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I invite Huk to TL's HoN clan on stream. He pauses obviously reads it. Decides NAHHHHHHH clicks cancel. Dick move huk...Dick move
D:
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Been busy so I haven't been able to respond to the active discussion in this wonderful thread of ours. Even though it might be better to let sleeping dogs lie, I like a challenge.
On March 18 2011 01:16 Rakanishu2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 23:53 hideo wrote:On March 17 2011 23:09 Rakanishu2 wrote:On March 17 2011 13:24 Judicator wrote:On March 17 2011 13:08 Rakanishu2 wrote:On March 17 2011 11:48 Goshawk. wrote:On March 16 2011 06:50 Rakanishu2 wrote:On March 15 2011 06:23 JeeJee wrote:On March 15 2011 05:10 Rakanishu2 wrote:On March 14 2011 06:30 Firereaver wrote:
[quote]
LOOOOOOOOOOLololololol.
HoN requires more knowledge and skill than DotA!????!
Seriously just quit plaing straightaway if you think so. Please spectate some professional DotA and then see if you can tolerate any professional HoN !
Also while you're at it, you have all the freedom to stop spouting BS like that! Sorry, it's true. before you reply: take it to PMs, I'm not going to argue with you in public when that's the way you address posts. how can it be unequivocally true? you certainly didn't do any studies on it and i seriously doubt 'playing all three extensively' constitutes anything other than opinion, provided you played none of the three at a remotely high level so i suggest "sorry, it's true" should be rephrased to "sorry, i think it's true based on X" and then we can debate X because as of right now, you are definitely wrong. For someone who steps in and lectures me on debate tactics and formalities, coming in and saying I'm wrong without a "because" of your own, pretty much makes you a hypocrite. And I'd love to talk to either of you in PMs, I don't want to crap on this thread like you would like to. But neither of you has made it to that step yet. HoN gets more variety into the picks, all 3 different styles of game have been succesfully achieved (heavy farm-carry based, Gank-heavy style, Push heavy style), there's much more variety in the heros picked when compared to DotA. So in terms of more skill being needed, there's inherently more variety in high level HoN, which insinuates more knowledge and skill being required. Several of the items were better balanced, making some of the useless ones from DotA really have solid roles (Hand of Midas --> alch bones comes to mind as a recent example), you see much more variety in the items picks, all 5 different types of boots get selected often for a concrete example, striders being brought in makes heavy support roles much more skill-oriented. But really, I'm not going to sit here and list all the small differences that make HoN more varied and demanding than DotA, if you want to talk, take it to PMs. The fact you can even think HoN can have "a far" greater skill level when the games are relatively similar is crazy. 1. The viable hero pool in dota is larger than HoNs. HoN has 75 heroes in total, in ONE 2010 Dota tournament (SMM) 72 unique heroes were picked. Hmmm. Source.2. Have you ever played support for a good team in dota? There's a lot more to it than buying wards and placing them. 3. Dota is played a lot more and a lot higher level both in EU and in Asia. Have you even seen the Chinese dota scene? And as Judicator said, basing your opinions on a old version of dota that you played a bit and a game you currently play and follow is just amazingly dumb. Hilarious. I don't think anyone in this thread is capable of even getting through my post, no one seems to have read it, at all. Across 4 times I've been quoted, 2 of the points I have made have been addressed, and only 1 successfully. Congrats, you've countered 1 of my 9 points. Well done! Also, I posted my MMR because someone basically said that I "tried" it and didn't have much experience in it. I'm not a braggart, nor do I think my MMR itself validates my opinion I already knew I wouldn't convince anyone to change their opinion, you love DotA, and you hate to see a game take everything great about it, and get rid of so many bad parts of the game. I love DotA too guys. I love it too. My favorite parts of your hilarious flailing against my point of view: 1) telling me how hard ward whoring is (completely off-topic and a perfect exhibition of inability to read before blathering) 2) Calling me an A-hole scrub because someone asking for the level of my ingame experience and me giving it to them 3) Showing me a list of heros picked in DotA, and once again using the fact that DotA has more heroes total as evidence that it takes more skill. 4) Posting that "quantity < quality" point completely invalidates everything you've posted. Thank you for letting me know exactly how little you know about HoN and matchmaking, nothing. I took the time to play both games before flailing, could you be so kind?  idiot. I'm sorry, but you guys missed the mark. If you want to get trashed by this scrub in either game, hit me up! Oh wait, I don't think any of you have the MMR to run into me in HoN. see, I can be petty and infantile too! Edit: adding to the list of hilarious flailing against my posts, sorry there was just too much Not as hilarious as your inability to defend your original claims. Notice how nobody is even attempting to support your claims for you...1743 MMR is good bro, as good as those DXD players... Like I said, you are avoiding specifics completely, just made some claims then couldn't back them up when pressed for it. Specifics > generalities, basic argument making dude HoN gets more variety into the picks, all 3 different styles of game have been succesfully achieved (heavy farm-carry based, Gank-heavy style, Push heavy style), there's much more variety in the heros picked when compared to DotA. So in terms of more skill being needed, there's inherently more variety in high level HoN, which insinuates more knowledge and skill being required. Several of the items were better balanced, making some of the useless ones from DotA really have solid roles (Hand of Midas --> alch bones comes to mind as a recent example), you see much more variety in the items picks, all 5 different types of boots get selected often for a concrete example, striders being brought in makes heavy support roles much more skill-oriented. Reposted because you said I don't mention specifics. I'm not going to argue with you if you refuse to read. The reason why nobody acknowledged your points is because they're all flat-out wrong. There are not just 3 specific styles set in stone. If you've watched any high level DotA matches within the past year you'd know that most successful teams have very organic play. There's no reason why (with good team composition) you can't have a hard carry farming non-stop AND down towers before the 10min mark AND pull off necessary ganks. This happens all the time when the stronger teams come out to play. The much-maligned single carry focus turtle-style is used by like 2 or so Chinese teams and I imagine that's just because their carry players are so damned good at farming. A morphling with 3-4 tier 4 items by 30min is a lot safer to bank on then your risky early push and gank strats, and that's what pro teams care about: winning. Even then, many Chinese teams incorporate aggressive gank and pushing styles, especially in series. If you look to SEA and European play you'll find all the ganking and pushing you want. Go watch a Filipino game and you'll find more aggression and higher ganking + pushing tempo than any HoN game I've seen. Your point about hero variety has already been refuted. The metagame is not static and a huge number of heroes have gone in and out of fashion over time. Just the last SMM and you can see the amount of experimentation and strategic picks is considerable in DotA. Phase boots, arcane boots, power treads all see their fair share of competitive usage, and travels don't see any more use in HoN than they do in DotA. Read rabidch's post again and you'll see that the number of items that are never used is completely comparable to HoN. If you look at the competitive HoN scene, it's very telling when the pioneering team, FnaticMSI, made its name by adopting hero, item, laning combinations and strategies from competitive DotA. I didn't say that teams pigeon-holed themselves to one of those three style, I simply said that all three styles come into play in HoN, unlike high-level DotA, where I would say there just isn't as much ganking or pushing. Look, you can tell me DotA is organic and requires alot of skill, it does, DotA is very high level and strategic. But HoN chiseled out some of the problems in DotA that caused skill ceilings. I already know I won't convince you, you're just going to have to get to a decent MMR in HoN and see it for yourself.
Welcome to the HoN/Dota thread. Sorry that I've only shown up after the mud-slinging already occurred. Here are a few things you need to know about the thread before trying to start any discussions:
1. Many people who read this thread are better than you at HoN and DotA. You should expect this in any specialized thread you read on TL.
2. The majority of the people who post in this thread know eachother.
3. The aforementioned people don't bother posting full replies to new posters that make ridiculous claims.
With those in mind, let me point out a few remarks you made and the reason they got the response that they did.
On March 11 2011 09:02 Rakanishu2 wrote:
From someone who played all three extensively, HoN requires the most knowledge and skill, by far.
People in this thread instantly write you off since you appear to think you're better than everyone (and they know you're not by this statement) and you begin an argument that is useless and retarded.
On March 15 2011 06:23 JeeJee wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2011 05:10 Rakanishu2 wrote:On March 14 2011 06:30 Firereaver wrote:On March 11 2011 09:02 Rakanishu2 wrote:
From someone who played all three extensively, HoN requires the most knowledge and skill, by far. LOOOOOOOOOOLololololol. HoN requires more knowledge and skill than DotA!????! Seriously just quit plaing straightaway if you think so. Please spectate some professional DotA and then see if you can tolerate any professional HoN ! Also while you're at it, you have all the freedom to stop spouting BS like that! Sorry, it's true. before you reply: take it to PMs, I'm not going to argue with you in public when that's the way you address posts. how can it be unequivocally true? you certainly didn't do any studies on it and i seriously doubt 'playing all three extensively' constitutes anything other than opinion, provided you played none of the three at a remotely high level so i suggest "sorry, it's true" should be rephrased to "sorry, i think it's true based on X" and then we can debate X because as of right now, you are definitely wrong.
JeeJee gives you a good reply in the context of the norm in this thread. You're right, he ends the post with, "you are definitely wrong" which has no support either. However, that's because people aren't going to bother with full responses to opinions that are considered wrong by the majority and, therefore, have a huge burden of proof.
On March 16 2011 08:13 Judicator wrote:
Rakanishu2's post can be summed up as:
Hi I haven't paid too close attention to either HoN or DotA but I'll try to compare them using some flimsy logic and arguments that sounds right in my head and spit them out there as fact.
There's no debate because I can simply rattle off all of the popular strategies and heroes since 6.27...OH WAIT I ALREADY DID.
Judicator's post may seem curt but that's because everyone has already judged you as someone who thinks they're amazing at HoN and comes in spurting out "truths".
On March 17 2011 08:54 Rakanishu2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 08:13 Judicator wrote:
Rakanishu2's post can be summed up as:
Hi I haven't paid too close attention to either HoN or DotA but I'll try to compare them using some flimsy logic and arguments that sounds right in my head and spit them out there as fact.
There's no debate because I can simply rattle off all of the popular strategies and heroes since 6.27...OH WAIT I ALREADY DID. I played alot of DotA back in it's hay, and I have 1734 MMR normal mode in HoN. I still play HoN regularly.
Again, the majority of people in this thread have been watching and playing DotA longer than you. They are good and a number have been on competitive teams.
The same goes for HoN; a lot of the posters here are 1800+ MMR. Also, the ones who know a lot of DotA also have tried/play/know about HoN.
Gotta disappear for a while again. Didn't have a chance to read over this post so hopefully I don't sound like a dick.
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On March 18 2011 01:37 Nitrogen wrote:yo so this argument is retarded and boring, just stop imo. rabid how often do u doter now? i've been thinking about playing again. on an unrelated note, i got that gas chamber video rabid, u should check it out. if you go to 8:03 i'm on the left side haha + Show Spoiler +
everyday
fucking couriers are so small i cant click on shit
thats a fucking skill ceiling needs to be fixed
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On March 17 2011 22:27 don_kyuhote wrote:Guys, we need more TL people to play dota with us. Nothing serious, nothing competitive, just all fun. This is how our typical dota game looks like: + Show Spoiler +Reactions: + Show Spoiler +RabidCh SexU (OmgIRok) vjekpleh
Do you play on B.net or through Garena?
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On March 18 2011 06:20 GenoZStriker wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 22:27 don_kyuhote wrote:Guys, we need more TL people to play dota with us. Nothing serious, nothing competitive, just all fun. This is how our typical dota game looks like: + Show Spoiler +Reactions: + Show Spoiler +RabidCh SexU (OmgIRok) vjekpleh Do you play on B.net or through Garena?
LOL SAME LANES rage
garena.
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LOL yeah that was pretty bullshit, I'd be surprised if Croatia doesn't receive a warning or penalty for that. Dodging a save for some stupidity. But WTF is up with DK's picks?
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On March 18 2011 05:29 Durak wrote:Been busy so I haven't been able to respond to the active discussion in this wonderful thread of ours. Even though it might be better to let sleeping dogs lie, I like a challenge. Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 01:16 Rakanishu2 wrote:On March 17 2011 23:53 hideo wrote:On March 17 2011 23:09 Rakanishu2 wrote:On March 17 2011 13:24 Judicator wrote:On March 17 2011 13:08 Rakanishu2 wrote:On March 17 2011 11:48 Goshawk. wrote:On March 16 2011 06:50 Rakanishu2 wrote:On March 15 2011 06:23 JeeJee wrote:On March 15 2011 05:10 Rakanishu2 wrote:
[quote]
Sorry, it's true.
before you reply: take it to PMs, I'm not going to argue with you in public when that's the way you address posts. how can it be unequivocally true? you certainly didn't do any studies on it and i seriously doubt 'playing all three extensively' constitutes anything other than opinion, provided you played none of the three at a remotely high level so i suggest "sorry, it's true" should be rephrased to "sorry, i think it's true based on X" and then we can debate X because as of right now, you are definitely wrong. For someone who steps in and lectures me on debate tactics and formalities, coming in and saying I'm wrong without a "because" of your own, pretty much makes you a hypocrite. And I'd love to talk to either of you in PMs, I don't want to crap on this thread like you would like to. But neither of you has made it to that step yet. HoN gets more variety into the picks, all 3 different styles of game have been succesfully achieved (heavy farm-carry based, Gank-heavy style, Push heavy style), there's much more variety in the heros picked when compared to DotA. So in terms of more skill being needed, there's inherently more variety in high level HoN, which insinuates more knowledge and skill being required. Several of the items were better balanced, making some of the useless ones from DotA really have solid roles (Hand of Midas --> alch bones comes to mind as a recent example), you see much more variety in the items picks, all 5 different types of boots get selected often for a concrete example, striders being brought in makes heavy support roles much more skill-oriented. But really, I'm not going to sit here and list all the small differences that make HoN more varied and demanding than DotA, if you want to talk, take it to PMs. The fact you can even think HoN can have "a far" greater skill level when the games are relatively similar is crazy. 1. The viable hero pool in dota is larger than HoNs. HoN has 75 heroes in total, in ONE 2010 Dota tournament (SMM) 72 unique heroes were picked. Hmmm. Source.2. Have you ever played support for a good team in dota? There's a lot more to it than buying wards and placing them. 3. Dota is played a lot more and a lot higher level both in EU and in Asia. Have you even seen the Chinese dota scene? And as Judicator said, basing your opinions on a old version of dota that you played a bit and a game you currently play and follow is just amazingly dumb. Hilarious. I don't think anyone in this thread is capable of even getting through my post, no one seems to have read it, at all. Across 4 times I've been quoted, 2 of the points I have made have been addressed, and only 1 successfully. Congrats, you've countered 1 of my 9 points. Well done! Also, I posted my MMR because someone basically said that I "tried" it and didn't have much experience in it. I'm not a braggart, nor do I think my MMR itself validates my opinion I already knew I wouldn't convince anyone to change their opinion, you love DotA, and you hate to see a game take everything great about it, and get rid of so many bad parts of the game. I love DotA too guys. I love it too. My favorite parts of your hilarious flailing against my point of view: 1) telling me how hard ward whoring is (completely off-topic and a perfect exhibition of inability to read before blathering) 2) Calling me an A-hole scrub because someone asking for the level of my ingame experience and me giving it to them 3) Showing me a list of heros picked in DotA, and once again using the fact that DotA has more heroes total as evidence that it takes more skill. 4) Posting that "quantity < quality" point completely invalidates everything you've posted. Thank you for letting me know exactly how little you know about HoN and matchmaking, nothing. I took the time to play both games before flailing, could you be so kind? idiot. I'm sorry, but you guys missed the mark. If you want to get trashed by this scrub in either game, hit me up! Oh wait, I don't think any of you have the MMR to run into me in HoN. see, I can be petty and infantile too! Edit: adding to the list of hilarious flailing against my posts, sorry there was just too much Not as hilarious as your inability to defend your original claims. Notice how nobody is even attempting to support your claims for you...1743 MMR is good bro, as good as those DXD players... Like I said, you are avoiding specifics completely, just made some claims then couldn't back them up when pressed for it. Specifics > generalities, basic argument making dude HoN gets more variety into the picks, all 3 different styles of game have been succesfully achieved (heavy farm-carry based, Gank-heavy style, Push heavy style), there's much more variety in the heros picked when compared to DotA. So in terms of more skill being needed, there's inherently more variety in high level HoN, which insinuates more knowledge and skill being required. Several of the items were better balanced, making some of the useless ones from DotA really have solid roles (Hand of Midas --> alch bones comes to mind as a recent example), you see much more variety in the items picks, all 5 different types of boots get selected often for a concrete example, striders being brought in makes heavy support roles much more skill-oriented. Reposted because you said I don't mention specifics. I'm not going to argue with you if you refuse to read. The reason why nobody acknowledged your points is because they're all flat-out wrong. There are not just 3 specific styles set in stone. If you've watched any high level DotA matches within the past year you'd know that most successful teams have very organic play. There's no reason why (with good team composition) you can't have a hard carry farming non-stop AND down towers before the 10min mark AND pull off necessary ganks. This happens all the time when the stronger teams come out to play. The much-maligned single carry focus turtle-style is used by like 2 or so Chinese teams and I imagine that's just because their carry players are so damned good at farming. A morphling with 3-4 tier 4 items by 30min is a lot safer to bank on then your risky early push and gank strats, and that's what pro teams care about: winning. Even then, many Chinese teams incorporate aggressive gank and pushing styles, especially in series. If you look to SEA and European play you'll find all the ganking and pushing you want. Go watch a Filipino game and you'll find more aggression and higher ganking + pushing tempo than any HoN game I've seen. Your point about hero variety has already been refuted. The metagame is not static and a huge number of heroes have gone in and out of fashion over time. Just the last SMM and you can see the amount of experimentation and strategic picks is considerable in DotA. Phase boots, arcane boots, power treads all see their fair share of competitive usage, and travels don't see any more use in HoN than they do in DotA. Read rabidch's post again and you'll see that the number of items that are never used is completely comparable to HoN. If you look at the competitive HoN scene, it's very telling when the pioneering team, FnaticMSI, made its name by adopting hero, item, laning combinations and strategies from competitive DotA. I didn't say that teams pigeon-holed themselves to one of those three style, I simply said that all three styles come into play in HoN, unlike high-level DotA, where I would say there just isn't as much ganking or pushing. Look, you can tell me DotA is organic and requires alot of skill, it does, DotA is very high level and strategic. But HoN chiseled out some of the problems in DotA that caused skill ceilings. I already know I won't convince you, you're just going to have to get to a decent MMR in HoN and see it for yourself. Welcome to the HoN/Dota thread. Sorry that I've only shown up after the mud-slinging already occurred. Here are a few things you need to know about the thread before trying to start any discussions: 1. Many people who read this thread are better than you at HoN and DotA. You should expect this in any specialized thread you read on TL. 2. The majority of the people who post in this thread know eachother. 3. The aforementioned people don't bother posting full replies to new posters that make ridiculous claims. With those in mind, let me point out a few remarks you made and the reason they got the response that they did. Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 09:02 Rakanishu2 wrote:
From someone who played all three extensively, HoN requires the most knowledge and skill, by far. People in this thread instantly write you off since you appear to think you're better than everyone (and they know you're not by this statement) and you begin an argument that is useless and retarded. Show nested quote +On March 15 2011 06:23 JeeJee wrote:On March 15 2011 05:10 Rakanishu2 wrote:On March 14 2011 06:30 Firereaver wrote:On March 11 2011 09:02 Rakanishu2 wrote:
From someone who played all three extensively, HoN requires the most knowledge and skill, by far. LOOOOOOOOOOLololololol. HoN requires more knowledge and skill than DotA!????! Seriously just quit plaing straightaway if you think so. Please spectate some professional DotA and then see if you can tolerate any professional HoN ! Also while you're at it, you have all the freedom to stop spouting BS like that! Sorry, it's true. before you reply: take it to PMs, I'm not going to argue with you in public when that's the way you address posts. how can it be unequivocally true? you certainly didn't do any studies on it and i seriously doubt 'playing all three extensively' constitutes anything other than opinion, provided you played none of the three at a remotely high level so i suggest "sorry, it's true" should be rephrased to "sorry, i think it's true based on X" and then we can debate X because as of right now, you are definitely wrong. JeeJee gives you a good reply in the context of the norm in this thread. You're right, he ends the post with, "you are definitely wrong" which has no support either. However, that's because people aren't going to bother with full responses to opinions that are considered wrong by the majority and, therefore, have a huge burden of proof. Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 08:13 Judicator wrote:
Rakanishu2's post can be summed up as:
Hi I haven't paid too close attention to either HoN or DotA but I'll try to compare them using some flimsy logic and arguments that sounds right in my head and spit them out there as fact.
There's no debate because I can simply rattle off all of the popular strategies and heroes since 6.27...OH WAIT I ALREADY DID. Judicator's post may seem curt but that's because everyone has already judged you as someone who thinks they're amazing at HoN and comes in spurting out "truths". Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 08:54 Rakanishu2 wrote:On March 16 2011 08:13 Judicator wrote:
Rakanishu2's post can be summed up as:
Hi I haven't paid too close attention to either HoN or DotA but I'll try to compare them using some flimsy logic and arguments that sounds right in my head and spit them out there as fact.
There's no debate because I can simply rattle off all of the popular strategies and heroes since 6.27...OH WAIT I ALREADY DID. I played alot of DotA back in it's hay, and I have 1734 MMR normal mode in HoN. I still play HoN regularly. Again, the majority of people in this thread have been watching and playing DotA longer than you. They are good and a number have been on competitive teams. The same goes for HoN; a lot of the posters here are 1800+ MMR. Also, the ones who know a lot of DotA also have tried/play/know about HoN. Gotta disappear for a while again. Didn't have a chance to read over this post so hopefully I don't sound like a dick.
Thanks for the well-thought out post.
Just as before, I didn't say my experience made me correct, just like rebutting with yours/theirs doesn't make you right.
People asked me for my experience, and I provided it. Apparently I have to explain this to you 3 times before you catch it, perhaps more.
I don't care if they're a tightly knit-group who shun differing opinions. They're going to defend the game they enjoy more. Conveniently, I enjoyed both games thoroughly, and thought I would provide my 2 cents.
You guys can play and love DotA, more power to you, but HoN brings more to the table in my opinion.
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<3
Oh, The Places You'll Actually Go
This is it!
This moment right now
Is the youngest you'll be
For the rest of your life,
Just wait and see!
So sit back, relax
And try to have fun!
You'll be even older
When this cartoon is done.
On this milestone, people will tell you you're great
All your friends will hear too, of their wonderful fate
Max dominates baseball, he might even go pro
McGill plans to sing songs in a traveling show
Omar wants to make partner at Figglestone Shlife
Sally Sue's got a trust fund, she's set for life
Now just wait for a second,
How can that be?
Not everyone's special,
Statistically
Chances are better, though you don't want to believe
That most of your goals will not be achieved!
You'll set out today to follow your dreams
But you'll quickly discover: life's not what it seems
It's awkward, it's lonely and you'll have no assurance
That you won't have to serve coffee, just to get health insurance 
You'll call your friends' parents, and your parent's friends
All social interactions now a means to an end
You'll soon sink to a place you think is low
But then it gets lower!
You'll learn how low low things go
You'll waste a few weeks, a few months, a few years
Until you come to embody all of your fears
You'll live with your parents, who'll love you less and less
While your life crumbles around you in a big heaping mess
Just keep waiting around and one day you'll see
Your life's not as bad as it maybe could be
You probably won't starve or anything like that
In fact, in all likelihood, you're gonna get fat
Sorry to disappoint, but I'm telling the truth
Your high expectations are a product of youth
But mediocrity's normal
It's what the word means!
So come on kid,
Just give up your dreams.
Then again, maybe I'm not the best guy for real world advice giving
I'm a fake doctor who writes rhymes for a living
teehee
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On March 18 2011 06:38 Rakanishu2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 05:29 Durak wrote:Been busy so I haven't been able to respond to the active discussion in this wonderful thread of ours. Even though it might be better to let sleeping dogs lie, I like a challenge. On March 18 2011 01:16 Rakanishu2 wrote:On March 17 2011 23:53 hideo wrote:On March 17 2011 23:09 Rakanishu2 wrote:On March 17 2011 13:24 Judicator wrote:On March 17 2011 13:08 Rakanishu2 wrote:On March 17 2011 11:48 Goshawk. wrote:On March 16 2011 06:50 Rakanishu2 wrote:On March 15 2011 06:23 JeeJee wrote:
[quote]
how can it be unequivocally true? you certainly didn't do any studies on it and i seriously doubt 'playing all three extensively' constitutes anything other than opinion, provided you played none of the three at a remotely high level
so i suggest "sorry, it's true" should be rephrased to "sorry, i think it's true based on X" and then we can debate X
because as of right now, you are definitely wrong. For someone who steps in and lectures me on debate tactics and formalities, coming in and saying I'm wrong without a "because" of your own, pretty much makes you a hypocrite. And I'd love to talk to either of you in PMs, I don't want to crap on this thread like you would like to. But neither of you has made it to that step yet. HoN gets more variety into the picks, all 3 different styles of game have been succesfully achieved (heavy farm-carry based, Gank-heavy style, Push heavy style), there's much more variety in the heros picked when compared to DotA. So in terms of more skill being needed, there's inherently more variety in high level HoN, which insinuates more knowledge and skill being required. Several of the items were better balanced, making some of the useless ones from DotA really have solid roles (Hand of Midas --> alch bones comes to mind as a recent example), you see much more variety in the items picks, all 5 different types of boots get selected often for a concrete example, striders being brought in makes heavy support roles much more skill-oriented. But really, I'm not going to sit here and list all the small differences that make HoN more varied and demanding than DotA, if you want to talk, take it to PMs. The fact you can even think HoN can have "a far" greater skill level when the games are relatively similar is crazy. 1. The viable hero pool in dota is larger than HoNs. HoN has 75 heroes in total, in ONE 2010 Dota tournament (SMM) 72 unique heroes were picked. Hmmm. Source.2. Have you ever played support for a good team in dota? There's a lot more to it than buying wards and placing them. 3. Dota is played a lot more and a lot higher level both in EU and in Asia. Have you even seen the Chinese dota scene? And as Judicator said, basing your opinions on a old version of dota that you played a bit and a game you currently play and follow is just amazingly dumb. Hilarious. I don't think anyone in this thread is capable of even getting through my post, no one seems to have read it, at all. Across 4 times I've been quoted, 2 of the points I have made have been addressed, and only 1 successfully. Congrats, you've countered 1 of my 9 points. Well done! Also, I posted my MMR because someone basically said that I "tried" it and didn't have much experience in it. I'm not a braggart, nor do I think my MMR itself validates my opinion I already knew I wouldn't convince anyone to change their opinion, you love DotA, and you hate to see a game take everything great about it, and get rid of so many bad parts of the game. I love DotA too guys. I love it too. My favorite parts of your hilarious flailing against my point of view: 1) telling me how hard ward whoring is (completely off-topic and a perfect exhibition of inability to read before blathering) 2) Calling me an A-hole scrub because someone asking for the level of my ingame experience and me giving it to them 3) Showing me a list of heros picked in DotA, and once again using the fact that DotA has more heroes total as evidence that it takes more skill. 4) Posting that "quantity < quality" point completely invalidates everything you've posted. Thank you for letting me know exactly how little you know about HoN and matchmaking, nothing. I took the time to play both games before flailing, could you be so kind? idiot. I'm sorry, but you guys missed the mark. If you want to get trashed by this scrub in either game, hit me up! Oh wait, I don't think any of you have the MMR to run into me in HoN. see, I can be petty and infantile too! Edit: adding to the list of hilarious flailing against my posts, sorry there was just too much Not as hilarious as your inability to defend your original claims. Notice how nobody is even attempting to support your claims for you...1743 MMR is good bro, as good as those DXD players... Like I said, you are avoiding specifics completely, just made some claims then couldn't back them up when pressed for it. Specifics > generalities, basic argument making dude HoN gets more variety into the picks, all 3 different styles of game have been succesfully achieved (heavy farm-carry based, Gank-heavy style, Push heavy style), there's much more variety in the heros picked when compared to DotA. So in terms of more skill being needed, there's inherently more variety in high level HoN, which insinuates more knowledge and skill being required. Several of the items were better balanced, making some of the useless ones from DotA really have solid roles (Hand of Midas --> alch bones comes to mind as a recent example), you see much more variety in the items picks, all 5 different types of boots get selected often for a concrete example, striders being brought in makes heavy support roles much more skill-oriented. Reposted because you said I don't mention specifics. I'm not going to argue with you if you refuse to read. The reason why nobody acknowledged your points is because they're all flat-out wrong. There are not just 3 specific styles set in stone. If you've watched any high level DotA matches within the past year you'd know that most successful teams have very organic play. There's no reason why (with good team composition) you can't have a hard carry farming non-stop AND down towers before the 10min mark AND pull off necessary ganks. This happens all the time when the stronger teams come out to play. The much-maligned single carry focus turtle-style is used by like 2 or so Chinese teams and I imagine that's just because their carry players are so damned good at farming. A morphling with 3-4 tier 4 items by 30min is a lot safer to bank on then your risky early push and gank strats, and that's what pro teams care about: winning. Even then, many Chinese teams incorporate aggressive gank and pushing styles, especially in series. If you look to SEA and European play you'll find all the ganking and pushing you want. Go watch a Filipino game and you'll find more aggression and higher ganking + pushing tempo than any HoN game I've seen. Your point about hero variety has already been refuted. The metagame is not static and a huge number of heroes have gone in and out of fashion over time. Just the last SMM and you can see the amount of experimentation and strategic picks is considerable in DotA. Phase boots, arcane boots, power treads all see their fair share of competitive usage, and travels don't see any more use in HoN than they do in DotA. Read rabidch's post again and you'll see that the number of items that are never used is completely comparable to HoN. If you look at the competitive HoN scene, it's very telling when the pioneering team, FnaticMSI, made its name by adopting hero, item, laning combinations and strategies from competitive DotA. I didn't say that teams pigeon-holed themselves to one of those three style, I simply said that all three styles come into play in HoN, unlike high-level DotA, where I would say there just isn't as much ganking or pushing. Look, you can tell me DotA is organic and requires alot of skill, it does, DotA is very high level and strategic. But HoN chiseled out some of the problems in DotA that caused skill ceilings. I already know I won't convince you, you're just going to have to get to a decent MMR in HoN and see it for yourself. Welcome to the HoN/Dota thread. Sorry that I've only shown up after the mud-slinging already occurred. Here are a few things you need to know about the thread before trying to start any discussions: 1. Many people who read this thread are better than you at HoN and DotA. You should expect this in any specialized thread you read on TL. 2. The majority of the people who post in this thread know eachother. 3. The aforementioned people don't bother posting full replies to new posters that make ridiculous claims. With those in mind, let me point out a few remarks you made and the reason they got the response that they did. On March 11 2011 09:02 Rakanishu2 wrote:
From someone who played all three extensively, HoN requires the most knowledge and skill, by far. People in this thread instantly write you off since you appear to think you're better than everyone (and they know you're not by this statement) and you begin an argument that is useless and retarded. On March 15 2011 06:23 JeeJee wrote:On March 15 2011 05:10 Rakanishu2 wrote:On March 14 2011 06:30 Firereaver wrote:On March 11 2011 09:02 Rakanishu2 wrote:
From someone who played all three extensively, HoN requires the most knowledge and skill, by far. LOOOOOOOOOOLololololol. HoN requires more knowledge and skill than DotA!????! Seriously just quit plaing straightaway if you think so. Please spectate some professional DotA and then see if you can tolerate any professional HoN ! Also while you're at it, you have all the freedom to stop spouting BS like that! Sorry, it's true. before you reply: take it to PMs, I'm not going to argue with you in public when that's the way you address posts. how can it be unequivocally true? you certainly didn't do any studies on it and i seriously doubt 'playing all three extensively' constitutes anything other than opinion, provided you played none of the three at a remotely high level so i suggest "sorry, it's true" should be rephrased to "sorry, i think it's true based on X" and then we can debate X because as of right now, you are definitely wrong. JeeJee gives you a good reply in the context of the norm in this thread. You're right, he ends the post with, "you are definitely wrong" which has no support either. However, that's because people aren't going to bother with full responses to opinions that are considered wrong by the majority and, therefore, have a huge burden of proof. On March 16 2011 08:13 Judicator wrote:
Rakanishu2's post can be summed up as:
Hi I haven't paid too close attention to either HoN or DotA but I'll try to compare them using some flimsy logic and arguments that sounds right in my head and spit them out there as fact.
There's no debate because I can simply rattle off all of the popular strategies and heroes since 6.27...OH WAIT I ALREADY DID. Judicator's post may seem curt but that's because everyone has already judged you as someone who thinks they're amazing at HoN and comes in spurting out "truths". On March 17 2011 08:54 Rakanishu2 wrote:On March 16 2011 08:13 Judicator wrote:
Rakanishu2's post can be summed up as:
Hi I haven't paid too close attention to either HoN or DotA but I'll try to compare them using some flimsy logic and arguments that sounds right in my head and spit them out there as fact.
There's no debate because I can simply rattle off all of the popular strategies and heroes since 6.27...OH WAIT I ALREADY DID. I played alot of DotA back in it's hay, and I have 1734 MMR normal mode in HoN. I still play HoN regularly. Again, the majority of people in this thread have been watching and playing DotA longer than you. They are good and a number have been on competitive teams. The same goes for HoN; a lot of the posters here are 1800+ MMR. Also, the ones who know a lot of DotA also have tried/play/know about HoN. Gotta disappear for a while again. Didn't have a chance to read over this post so hopefully I don't sound like a dick. Thanks for the well-thought out post. Just as before, I didn't say my experience made me correct, just like rebutting with yours/theirs doesn't make you right. People asked me for my experience, and I provided it. Apparently I have to explain this to you 3 times before you catch it, perhaps more. I don't care if they're a tightly knit-group who shun differing opinions. They're going to defend the game they enjoy more. Conveniently, I enjoyed both games thoroughly, and thought I would provide my 2 cents. You guys can play and love DotA, more power to you, but HoN brings more to the table in my opinion.
only half of the people that called you out are dota players, i dont even play with any of them either
keep making stupid assumptions scrub, you can have your opinions (i am perfectly fine with all the hon players in this thread) but you cant argue shit and everybody here knows it
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Code S worthy HoN play imo.
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On March 17 2011 22:27 don_kyuhote wrote:Guys, we need more TL people to play dota with us. Nothing serious, nothing competitive, just all fun. This is how our typical dota game looks like: + Show Spoiler +Reactions: + Show Spoiler +RabidCh SexU (OmgIRok) vjekpleh
And then we win the game with Rabid + 3 and a pub with Me + don_kyuhote + 3 pubs? LOOOOOL 2EZZZZZZZ
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On March 18 2011 06:38 Rakanishu2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 05:29 Durak wrote:Been busy so I haven't been able to respond to the active discussion in this wonderful thread of ours. Even though it might be better to let sleeping dogs lie, I like a challenge. On March 18 2011 01:16 Rakanishu2 wrote:On March 17 2011 23:53 hideo wrote:On March 17 2011 23:09 Rakanishu2 wrote:On March 17 2011 13:24 Judicator wrote:On March 17 2011 13:08 Rakanishu2 wrote:On March 17 2011 11:48 Goshawk. wrote:On March 16 2011 06:50 Rakanishu2 wrote:On March 15 2011 06:23 JeeJee wrote:
[quote]
how can it be unequivocally true? you certainly didn't do any studies on it and i seriously doubt 'playing all three extensively' constitutes anything other than opinion, provided you played none of the three at a remotely high level
so i suggest "sorry, it's true" should be rephrased to "sorry, i think it's true based on X" and then we can debate X
because as of right now, you are definitely wrong. For someone who steps in and lectures me on debate tactics and formalities, coming in and saying I'm wrong without a "because" of your own, pretty much makes you a hypocrite. And I'd love to talk to either of you in PMs, I don't want to crap on this thread like you would like to. But neither of you has made it to that step yet. HoN gets more variety into the picks, all 3 different styles of game have been succesfully achieved (heavy farm-carry based, Gank-heavy style, Push heavy style), there's much more variety in the heros picked when compared to DotA. So in terms of more skill being needed, there's inherently more variety in high level HoN, which insinuates more knowledge and skill being required. Several of the items were better balanced, making some of the useless ones from DotA really have solid roles (Hand of Midas --> alch bones comes to mind as a recent example), you see much more variety in the items picks, all 5 different types of boots get selected often for a concrete example, striders being brought in makes heavy support roles much more skill-oriented. But really, I'm not going to sit here and list all the small differences that make HoN more varied and demanding than DotA, if you want to talk, take it to PMs. The fact you can even think HoN can have "a far" greater skill level when the games are relatively similar is crazy. 1. The viable hero pool in dota is larger than HoNs. HoN has 75 heroes in total, in ONE 2010 Dota tournament (SMM) 72 unique heroes were picked. Hmmm. Source.2. Have you ever played support for a good team in dota? There's a lot more to it than buying wards and placing them. 3. Dota is played a lot more and a lot higher level both in EU and in Asia. Have you even seen the Chinese dota scene? And as Judicator said, basing your opinions on a old version of dota that you played a bit and a game you currently play and follow is just amazingly dumb. Hilarious. I don't think anyone in this thread is capable of even getting through my post, no one seems to have read it, at all. Across 4 times I've been quoted, 2 of the points I have made have been addressed, and only 1 successfully. Congrats, you've countered 1 of my 9 points. Well done! Also, I posted my MMR because someone basically said that I "tried" it and didn't have much experience in it. I'm not a braggart, nor do I think my MMR itself validates my opinion I already knew I wouldn't convince anyone to change their opinion, you love DotA, and you hate to see a game take everything great about it, and get rid of so many bad parts of the game. I love DotA too guys. I love it too. My favorite parts of your hilarious flailing against my point of view: 1) telling me how hard ward whoring is (completely off-topic and a perfect exhibition of inability to read before blathering) 2) Calling me an A-hole scrub because someone asking for the level of my ingame experience and me giving it to them 3) Showing me a list of heros picked in DotA, and once again using the fact that DotA has more heroes total as evidence that it takes more skill. 4) Posting that "quantity < quality" point completely invalidates everything you've posted. Thank you for letting me know exactly how little you know about HoN and matchmaking, nothing. I took the time to play both games before flailing, could you be so kind? idiot. I'm sorry, but you guys missed the mark. If you want to get trashed by this scrub in either game, hit me up! Oh wait, I don't think any of you have the MMR to run into me in HoN. see, I can be petty and infantile too! Edit: adding to the list of hilarious flailing against my posts, sorry there was just too much Not as hilarious as your inability to defend your original claims. Notice how nobody is even attempting to support your claims for you...1743 MMR is good bro, as good as those DXD players... Like I said, you are avoiding specifics completely, just made some claims then couldn't back them up when pressed for it. Specifics > generalities, basic argument making dude HoN gets more variety into the picks, all 3 different styles of game have been succesfully achieved (heavy farm-carry based, Gank-heavy style, Push heavy style), there's much more variety in the heros picked when compared to DotA. So in terms of more skill being needed, there's inherently more variety in high level HoN, which insinuates more knowledge and skill being required. Several of the items were better balanced, making some of the useless ones from DotA really have solid roles (Hand of Midas --> alch bones comes to mind as a recent example), you see much more variety in the items picks, all 5 different types of boots get selected often for a concrete example, striders being brought in makes heavy support roles much more skill-oriented. Reposted because you said I don't mention specifics. I'm not going to argue with you if you refuse to read. The reason why nobody acknowledged your points is because they're all flat-out wrong. There are not just 3 specific styles set in stone. If you've watched any high level DotA matches within the past year you'd know that most successful teams have very organic play. There's no reason why (with good team composition) you can't have a hard carry farming non-stop AND down towers before the 10min mark AND pull off necessary ganks. This happens all the time when the stronger teams come out to play. The much-maligned single carry focus turtle-style is used by like 2 or so Chinese teams and I imagine that's just because their carry players are so damned good at farming. A morphling with 3-4 tier 4 items by 30min is a lot safer to bank on then your risky early push and gank strats, and that's what pro teams care about: winning. Even then, many Chinese teams incorporate aggressive gank and pushing styles, especially in series. If you look to SEA and European play you'll find all the ganking and pushing you want. Go watch a Filipino game and you'll find more aggression and higher ganking + pushing tempo than any HoN game I've seen. Your point about hero variety has already been refuted. The metagame is not static and a huge number of heroes have gone in and out of fashion over time. Just the last SMM and you can see the amount of experimentation and strategic picks is considerable in DotA. Phase boots, arcane boots, power treads all see their fair share of competitive usage, and travels don't see any more use in HoN than they do in DotA. Read rabidch's post again and you'll see that the number of items that are never used is completely comparable to HoN. If you look at the competitive HoN scene, it's very telling when the pioneering team, FnaticMSI, made its name by adopting hero, item, laning combinations and strategies from competitive DotA. I didn't say that teams pigeon-holed themselves to one of those three style, I simply said that all three styles come into play in HoN, unlike high-level DotA, where I would say there just isn't as much ganking or pushing. Look, you can tell me DotA is organic and requires alot of skill, it does, DotA is very high level and strategic. But HoN chiseled out some of the problems in DotA that caused skill ceilings. I already know I won't convince you, you're just going to have to get to a decent MMR in HoN and see it for yourself. Welcome to the HoN/Dota thread. Sorry that I've only shown up after the mud-slinging already occurred. Here are a few things you need to know about the thread before trying to start any discussions: 1. Many people who read this thread are better than you at HoN and DotA. You should expect this in any specialized thread you read on TL. 2. The majority of the people who post in this thread know eachother. 3. The aforementioned people don't bother posting full replies to new posters that make ridiculous claims. With those in mind, let me point out a few remarks you made and the reason they got the response that they did. On March 11 2011 09:02 Rakanishu2 wrote:
From someone who played all three extensively, HoN requires the most knowledge and skill, by far. People in this thread instantly write you off since you appear to think you're better than everyone (and they know you're not by this statement) and you begin an argument that is useless and retarded. On March 15 2011 06:23 JeeJee wrote:On March 15 2011 05:10 Rakanishu2 wrote:On March 14 2011 06:30 Firereaver wrote:On March 11 2011 09:02 Rakanishu2 wrote:
From someone who played all three extensively, HoN requires the most knowledge and skill, by far. LOOOOOOOOOOLololololol. HoN requires more knowledge and skill than DotA!????! Seriously just quit plaing straightaway if you think so. Please spectate some professional DotA and then see if you can tolerate any professional HoN ! Also while you're at it, you have all the freedom to stop spouting BS like that! Sorry, it's true. before you reply: take it to PMs, I'm not going to argue with you in public when that's the way you address posts. how can it be unequivocally true? you certainly didn't do any studies on it and i seriously doubt 'playing all three extensively' constitutes anything other than opinion, provided you played none of the three at a remotely high level so i suggest "sorry, it's true" should be rephrased to "sorry, i think it's true based on X" and then we can debate X because as of right now, you are definitely wrong. JeeJee gives you a good reply in the context of the norm in this thread. You're right, he ends the post with, "you are definitely wrong" which has no support either. However, that's because people aren't going to bother with full responses to opinions that are considered wrong by the majority and, therefore, have a huge burden of proof. On March 16 2011 08:13 Judicator wrote:
Rakanishu2's post can be summed up as:
Hi I haven't paid too close attention to either HoN or DotA but I'll try to compare them using some flimsy logic and arguments that sounds right in my head and spit them out there as fact.
There's no debate because I can simply rattle off all of the popular strategies and heroes since 6.27...OH WAIT I ALREADY DID. Judicator's post may seem curt but that's because everyone has already judged you as someone who thinks they're amazing at HoN and comes in spurting out "truths". On March 17 2011 08:54 Rakanishu2 wrote:On March 16 2011 08:13 Judicator wrote:
Rakanishu2's post can be summed up as:
Hi I haven't paid too close attention to either HoN or DotA but I'll try to compare them using some flimsy logic and arguments that sounds right in my head and spit them out there as fact.
There's no debate because I can simply rattle off all of the popular strategies and heroes since 6.27...OH WAIT I ALREADY DID. I played alot of DotA back in it's hay, and I have 1734 MMR normal mode in HoN. I still play HoN regularly. Again, the majority of people in this thread have been watching and playing DotA longer than you. They are good and a number have been on competitive teams. The same goes for HoN; a lot of the posters here are 1800+ MMR. Also, the ones who know a lot of DotA also have tried/play/know about HoN. Gotta disappear for a while again. Didn't have a chance to read over this post so hopefully I don't sound like a dick. Thanks for the well-thought out post. Just as before, I didn't say my experience made me correct, just like rebutting with yours/theirs doesn't make you right. People asked me for my experience, and I provided it. Apparently I have to explain this to you 3 times before you catch it, perhaps more. I don't care if they're a tightly knit-group who shun differing opinions. They're going to defend the game they enjoy more. Conveniently, I enjoyed both games thoroughly, and thought I would provide my 2 cents. You guys can play and love DotA, more power to you, but HoN brings more to the table in my opinion.
Ok so what was the point of your post then? You didn't say present your opinion as opinion, but rather facts, but that's cool too. Yet when we asked you to prove your opinion's merit (otherwise the alternative is that you are just blabbering random shit), you got real defensive and didn't really provide anything concrete.
My original post to you was just skipping all those in between steps because if you were anywhere as good as you believed yourself to be, you could have provided them easily, but you knee jerk with a "take this to PM" which makes us think that your opinion isn't worth shit to be discussed on a forum...in a thread dedicated to both games in question...
Also, when I talk about skill, I am not referring to your ranking and shit, could care less about that shit, where and who you play with is a hell of lot more indicative of your skill and intelligence than any rating/ranking can provide.
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On March 18 2011 06:38 Rakanishu2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 05:29 Durak wrote:Been busy so I haven't been able to respond to the active discussion in this wonderful thread of ours. Even though it might be better to let sleeping dogs lie, I like a challenge. On March 18 2011 01:16 Rakanishu2 wrote:On March 17 2011 23:53 hideo wrote:On March 17 2011 23:09 Rakanishu2 wrote:On March 17 2011 13:24 Judicator wrote:On March 17 2011 13:08 Rakanishu2 wrote:On March 17 2011 11:48 Goshawk. wrote:On March 16 2011 06:50 Rakanishu2 wrote:On March 15 2011 06:23 JeeJee wrote:
[quote]
how can it be unequivocally true? you certainly didn't do any studies on it and i seriously doubt 'playing all three extensively' constitutes anything other than opinion, provided you played none of the three at a remotely high level
so i suggest "sorry, it's true" should be rephrased to "sorry, i think it's true based on X" and then we can debate X
because as of right now, you are definitely wrong. For someone who steps in and lectures me on debate tactics and formalities, coming in and saying I'm wrong without a "because" of your own, pretty much makes you a hypocrite. And I'd love to talk to either of you in PMs, I don't want to crap on this thread like you would like to. But neither of you has made it to that step yet. HoN gets more variety into the picks, all 3 different styles of game have been succesfully achieved (heavy farm-carry based, Gank-heavy style, Push heavy style), there's much more variety in the heros picked when compared to DotA. So in terms of more skill being needed, there's inherently more variety in high level HoN, which insinuates more knowledge and skill being required. Several of the items were better balanced, making some of the useless ones from DotA really have solid roles (Hand of Midas --> alch bones comes to mind as a recent example), you see much more variety in the items picks, all 5 different types of boots get selected often for a concrete example, striders being brought in makes heavy support roles much more skill-oriented. But really, I'm not going to sit here and list all the small differences that make HoN more varied and demanding than DotA, if you want to talk, take it to PMs. The fact you can even think HoN can have "a far" greater skill level when the games are relatively similar is crazy. 1. The viable hero pool in dota is larger than HoNs. HoN has 75 heroes in total, in ONE 2010 Dota tournament (SMM) 72 unique heroes were picked. Hmmm. Source.2. Have you ever played support for a good team in dota? There's a lot more to it than buying wards and placing them. 3. Dota is played a lot more and a lot higher level both in EU and in Asia. Have you even seen the Chinese dota scene? And as Judicator said, basing your opinions on a old version of dota that you played a bit and a game you currently play and follow is just amazingly dumb. Hilarious. I don't think anyone in this thread is capable of even getting through my post, no one seems to have read it, at all. Across 4 times I've been quoted, 2 of the points I have made have been addressed, and only 1 successfully. Congrats, you've countered 1 of my 9 points. Well done! Also, I posted my MMR because someone basically said that I "tried" it and didn't have much experience in it. I'm not a braggart, nor do I think my MMR itself validates my opinion I already knew I wouldn't convince anyone to change their opinion, you love DotA, and you hate to see a game take everything great about it, and get rid of so many bad parts of the game. I love DotA too guys. I love it too. My favorite parts of your hilarious flailing against my point of view: 1) telling me how hard ward whoring is (completely off-topic and a perfect exhibition of inability to read before blathering) 2) Calling me an A-hole scrub because someone asking for the level of my ingame experience and me giving it to them 3) Showing me a list of heros picked in DotA, and once again using the fact that DotA has more heroes total as evidence that it takes more skill. 4) Posting that "quantity < quality" point completely invalidates everything you've posted. Thank you for letting me know exactly how little you know about HoN and matchmaking, nothing. I took the time to play both games before flailing, could you be so kind? idiot. I'm sorry, but you guys missed the mark. If you want to get trashed by this scrub in either game, hit me up! Oh wait, I don't think any of you have the MMR to run into me in HoN. see, I can be petty and infantile too! Edit: adding to the list of hilarious flailing against my posts, sorry there was just too much Not as hilarious as your inability to defend your original claims. Notice how nobody is even attempting to support your claims for you...1743 MMR is good bro, as good as those DXD players... Like I said, you are avoiding specifics completely, just made some claims then couldn't back them up when pressed for it. Specifics > generalities, basic argument making dude HoN gets more variety into the picks, all 3 different styles of game have been succesfully achieved (heavy farm-carry based, Gank-heavy style, Push heavy style), there's much more variety in the heros picked when compared to DotA. So in terms of more skill being needed, there's inherently more variety in high level HoN, which insinuates more knowledge and skill being required. Several of the items were better balanced, making some of the useless ones from DotA really have solid roles (Hand of Midas --> alch bones comes to mind as a recent example), you see much more variety in the items picks, all 5 different types of boots get selected often for a concrete example, striders being brought in makes heavy support roles much more skill-oriented. Reposted because you said I don't mention specifics. I'm not going to argue with you if you refuse to read. The reason why nobody acknowledged your points is because they're all flat-out wrong. There are not just 3 specific styles set in stone. If you've watched any high level DotA matches within the past year you'd know that most successful teams have very organic play. There's no reason why (with good team composition) you can't have a hard carry farming non-stop AND down towers before the 10min mark AND pull off necessary ganks. This happens all the time when the stronger teams come out to play. The much-maligned single carry focus turtle-style is used by like 2 or so Chinese teams and I imagine that's just because their carry players are so damned good at farming. A morphling with 3-4 tier 4 items by 30min is a lot safer to bank on then your risky early push and gank strats, and that's what pro teams care about: winning. Even then, many Chinese teams incorporate aggressive gank and pushing styles, especially in series. If you look to SEA and European play you'll find all the ganking and pushing you want. Go watch a Filipino game and you'll find more aggression and higher ganking + pushing tempo than any HoN game I've seen. Your point about hero variety has already been refuted. The metagame is not static and a huge number of heroes have gone in and out of fashion over time. Just the last SMM and you can see the amount of experimentation and strategic picks is considerable in DotA. Phase boots, arcane boots, power treads all see their fair share of competitive usage, and travels don't see any more use in HoN than they do in DotA. Read rabidch's post again and you'll see that the number of items that are never used is completely comparable to HoN. If you look at the competitive HoN scene, it's very telling when the pioneering team, FnaticMSI, made its name by adopting hero, item, laning combinations and strategies from competitive DotA. I didn't say that teams pigeon-holed themselves to one of those three style, I simply said that all three styles come into play in HoN, unlike high-level DotA, where I would say there just isn't as much ganking or pushing. Look, you can tell me DotA is organic and requires alot of skill, it does, DotA is very high level and strategic. But HoN chiseled out some of the problems in DotA that caused skill ceilings. I already know I won't convince you, you're just going to have to get to a decent MMR in HoN and see it for yourself. Welcome to the HoN/Dota thread. Sorry that I've only shown up after the mud-slinging already occurred. Here are a few things you need to know about the thread before trying to start any discussions: 1. Many people who read this thread are better than you at HoN and DotA. You should expect this in any specialized thread you read on TL. 2. The majority of the people who post in this thread know eachother. 3. The aforementioned people don't bother posting full replies to new posters that make ridiculous claims. With those in mind, let me point out a few remarks you made and the reason they got the response that they did. On March 11 2011 09:02 Rakanishu2 wrote:
From someone who played all three extensively, HoN requires the most knowledge and skill, by far. People in this thread instantly write you off since you appear to think you're better than everyone (and they know you're not by this statement) and you begin an argument that is useless and retarded. On March 15 2011 06:23 JeeJee wrote:On March 15 2011 05:10 Rakanishu2 wrote:On March 14 2011 06:30 Firereaver wrote:On March 11 2011 09:02 Rakanishu2 wrote:
From someone who played all three extensively, HoN requires the most knowledge and skill, by far. LOOOOOOOOOOLololololol. HoN requires more knowledge and skill than DotA!????! Seriously just quit plaing straightaway if you think so. Please spectate some professional DotA and then see if you can tolerate any professional HoN ! Also while you're at it, you have all the freedom to stop spouting BS like that! Sorry, it's true. before you reply: take it to PMs, I'm not going to argue with you in public when that's the way you address posts. how can it be unequivocally true? you certainly didn't do any studies on it and i seriously doubt 'playing all three extensively' constitutes anything other than opinion, provided you played none of the three at a remotely high level so i suggest "sorry, it's true" should be rephrased to "sorry, i think it's true based on X" and then we can debate X because as of right now, you are definitely wrong. JeeJee gives you a good reply in the context of the norm in this thread. You're right, he ends the post with, "you are definitely wrong" which has no support either. However, that's because people aren't going to bother with full responses to opinions that are considered wrong by the majority and, therefore, have a huge burden of proof. On March 16 2011 08:13 Judicator wrote:
Rakanishu2's post can be summed up as:
Hi I haven't paid too close attention to either HoN or DotA but I'll try to compare them using some flimsy logic and arguments that sounds right in my head and spit them out there as fact.
There's no debate because I can simply rattle off all of the popular strategies and heroes since 6.27...OH WAIT I ALREADY DID. Judicator's post may seem curt but that's because everyone has already judged you as someone who thinks they're amazing at HoN and comes in spurting out "truths". On March 17 2011 08:54 Rakanishu2 wrote:On March 16 2011 08:13 Judicator wrote:
Rakanishu2's post can be summed up as:
Hi I haven't paid too close attention to either HoN or DotA but I'll try to compare them using some flimsy logic and arguments that sounds right in my head and spit them out there as fact.
There's no debate because I can simply rattle off all of the popular strategies and heroes since 6.27...OH WAIT I ALREADY DID. I played alot of DotA back in it's hay, and I have 1734 MMR normal mode in HoN. I still play HoN regularly. Again, the majority of people in this thread have been watching and playing DotA longer than you. They are good and a number have been on competitive teams. The same goes for HoN; a lot of the posters here are 1800+ MMR. Also, the ones who know a lot of DotA also have tried/play/know about HoN. Gotta disappear for a while again. Didn't have a chance to read over this post so hopefully I don't sound like a dick. Thanks for the well-thought out post. Just as before, I didn't say my experience made me correct, just like rebutting with yours/theirs doesn't make you right. People asked me for my experience, and I provided it. Apparently I have to explain this to you 3 times before you catch it, perhaps more. I don't care if they're a tightly knit-group who shun differing opinions. They're going to defend the game they enjoy more. Conveniently, I enjoyed both games thoroughly, and thought I would provide my 2 cents. You guys can play and love DotA, more power to you, but HoN brings more to the table in my opinion.
On March 11 2011 09:02 Rakanishu2 wrote:
From someone who played all three extensively, HoN requires the most knowledge and skill, by far. A noob sticks out like a sore thumb, immediately, and it's not even close. In LoL they could fool me for the first 3-5 minutes of the game.
If you think LoL has a higher skill ceiling, then you haven't played HoN enough. You see people beat you at HoN and you assume they're doing something cheesy or easy, if this is the case, please, I dare you, do exactly what they do and see if you get the same results.
Hint: you won't.
1. Where in this post are you replying for someone asking for your experience?
2. Who cares about your experience playing these games in the first place?
You're coming into this thread like you understand the metagame, and you do not, as shown through your reasoning (or lack thereof) in trying to argue that HoN "requires the most knowledge and skill, by far." The reason people are bagging on you is because, simply put, you make yourself look like a faggot.
Just saying that HoN requires more knowledge is wrong in itself because common sense tells us that since DotA has more heroes than HoN, you need more understanding of the heroes that HoN does not have.
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The noob sticking out like a sore thumb part is hilarious, if you can't tell how good your opponent is after 1 or 2 waves (a whole minute), then you really shouldn't be commenting on what brings more or less to the table.
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On March 18 2011 08:01 OmgIRok wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 22:27 don_kyuhote wrote:Guys, we need more TL people to play dota with us. Nothing serious, nothing competitive, just all fun. This is how our typical dota game looks like: + Show Spoiler +Reactions: + Show Spoiler +RabidCh SexU (OmgIRok) vjekpleh And then we win the game with Rabid + 3 and a pub with Me + don_kyuhote + 3 pubs? LOOOOOL 2EZZZZZZZ
i had +2 with a pub potm that went sny/ethereal when the other team had morph drow invoker + some other carry
our storm left
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Well my educated guess is that the skill level of dota is higher. Why do you ask? Well dota has been around for a while now while hon is relatively new and still ever changing so its in my opinion too soon to talk about balance. Based on how many people still play dota an how many people play hon and the fact that dota is around for a longer time i would say it takes more practise in dota than in hon to get at the top
On March 18 2011 08:48 GARO wrote:
Huk playing HoN es funny
Link plox
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How often do you all play? -_- I'm very very rusty in DotA.
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