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On March 18 2011 09:18 Vain wrote:Well my educated guess is that the skill level of dota is higher. Why do you ask? Well dota has been around for a while now while hon is relatively new and still ever changing so its in my opinion too soon to talk about balance. Based on how many people still play dota an how many people play hon and the fact that dota is around for a longer time i would say it takes more practise in dota than in hon to get at the top Link plox
Liquid Huk stream on TL.
Been playing Ih games with TL guys for a few hours now.
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![[image loading]](http://dl.dropbox.com/u/70857/wc3/WC3ScrnShot_031711_180543_09.jpg)
4v4 arshomem loool
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On March 18 2011 08:03 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 06:38 Rakanishu2 wrote:On March 18 2011 05:29 Durak wrote:Been busy so I haven't been able to respond to the active discussion in this wonderful thread of ours. Even though it might be better to let sleeping dogs lie, I like a challenge. On March 18 2011 01:16 Rakanishu2 wrote:On March 17 2011 23:53 hideo wrote:On March 17 2011 23:09 Rakanishu2 wrote:On March 17 2011 13:24 Judicator wrote:On March 17 2011 13:08 Rakanishu2 wrote:On March 17 2011 11:48 Goshawk. wrote:On March 16 2011 06:50 Rakanishu2 wrote:
[quote]
For someone who steps in and lectures me on debate tactics and formalities, coming in and saying I'm wrong without a "because" of your own, pretty much makes you a hypocrite.
And I'd love to talk to either of you in PMs, I don't want to crap on this thread like you would like to. But neither of you has made it to that step yet.
HoN gets more variety into the picks, all 3 different styles of game have been succesfully achieved (heavy farm-carry based, Gank-heavy style, Push heavy style), there's much more variety in the heros picked when compared to DotA. So in terms of more skill being needed, there's inherently more variety in high level HoN, which insinuates more knowledge and skill being required.
Several of the items were better balanced, making some of the useless ones from DotA really have solid roles (Hand of Midas --> alch bones comes to mind as a recent example), you see much more variety in the items picks, all 5 different types of boots get selected often for a concrete example, striders being brought in makes heavy support roles much more skill-oriented.
But really, I'm not going to sit here and list all the small differences that make HoN more varied and demanding than DotA, if you want to talk, take it to PMs.
The fact you can even think HoN can have "a far" greater skill level when the games are relatively similar is crazy. 1. The viable hero pool in dota is larger than HoNs. HoN has 75 heroes in total, in ONE 2010 Dota tournament (SMM) 72 unique heroes were picked. Hmmm. Source.2. Have you ever played support for a good team in dota? There's a lot more to it than buying wards and placing them. 3. Dota is played a lot more and a lot higher level both in EU and in Asia. Have you even seen the Chinese dota scene? And as Judicator said, basing your opinions on a old version of dota that you played a bit and a game you currently play and follow is just amazingly dumb. Hilarious. I don't think anyone in this thread is capable of even getting through my post, no one seems to have read it, at all. Across 4 times I've been quoted, 2 of the points I have made have been addressed, and only 1 successfully. Congrats, you've countered 1 of my 9 points. Well done! Also, I posted my MMR because someone basically said that I "tried" it and didn't have much experience in it. I'm not a braggart, nor do I think my MMR itself validates my opinion I already knew I wouldn't convince anyone to change their opinion, you love DotA, and you hate to see a game take everything great about it, and get rid of so many bad parts of the game. I love DotA too guys. I love it too. My favorite parts of your hilarious flailing against my point of view: 1) telling me how hard ward whoring is (completely off-topic and a perfect exhibition of inability to read before blathering) 2) Calling me an A-hole scrub because someone asking for the level of my ingame experience and me giving it to them 3) Showing me a list of heros picked in DotA, and once again using the fact that DotA has more heroes total as evidence that it takes more skill. 4) Posting that "quantity < quality" point completely invalidates everything you've posted. Thank you for letting me know exactly how little you know about HoN and matchmaking, nothing. I took the time to play both games before flailing, could you be so kind?  idiot. I'm sorry, but you guys missed the mark. If you want to get trashed by this scrub in either game, hit me up! Oh wait, I don't think any of you have the MMR to run into me in HoN. see, I can be petty and infantile too! Edit: adding to the list of hilarious flailing against my posts, sorry there was just too much Not as hilarious as your inability to defend your original claims. Notice how nobody is even attempting to support your claims for you...1743 MMR is good bro, as good as those DXD players... Like I said, you are avoiding specifics completely, just made some claims then couldn't back them up when pressed for it. Specifics > generalities, basic argument making dude HoN gets more variety into the picks, all 3 different styles of game have been succesfully achieved (heavy farm-carry based, Gank-heavy style, Push heavy style), there's much more variety in the heros picked when compared to DotA. So in terms of more skill being needed, there's inherently more variety in high level HoN, which insinuates more knowledge and skill being required. Several of the items were better balanced, making some of the useless ones from DotA really have solid roles (Hand of Midas --> alch bones comes to mind as a recent example), you see much more variety in the items picks, all 5 different types of boots get selected often for a concrete example, striders being brought in makes heavy support roles much more skill-oriented. Reposted because you said I don't mention specifics. I'm not going to argue with you if you refuse to read. The reason why nobody acknowledged your points is because they're all flat-out wrong. There are not just 3 specific styles set in stone. If you've watched any high level DotA matches within the past year you'd know that most successful teams have very organic play. There's no reason why (with good team composition) you can't have a hard carry farming non-stop AND down towers before the 10min mark AND pull off necessary ganks. This happens all the time when the stronger teams come out to play. The much-maligned single carry focus turtle-style is used by like 2 or so Chinese teams and I imagine that's just because their carry players are so damned good at farming. A morphling with 3-4 tier 4 items by 30min is a lot safer to bank on then your risky early push and gank strats, and that's what pro teams care about: winning. Even then, many Chinese teams incorporate aggressive gank and pushing styles, especially in series. If you look to SEA and European play you'll find all the ganking and pushing you want. Go watch a Filipino game and you'll find more aggression and higher ganking + pushing tempo than any HoN game I've seen. Your point about hero variety has already been refuted. The metagame is not static and a huge number of heroes have gone in and out of fashion over time. Just the last SMM and you can see the amount of experimentation and strategic picks is considerable in DotA. Phase boots, arcane boots, power treads all see their fair share of competitive usage, and travels don't see any more use in HoN than they do in DotA. Read rabidch's post again and you'll see that the number of items that are never used is completely comparable to HoN. If you look at the competitive HoN scene, it's very telling when the pioneering team, FnaticMSI, made its name by adopting hero, item, laning combinations and strategies from competitive DotA. I didn't say that teams pigeon-holed themselves to one of those three style, I simply said that all three styles come into play in HoN, unlike high-level DotA, where I would say there just isn't as much ganking or pushing. Look, you can tell me DotA is organic and requires alot of skill, it does, DotA is very high level and strategic. But HoN chiseled out some of the problems in DotA that caused skill ceilings. I already know I won't convince you, you're just going to have to get to a decent MMR in HoN and see it for yourself. Welcome to the HoN/Dota thread. Sorry that I've only shown up after the mud-slinging already occurred. Here are a few things you need to know about the thread before trying to start any discussions: 1. Many people who read this thread are better than you at HoN and DotA. You should expect this in any specialized thread you read on TL. 2. The majority of the people who post in this thread know eachother. 3. The aforementioned people don't bother posting full replies to new posters that make ridiculous claims. With those in mind, let me point out a few remarks you made and the reason they got the response that they did. On March 11 2011 09:02 Rakanishu2 wrote:
From someone who played all three extensively, HoN requires the most knowledge and skill, by far. People in this thread instantly write you off since you appear to think you're better than everyone (and they know you're not by this statement) and you begin an argument that is useless and retarded. On March 15 2011 06:23 JeeJee wrote:On March 15 2011 05:10 Rakanishu2 wrote:On March 14 2011 06:30 Firereaver wrote:On March 11 2011 09:02 Rakanishu2 wrote:
From someone who played all three extensively, HoN requires the most knowledge and skill, by far. LOOOOOOOOOOLololololol. HoN requires more knowledge and skill than DotA!????! Seriously just quit plaing straightaway if you think so. Please spectate some professional DotA and then see if you can tolerate any professional HoN ! Also while you're at it, you have all the freedom to stop spouting BS like that! Sorry, it's true. before you reply: take it to PMs, I'm not going to argue with you in public when that's the way you address posts. how can it be unequivocally true? you certainly didn't do any studies on it and i seriously doubt 'playing all three extensively' constitutes anything other than opinion, provided you played none of the three at a remotely high level so i suggest "sorry, it's true" should be rephrased to "sorry, i think it's true based on X" and then we can debate X because as of right now, you are definitely wrong. JeeJee gives you a good reply in the context of the norm in this thread. You're right, he ends the post with, "you are definitely wrong" which has no support either. However, that's because people aren't going to bother with full responses to opinions that are considered wrong by the majority and, therefore, have a huge burden of proof. On March 16 2011 08:13 Judicator wrote:
Rakanishu2's post can be summed up as:
Hi I haven't paid too close attention to either HoN or DotA but I'll try to compare them using some flimsy logic and arguments that sounds right in my head and spit them out there as fact.
There's no debate because I can simply rattle off all of the popular strategies and heroes since 6.27...OH WAIT I ALREADY DID. Judicator's post may seem curt but that's because everyone has already judged you as someone who thinks they're amazing at HoN and comes in spurting out "truths". On March 17 2011 08:54 Rakanishu2 wrote:On March 16 2011 08:13 Judicator wrote:
Rakanishu2's post can be summed up as:
Hi I haven't paid too close attention to either HoN or DotA but I'll try to compare them using some flimsy logic and arguments that sounds right in my head and spit them out there as fact.
There's no debate because I can simply rattle off all of the popular strategies and heroes since 6.27...OH WAIT I ALREADY DID. I played alot of DotA back in it's hay, and I have 1734 MMR normal mode in HoN. I still play HoN regularly. Again, the majority of people in this thread have been watching and playing DotA longer than you. They are good and a number have been on competitive teams. The same goes for HoN; a lot of the posters here are 1800+ MMR. Also, the ones who know a lot of DotA also have tried/play/know about HoN. Gotta disappear for a while again. Didn't have a chance to read over this post so hopefully I don't sound like a dick. Thanks for the well-thought out post. Just as before, I didn't say my experience made me correct, just like rebutting with yours/theirs doesn't make you right. People asked me for my experience, and I provided it. Apparently I have to explain this to you 3 times before you catch it, perhaps more. I don't care if they're a tightly knit-group who shun differing opinions. They're going to defend the game they enjoy more. Conveniently, I enjoyed both games thoroughly, and thought I would provide my 2 cents. You guys can play and love DotA, more power to you, but HoN brings more to the table in my opinion. Ok so what was the point of your post then? You didn't say present your opinion as opinion, but rather facts, but that's cool too. Yet when we asked you to prove your opinion's merit (otherwise the alternative is that you are just blabbering random shit), you got real defensive and didn't really provide anything concrete. My original post to you was just skipping all those in between steps because if you were anywhere as good as you believed yourself to be, you could have provided them easily, but you knee jerk with a "take this to PM" which makes us think that your opinion isn't worth shit to be discussed on a forum...in a thread dedicated to both games in question... Also, when I talk about skill, I am not referring to your ranking and shit, could care less about that shit, where and who you play with is a hell of lot more indicative of your skill and intelligence than any rating/ranking can provide.
Sorry guys, I know quoting my posts should be a strong indicator that you read them, but so far, none of you has made it through a post and effectively replied yet.
I'm not going to sit here and keep repeating myself when all I get in return is "LALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!"
But watching you guys squirm when I present a commonly accepted notion (DotA lower skill ceiling than HoN), and lash out at the assailant is pretty hilarious. I guess I chose the wrong thread to come in and educate!
See! I can be condescending too. 8)
User was temp banned for this post.
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On March 18 2011 09:00 rabidch wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 08:01 OmgIRok wrote:On March 17 2011 22:27 don_kyuhote wrote:Guys, we need more TL people to play dota with us. Nothing serious, nothing competitive, just all fun. This is how our typical dota game looks like: + Show Spoiler +Reactions: + Show Spoiler +RabidCh SexU (OmgIRok) vjekpleh And then we win the game with Rabid + 3 and a pub with Me + don_kyuhote + 3 pubs? LOOOOOL 2EZZZZZZZ i had +2 with a pub potm that went sny/ethereal when the other team had morph drow invoker + some other carry our storm left
Morph, Drow, Invoker, Sniper.
The Drow aura became a factor late game tee hee.
Btw, Morph is from now on "Water", sniper called it.
It's the newest addition to our nickname collection.
Gotta catch'em all!
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On March 18 2011 06:27 GenoZStriker wrote:
LOL yeah that was pretty bullshit, I'd be surprised if Croatia doesn't receive a warning or penalty for that. Dodging a save for some stupidity. But WTF is up with DK's picks?
practically an all in strategy. spectre would just rape late game and it got there especially when all the lane swapping around occurred. i dont even know why its RR on gosugamers
edit:
nitro, you are playing this weekend, but i am not home this weekend.
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On March 18 2011 09:21 GenoZStriker wrote:
How often do you all play? -_- I'm very very rusty in DotA.
Whenever we play it's spontaneous lol. But i would say atleast 2 games a day
There's almost always one game after we all get home from school (around 4pm pst)
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On March 18 2011 11:47 rabidch wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 06:27 GenoZStriker wrote:
LOL yeah that was pretty bullshit, I'd be surprised if Croatia doesn't receive a warning or penalty for that. Dodging a save for some stupidity. But WTF is up with DK's picks? practically an all in strategy. spectre would just rape late game and it got there especially when all the lane swapping around occurred. i dont even know why its RR on gosugamers edit: nitro, you are playing this weekend, but i am not home this weekend.
Neither is he; it's like a super secret slumber party at someone else's.
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On March 18 2011 09:21 GenoZStriker wrote:
How often do you all play? -_- I'm very very rusty in DotA.
well i play like 3-4 games of hon a day. AND I STILL SUCK
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Dear RabidCh,
I want to sincerely apologize for my actions on March 16th, 2011, during our DotA match. First off my gameplay as Rikimaru was atrocious, from beginning to end. My -cs was non-existent, and my kill-death record was worse, at a staggering 1/6/2, and this was all before 15 minutes of gameplay had passed. I could always try to blame this score on my laning partner, saying that he was incompetent, but I am afraid that this time it was the other way around, and the only person to lay blame on is myself.
After playing so utterly horrible I then stooped to an even lower level by rage quitting from the game. I could have tried to redeem myself and just farmed up and acted like a carry late game. Sure it would have been tough, as I only had boots and a Wraith Band, but it wasn't to late for it to be done. Especially with iSexU singing on TeamSpeak, his voice is beautiful and anyone can find inspiration simply by hearing his wonderful voice (Autotune is not needed, but it does add a nice touch to his singing capability). But instead, I chose to take the easy road out, and I will never forgive myself for those childish actions.
I also want to apologize for what my actions led to, which in the end was our defeat. Had I played, better, or had I even just stayed around to help out, I am sure that we could have pulled through with a win. This is what I am most sorry for, for letting down my fellow teammates during a DotA match. I promise that I will never abandon my teammates like that again, and I hope that you and the rest of the team can forgive me for letting my you all down and for playing so poorly. I am truly sorry RabidCh.
Sincerely,
Travitus
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Travis, you're so cute ^^
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On March 18 2011 12:26 Travitus wrote:
Dear RabidCh,
I want to sincerely apologize for my actions on March 16th, 2011, during our DotA match. First off my gameplay as Rikimaru was atrocious, from beginning to end. My -cs was non-existent, and my kill-death record was worse, at a staggering 1/6/2, and this was all before 15 minutes of gameplay had passed. I could always try to blame this score on my laning partner, saying that he was incompetent, but I am afraid that this time it was the other way around, and the only person to lay blame on is myself.
After playing so utterly horrible I then stooped to an even lower level by rage quitting from the game. I could have tried to redeem myself and just farmed up and acted like a carry late game. Sure it would have been tough, as I only had boots and a Wraith Band, but it wasn't to late for it to be done. Especially with iSexU singing on TeamSpeak, his voice is beautiful and anyone can find inspiration simply by hearing his wonderful voice (Autotune is not needed, but it does add a nice touch to his singing capability). But instead, I chose to take the easy road out, and I will never forgive myself for those childish actions.
I also want to apologize for what my actions led to, which in the end was our defeat. Had I played, better, or had I even just stayed around to help out, I am sure that we could have pulled through with a win. This is what I am most sorry for, for letting down my fellow teammates during a DotA match. I promise that I will never abandon my teammates like that again, and I hope that you and the rest of the team can forgive me for letting my you all down and for playing so poorly. I am truly sorry RabidCh.
Sincerely,
Travitus
There is one and only one reason why you failed as riki.
It's because you didn't rush diffusal before boot like you always do!
You deviate from what you do best, you get this, shitty performance.
Also that fact that you guys ran into a brick wall that is SexU didn't help your cause either.
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On March 18 2011 12:26 Travitus wrote:
Dear RabidCh,
I want to sincerely apologize for my actions on March 16th, 2011, during our DotA match. First off my gameplay as Rikimaru was atrocious, from beginning to end. My -cs was non-existent, and my kill-death record was worse, at a staggering 1/6/2, and this was all before 15 minutes of gameplay had passed. I could always try to blame this score on my laning partner, saying that he was incompetent, but I am afraid that this time it was the other way around, and the only person to lay blame on is myself.
After playing so utterly horrible I then stooped to an even lower level by rage quitting from the game. I could have tried to redeem myself and just farmed up and acted like a carry late game. Sure it would have been tough, as I only had boots and a Wraith Band, but it wasn't to late for it to be done. Especially with iSexU singing on TeamSpeak, his voice is beautiful and anyone can find inspiration simply by hearing his wonderful voice (Autotune is not needed, but it does add a nice touch to his singing capability). But instead, I chose to take the easy road out, and I will never forgive myself for those childish actions.
I also want to apologize for what my actions led to, which in the end was our defeat. Had I played, better, or had I even just stayed around to help out, I am sure that we could have pulled through with a win. This is what I am most sorry for, for letting down my fellow teammates during a DotA match. I promise that I will never abandon my teammates like that again, and I hope that you and the rest of the team can forgive me for letting my you all down and for playing so poorly. I am truly sorry RabidCh.
Sincerely,
Travitus
Awwwwwwww why can't everybody be as wonderful and sincere as you?
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OMG...LOL
User was warned for this post
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What do you guys think about Thunderbringer bottle first in mid? Doesn't seem as terrible since you are using CL to last hit + harass and your last hit sucks tons in the first place anyways.
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On March 18 2011 14:48 GhostKorean wrote:
What do you guys think about Thunderbringer bottle first in mid? Doesn't seem as terrible since you are using CL to last hit + harass and your last hit sucks tons in the first place anyways.
I think it depends on whether or not your team needs you to buy chick/wards at the start. Even if you do end up buying chick/wards clarities solve the problem either way; chain lightning's mana cost is cheap and 2 clarities worth of mana is usually enough to get you the bottle money.
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its bad unless you know exactly what you are doing and are playing proper games - below ~1800 some clarities & stats are always better because you can just outplay your opponent and get your bottle within two minutes anyway.
the reason someone might go bottle first is to ferry it 24/7 in a matchup he doesnt think he can win, but that only makes sense, as i said, in proper games.
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On March 18 2011 15:24 Glull wrote:
its bad unless you know exactly what you are doing and are playing proper games - below ~1800 some clarities & stats are always better because you can just outplay your opponent and get your bottle within two minutes anyway.
the reason someone might go bottle first is to ferry it 24/7 in a matchup he doesnt think he can win, but that only makes sense, as i said, in proper games.
Yes, bottle crowing with zeus spamming chain lightning is mostly for tri-lanes anyway, in which case the other team won't trilane mid because of the uphill anyway
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I've been thinking of starting items for Thunderbringer and I've tried 4 minor totems to rush the bottle and use them for power supply but I'm thinking getting the mana battery + 2 clarities and minor totems might be decent. Thoughts?
Further elaborating on the build: when I use the full 600 starting gold I find that I'm not always able to get my bottle by 2 minutes. Factoring in the time it takes the courier to travel and the fact that it's usually not a crow by then delays the bottle further. Obviously the bottle already comes with three charges but I always have to use it a couple of times to regain my mana. Against the people I play the mid will try to get the 2 min rune vs tb to stop some of the cl spam but I want the rune for possibly the free lane win so I've been spending only 200 gold getting 4 minor totems and getting the bottle as quickly as possible. This always gets my bottle before the 2 minute mark but I feel that the bottle first build allows a couple of things that the +4 stats doesn't
1. I have a chance to bottle the 00 rune, potentially regen or dd
2. I can position myself a little more aggressively with the extra hp regen on the bottle. Not sure if this is even true because I haven't had the time to actually test this out but sometimes when I run the 4 stats I'm hanging back out of range not even last hitting with my auto attack because I'm low on hp
3. When the courier arrives I need to wall back to the tower to pick it up because my lane is usually pushed up a bit due to cl(maybe I'm not doing it correctly?) resulting on losing a couple of ck and exp
Now everyone says "you need the stats" but I'm wondering if they are really necessary for tb. You get 4 str for the hp but at level 1 nobody is goin to burst you down from near full to 0 so the bottle gives a bit of hp regen that I'll be skipping if I go 4 minor totems. Only time I'd be concerned with hp is if I get ganked pre 00 or at rune (also is it just me or does hb bot feel safer at 00 than legion top)
The +4 dmg helps a lot with last hitting but I'm thinking aggressive play with the bottle can force the other solo to back off. Not sure about this one
Also I need 100 less gold for my power supply
I don't think it's a terrible build and I'm gonna be trying it out but I'm starting to lean more towards mana battery+2minor totems(for power supply)+2 clarities
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