanked command ship. Not buffer tanked at all. On February 18 2011 07:27 Warri wrote:
What you do is basically zero risk pvp. We will not grow by 20 people magically during a fight to gank your ship/rr and you know which ships we fly. You can keep track of us and just dock up when you feel unsafe (which is never with 3 neut reps). We had the element of surprise once with the scorpion and barely failed to kill you. Then they fitted eccm and were back at you knowing your odds 100%.
Im not complaining, but please, stop bragging, its nothing special really. What you mean is, it doesn't seem that way to you now that you've seen it. If you were thinking this at the time, why did you do things the way you did? And please stop accusing me of bragging. If you thought it was impressive, you can say so, but I should be allowed to talk about what I do without being called a braggart. We were trying to get lucky with the jam cycles, knowing it wont work out any other way. Thats just the thing warri, there are other way more effective methods other then jamming... think about that. (widders is gonna hate me here in a minute if you all figure out what im talking about and explore other methods) If you're talking about damps then we love them in open fleet battles when you can nano around and pull the bolder ships away from the logis and then a 5 day old guy in a vigil with 2 damps can just turn their logis off. That's fucking beautiful. But it doesn't work at 0 on a station.
Well thats one way to go about it but i've heard stories of widders floating off the station more then 50km in a bhaalgorn, i don't know how many times he pulled the sleipnir at 0km on station on you guys but im going to assume it was only once or twice.
If you want me to be completely honest. Neuts is what i was thinking about and not the small or medium(unless curse) ones either. There is one more tactic as well which anyone with a alt that flys a cruiser and has Engineering V and ok Navigation skills can accomplish.
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Lalalaland34499 Posts
we've considered that. neuts don't work on a station at 0 (nrr docks and undocks back at 100% cap)
edit: we've only ever engaged widders in his bhaalgorn 50km off station once, and that was the very first time when we discovered he was in league with you guys. that was also very much a skeleton crew
if you remember correctly i was (painfully obviously lol) repeatedly dropping cans while we were shouting out in corp for non-afk members
edit2: didn't read carefully enough, i'm still intrigued by this enginV+navs tactic might be.
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EPT
