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On April 03 2016 05:39 Frudgey wrote:
I think the thing I like the most about this is that it makes you really question who the real villain of the game is.
Find out in Fire Emblem Fates: Revelation!
Except not. Rev doesn't really make things much clearer than Conquest already did, other than giving the villain a name and a face. Who they actually are as a character isn't made clear until you buy some additional DLC!
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On April 03 2016 05:40 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2016 05:39 Frudgey wrote:
I think the thing I like the most about this is that it makes you really question who the real villain of the game is. Find out in Fire Emblem Fates: Revelation! Except not. Rev doesn't really make things much clearer than Conquest already did, other than giving the villain a name and a face. Who they actually are as a character isn't made clear until you buy some additional DLC!
What I was trying (poorly) to get at was + Show Spoiler +If the avatar could have jumped of the chasm and prevented basically the entire plot of Conquest, wouldn't that make them an enabler of King Garon? That's just as bad if you ask me! In fact, you could make a case that the Avatar is the worse villain because they willingly performed an alternate method to expose King Garon which arguably costed thousands more lives. All this while appearing as the good guy!
That's some real Lawful Evil stuff right there.
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On April 03 2016 05:46 Frudgey wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2016 05:40 TheYango wrote:On April 03 2016 05:39 Frudgey wrote:
I think the thing I like the most about this is that it makes you really question who the real villain of the game is. Find out in Fire Emblem Fates: Revelation! Except not. Rev doesn't really make things much clearer than Conquest already did, other than giving the villain a name and a face. Who they actually are as a character isn't made clear until you buy some additional DLC! What I was trying (poorly) to get at was + Show Spoiler +If the avatar could have jumped of the chasm and prevented basically the entire plot of Conquest, wouldn't that make them an enabler of King Garon? That's just as bad if you ask me! In fact, you could make a case that the Avatar is the worse villain because they willingly performed an alternate method to expose King Garon which arguably costed thousands more lives. All this while appearing as the good guy!
That's some real Lawful Evil stuff right there.
+ Show Spoiler +Someone actually raised an interesting point in a discussion I saw before.
When Zola captures the Hoshidan royals in Chapter 18 and plans to execute them, his logic is actually sound: at the cost of the 4 Hoshidan royals' lives, thousands more innocent lives can be spared in the war because the war would immediately end right there. For Corrin, who's avoided killing people to an unrealistic degree, this should present a meaningful moral dilemma, since it's weighing his personal attachment to these 4 people against his philosophical aversion to unnecessary death.
Unfortunately, this moral dilemma never gets any development. Everyone denounces Zola as despicable, nobody calls out Corrin on his hypocrisy, and the plot continues as if this never happened.
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On April 03 2016 05:37 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2016 05:28 Alventenie wrote:
I liked Birthright for the overall character developments. I felt that you learned more about how each character grew during the story where as Conquest was more about how naive the Avatar was until the end. Conquest is about + Show Spoiler +Azura's magic crystal ball showing the Avatar that Garon happens to be a goo monster and their quest to go to Hoshido and make him sit on the Hoshidan magic chair that just happens to exist and turn Garon back into the goo monster that he is.
When in fact the Avatar could have just brought his siblings to the Infinite Chasm, jumped off, and come back in like 5 minutes to show them he wasn't crazy. But apparently it's easier to march halfway across the world, start a war, and kill thousands of people just to make the goo monster sit on the magic chair.
"Listen Big Brother Ryoma, trust me".
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On April 03 2016 05:52 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2016 05:46 Frudgey wrote:On April 03 2016 05:40 TheYango wrote:On April 03 2016 05:39 Frudgey wrote:
I think the thing I like the most about this is that it makes you really question who the real villain of the game is. Find out in Fire Emblem Fates: Revelation! Except not. Rev doesn't really make things much clearer than Conquest already did, other than giving the villain a name and a face. Who they actually are as a character isn't made clear until you buy some additional DLC! What I was trying (poorly) to get at was + Show Spoiler +If the avatar could have jumped of the chasm and prevented basically the entire plot of Conquest, wouldn't that make them an enabler of King Garon? That's just as bad if you ask me! In fact, you could make a case that the Avatar is the worse villain because they willingly performed an alternate method to expose King Garon which arguably costed thousands more lives. All this while appearing as the good guy!
That's some real Lawful Evil stuff right there. + Show Spoiler +Someone actually raised an interesting point in a discussion I saw before.
When Zola captures the Hoshidan royals in Chapter 18 and plans to execute them, his logic is actually sound: at the cost of the 4 Hoshidan royals' lives, thousands more innocent lives can be spared in the war because the war would immediately end right there. For Corrin, who's avoided killing people to an unrealistic degree, this should present a meaningful moral dilemma, since it's weighing his personal attachment to these 4 people against his philosophical aversion to unnecessary death.
Unfortunately, this moral dilemma never gets any development. Everyone denounces Zola as despicable, nobody calls out Corrin on his hypocrisy, and the plot continues as if this never happened.
Zola is Tywin Lannister
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On April 03 2016 05:52 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2016 05:46 Frudgey wrote:On April 03 2016 05:40 TheYango wrote:On April 03 2016 05:39 Frudgey wrote:
I think the thing I like the most about this is that it makes you really question who the real villain of the game is. Find out in Fire Emblem Fates: Revelation! Except not. Rev doesn't really make things much clearer than Conquest already did, other than giving the villain a name and a face. Who they actually are as a character isn't made clear until you buy some additional DLC! What I was trying (poorly) to get at was + Show Spoiler +If the avatar could have jumped of the chasm and prevented basically the entire plot of Conquest, wouldn't that make them an enabler of King Garon? That's just as bad if you ask me! In fact, you could make a case that the Avatar is the worse villain because they willingly performed an alternate method to expose King Garon which arguably costed thousands more lives. All this while appearing as the good guy!
That's some real Lawful Evil stuff right there. + Show Spoiler +Someone actually raised an interesting point in a discussion I saw before.
When Zola captures the Hoshidan royals in Chapter 18 and plans to execute them, his logic is actually sound: at the cost of the 4 Hoshidan royals' lives, thousands more innocent lives can be spared in the war because the war would immediately end right there. For Corrin, who's avoided killing people to an unrealistic degree, this should present a meaningful moral dilemma, since it's weighing his personal attachment to these 4 people against his philosophical aversion to unnecessary death.
Unfortunately, this moral dilemma never gets any development. Everyone denounces Zola as despicable, nobody calls out Corrin on his hypocrisy, and the plot continues as if this never happened.
+ Show Spoiler +I feel like this adds to my theory that the Avatar truly is the villain!
In all seriousness though, I think Zola's tactics are controversial to say the least. While agree with is methods (killing the four royals there would end the war and save thousands) I do also see the... uh... "lesson" that Nintendo would be trying to teach. I just don't it was portrayed in a realistic scenario. Nor do I think Nintendo would want to pursue this very interesting philosophical dilemma, because that's just something I don't see modern Nintendo do.
A real life analogy would be if the United States was justified in dropping the atomic bomb on Japan. I don't wish to make light of such an event, but rather I would like to point out that the dropping of the bomb had interesting philosophical considerations.
In the context of Fire Emblem, I think the "logical" course of action would have been to kill the nobles. Not saying it would have been easy, but I think that would have been the best choice to stem unnecessary loss of life. And then we could have experienced the rest of the game (well technically it would have ended there) with a despondent avatar, who realizes that sometimes one must make great sacrifice for the good of others.
I don't think Nintendo would have gone for that though, but that's just me.
On April 03 2016 05:53 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2016 05:37 TheYango wrote:On April 03 2016 05:28 Alventenie wrote:
I liked Birthright for the overall character developments. I felt that you learned more about how each character grew during the story where as Conquest was more about how naive the Avatar was until the end. Conquest is about + Show Spoiler +Azura's magic crystal ball showing the Avatar that Garon happens to be a goo monster and their quest to go to Hoshido and make him sit on the Hoshidan magic chair that just happens to exist and turn Garon back into the goo monster that he is.
When in fact the Avatar could have just brought his siblings to the Infinite Chasm, jumped off, and come back in like 5 minutes to show them he wasn't crazy. But apparently it's easier to march halfway across the world, start a war, and kill thousands of people just to make the goo monster sit on the magic chair. "Listen Big Brother Ryoma, trust me".
Okay this is a bit of a personal beef, but something that bothered me a little bit with the Hoshido royals was that they were like, "Hey you should join us because we're you biological siblings! Fighting for us is the right thing for you to do because we're biologically related!"
I mean of course it's much deeper than that, but I just wanted to say something about it. I think it'd be a lot different if the Hoshidos were a group of corrupt people.
And I'm just thinking, what does being biologically related have to do with anything? Just because you're biologically related to someone I don't think that means you have any obligation to them. For me Family are people who treat you as such. Just because someone is biologically related to you doesn't mean you have to consider them family.
Okay sorry I'm done. I'll stop derailing this thread with philosophy.
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On April 03 2016 06:07 Frudgey wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2016 05:52 TheYango wrote:On April 03 2016 05:46 Frudgey wrote:On April 03 2016 05:40 TheYango wrote:On April 03 2016 05:39 Frudgey wrote:
I think the thing I like the most about this is that it makes you really question who the real villain of the game is. Find out in Fire Emblem Fates: Revelation! Except not. Rev doesn't really make things much clearer than Conquest already did, other than giving the villain a name and a face. Who they actually are as a character isn't made clear until you buy some additional DLC! What I was trying (poorly) to get at was + Show Spoiler +If the avatar could have jumped of the chasm and prevented basically the entire plot of Conquest, wouldn't that make them an enabler of King Garon? That's just as bad if you ask me! In fact, you could make a case that the Avatar is the worse villain because they willingly performed an alternate method to expose King Garon which arguably costed thousands more lives. All this while appearing as the good guy!
That's some real Lawful Evil stuff right there. + Show Spoiler +Someone actually raised an interesting point in a discussion I saw before.
When Zola captures the Hoshidan royals in Chapter 18 and plans to execute them, his logic is actually sound: at the cost of the 4 Hoshidan royals' lives, thousands more innocent lives can be spared in the war because the war would immediately end right there. For Corrin, who's avoided killing people to an unrealistic degree, this should present a meaningful moral dilemma, since it's weighing his personal attachment to these 4 people against his philosophical aversion to unnecessary death.
Unfortunately, this moral dilemma never gets any development. Everyone denounces Zola as despicable, nobody calls out Corrin on his hypocrisy, and the plot continues as if this never happened. + Show Spoiler +I feel like this adds to my theory that the Avatar truly is the villain!
In all seriousness though, I think Zola's tactics are controversial to say the least. While agree with is methods (killing the four royals there would end the war and save thousands) I do also see the... uh... "lesson" that Nintendo would be trying to teach. I just don't it was portrayed in a realistic scenario. Nor do I think Nintendo would want to pursue this very interesting philosophical dilemma, because that's just something I don't see modern Nintendo do.
A real life analogy would be if the United States was justified in dropping the atomic bomb on Japan. I don't wish to make light of such an event, but rather I would like to point out that the dropping of the bomb had interesting philosophical considerations.
In the context of Fire Emblem, I think the "logical" course of action would have been to kill the nobles. Not saying it would have been easy, but I think that would have been the best choice to stem unnecessary loss of life. And then we could have experienced the rest of the game (well technically it would have ended there) with a despondent avatar, who realizes that sometimes one must make great sacrifice for the good of others.
I don't think Nintendo would have gone for that though, but that's just me.
+ Show Spoiler +
I don't disagree with the outcome that they chose, but the fact that the story never brings this up as a dilemma as any sort and just dismisses Zola as being irredeemably evil and just moves on feels like a missed opportunity for Corrin to grow meaningfully as a character.
Zola's arc in Birthright is executed far more convincingly.
On April 03 2016 06:07 Frudgey wrote:
Okay this is a bit of a personal beef, but something that bothered me a little bit with the Hoshido royals was that they were like, "Hey you should join us because we're you biological siblings! Fighting for us is the right thing for you to do because we're biologically related!"
And I'm just thinking, what does being biologically related have to do with anything? Just because you're biologically related to someone I don't think that means you have any obligation to them. For me Family are people who treat you as such. Just because someone is biologically related to you doesn't mean you have to consider them family.
Okay sorry I'm done. I'll stop derailing this thread with philosophy.
It's even better because + Show Spoiler [Revelation] +they're not actually your biological siblings and Ryoma actually knows this.
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Failed on kotarou, but have a mostly solid strategy manipulating Saizo.
Nosferatu works really well despite the nerfs but poses a bit of a conundrum for resource management. My general plan was to make a somewhat underperforming Odin a tank, but Ophelia also makes really good use of dragon shields and angelic robes. Elise also could use an angelic robe at 24 health, but I rarely put her on the front line. Both Corrin and Odin could use the talismans as well and I'm not sure who can use it better and have been sitting on it.
Azura on the other hand somehow has gotten 10 points of defense in level ups so far.
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On April 03 2016 06:10 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2016 06:07 Frudgey wrote:
Okay this is a bit of a personal beef, but something that bothered me a little bit with the Hoshido royals was that they were like, "Hey you should join us because we're you biological siblings! Fighting for us is the right thing for you to do because we're biologically related!"
And I'm just thinking, what does being biologically related have to do with anything? Just because you're biologically related to someone I don't think that means you have any obligation to them. For me Family are people who treat you as such. Just because someone is biologically related to you doesn't mean you have to consider them family.
Okay sorry I'm done. I'll stop derailing this thread with philosophy. It's even better because + Show Spoiler [Revelation] +they're not actually your biological siblings and Ryoma actually knows this.
*Incoherent angry ramblings*
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On April 03 2016 06:22 Frudgey wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2016 06:10 TheYango wrote:On April 03 2016 06:07 Frudgey wrote:
Okay this is a bit of a personal beef, but something that bothered me a little bit with the Hoshido royals was that they were like, "Hey you should join us because we're you biological siblings! Fighting for us is the right thing for you to do because we're biologically related!"
And I'm just thinking, what does being biologically related have to do with anything? Just because you're biologically related to someone I don't think that means you have any obligation to them. For me Family are people who treat you as such. Just because someone is biologically related to you doesn't mean you have to consider them family.
Okay sorry I'm done. I'll stop derailing this thread with philosophy. It's even better because + Show Spoiler [Revelation] +they're not actually your biological siblings and Ryoma actually knows this. *Incoherent angry ramblings*
I believe that's supposed to be:
*Groans of increasing discomfort*
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On April 03 2016 06:25 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2016 06:22 Frudgey wrote:On April 03 2016 06:10 TheYango wrote:On April 03 2016 06:07 Frudgey wrote:Okay this is a bit of a  Personal beef, but something that bothered me a little bit with the Hoshido royals was that they were like, "Hey you should join us because we're you biological siblings! Fighting for us is the right thing for you to do because we're biologically related!" And I'  M  just thinking, what does being biologically related have to do with anything? just because you're biologically related to someone I don't think that means you have any obligation to them. For me Family are people WhO treat you as such. just because someone is biologically related to you doesn't Mean you have to consider them family. Okay Sorry I' M done. I'll stop derailing this thread with philosophy. It's even better because + Show Spoiler [Revelation] +they're not actually your biological siblings and Ryoma actually knows this. *Incoherent angry ramblings* I Believe that's supposed to be: *Groans of increasing discomfort*
+ Show Spoiler +Its a shame that that isnt a much more popular meme, also, I figured out that fact in birthright by S-ranking one of the nobles. They get a letter from Mikoto that predicted the S-rank.
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On April 03 2016 06:52 Cricketer12 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Its a shame that that isnt a much more popular meme, also, I figured out that fact in birthright by S-ranking one of the nobles. They get a letter from Mikoto that predicted the S-rank.
+ Show Spoiler +Yeah I know it's in Birthright as well, I just labeled it as a Rev spoiler to prevent people who played BR but still didn't know from accidentally spoiling themselves.
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Ya know, when I was younger, back in the mid-90s, story and plot was one of the biggest points in the Japanese games I played. I played the Blizzard games, X-Com, Civ, Red Alert vs the FF games and a bunch of other JRPGs. Japanese games stood out for actually having more of a story.
Nowadays, I play Japanese RPGs and SRPGs more for the gameplay than anything else. I enjoy the Persona, Etrian, Fire Emblem type games for their gameplay but the story of most of these games haven't aged well. Persona is a bit of an exception because of its style. The games reuse too many shounen style cliches.
I'm in the middle of birthright (supposedly the route with the most coherent story) and the story already looks silly to me. The biggest disconnect is Nohr. There are just way too many good characters who act totally oblivious to all the evil characters they have. Almost all, if not all, Hoshidans are recycled Nippon tropes from any generic JRPG. Comparing gameplay to food, this is pretty much comfort food for me. I just can't take the story seriously any more.
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On April 03 2016 09:45 andrewlt wrote:
Comparing gameplay to food, this is pretty much comfort food for me. I just can't take the story seriously any more.
This is a pretty good analogy, lol.
Wait till you get to Conquest. I consider Conquest's gameplay to be the at the pinnacle of the series (on gameplay, I think it's the best English-localized FE, and at least top 3 if we include all titles in the series), but boy does the story take a nosedive.
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Studios are extremely inept at writing from the villain's point of view, It was to be expected. So far the conquest early game is very cringe and makes little sense.
The early game is struggle city again though. Is there a good strategy for the Ice Tribe chapter in conquest?
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On April 03 2016 11:02 VayneAuthority wrote:
Studios are extremely inept at writing from the villain's point of view, It was to be expected. So far the conquest early game is very cringe and makes little sense.
The early game is struggle city again though. Is there a good strategy for the Ice Tribe chapter in conquest?
For hard? I rushed to bottom left tried to get those houses, then moves up and right from there. Made it much more manageble but there were some very close calls...
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On April 03 2016 11:39 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2016 11:02 VayneAuthority wrote:
Studios are extremely inept at writing from the villain's point of view, It was to be expected. So far the conquest early game is very cringe and makes little sense.
The early game is struggle city again though. Is there a good strategy for the Ice Tribe chapter in conquest? For hard? I rushed to bottom left tried to get those houses, then moves up and right from there. Made it much more manageble but there were some very close calls...
nah for lunatic. I get that you have to abuse niles high res and effie's high def but choke points are nonexistant. I'm at a loss on how to clear this without severe RNG praying
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Lunatic it's still pretty easy to rush the left side and get the two houses there.
First turn grab the house and move everyone as far left as possible.
Second turn Niles can pair up on Odin and attack the mages. Continue moving everyone else as far to the left as possible but out of freeze range and use the first dragon vein on the right side. This prevents the mages from attacking Niles at one range and should clear them out enemy phase.
Third turn, Silas should be able to reach Flora. Your strategy can divert from here, but the key is that she will not use freeze if she can attack. You can use the second dragon vein to freeze the axes again or you can pull them.
Fourth turn you can reach the north west house. The south west house should be easy to get at your leisure.
That's just one way. If you're strong enough it's pretty easy to rush the north side as well, but you probably need +str avatar or paladin Jacob.
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thats what I originally tried, I have +str avatar and tried rushing north side and freezing the lancer. but after that it quickly went to shit as the top mid section of the map just ovewhelmed. I'll have to try going left side this time. Don't have jakob, I have felicia.
I heard chapter 10 is way harder so saving dread scrolls for then if i have to use em
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On April 03 2016 13:08 VayneAuthority wrote:
thats what I originally tried, I have +str avatar and tried rushing north side and freezing the lancer. but after that it quickly went to shit as the top mid section of the map just ovewhelmed. I'll have to try going left side this time. Don't have jakob, I have felicia.
I heard chapter 10 is way harder so saving dread scrolls for then if i have to use em
Its not pretty...
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EPT
