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On March 17 2013 06:32 DefMatrixUltra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 05:17 Pretty Aluminum wrote:
Thanks a ton man. ... Once again thanks a ton for the post. ...Thanks again. Ok. + Show Spoiler [...] +
Hope you like the edited one better
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On March 16 2013 19:16 m4inbrain wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2013 19:10 Firebolt145 wrote: There is no 'on my level'. If you know how you can be making billions of isk per day a week after you start EVE. Shield battery can show you the way. Mining is not the way. Then again, "abusing" something without having learned the basics of something to me isn't the right way either. I'm not saying that how you do it is wrong, but i would feel like jumping a big part of the game. And with "on my level" i meant knowledge. It's a bit hard to explain what exactly i mean, it's a bit like starting with a DMR, Nightvisiongoggles and Ghilliesuit in DayZ, jumping the whole stuff that leads to it (and learning gamemechanics from scratch while doing it).
I wasn't going to respond to this at first.
The analogy you gave is very flawed. Making money in EVE is not some game mechanic or abstraction - it is much more like making money in reality. No one ever got rich by working their way up from janitorial staff to CEO through hard work and determination. Being a CEO is not a skill set that is the aggregate of all the other jobs below - it is a completely different skill set.
Being rich in EVE, just like in reality, is about finding an exploit in the system and taking it to its limit. The things you'd be skipping out on are things like delivering the office mail, getting yelled at by your boss because you fixed his coffee wrong, and scrubbing washrooms.
On March 17 2013 07:11 Pretty Aluminum wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 06:32 DefMatrixUltra wrote:On March 17 2013 05:17 Pretty Aluminum wrote:
Thanks a ton man. ... Once again thanks a ton for the post. ...Thanks again. Ok. + Show Spoiler [...] + Hope you like the edited one better
You will go far in EVE.
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United States41961 Posts
On March 17 2013 05:17 Pretty Aluminum wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2013 16:51 DefMatrixUltra wrote:On March 16 2013 12:05 Pretty Aluminum wrote:On March 16 2013 11:04 jopirg wrote: We also have a history of RTS games (Starcraft at least) and everyone here thinks it's good enough to play. What kind of answer were you expecting? You know something that would give me some context on the positives and negatives of the game and not just a generic "Of course its good because we play it!" But thanks for the response anyways. Something closer to this is what I was hoping for. There's no splitting up the positives and negatives in the game. It's all one big mash. That's part of the draw, actually. Everything is in some way connected to everything else like some ridiculous improbable machine. I could make a list of things that are wrong/negative with the game that is 10x bigger than for any other game. But the good stuff is damned good. The learning curve for this game is ludicrous if you don't have insiders filling you in. The reason for this is the ultraconnectivity of every system in the game. There are concepts in this game that are present in many other games. Space combat, market PVP, (bad) PVE, construction logistics flowcharts, loadout customization etc. The difference is that in EVE, all these things are ultimately inseparable. PVE is a cause and sometimes an effect of PVP. Every tangible item in the game (including ships and the weapons and modules they use) with very few exceptions is handled by, produced by, shipped by, and bought by players. That means everything from mining to ship combat is linked up to the "market" which is more of an abstract concept than it might first appear. There is a visible market where items are placed like commodities for sale at varying prices - driven by supply and demand and viewable through a simple interface. And behind the curtains there is the real market - the motivations behind purchases, the game and metagame events which shape supply and demand, the collusions and betrayals brought about by the wealthy, the important figures capable of exerting control over certain goods. And that's just the market. In gameplay terms, most people are interested solely in the ship combat. The combat system can be rough around the edges in some ways - there are lots of strange, unintuitive guidelines to follow. But the combat in this game can be extremely exhilarating - or extremely boring if you're approaching it the wrong way. If you join up with the TL crew, this will never be a concern, but know that some people (willingly) spend hours shooting stationary structures, for example. The ship combat is theoretically complex enough that it requires a 3rd-party program to have a good grasp on ship loadouts (if you think this is a negative, it isn't - ship combat theory is one of the more interesting aspects of the game). There are a lot of ships and theoretically very many loadouts for each ship, though good pilots are knowledgeable enough to shave many loadouts into a small set of good loadouts. There aren't any arenas for ship combat, though. Combat happens in the greater context of everything else in the game. The nature of combat changes drastically based on a huge number of factors - where you are geographically in the universe (and there's only 1 "server" that every player inhabits), player politics, market intrigues; not to mention what ship(s) you're flying. People come for the space combat and find that the richness of the rest of the game bleeds heavily into it. There's a region of space called Molden Heath ( http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Molden_Heath#sec in graph form) where one player (Ueberlisk http://teamliquid.killmail.org/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=768405 ) has terrorized visitors to the point where he's practically a legend (he also has legendary "luck" winning an out-of-game lottery, Somer Blink http://cogdev.net/blink/ ). See in the top left of that map where there's a gray box that says Magiko / Heimatar? Click it. Magiko is a star system in the region Heimatar. Look at all the gray boxes that lead to new regions. Each of these star systems has its own unique planets, asteroid fields, space stations. The universe, even though it's mapped out, is absolutely huge. Each region has its own character. The NPCs have different lore reasons for being there. The players in different regions have different behaviors. The PVP you can find in Molden Heath is very different from the PVP you can find in Curse or Lonetrek or Tribute etc. Each region has its own market, its own player politics, its different notable (or unnotable) inhabitants. Then there are the wormholes. Wormhole space is a separate universe unto itself but one that can't be mapped out - not permanently. In regular space, each star system is connected by a fixed network of star gates - that's why we can map it out in full. In wormhole space, your only connection to anywhere else is a wormhole which is only open for so long before it closes and another one opens elsewhere. These wormholes connect you semi-randomly (experts who have carefully mapped out their own wormhole systems know better than random travelers) to either other wormhole systems or to star systems in known space. And yet all these different places are effected by the same "global" economic and political factors - though in very different ways - just as the "global" economic and political factors are formed out of the whole of regional differences. You're unlikely to appreciate any of this stuff when you're new because there is so very much to absorb as a new player. But it's there waiting for you. You're a faggot 8=======D XD I know you're joking but try not to use the word faggot on tl as an insult, even in jest. It's something we're trying to let die out in the tl community.
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On March 17 2013 07:18 DefMatrixUltra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2013 19:16 m4inbrain wrote:On March 16 2013 19:10 Firebolt145 wrote: There is no 'on my level'. If you know how you can be making billions of isk per day a week after you start EVE. Shield battery can show you the way. Mining is not the way. Then again, "abusing" something without having learned the basics of something to me isn't the right way either. I'm not saying that how you do it is wrong, but i would feel like jumping a big part of the game. And with "on my level" i meant knowledge. It's a bit hard to explain what exactly i mean, it's a bit like starting with a DMR, Nightvisiongoggles and Ghilliesuit in DayZ, jumping the whole stuff that leads to it (and learning gamemechanics from scratch while doing it). I wasn't going to respond to this at first. The analogy you gave is very flawed. Making money in EVE is not some game mechanic or abstraction - it is much more like making money in reality. No one ever got rich by working their way up from janitorial staff to CEO through hard work and determination. Being a CEO is not a skill set that is the aggregate of all the other jobs below - it is a completely different skill set. Being rich in EVE, just like in reality, is about finding an exploit in the system and taking it to its limit. The things you'd be skipping out on are things like delivering the office mail, getting yelled at by your boss because you fixed his coffee wrong, and scrubbing washrooms. Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 07:11 Pretty Aluminum wrote:On March 17 2013 06:32 DefMatrixUltra wrote:On March 17 2013 05:17 Pretty Aluminum wrote:
Thanks a ton man. ... Once again thanks a ton for the post. ...Thanks again. Ok. + Show Spoiler [...] + Hope you like the edited one better You will go far in EVE.
While i don't disagree completely, even a CEO of something does know how a dishwasher works. Distribution networks, production chains, stuff like that. "Basic" stuff. One might be good without knowing that, but i want to know how things work.
edit: but i guess i will just stick to killing stuff for now, it's flashier.
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On March 17 2013 07:18 DefMatrixUltra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 07:11 Pretty Aluminum wrote:On March 17 2013 06:32 DefMatrixUltra wrote:On March 17 2013 05:17 Pretty Aluminum wrote:
Thanks a ton man. ... Once again thanks a ton for the post. ...Thanks again. Ok. + Show Spoiler [...] + Hope you like the edited one better You will go far in EVE.
Thanks a ton man. ... Once again thanks a ton for the post. ...Thanks again.
On March 17 2013 07:26 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 05:17 Pretty Aluminum wrote:On March 16 2013 16:51 DefMatrixUltra wrote:On March 16 2013 12:05 Pretty Aluminum wrote:On March 16 2013 11:04 jopirg wrote: We also have a history of RTS games (Starcraft at least) and everyone here thinks it's good enough to play. What kind of answer were you expecting? You know something that would give me some context on the positives and negatives of the game and not just a generic "Of course its good because we play it!" But thanks for the response anyways. Something closer to this is what I was hoping for. There's no splitting up the positives and negatives in the game. It's all one big mash. That's part of the draw, actually. Everything is in some way connected to everything else like some ridiculous improbable machine. I could make a list of things that are wrong/negative with the game that is 10x bigger than for any other game. But the good stuff is damned good. The learning curve for this game is ludicrous if you don't have insiders filling you in. The reason for this is the ultraconnectivity of every system in the game. There are concepts in this game that are present in many other games. Space combat, market PVP, (bad) PVE, construction logistics flowcharts, loadout customization etc. The difference is that in EVE, all these things are ultimately inseparable. PVE is a cause and sometimes an effect of PVP. Every tangible item in the game (including ships and the weapons and modules they use) with very few exceptions is handled by, produced by, shipped by, and bought by players. That means everything from mining to ship combat is linked up to the "market" which is more of an abstract concept than it might first appear. There is a visible market where items are placed like commodities for sale at varying prices - driven by supply and demand and viewable through a simple interface. And behind the curtains there is the real market - the motivations behind purchases, the game and metagame events which shape supply and demand, the collusions and betrayals brought about by the wealthy, the important figures capable of exerting control over certain goods. And that's just the market. In gameplay terms, most people are interested solely in the ship combat. The combat system can be rough around the edges in some ways - there are lots of strange, unintuitive guidelines to follow. But the combat in this game can be extremely exhilarating - or extremely boring if you're approaching it the wrong way. If you join up with the TL crew, this will never be a concern, but know that some people (willingly) spend hours shooting stationary structures, for example. The ship combat is theoretically complex enough that it requires a 3rd-party program to have a good grasp on ship loadouts (if you think this is a negative, it isn't - ship combat theory is one of the more interesting aspects of the game). There are a lot of ships and theoretically very many loadouts for each ship, though good pilots are knowledgeable enough to shave many loadouts into a small set of good loadouts. There aren't any arenas for ship combat, though. Combat happens in the greater context of everything else in the game. The nature of combat changes drastically based on a huge number of factors - where you are geographically in the universe (and there's only 1 "server" that every player inhabits), player politics, market intrigues; not to mention what ship(s) you're flying. People come for the space combat and find that the richness of the rest of the game bleeds heavily into it. There's a region of space called Molden Heath ( http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Molden_Heath#sec in graph form) where one player (Ueberlisk http://teamliquid.killmail.org/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=768405 ) has terrorized visitors to the point where he's practically a legend (he also has legendary "luck" winning an out-of-game lottery, Somer Blink http://cogdev.net/blink/ ). See in the top left of that map where there's a gray box that says Magiko / Heimatar? Click it. Magiko is a star system in the region Heimatar. Look at all the gray boxes that lead to new regions. Each of these star systems has its own unique planets, asteroid fields, space stations. The universe, even though it's mapped out, is absolutely huge. Each region has its own character. The NPCs have different lore reasons for being there. The players in different regions have different behaviors. The PVP you can find in Molden Heath is very different from the PVP you can find in Curse or Lonetrek or Tribute etc. Each region has its own market, its own player politics, its different notable (or unnotable) inhabitants. Then there are the wormholes. Wormhole space is a separate universe unto itself but one that can't be mapped out - not permanently. In regular space, each star system is connected by a fixed network of star gates - that's why we can map it out in full. In wormhole space, your only connection to anywhere else is a wormhole which is only open for so long before it closes and another one opens elsewhere. These wormholes connect you semi-randomly (experts who have carefully mapped out their own wormhole systems know better than random travelers) to either other wormhole systems or to star systems in known space. And yet all these different places are effected by the same "global" economic and political factors - though in very different ways - just as the "global" economic and political factors are formed out of the whole of regional differences. You're unlikely to appreciate any of this stuff when you're new because there is so very much to absorb as a new player. But it's there waiting for you. You're a faggot 8=======D XD I know you're joking but try not to use the word faggot on tl as an insult, even in jest. It's something we're trying to let die out in the tl community.
Sorry about that
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On March 16 2013 17:14 KwarK wrote:
Oracle is currently up to 50ish kills, pretty much all solo (sorry Orandos).
No love for your faithful tackle. How rude.
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United States41961 Posts
Welped my oracle trying to kill a rapier with a falcon on field. High grade grails and info links pushing me to 60 strength wasn't enough to block it.
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On March 17 2013 13:42 KwarK wrote: Welped my oracle trying to kill a rapier with a falcon on field. High grade grails and info links pushing me to 60 strength wasn't enough to block it.
welped my bomber because I didn't check loss mails to see if an omen I jumped was active tanked. Apparently a bomber cannot easily break a dual MAR omen before it dies.
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Welp. I've posted in this thread like a good 2 years back wishing to play. I ran through a 21 trial at one point but I has a job now and I'm actually getting into the game. New char and all; interestingly I'm coming after 2500 hours of dota... Is shield battery dead too now? Or I just misunderstood the previous page.
So... Yeah... Hi again o.o
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Russian Federation3631 Posts
On March 17 2013 14:29 DefMatrixUltra wrote: Falcon for CSM8. An idea for a module.
Working name is "good game mechanic"
Upon activation: 60% chance of reducing locked target ship hitpoints by 100% 40% chance of self-destruct activation with zero duration .1% chance of biomassing your character
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Poor Pretty Aluminium. Tries to find out what EVE is like, ends up being temp banned.
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United States41961 Posts
t2 locus does 4/3 of a TE. t2 ambit does 2/3 of a TE. t2 metastasis does 2x a TE. CCP balance.
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On March 17 2013 16:53 KwarK wrote: t2 locus does 4/3 of a TE. t2 ambit does 2/3 of a TE. t2 metastasis does 2x a TE. CCP balance.
Something something lasers better than other guns.
On March 17 2013 16:40 Valenius wrote: Poor Pretty Aluminium. Tries to find out what EVE is like, ends up being temp banned.
Antoine couldn't figure out whether his response was bad-mouthing Syndicate so decided to Take No Chances.
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United States41961 Posts
There is no system to this at all. But the t2 metastasis are really good. Considering making a tracking oracle, maybe with some improved/strong drop. Got a scorch oracle with comparable tracking to a dual TE nado with EMP. It's kinda interesting, for tracking ships your rig slots >>> your lows > mids, for sniping then your rigs > your lows > your mids. For falloff your lows >>> your mids > your rigs just because what the TE does makes no sense. Same with drugs, how much they do simply doesn't follow a pattern. There ought to be a nado equivalent of the frentix oracle but there just isn't because the rigs and drugs don't work. Also the reason I'm looking at tracking so much in my oracle is because I'm gonna snake it and put a nano on at which point I can actually start messing with frigs pretty easily I hope.
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Looking forward to your 20,000th post about some half-assed fit.
Scorch on Oracles: generally I can't see much benefit from tracking unless you're shooting frigs. If you're close enough for tracking to matter, you're very likely in range for MF - which would actually benefit a lot from extra tracking (pretty much the sole reason I can annihilate a Taranis in a Slicer even if tackled).
Locus rigs, while being significantly better than Ambits, are not nearly as good as a TE overall. But Metastasis are damned good. That's why people who put Locus rigs on Slicers are subhuman garbage.
KwarK edit: But def... I put locus on slicers. 
Def edit: QED
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On March 17 2013 07:18 DefMatrixUltra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2013 19:16 m4inbrain wrote:On March 16 2013 19:10 Firebolt145 wrote: There is no 'on my level'. If you know how you can be making billions of isk per day a week after you start EVE. Shield battery can show you the way. Mining is not the way. Then again, "abusing" something without having learned the basics of something to me isn't the right way either. I'm not saying that how you do it is wrong, but i would feel like jumping a big part of the game. And with "on my level" i meant knowledge. It's a bit hard to explain what exactly i mean, it's a bit like starting with a DMR, Nightvisiongoggles and Ghilliesuit in DayZ, jumping the whole stuff that leads to it (and learning gamemechanics from scratch while doing it). I wasn't going to respond to this at first. The analogy you gave is very flawed. Making money in EVE is not some game mechanic or abstraction - it is much more like making money in reality. No one ever got rich by working their way up from janitorial staff to CEO through hard work and determination. Being a CEO is not a skill set that is the aggregate of all the other jobs below - it is a completely different skill set. Being rich in EVE, just like in reality, is about finding an exploit in the system and taking it to its limit. The things you'd be skipping out on are things like delivering the office mail, getting yelled at by your boss because you fixed his coffee wrong, and scrubbing washrooms.
That however is also not 100% correct. If you lack the broad basics you cant find or come up with the exploits to make riches. We figured out w&g because collectively we had the knowledge of the contract system, the LP store and the mission running, we knew the bottlenecks and the how the system works, we then took it to the next level. The same for fw really. Again we knew about the LP store and about missioning(and blitzing), especially the latter almost no one seems to figure out. We then put 1+1 together (and i know kwarks gonna claim sole responsibility for it) and took it to the next level. Being taught the outcomes is nice, but you need to learn the methods too. Now i dont mean that you should ignore the advices we can give and start mining to get the basics covered, but use the advice and do your own research as well.
And on a slightly unrelated note, i feel like i have to redeem myself a bit for the last time i posted about dota.
+ Show Spoiler +Solo queued against 5 man stack, only slightly better stats than the 1-15 bh but totally different outcome. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/mAPeo0w.jpg)
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Being taught the outcomes is nice, but you need to learn the methods too. Now i dont mean that you should ignore the advices we can give and start mining to get the basics covered, but use the advice and do your own research as well.
That's what i meant. It's like cooking, a good cook knows how his material is produced. Every single cook/chef knows the basics, not just how to put caviar and truffle on a steak. I don't argue that it might be a bit wasteful timewise, but i for myself think it's good to know the basics. That includes mining as well as producing, mission running, and also mistakes. They might hurt, but they're also a lesson.
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Was the FW missioning nerfed somehow that it is no longer viable ? I know that the tier system now works differently but for example minmatar is t3 now would I be better of doing missions then orbiting buttons ?
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On March 17 2013 23:13 m4inbrain wrote:Show nested quote +Being taught the outcomes is nice, but you need to learn the methods too. Now i dont mean that you should ignore the advices we can give and start mining to get the basics covered, but use the advice and do your own research as well. That's what i meant. It's like cooking, a good cook knows how his material is produced. Every single cook/chef knows the basics, not just how to put caviar and truffle on a steak. I don't argue that it might be a bit wasteful timewise, but i for myself think it's good to know the basics. That includes mining as well as producing, mission running, and also mistakes. They might hurt, but they're also a lesson. Except Eve doesn't work like that, there is no feedback for doing badly at the money game, there is no active information that tells you that you are terrible. You spend time at a thing, and you get a result, and there isn't a list of ready results to compare to.
It's like cooking for people, yet those people don't tell you anything about how the meal is, and they give you the industry standard amount of money for the quality you have produced. And you go on, blissfully unaware that after they left the door they immediately admitted themselves into the emergency room of the local hospital only to die of massive internal bleeding an hour later.
This is why some people mine for isk, and they say it's good. They've invested so much time, and cannot realize or accept that what they have done, what they have laboured over, is less than the minimum wage at a sweat shop in Ethiopia, and yet they still drink the poop water.
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