On August 04 2023 18:18 Magic Powers wrote: There was a comically large number of red flags prior to the release of the game, but Blizzard shills pushed it hard like it was the second coming of Christ. It's unacceptable that this game could, at best, receive a 7/10 from someone like MrLlamaSC. It should be an easy 8-9/10 for him.
The heavy focus on the "endgame" prior to release is a soulless endeavor, because it takes all the focus away from the development of the first playthrough. Both fans and developers of D4 were constantly worried about endgame satisfaction. I think that was a big mistake. The first playthrough alone should be satisfying enough to warrant the whole purchase. Consecutive playthroughs should be reserved for people who get addicted to the process, and endgame playability should be reserved exclusively for superfans. Blizzard completely failed to consider that.
The first wave of consumers doesn't care about endgame, and rightfully so because replaying the same content over and over gets real dull real quick for most people. Most people want a few dozen hours of fun and then they tend to move on. That means the game has to be at its best during the first hours. D4 completely missed that mark.
On August 04 2023 14:20 evilfatsh1t wrote: im not surprised at the amount of "review bombing" d4 received. blizzard spent years developing the game and they tried to be as proactive as possible in receiving feedback throughout the development. an open alpha and an open beta also took place in which they received even more feedback on the game. i think if blizzard had a stronger vision for their game and they actually didnt involve so many fans and community members as part of the development process, they would have a longer rope. but if youve chosen to include the fanbase in the development process and you go around marketing the point about how much youre trying to implement feedback, you cant be surprised when you release a game that is subpar and seemingly lacking in many areas which there was obviously a lot of criticism and feedback for. d4 should rightfully get poor reviews after release then because they cant demand leniency at that point anymore
good points. also, Community Managers with not much life experience are making a bad life mistake trying to pretend they are "buddies" with their consumer base. it leads to nasty personal attacks when an immature , weirdo customer who hides behind anonymity and a keyboard gets super personal.
... I legitimately don't think Poe is better than D4 its just that poe focuses more on variety than quality and because its a free game it works.
In what sense better exactly?
I've just watched streams and a playthrough of the campaign but graphics, story, classes, skills, pots, everything just looks a lot tighter and more quality for its time. I think Poe pulls away due to its end game and its depth but first time experience and first 50 hours D4 just seems better. That being said poe is free and I have 728 hours on just the steam client version.
On August 04 2023 18:18 Magic Powers wrote: There was a comically large number of red flags prior to the release of the game, but Blizzard shills pushed it hard like it was the second coming of Christ. It's unacceptable that this game could, at best, receive a 7/10 from someone like MrLlamaSC. It should be an easy 8-9/10 for him.
The heavy focus on the "endgame" prior to release is a soulless endeavor, because it takes all the focus away from the development of the first playthrough. Both fans and developers of D4 were constantly worried about endgame satisfaction. I think that was a big mistake. The first playthrough alone should be satisfying enough to warrant the whole purchase. Consecutive playthroughs should be reserved for people who get addicted to the process, and endgame playability should be reserved exclusively for superfans. Blizzard completely failed to consider that.
The first wave of consumers doesn't care about endgame, and rightfully so because replaying the same content over and over gets real dull real quick for most people. Most people want a few dozen hours of fun and then they tend to move on. That means the game has to be at its best during the first hours. D4 completely missed that mark.
Diablo 4 sold enough that, as an outsider I’d confidently wager that a large chunk of the playerbase were probably looking a fun, relatively casual playthrough or two, trying out all the various classes and would be happy putting in a hundred hours or so or w/e
It seems as an outsider most of the vocal community feedback comes from hardcore ARPG fans who have very different expectations.
I can’t think of many games with such a split playerbase, not to say every call Blizz made here was good either.
SC2 the playerbase is a tad split along race biases but all agitation at least comes almost exclusively from people who want to play a 1v1 competitive game. To take one example.
... I legitimately don't think Poe is better than D4 its just that poe focuses more on variety than quality and because its a free game it works.
In what sense better exactly?
I've just watched streams and a playthrough of the campaign but graphics, story, classes, skills, pots, everything just looks a lot tighter and more quality for its time. I think Poe pulls away due to its end game and its depth but first time experience and first 50 hours D4 just seems better. That being said poe is free and I have 728 hours on just the steam client version.
Are we talking D4 vs PoEM?
Graphics - 2023 vs 2013... Thats really an unfair comparison. I do want to give you the point though, since Blizzard is very good at nailing (D3 is the exepction for me) atmosphere and especially animation, engine and feeling of skills etc.
Story - I am not a gigantic story guy but Path of Exiles story is very deep and rich. What it lacks is outside of voiced dialogue the Presentation via cinematics and Ingame sequences.
Otherwise its a superior story even though I grew up with Diablo.
Classes, Skills - this is absolutely incredibly in favor of PoE. Both depth as well as system. Options, customization... Generally really just literally everything. I am not sure what d4 would bring to the table here?
Pots - I dont enjoy poe's flask piano. I think the system itself isnt bad but Poe (1) has issues that needs to be adressed. I do Like Diablo 4 pot-mechanics i have to say!
So not really sure what you saw but I have a completely different picture here
I think diablo story is just superior in basicly every game because poe story is just so bad. And I played a ton of poe. It's just so much easier to make a story based on diablo. I've no idea who kitava is or whatever the bosses are called
On August 06 2023 06:16 TaKeTV wrote:Pots - I dont enjoy poe's flask piano. I think the system itself isnt bad but Poe (1) has issues that needs to be adressed. I do Like Diablo 4 pot-mechanics i have to say!
IMO, Flask piano isn't really an issue anymore, since they added in game Flask automation. I don't piano at all anymore.
On August 06 2023 07:24 sertas wrote: I think diablo story is just superior in basicly every game because poe story is just so bad. And I played a ton of poe. It's just so much easier to make a story based on diablo. I've no idea who kitava is or whatever the bosses are called
I think PoE lore + narrative is way better than D4. They do more with less. The atmosphere / graphics / cutscenes of D4 are great but they don't do a good job of making you care about anyone. Like when Dolan's son was waving around death flags, I was just so checked out.
This might be more of an opinion thing. I've just been pretty disappointed with D4 story.
On August 05 2023 23:55 WombaT wrote: Diablo 4 sold enough that, as an outsider I’d confidently wager that a large chunk of the playerbase were probably looking a fun, relatively casual playthrough or two, trying out all the various classes and would be happy putting in a hundred hours or so or w/e
It seems as an outsider most of the vocal community feedback comes from hardcore ARPG fans who have very different expectations.
I think the majority of D4 buyers went away happy. Much smoother launch than D3, amazing gameplay, enough build variety and itemization for your average gamer, at least 50 hours of good fun. Up to 100+ hours depending on your taste.
A large variety of my gaming friends played it, and though most have quit by now, only the ARPG Hardcore fans have the biggest complaints. The issue for Blizzard, though, is if they can maintain a dedicated + money-spending audience.
On August 04 2023 18:18 Magic Powers wrote: There was a comically large number of red flags prior to the release of the game, but Blizzard shills pushed it hard like it was the second coming of Christ. It's unacceptable that this game could, at best, receive a 7/10 from someone like MrLlamaSC. It should be an easy 8-9/10 for him.
The heavy focus on the "endgame" prior to release is a soulless endeavor, because it takes all the focus away from the development of the first playthrough. Both fans and developers of D4 were constantly worried about endgame satisfaction. I think that was a big mistake. The first playthrough alone should be satisfying enough to warrant the whole purchase. Consecutive playthroughs should be reserved for people who get addicted to the process, and endgame playability should be reserved exclusively for superfans. Blizzard completely failed to consider that.
The first wave of consumers doesn't care about endgame, and rightfully so because replaying the same content over and over gets real dull real quick for most people. Most people want a few dozen hours of fun and then they tend to move on. That means the game has to be at its best during the first hours. D4 completely missed that mark.
More I think about it more I agree. You have succinctly captured my perspective on D4. Blizzard spent too much time fantasizing about selling battle passes 4 seasons a year instead of making a game that actually makes you want to play 4 times a year.
On August 04 2023 18:18 Magic Powers wrote: There was a comically large number of red flags prior to the release of the game, but Blizzard shills pushed it hard like it was the second coming of Christ. It's unacceptable that this game could, at best, receive a 7/10 from someone like MrLlamaSC. It should be an easy 8-9/10 for him.
The heavy focus on the "endgame" prior to release is a soulless endeavor, because it takes all the focus away from the development of the first playthrough. Both fans and developers of D4 were constantly worried about endgame satisfaction. I think that was a big mistake. The first playthrough alone should be satisfying enough to warrant the whole purchase. Consecutive playthroughs should be reserved for people who get addicted to the process, and endgame playability should be reserved exclusively for superfans. Blizzard completely failed to consider that.
The first wave of consumers doesn't care about endgame, and rightfully so because replaying the same content over and over gets real dull real quick for most people. Most people want a few dozen hours of fun and then they tend to move on. That means the game has to be at its best during the first hours. D4 completely missed that mark.
More I think about it more I agree. You have succinctly captured my perspective on D4. Blizzard spent too much time fantasizing about selling battle passes 4 seasons a year instead of making a game that actually makes you want to play 4 times a year.
I think the model they went with kind of reflects that.
Full price retail + transitioning into battle passes and seasons, that they’re spreading risk.
I actually actively like the Battle Pass/F2P model for some games, despite many gamers screeching about it. Works fantastic for a game like Fortnite. Sub model works for a game like WoW, stand-alone retail releases work great for many a game.
Here it feels they’ve diluted some of the benefits of a full price feature-complete game by tooling and designing it for seasonal shifting content. But they haven’t gone all-in on the seasonal shifting content and all that entails either.
I really don't think there is a high number of battle pass purchases after the inital "free" one which some bought with their edition. They would have to put in as much new content as was in the original game and hype it up. Otherwise all players go to BG3 now and PoE2 later, never again touching D4
On August 07 2023 16:34 Harris1st wrote: I really don't think there is a high number of battle pass purchases after the inital "free" one which some bought with their edition. They would have to put in as much new content as was in the original game and hype it up. Otherwise all players go to BG3 now and PoE2 later, never again touching D4
There's probably some overlap between the players who enjoy action/real-time combat and those who enjoy turn-based combat, but the Diablo and Baldur's Gate franchises don't necessarily have the same audience. I'm taking a pass on BG3 because I find that combat to be way too slow for my personal taste (for a video game), despite playing D&D with some friends. Overlap between Diablo and PoE is probably more likely imo, as they're the same sub-genre of RPG.
But you're totally right that D4 would really have to produce a lot of new seasonal content to keep people interested. Season 1 has some new content, but I'd need more to be retained for Seasons 2 or 3.
On August 07 2023 16:34 Harris1st wrote: I really don't think there is a high number of battle pass purchases after the inital "free" one which some bought with their edition. They would have to put in as much new content as was in the original game and hype it up. Otherwise all players go to BG3 now and PoE2 later, never again touching D4
There's probably some overlap between the players who enjoy action/real-time combat and those who enjoy turn-based combat, but the Diablo and Baldur's Gate franchises don't necessarily have the same audience. I'm taking a pass on BG3 because I find that combat to be way too slow for my personal taste (for a video game), despite playing D&D with some friends. Overlap between Diablo and PoE is probably more likely imo, as they're the same sub-genre of RPG.
But you're totally right that D4 would really have to produce a lot of new seasonal content to keep people interested. Season 1 has some new content, but I'd need more to be retained for Seasons 2 or 3.
I assume that most casual players are actually not genre specific but just jump on to every new hype game which BG3 definitely is (and from what I heard deservedly so). Like a large portion of players goes from D4 to BG3 to Starfield to Stalker 2.
This is just personal observation and I do not have a source for this
On August 07 2023 16:34 Harris1st wrote: I really don't think there is a high number of battle pass purchases after the inital "free" one which some bought with their edition. They would have to put in as much new content as was in the original game and hype it up. Otherwise all players go to BG3 now and PoE2 later, never again touching D4
There's probably some overlap between the players who enjoy action/real-time combat and those who enjoy turn-based combat, but the Diablo and Baldur's Gate franchises don't necessarily have the same audience. I'm taking a pass on BG3 because I find that combat to be way too slow for my personal taste (for a video game), despite playing D&D with some friends. Overlap between Diablo and PoE is probably more likely imo, as they're the same sub-genre of RPG.
But you're totally right that D4 would really have to produce a lot of new seasonal content to keep people interested. Season 1 has some new content, but I'd need more to be retained for Seasons 2 or 3.
I assume that most casual players are actually not genre specific but just jump on to every new hype game which BG3 definitely is (and from what I heard deservedly so). Like a large portion of players goes from D4 to BG3 to Starfield to Stalker 2.
This is just personal observation and I do not have a source for this
The players that are enjoying variety and not a specific (or multiple) genres are very hard to bind in any case. I dont think that can be the goal. The overall appeal should obviously to bind people that are actually interested in the genre - either long term or reoccuring due to seasons.
PoE illustrates pretty well that you don't need to sustain an immense player base through the full season at any time but activity in waves. Obviously player retention is important but if D4 brings out a very good season I can absolutely see it sparking interest of many again.
The story itself and it's presentation are imo way superior in D4. PoE has maybe 3 notable characters, with Sin being the only recurring one and Sin is basically a running exposition with very little character himself. I cared a lot more about characters in D4 (which doesn't mean that I cared for all of them) and overall there's a clear progression and connection between events that happen. I don't think D4 nails this perfectly, but unlike D3 it doesn't shit the bed and unlike PoE it actually spends significant time on this. Lilith also gets multitudes of exposition compared to Kitava who more or less comes out of nowhere and whose sole background is a prophecy (which doesn't come true) and whose only character trait is that he's Ungoliath.
In terms of background lore PoE feels like a deeper game, with a lot of tidbits flying around for enemies and a more creative backstory than the eternal conflict. Sure D4 does a lot of things right as well, with lots of minor quests that show how demonic corruption works and changes people, but imo PoE has more different less standard things meshing decently well and f.e. the empire and it's downfall is fairly interesting. Especially D4's bosses really struggle from the lack of exposition imo.
This somewhat ties into D4 just having worse level design imo, PoE is in terms of visual design imo a better game. D4 leaned a bit too heavily into the dark and desaturated and coupled with it's low amount of different enemy models new areas don't really feel like new areas. In PoE areas feel very different.
I agree though that for most people D4 is going to be about 1-2 playthroughs and PoE is about keeping their crowd occupied with their humongous lategame.
On August 08 2023 03:46 Archeon wrote: On D4's story compared to PoE's story:
The story itself and it's presentation are imo way superior in D4. PoE has maybe 3 notable characters, with Sin being the only recurring one and Sin is basically a running exposition with very little character himself. I cared a lot more about characters in D4 (which doesn't mean that I cared for all of them) and overall there's a clear progression and connection between events that happen. I don't think D4 nails this perfectly, but unlike D3 it doesn't shit the bed and unlike PoE it actually spends significant time on this. Lilith also gets multitudes of exposition compared to Kitava who more or less comes out of nowhere and whose sole background is a prophecy (which doesn't come true) and whose only character trait is that he's Ungoliath.
In terms of background lore PoE feels like a deeper game, with a lot of tidbits flying around for enemies and a more creative backstory than the eternal conflict. Sure D4 does a lot of things right as well, with lots of minor quests that show how demonic corruption works and changes people, but imo PoE has more different less standard things meshing decently well and f.e. the empire and it's downfall is fairly interesting. Especially D4's bosses really struggle from the lack of exposition imo.
This somewhat ties into D4 just having worse level design imo, PoE is in terms of visual design imo a better game. D4 leaned a bit too heavily into the dark and desaturated and coupled with it's low amount of different enemy models new areas don't really feel like new areas. In PoE areas feel very different.
I agree though that for most people D4 is going to be about 1-2 playthroughs and PoE is about keeping their crowd occupied with their humongous lategame.
Yes, the low amount of enemy model is what surprised me the most. The art is great in D4, much better than the cartoonish D3. Of course, D2 resurrected shows what I think had the greatest balance.
On August 08 2023 03:46 Archeon wrote: This somewhat ties into D4 just having worse level design imo, PoE is in terms of visual design imo a better game. D4 leaned a bit too heavily into the dark and desaturated and coupled with it's low amount of different enemy models new areas don't really feel like new areas. In PoE areas feel very different.
I agree on enemy design but giving flak for the "dark and gritty" level desgin is unfair. After all it's what most people wanted. Though they could have distinguished the zones more. I remember Act 5 of D2 and how scary and cold it was. You could almost feel the cold
On August 08 2023 03:46 Archeon wrote: This somewhat ties into D4 just having worse level design imo, PoE is in terms of visual design imo a better game. D4 leaned a bit too heavily into the dark and desaturated and coupled with it's low amount of different enemy models new areas don't really feel like new areas. In PoE areas feel very different.
I agree on enemy design but giving flak for the "dark and gritty" level desgin is unfair. After all it's what most people wanted. Though they could have distinguished the zones more. I remember Act 5 of D2 and how scary and cold it was. You could almost feel the cold
My take on that is that there's a bit of a misunderstanding between various fans of Diablo that spread over to the developers.
If we look back at D1, it's actually a very bright and colorful game that heavily utilizes shadow and reduced vision to create a sense of claustrophobia from confined spaces and terror from dark corners. Items with + to vision are sparse in the early part of the game, and some items were specifically designed to further reduce vision.
D2 has a lot of open space and vision is increased in the overworld (besides certain weather conditions). Vision is somewhat reduced in tunnels, and shadows are again used to great effect. There's still a reasonable balance between visibility and lack thereof, and contrast is also utilized in many places. The game is more colorful than D1, but with those additional colors there's a slightly reduced contrast due to a greater variety of colors and shades and less pixelation.
D3 was bright and colorful during its first stage of development. This, in my opinion, triggered the downfall of the visual direction of the series - because I think it led to a complete misunderstanding resulting in heavy (and I think unreasonable) backlash. Some people said the game was too bright and colorful, others said it was too cartoony, some even said both. I remember back then I somewhat agreed with the cartoony argument, but I strongly disagreed with the bright colors argument. Color and brightness was previously, as explained, a regular and fundamental element of the visual side of the Diablo series. The series had been selectively utilizing bright colors to create a distinct atmosphere and to make certain objects and environments more distinguished and to hide others from sight. The backlash resulted in more washed out colors in D3, while changing very little about the cartoony element. There was no upside in that. It was a feel-good policy that made the critics feel acknowledged instead of being an actual solution to the problem.
Fast forward to D4 and suddenly everything has to be gray and washed out to such an extreme degree that everything blends into everything. There's practically no contrast, nothing sticks out. That's not exactly "in the spirit of the Diablo series". That's the opposite of the spirit. And I'm not arguing that the developers couldn't go in this direction if they thought it had merit, but the reality is that D4 is absolutely not at all a spiritual successor to D1 and D2. If there's merit in this visual direction, then it's completely unrelated to the original Diablo games. What this means is that there's not actually any pandering going on to the original fans of Diablo. There's pandering going on to people who have no idea what Diablo actually used to be like.
Who are those people? I don't know where they came from, but they're not my fellow og Diablo fans.
^ completely agree. It was Blizzard's responsibility to separate real feedback from whiny noise. They completely overrated on what they thought was the Diablo "vision" and made a game that is a caricature of D2. The self-imposed realism limits them to a point where the game prioritizes being 'gritty' over being fun. The skills are so wildly uninteresting as to limit replayability badly, IMO. There's no fun to be had shooting high mana cost, high cooldown, zero AoE grey skills over a brown background.
EPT
