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playing support well goes far beyond simply ward-whoring, and even then being ward bitch isn't always an easy task -- it's far too easy for support players to become liabilities to their team, even if all they are doing is buying and placing wards. so yes, part of the skill in playing support is contributing beyond that. striders certainly add a separate dimension to the role of support/ganker, but i would say it makes the role somewhat easier because it makes it easier to position yourself.
as for the "dota has more heroes" argument i think you are missing the point as well. you say hon has more variety in hero picks at the highest level, but as goshawk said, in one tournament in 2010 72 unique heroes were picked which is almost equal to the total number of heroes in hon. hon has its shitty heroes too, don't know why you're knocking dota for that. i mean if you want to talk about % of total heroes that are actually used competitively then you may have a point, but at the moment dota's pool of heroes is so much larger relative to hon that there is going to be an inherent "tier list" of sorts simply because of the size of the hero pool.
i don't play enough atm to discuss the other points, so continue etc etc
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i was itching to dismantle the post, but then i saw that mmr paragraph at the end - you would fit in great at www.heroesofnewerth.com , it is a community that endorses your way of thinking, i suggest you spread your knowledge there. because as it is, you are just asking to be literally schooled, and noone voluntarily educates arrogant, ignorant people. the only reason someone would is because you are still in this thread.
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On March 17 2011 13:08 Rakanishu2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 11:48 Goshawk. wrote:On March 16 2011 06:50 Rakanishu2 wrote:On March 15 2011 06:23 JeeJee wrote:On March 15 2011 05:10 Rakanishu2 wrote:On March 14 2011 06:30 Firereaver wrote:On March 11 2011 09:02 Rakanishu2 wrote:
From someone who played all three extensively, HoN requires the most knowledge and skill, by far. LOOOOOOOOOOLololololol. HoN requires more knowledge and skill than DotA!????! Seriously just quit plaing straightaway if you think so. Please spectate some professional DotA and then see if you can tolerate any professional HoN ! Also while you're at it, you have all the freedom to stop spouting BS like that! Sorry, it's true. before you reply: take it to PMs, I'm not going to argue with you in public when that's the way you address posts. how can it be unequivocally true? you certainly didn't do any studies on it and i seriously doubt 'playing all three extensively' constitutes anything other than opinion, provided you played none of the three at a remotely high level so i suggest "sorry, it's true" should be rephrased to "sorry, i think it's true based on X" and then we can debate X because as of right now, you are definitely wrong. For someone who steps in and lectures me on debate tactics and formalities, coming in and saying I'm wrong without a "because" of your own, pretty much makes you a hypocrite. And I'd love to talk to either of you in PMs, I don't want to crap on this thread like you would like to. But neither of you has made it to that step yet. HoN gets more variety into the picks, all 3 different styles of game have been succesfully achieved (heavy farm-carry based, Gank-heavy style, Push heavy style), there's much more variety in the heros picked when compared to DotA. So in terms of more skill being needed, there's inherently more variety in high level HoN, which insinuates more knowledge and skill being required. Several of the items were better balanced, making some of the useless ones from DotA really have solid roles (Hand of Midas --> alch bones comes to mind as a recent example), you see much more variety in the items picks, all 5 different types of boots get selected often for a concrete example, striders being brought in makes heavy support roles much more skill-oriented. But really, I'm not going to sit here and list all the small differences that make HoN more varied and demanding than DotA, if you want to talk, take it to PMs. The fact you can even think HoN can have "a far" greater skill level when the games are relatively similar is crazy. 1. The viable hero pool in dota is larger than HoNs. HoN has 75 heroes in total, in ONE 2010 Dota tournament (SMM) 72 unique heroes were picked. Hmmm. Source.2. Have you ever played support for a good team in dota? There's a lot more to it than buying wards and placing them. 3. Dota is played a lot more and a lot higher level both in EU and in Asia. Have you even seen the Chinese dota scene? And as Judicator said, basing your opinions on a old version of dota that you played a bit and a game you currently play and follow is just amazingly dumb. Hilarious. I don't think anyone in this thread is capable of even getting through my post, no one seems to have read it, at all. Across 4 times I've been quoted, 2 of the points I have made have been addressed, and only 1 successfully. Congrats, you've countered 1 of my 9 points. Well done! Also, I posted my MMR because someone basically said that I "tried" it and didn't have much experience in it. I'm not a braggart, nor do I think my MMR itself validates my opinion I already knew I wouldn't convince anyone to change their opinion, you love DotA, and you hate to see a game take everything great about it, and get rid of so many bad parts of the game. I love DotA too guys. I love it too. My favorite parts of your hilarious flailing against my point of view: 1) telling me how hard ward whoring is (completely off-topic and a perfect exhibition of inability to read before blathering) 2) Calling me an A-hole scrub because someone asking for the level of my ingame experience and me giving it to them 3) Showing me a list of heros picked in DotA, and once again using the fact that DotA has more heroes total as evidence that it takes more skill. 4) I'm sorry, but you guys missed the mark. If you want to get trashed by this scrub in either game, hit me up! Oh wait, I don't think any of you have the MMR to run into me in HoN.  see, I can be petty and infantile too! Edit: adding to the list of hilarious flailing against my posts, sorry there was just too much
I didn't even know you had 9 points to make and I didn't know you had evidence, if you please could spell it out for us. Here, I'll do it in Wikipedia format.
For someone who steps in and lectures me on debate tactics and formalities, coming in and saying I'm wrong without a "because" of your own, pretty much makes you a hypocrite.
And I'd love to talk to either of you in PMs, I don't want to crap on this thread like you would like to. But neither of you has made it to that step yet.
HoN gets more variety into the picks[citation needed], all 3 different styles of game have been succesfully achieved (heavy farm-carry based, Gank-heavy style, Push heavy style)[citation needed], there's much more variety in the heros picked when compared to DotA.[citation needed] So in terms of more skill being needed, there's inherently more variety in high level HoN[citation needed], which insinuates more knowledge and skill being required[citation needed].
Several of the items were better balanced[citation needed, give us more than one], making some of the useless ones from DotA really have solid roles (Hand of Midas --> alch bones comes to mind as a recent example), you see much more variety in the items picks[citation needed], all 5 different types of boots get selected often for a concrete example[citation needed, unimportant example since this happens in DotA], striders being brought in makes heavy support roles much more skill-oriented[citation needed].
But really, I'm not going to sit here and list all the small differences that make HoN more varied and demanding than DotA, if you want to talk, take it to PMs.
"Crap" heroes in DotA:
Huskar (killing yourself for more single attack damage is risky, competitively this is too unreliable and he scales extremely badly into late game, but I think he's a very fun hero to play)
Chaos Knight (i think he's just way too random and awkward to be solidly viable, if you asked me he has a higher chance of shittiness than goodness)
Ogre Magi doesn't apply because even though Firebolt is similar he has two solid spells and Multicast was redone in such a way that Multicast is not some dice roll = faggotry.
Useless items in DotA:
Bloodstone/Soul Booster (personally I think other items are more important for being so expensive)
Basher (except on a couple select heroes, useless on 99% of ranged)
MoM (just too dangerous a tradeoff on 95% of heroes, same argument as Huskar)
I do not think Hand of Midas is a useless item like the above.
Are you on the TL clan? Can somebody substantial from the TL clan please tell us how professional this guy is? I don't care about numbers at all unless you've been above 1900 PSR because I don't know if anybody can vouch for your supposed skill here. If you think support roles are ezpz and without HoN items they're a near skillless role then I think that's more than enough knowledge to think you're a scrub.
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rabidch and judicator may insult you to the ground during debates, but they're actually very knowledgeable and there's a lot of depth in their posts ;p
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On March 17 2011 13:57 TheMusiC wrote:
rabidch and judicator may insult you to the ground during debates, but they're actually very knowledgeable and there's a lot of depth in their posts ;p
Look only scrubs take it personally, if you get all butthurt cause you're wrong and know that you're wrong but refuse to accept it, you'll never get better. Honestly, that's what caps like 90% of all NA DotA players.
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So if I play HoN and I take a masochistic attitude towards my play to the point of picking the username "PrettyBad" am I part of that 10%? 
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On March 17 2011 11:33 [TYG]Transcend wrote:
So guys. Ghost Scepter on Axe. Shinbi says hi.
<3
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On March 17 2011 14:18 JeeJee wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 11:33 [TYG]Transcend wrote:
So guys. Ghost Scepter on Axe. Shinbi says hi. <3
shinbi is actually somebody else. jeejee is forever jeejee
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On March 17 2011 14:18 rabidch wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 14:18 JeeJee wrote:On March 17 2011 11:33 [TYG]Transcend wrote:
So guys. Ghost Scepter on Axe. Shinbi says hi. <3 shinbi is actually somebody else. jeejee is forever jeejee
tinyurl.com/shinbi
edit: omg i am gonna put this in my sig to get more signatures
yay :3
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On March 17 2011 14:44 rabidch wrote:![[image loading]](http://dl.dropbox.com/u/70857/wc3/WC3ScrnShot_031611_184429_03.jpg)
Lol 3 stacks of bears in a row, 4th one spawned troll warlord ):
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Oh man that was a good read. 1734 and bragging about it? bahaha sorry
this thread still delivers the lols
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I see your yogi bears and raise you:
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/wZhIR.jpg)
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Useless items in DotA:
Basher (except on a couple select heroes, useless on 99% of ranged)
MoM (just too dangerous a tradeoff on 95% of heroes, same argument as Huskar)
Basher and MoM make up for the most godly combination of items one can ever hope to attain in dota.
Do it! and Khala will be with you!
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If mom was cancelable similar to armlet do you think it would be more viable?
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On March 17 2011 18:24 don_kyuhote wrote:Show nested quote +
Useless items in DotA:
Basher (except on a couple select heroes, useless on 99% of ranged)
MoM (just too dangerous a tradeoff on 95% of heroes, same argument as Huskar)
Basher and MoM make up for the most godly combination of items one can ever hope to attain in dota. Do it! and Khala will be with you!
bloodstone/basher/mom machinegun-??? build
On March 17 2011 18:56 Az0r_au wrote:
If mom was cancelable similar to armlet do you think it would be more viable?
depending on cooldown/different status, i think it would make those that it works on, void, sven, sb, even better + naix,leo,ck,bs, but im not so sure for the rest of the lineup because many of them cant work with the tradeoff or the orb effect, and many of these heroes are not that viable and i dont see them being that much more viable with a different mom. but i dont think it would have a substantial effect on the rest of the heroes depends on the cooldown/buffs
buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut this is what i expect, if i actually was able to use it my reaction might be different. im not entirely sure since i havent used mom on some heroes in a long long time
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On March 17 2011 19:21 rabidch wrote:
depending on cooldown/different status, i think it would make those that it works on, void, sven, sb, even better + naix,leo,ck,bs, but im not so sure for the rest of the lineup because many of them cant work with the tradeoff or the orb effect, and many of these heroes are not that viable and i dont see them being that much more viable with a different mom. but i dont think it would have a substantial effect on the rest of the heroes depends on the cooldown/buffs
buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut this is what i expect, if i actually was able to use it my reaction might be different. im not entirely sure since i havent used mom on some heroes in a long long time
I think it would be a decent change most of those heroes listed need a bump (especially leo,ck,sb). When you say heroes that cant give up the orb effects are you thinking along the lines of ranged agi carries like drow?
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On March 17 2011 19:30 Az0r_au wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 19:21 rabidch wrote:
depending on cooldown/different status, i think it would make those that it works on, void, sven, sb, even better + naix,leo,ck,bs, but im not so sure for the rest of the lineup because many of them cant work with the tradeoff or the orb effect, and many of these heroes are not that viable and i dont see them being that much more viable with a different mom. but i dont think it would have a substantial effect on the rest of the heroes depends on the cooldown/buffs
buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut this is what i expect, if i actually was able to use it my reaction might be different. im not entirely sure since i havent used mom on some heroes in a long long time I think it would be a decent change most of those heroes listed need a bump (especially leo,ck,sb). When you say heroes that cant give up the orb effects are you thinking along the lines of ranged agi carries like drow?
no, because drow is a paper hero early game and only becomes less so with bkb and hotd thanks to the exorbitant amount of damage she can get. heroes im thinking of is broodmother, antimage, who can do a lot of damage very quick without items and have some sort of escape/defense mechanism
mom might improve magnataur also.
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On March 11 2011 06:44 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2011 05:17 Az0r_au wrote:
I'm not bad (im not good either) just frustrated and jaded. I've played >25 games and im at 1750mmr. Orb walking doesnt seem to add any benefit in HON is what I should have said (I may be doing it wrong but if its the same as dota then im doing it right), you attack just as fast by right clicking than by manualy doing it. I cant speak to anything above 1800mmr but so far it seems PB are picked ALOT more than in Dota. I remember looking at the item use stats on getdota.com and PB was like >5%. Orb walking prevents enemy creeps from coming over and hitting you, which is very useful for harassing.
OH GOD DAMNIT THAT WAS MY ONE THOUSANDTH POST MEANT TO CELEBRATE GETTING THE REPORT BUTTON AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH...
In other news. Dota is harder for me than HoN.
Edit: Rofl I just realized it's been exactly one year since I joined TL
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http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTg5NzU4Mjg0.html
this video is a bit old, but
i never realized how badly ehome rolled eswc (14-0 is yeah, but look at those game lengths), basically all of the highlights rolled into one.
still a real pity merlini didnt go, and that terribad ehome vs nirvana.int game
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EPT
