Conquest's unit viability is exceptional for a game that still maintains such a high level of difficulty. Previous entries in the series that have similarly balanced viability largely do so off being comparatively easier games (ignoring Thracia, since while it's a difficult game, the unit viability is largely a product of mechanics like fatigue and dismounted indoor maps forcing you to diversify your roster).

Conquest and Thracia do share some traits in this regard, such as using non-combat benefits to diversify the strengths of weaker combat units. While many games in the series are such that units without good combat fail to contribute at all, Thracia and Conquest both give plenty of varied benefits to make those non-combat characters useful, with skills being a defining one in both.

andrewlt

United States7702 Posts

April 04 2016 16:40 GMT

#842

This discussion is making me feel like my birthright run is being heavily impacted by RNG. Kinshi knight Hinoka is by far the craziest stat-monster I have so she's pretty good even though she doesn't have a special weapon like Ryoma or Takumi. Assuming 4 stat gains per level up, I think she's about 30 points ahead of almost everybody except Oboro and Sakura. I just started recruiting the kids and they can't keep up with those 3. Kinda expected Hinoka to be a stat monster but not by that much. And Sakura's growths have been surprising. Have her paired up with Hayato and I ended up having him heal after promotion.

My falcon knight Sakura is bulkier than Ryoma and my master ninja Corrin. I just got her to D-rank spears so I'm about to buy that magic naginata from the shop and see how she does. Was planning on using her just as a flying staff bot but those stats. Corrin and Silas are still good but it looks like they've had less luck on the RNG front.

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

April 04 2016 16:52 GMT

#843

It's pretty normal for Hinoka to end up as your statistically-strongest unit. It's not just her growths, but also how much higher her bases are than any similar-level unit at her join time. It's just that her statistical advantage doesn't translate into her being your most *useful* unit, since she can't do 1-2 range enemy phase routing when Birthright is all about that.

Bolt Naginata Sakura is pretty good if her HP/Def roll well and she has not-awful bulk. I've had it work out on my first Birthright run, but it's not reproducible. Hayato actually ends up quite good if you bother to raise him, it's just that raising a trainee/Est is pretty pointless in Birthright when the route never gets difficult enough for your early-midgame bases units to fall off completely.

Alventenie

United States2147 Posts

April 04 2016 17:13 GMT

#844

I must have been unlucky for my Birthright runs. My Hinoka almost never ends up being strong enough for the late chapters. My Sakura though once I promoted her actually was decent (I of course was slow and actually heal botted her to level 20 before promotion so she was a lot of levels behind with such a late promote).

VayneAuthority

United States8983 Posts

April 04 2016 17:21 GMT

#845

yea even though I iron man'd birthright I have little incentive to even want to try other characters now that I know the rout is just 1-2 range routing on enemy phase as yango said. Basically would just be for the support convos which arent THAT interesting to play it again

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

April 04 2016 17:25 GMT

#846

The route still plays fast and not a chore to play through so there's lots of fun stuff you can do like Bolt Axe Rinkah or Master Ninja Silas.

If you want something challenging, Birthright is anything but, but it's also still just fun to play.

VayneAuthority

United States8983 Posts

April 04 2016 17:51 GMT

#847

master ninja silas reminds me.... Anyone else find mechanist being the alternative absolutely infuriating? Its worse in every way possible and the type you counter is in like...1 level? lol

chocorush

694 Posts

April 04 2016 18:30 GMT

#848

Mechanist's level 15 ability is one of the best abilities in the game. You don't need it by any means, but if you have it, it's really silly.

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

April 04 2016 18:34 GMT

#849

Replicate alone is enough to justify Mechanist as a class. Beyond that, the stat spread is pretty nice for Kaze or Kagero who have overkill speed anyway and enjoy the better Str/Def. Master Ninja has better pair-up bonuses though and it's skills are also good too, so you kind of just bounce your Ninjas between both promotions once Heart Seals are unlimited.

Puppet Break is a little more useful on Conquest than Birthright, but you can still more or less pretend it doesn't exist.

VayneAuthority

United States8983 Posts

April 04 2016 18:38 GMT

#850

I just meant using mechanist as a class itself, you would most likely reclass after getting replicate in 99% of cases. Was mostly talking about how silly golembane is when theres like 1 level its usable

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

April 04 2016 18:42 GMT

#851

It's still fine for Kaze/Kagero in Birthright. The speed drop is basically irrelevant to both of them, and the higher base bulk and Str help to balance them out a bit when they otherwise wouldn't have enough. Golembane is a bad skill, but Lethality isn't horribly useful either for maingame purposes, since it's proc chance will stay in the single digit %s, which you can't plan around.

The main draw of Master Ninja is the much more focused pair up bonuses and the passive stats (Master Ninja has passive +5% Hit/Crit/Avo/CEv). Its bases/growths are actually quite lopsided which can be awkward (Saizo's growths happen to complement them well, which is why he usually turns out as the most balanced of the 3 on Birthright). Master Ninja's pair up bonuses are in too high demand during Conquest, so it's hard to use Mech Kaze there, but on Birthright most units don't need the Speed pairup.

chocorush

694 Posts

April 04 2016 18:48 GMT

#852

It's a fine class on it's own imo. Bow/shuriken has good synergy in that you have really strong player and enemy phase options. Bows actually have notably more attacking power until you get kunai faire because of higher base might, and can double at range unlike physical swords.

+1 movement is arguably more useful than sword access on a +str corrin. I can see how preferentially people will tend to like master ninja more, but both are strong if you get both classes skills.

andrewlt

United States7702 Posts

April 04 2016 19:41 GMT

#853

I've been going slow on birthright hard because I'm trying to play it like the old GBA game and distributing kills around. I probably made a few middle chapters harder than they should be because I'm trying to let the other chars I use catch up to Corrin and Ryoma and Takumi. Hayato ended up with disappointing mag for me and both Kaze and Rinkah just had abysmal str and defenses and abysmal level ups in general during my run. Saizo was the ninja I ended up benching so my ninjas don't have the strength and bulk to 1RKO everything on enemy phase. Oh well.

Marrying Hinoka to a ninja would probably result in a very easy difficulty.

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

April 04 2016 20:08 GMT

#854

Hinoka pairs poorly with the Ninjas because she uses the Ninja pair up bonuses pretty poorly. Saizo would be the most practical since he at least uses her pair up bonuses decently (Spd + Res), but it would be an entirely one-sided pairing, and even then, they don't have any classes with overlapping weapon ranks, so they gain no useful reclass options.

Hinoka's best option on Birthright is Silas, since not only do their pair-up bonuses complement each other well (Silas gets Spd+Res, Hinoka gets Str+Def), they also get a lot of mileage out of reclassing into each other's classes--Hinoka in particular benefits a lot from getting access to the Cav skills, while Silas can use a level in Sky Knight to get Darting Blow.

Cricketer12

United States13974 Posts

April 04 2016 20:52 GMT

#855

On April 05 2016 04:41 andrewlt wrote:
I've been going slow on birthright hard because I'm trying to play it like the old GBA game and distributing kills around. I probably made a few middle chapters harder than they should be because I'm trying to let the other chars I use catch up to Corrin and Ryoma and Takumi. Hayato ended up with disappointing mag for me and both Kaze and Rinkah just had abysmal str and defenses and abysmal level ups in general during my run. Saizo was the ninja I ended up benching so my ninjas don't have the strength and bulk to 1RKO everything on enemy phase. Oh well.

Marrying Hinoka to a ninja would probably result in a very easy difficulty.

Kaze with Rinkah pair up made him very competent in my runs. Plenty of str from the pair up. Especially in the earlier levels.

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

April 04 2016 20:56 GMT

#856

Kaze is pretty much always going to be the best Ninja early due to his availability lead and the fact that Saizo's speed doesn't pick up till after promotion. Rinkah's his best pair up option, but if he doesn't also get his Str/Def to proc enough he'll still fall a bit short by endgame.

VayneAuthority

United States8983 Posts

April 04 2016 21:04 GMT

#857

kaze was too paper for my tastes, he gave nice pair up bonuses though as a barebones master ninja

chocorush

694 Posts

April 04 2016 21:17 GMT

#858

I've ended up benching Kaze in pretty much every run I've done so far. Birthright was pretty bullshit about his availability and in Conquest there are so many units I like to choose from that I never really use him.

Kind of hope the ninjas are a one off thing in the series. I don't particularly like shurikens design wise and it just doesn't feel right in the players hands.

andrewlt

United States7702 Posts

April 04 2016 21:44 GMT

#859

I did do the Silas/Hinoka and Kaze/Rinkah pairings. Unfortunately, I never did get lucky with both Kaze and Rinkah. They both ended with very poor str and Kaze's str was just abysmal. They both ended up with poor all around stats in general.

Which children are the most worth getting in the different routes? Which paralogues have useful stuff even if I don't plan on using the children? I just grabbed Ryoma's, Azura's, Silas' and Subaki's kids to replace the pairings that got a bit rng screwed.

Frudgey

Canada3367 Posts

April 04 2016 21:51 GMT

#860

On April 05 2016 06:44 andrewlt wrote:
I did do the Silas/Hinoka and Kaze/Rinkah pairings. Unfortunately, I never did get lucky with both Kaze and Rinkah. They both ended with very poor str and Kaze's str was just abysmal. They both ended up with poor all around stats in general.

Which children are the most worth getting in the different routes? Which paralogues have useful stuff even if I don't plan on using the children? I just grabbed Ryoma's, Azura's, Silas' and Subaki's kids to replace the pairings that got a bit rng screwed.

I can't speak about Birthright children, but for Conquest I highly recommend Percy. In particular, the Arthur/Effie combination seems to be quite potent, as that gets you a pretty powerful Percy. A PPP, if you will.