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United States43681 Posts
Notes on liquidity, competition and economies of scale.
Basically we're getting 2-3k/LP here which is awesome but the problem is actually converting that LP into isk. Because what we're doing at the moment is some kind of disorganised undercutting mess where we're all trying to sell fast because we've got literally billions trapped in assets that we want to free up but none of us can be assed to actually sit in a hub babysitting sell orders or going 25j to find a better hub or any of that shit. While we all know we're getting rich from LP we're not actually getting rich, in fact what I'm doing at the moment is pumping what liquidity I have into creating more ammo with LP for more hypothetical value and while I'm theoretically very rich I have no actual isk.
This is a problem.
So, our specific issues.
Selling inefficiently. All getting the same ammo and flooding some hubs while ignoring others.
Competing with each other when our .01ing means everyone loses more.
Not doing a great job of competing because we're all too busy doing interesting things to pay too much attention to our orders.
The result is a liquidity crisis which in turn results in missing out on huge value when we eventually crack and either start using LP for ourselves like getting implants for personal use (less than 1k/lp) or selling to buy orders. This is an observable, quantifiable problem and it is one that we as a corp can solve through utilising our considerable liquidity and powers of centralisation.
My proposal is simple, that the corp acts as a middle man. That way a single person interested in doing in game trading could manage the sales without such a pressing need to convert assets into isk, without competition from himself and without disrupting the normal routine of members. By offering a rate (in the form of corp contract buy orders on LP items) significantly above the market buy orders but below the theoretical value of LP items there would be a method of quickly dumping LP and getting isk without the soul destroying feeling of selling to buy orders. With that many LP being spent it'd be worth whoever was doing this to provide continual, up to date data on the best items to make. Also the money would be staying in the corp.
We all know that our LP items are worth what we're selling them for, that's the going rate. The problem is simply that while they will eventually sell and we will eventually get our money we often simply cannot wait. We don't have the money lying around to play the long game so we are effectively paying richer players to do that waiting for us in exchange for short term shiny things. Well, if our corp was a player it'd be pretty rich and it's certainly in no real hurry to buy stuff. It's the perfect middle man.
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Man, I read through this thread at least once a day, and each time I get something new out of it. I guess I'm able to actually understand some of the stuff you guys talk about, now that I have a few days of gameplay. (but the deluge of abbreviations is nuts and a serious pain to look up every single two letter thing)
So here are the things I've picked up so far, please correct me if I'm off:
1 - Caldarri PvP sucks except for ECM due to missile nerf, as missiles now have a penalty against smaller targets and take way too long to reach their target so you end up only targeting tertiaries instead of primary/secondaries. And ECM, while necessary, can't be levered to win you battles. That being said, it seems some people here have a Drake fetish.
2 - Logistics is key to any battle, and can be levered to win you larger scale battles -- in a way, it's "the best offense is a good defense" idea. (What happens when two fleets' logi tanks are greater than each other's dps? Stalemate?)
3 - Minny PvP rifter is most cost efficient, and their logi is also best. For BC and up you want Amarr.
4 - interceptors are crucial, but are pretty much suicide since tackling is a relatively short distance device. scouts are crucial for any larger fleet esp w/ capital ships, but are probably pretty boring?
5 - random stuff that I didn't know about: insta-undock bookmarking; intel channels in low/null secs; jump clones; 100% skill bonus with first 1.6M skill points (that's why you do lvl 4 learning first); money making efficiency from lowest to highest: mission, salvage, explore, pvp; it takes forever to skill up to BCs and up; there are maps for wormholes which are a whole other can of worms in themselves; destroyers are useless, try to get to cruisers as fast as possible; and there's a whole new world of trade logistics that use POS out there.
Whew!
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Hmm, I would call caldari pvp bad. Drake is abeastly ship if you actually grow some balls put some ham launchers on it on have a web + scram. Unguided missiles all need a web to put out the dps that they're capable of. Fleet fights it's a different story since you probably will end up shooting tertiaries(maybe vil can post about his SERBERUS flights when we were doing 150man hac gangs) unless it's a missile focused fleet like getting 20drakes and some scimies together with some recon ships for tackle and some other stuff for ganglinks. Then the alpha of missiles becomes a big deal since you can't really rep that kind of burst if it's timed correctly(darkside is pro at this). I've also heard stories about PL phoenix's fleets 1shoting other dreads in cap fights.
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I haven't seen a phoenix in any cap fleet yet, tbh. Then again, dreads have been obsolete for a while now.
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On October 05 2010 04:04 Happy.fairytail wrote:
destroyers are useless
Destroyers are decent solo PvP ships in 0.0.
There are many ships I'd rather fly, but destroyers are not bad.
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I just found out that attributes only affect the pace at which you learn skills. And given you can only remap once a year, it probably makes sense that you gear your attributes to the skills you'll be learning for that year.
That being said, is that the way I should remap? 1 year sounds awfully a long time to focus on one set of skills. I know everyone in this thread has basically said never generalize, always specialize -- but I really love every aspect of the game, and I think I would rather enjoy myself training and doing everything (like what I've been doing with my 14 day trial account).
'Cuz as weird as it sounds, I actually like doing missions. I like exploring new star systems (not ratting/plexing in particular), discovering new ways of making money and playing with new types of weapons and ships. I really like all the different things I can do, and I like the idea that getting skill groups to level 3-4 only takes a few days or a week so.
Given that, would you guys still recommend I specialize in something rather than generalizing? I'm thinking of remapping my 21 day acct to an even spread in attributes, instead of the int/perc that's recommended in the OP.
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United States43681 Posts
The way attributes work is you get an entirely linear amount for every point. That means that if you have 27 weeks of perception skills and 25 weeks of intelligence skills you should still put every point into perception and that'll save you time overall. You get twice the bonus for primary skills as secondary so the secondaries (mem/wp) shouldn't be given any points in the first year because putting points in the other main primary will be twice as effective. For most players (going ships+guns) the optimal for the first year will be maxed perception with the rest in intelligence (support skills) and then for every subsequent year maxed perception and the rest in willpower. Every ship has the same basic support skills (engineering electronics) so you get those in your first year for your first ship and then they're done for all the subsequent ships you unlock in later years.
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Corporation Management: Memory / Charisma (7,424,000)
(Skills for leading your own corporation.)
Drones: Memory / Perception (23,552,000)
(Combat skills which allow you to use unmanned combat drones.)
Electronics: Intelligence / Memory (18,176,000)
(Skills for targeting and electronic warfare.)
Engineering: Intelligence / Memory (15,616,000)
(Skills for improving your shields and your power output.)
Gunnery: Perception / Willpower (45,568,000)
(Combat skills, allow you to use more turret-style weapons and to deal more damage.)
Industry: Memory / Intelligence (26,624,000)
(Skills for production and mining.)
Leadership: Charisma / Willpower (15,872,000)
(Fleet skills, give small bonuses to your ships when in a fleet.)
Learning: Memory / Intelligence (5,376,000)
(Skills which make you train all skills faster.)
Mechanic: Intelligence / Memory (35,072,000)
(Skills for improving your armor, advanced production skills, and advance ship outfitting skills.)
Missile Launcher Operation: Perception / Willpower (24,064,000)
(Skills for using and increasing damage from all types of missiles.)
Navigation: Intelligence / Perception (9,728,000)
(Skills to make you go faster, jump farther, and use less power/fuel.)
Science: Intelligence / Memory (68,352,000)
(Skills for research and advanced production.)
Social: Charisma / Intelligence (5,376,000)
(Skills to improve mission rewards, and decrease market fees.)
Spaceship Command: Perception / Willpower (116,224,000)
(Skills to fly all ships, also boosts the capabilities of those ships.)
Subsystems: Intelligence / Perception (5,120,000)
(Skills to use highly-advanced ships.)
Trade: Charisma / Memory (8,960,000)
(Skills affecting your ability to place market orders and contracts, and to decrease market fees.)
Perception/Int is a semi-middle of the road remap. I would personally advise going mem/int to grab the key electronic, engineering, and rigging skills, than remap to perception/willpower to grab all the dps/ship flying skills.
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I'd set a short term goal. Since you have 2 remaps, it isn't OMGTERRIBLE if one is used for a few months of training. Normally you'd want to make a year long plan in EVE-Mon and remap after that.
I'd look at core skills I need, and ships I want to try flying, plug it in EVE-Mon and make the remap suggested. This is perhaps a 2 month plan, to figure things out. After that I'd do the year long remaps.
Even if you decide to hardcore plan for some type of ship, with +3 implants it isn't too slow to train a few skills that are not in the plan. If you want to be a combat pilot it's pretty easy on you, same attributes required for almost all manners of weapons/ships.
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On October 05 2010 04:04 Happy.fairytail wrote:
1 - Caldarri PvP sucks except for ECM due to missile nerf, as missiles now have a penalty against smaller targets and take way too long to reach their target so you end up only targeting tertiaries instead of primary/secondaries. And ECM, while necessary, can't be levered to win you battles. That being said, it seems some people here have a Drake fetish.
As Yulwei pointed out already, caldari are horrible in any fleet that relies on instant dps, speed or armortanking. While this rules out a lot of really sexy fleet concepts (RR BS, Armorhacs, Sniperhacs, Nanogangs) drakes are simply put the best BC in terms of tank/dps/range ratio. If you build a fleet around them (see my posts on darkside-style) they are insane.
However, yes, they suck in almost any other fleet concept.
2 - Logistics is key to any battle, and can be levered to win you larger scale battles -- in a way, it's "the best offense is a good defense" idea. (What happens when two fleets' logi tanks are greater than each other's dps? Stalemate?)
PvP if reduced to the absolute minimum means that their stuff which does damage has to die quicker than your stuff which does damage. In my evelife I've never seen a real stalemate happen, especially since people usually use different fleettypes to counter. You dont run RR BS into RR BS, you run Armorhacs into them. VS overwhelming logistics the only possible thing in some cases are to maneuver around in a way which splits the hostile fleet good enough so their logi cant keep up or to rely on the mighty beast called ALPHA STRRRRRIKEYARRR.
3 - Minny PvP rifter is most cost efficient, and their logi is also best. For BC and up you want Amarr.
Welp. For a T1 frigate, yes, the rifter is cost efficient. However most people won't stay in them for long. Which ship you want is entirely situational. Minnie has the best logistics for almost any shieldtanked gang. Amarr the best for almost any armortanked gang. With the current state of the game gallente/caldari logistics fill niches.
However, in my opinion for the gangs we used to do most I'd say gallente is the worst race and minmatar the best. "Best" and "worst" not only in terms of actual ships but especially in terms of what the racial cruiser V enables you to do. Since I expect for the hatchery that at one point either a) people will split off to "more pvp oriented corps" or b) some people from TL will start something to make the more bloodthirsty people happy I totally keep that recommendation up, small scale pvp hasn't changed that much.
Shieldtanked BCs are a very, very good short-term goal for any PvPer. Midterm should be non-caldari Hacs/Recons. Longterm should be crosstrain, even before Battleships. (Assuming you don't want to mission or anything.) ... Battleships are simply not the way to go for small scale stuff in 0.0 at this point in time. They are great to have in your hangar for defensive purposes but that's about it.
4 - interceptors are crucial, but are pretty much suicide since tackling is a relatively short distance device. scouts are crucial for any larger fleet esp w/ capital ships, but are probably pretty boring?
Wrong. Good interceptor pilots do their job and survive in 50 vs 50 fights. The major problem is that most interceptor pilots think of them self as being suicide tacklers and therefor they die like one. If you maneuver it right and don't have a retarded FC sending you off like flies interceptors are damn survivable.
On the scouting thing: I wanted to write a guide for scouting a long time ago, maybe I'll take the time for it now that I don't play anything at the moment, but here are the cliffnotes: Scouts are important in ANY fleet. Also their job can't be called boring at all. A winning start for any fleet is a FC and a scout who know how to work with each other and how each other ticks. Also those are the only two people who are allowed to talk on coms on a regular basis. Personally, if I don't FC and don't want to just sit back and relax I enjoy scouting the most.
Also, how the fuck can jumping into a hostile fleet and having to get as much information as possible to your FC before having to GTFO without dieing to 50 dudes be boring? You've got 30 seconds in which the FC has to decide based of your information what to do. And yes, saying "Ohmyfuckinggod theres quite some dudes here" just wasted 5 seconds of that time.
Being the scout is one of the most exciting things you can be in a fleet, srsly.
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On October 05 2010 06:57 r.Evo wrote:
If you maneuver it right and don't have a retarded FC sending you off like flies interceptors are damn survivable.
Or an FC that forgets where the hell he sends his scouts. *Looking at you Revo*
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On the scouting thing: I wanted to write a guide for scouting a long time ago, maybe I'll take the time for it now that I don't play anything at the moment, but here are the cliffnotes: Scouts are important in ANY fleet. Also their job can't be called boring at all. A winning start for any fleet is a FC and a scout who know how to work with each other and how each other ticks. Also those are the only two people who are allowed to talk on coms on a regular basis. Personally, if I don't FC and don't want to just sit back and relax I enjoy scouting the most.
Also, how the fuck can jumping into a hostile fleet and having to get as much information as possible to your FC before having to GTFO without dieing to 50 dudes be boring? You've got 30 seconds in which the FC has to decide based of your information what to do. And yes, saying "Ohmyfuckinggod theres quite some dudes here" just wasted 5 seconds of that time.
Meh between doing what you descibed, warping around safespots abusing the poor directional scanner and ninjaing onto killmails with my dual ac stiletto scouting is more of a stepping stone(to being an fc hurrdurr). That and keeping and arazu pointed for 1minute before the fleet go there.
For me it was fun for a while until people get dependant on you and you have to fly a inty just because the fc knows that you "know what the fuck to do"(onyxia video quote). That and spending several saturday nights sitting if from of you pc going: **-***(system) is empty
But if you've just got out of your rifter and want to do something excisting then go for it. And if you die in a fleet battle flying a ship that goes 4km/s, well then you probably shouldn't have left your drake.
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scout is the most entertaining/fulfilling job in a fleet after the fc. its also almost as important
but sometimes you just cant be fucking bothered to pay put in ~effort, so you just end up being dps dealer #27.
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On October 05 2010 07:03 pahndah wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 06:57 r.Evo wrote:
If you maneuver it right and don't have a retarded FC sending you off like flies interceptors are damn survivable.
Or an FC that forgets where the hell he sends his scouts. *Looking at you Revo*
Hahahaha.
"WHERE THE FUCK ARE YOU SRSLY WTF"
"you sent me here 10 minutes ago..."
"oh. sorry, forgot about you."
Happens every damn time I'm like "Okay, I need some people who can scout surrounding systems" :D
Also:
For me it was fun for a while until people get dependant on you and you have to fly a inty just because the fc knows that you "know what the fuck to do"(onyxia video quote). That and spending several saturday nights sitting if from of you pc going: **-***(system) is empty
Shush. The more people who know how to scout the less likely someone has to do it all the time. But, yeah, it's horrible if you as the FC have to backseat your scout. Those scouts usually die the first time they see an enemy ship though since they just suicide onto it and complain that the fleet wasn't close enough afterwards. This behaviour usually leads to famous quotes like:
Mukk: "Hey, revo, what are you in?"
Me: "Erhh... hurricane."
Mukk: "k, you scout."
or
Me: "Umm... I need a new scout, fuck this."
Mukk: "I can do it."
Me: "k, go ahead."
[...]
Me: "Why is this taking so long?"
Mukk: "I'm in a tempest."
Me: "Oh, np, take ur time."
I miss that sometimes, really. Also I really wonder if there's an answer to the "What are you in?"-question that would keep me out of trouble. Scimitar might work. Might tell me to go ahead and refit a point in the next station tho. >_<
(Sidenote: Yes, I'd rather have a competent scout in a fucking battleship than a newbscout in a ceptor.)
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battleship scouts are fucking awesome
jumping into a small gatecamp youre gonna be engaged immediately, nobody is gonna expect that a battleship is scouting for a fleet. especially when he's in a tempest lol
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Me: Okay there's 50 reds in system, bunch of cerbs and zealots and other stuff. They are landing on gate, can I jump back?
Revo: I need an accurate count Kizu.
Me: So you want me to stay here =_=
Revo: Yes
Me: ...+ Show Spoiler +*overheats MWD and burns up at 7km/s in my dram* FU revo, they almost killed me
Edit: Than I realized I couldn't have an online salvager in my Dramiel so I stopped scouting, and I never got used to a malediction after flying Dramiels.
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Hmm, how well does fleet stabber fit into AHAC gangs? Some say this is the best option for min characters in AHAC fleets, and it doesn't take a cruiser V and thus seems like a easy train.
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On October 05 2010 08:50 SWPIGWANG wrote:
Hmm, how well does fleet stabber fit into AHAC gangs? Some say this is the best option for min characters in AHAC fleets, and it doesn't take a cruiser V and thus seems like a easy train.
Stabber Fleet is a great ship, whether it's armor tanked or shield tanked. It's especially sexy as a nano'd up scout.
In AHAC gangs SFI usually has dualprop and dualtackle and is one of the main tacklers. Sometimes it carries remote ECCM for the guardians. It doesn't fit well into the concept, it's actually crucial. AHAC = Zealots, Guardians, SFIs.
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Not to mention that the agility, powergrid and slot layout on a SFI is like a cynabal had sex with a hurricane.
Sidenote: angel extravaganza is so effing long it makes me cry.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On October 04 2010 16:21 KwarK wrote:
Notes on liquidity, competition and economies of scale.
Basically we're getting 2-3k/LP here which is awesome but the problem is actually converting that LP into isk. Because what we're doing at the moment is some kind of disorganised undercutting mess where we're all trying to sell fast because we've got literally billions trapped in assets that we want to free up but none of us can be assed to actually sit in a hub babysitting sell orders or going 25j to find a better hub or any of that shit. While we all know we're getting rich from LP we're not actually getting rich, in fact what I'm doing at the moment is pumping what liquidity I have into creating more ammo with LP for more hypothetical value and while I'm theoretically very rich I have no actual isk.
This is a problem.
So, our specific issues.
Selling inefficiently. All getting the same ammo and flooding some hubs while ignoring others.
Competing with each other when our .01ing means everyone loses more.
Not doing a great job of competing because we're all too busy doing interesting things to pay too much attention to our orders.
The result is a liquidity crisis which in turn results in missing out on huge value when we eventually crack and either start using LP for ourselves like getting implants for personal use (less than 1k/lp) or selling to buy orders. This is an observable, quantifiable problem and it is one that we as a corp can solve through utilising our considerable liquidity and powers of centralisation.
My proposal is simple, that the corp acts as a middle man. That way a single person interested in doing in game trading could manage the sales without such a pressing need to convert assets into isk, without competition from himself and without disrupting the normal routine of members. By offering a rate (in the form of corp contract buy orders on LP items) significantly above the market buy orders but below the theoretical value of LP items there would be a method of quickly dumping LP and getting isk without the soul destroying feeling of selling to buy orders. With that many LP being spent it'd be worth whoever was doing this to provide continual, up to date data on the best items to make. Also the money would be staying in the corp.
We all know that our LP items are worth what we're selling them for, that's the going rate. The problem is simply that while they will eventually sell and we will eventually get our money we often simply cannot wait. We don't have the money lying around to play the long game so we are effectively paying richer players to do that waiting for us in exchange for short term shiny things. Well, if our corp was a player it'd be pretty rich and it's certainly in no real hurry to buy stuff. It's the perfect middle man.
This makes me really sad. If I were still playing I'd have already sold that shit at 1.2x market value or something. One of you guys needs to become competent at the market so that I can stop being sad.
Here are some tips:
If you need to get the ammo en masse to another hub, use Red Frog Freight so that you don't get suicide ganked. Google it.
When scouting out hubs, make sure to check the quantity graphs.
The designated corp seller should have daytrading trained so that he isn't confined to a station all day.
If you think you're up against a market bot, see how low it will go. Use small-ish quantities of ammo, and keep pushing the price lower and lower. See how low it will undercut you, and if you get it to a low enough price just buy it out.
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EPT
