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On October 22 2014 05:22 Teoita wrote:
Dk's didn't exist in BC....anyway, by modern standards, let's be honest, but lots of things about the game have improved. Specs being viable, questing being viable instead of fucking farming mobs for days, pvp not being a horrible painful grind...
Yeah, and mana being a pointless resource... oh wait.
Let's just stop at "they are different" and to each their own. ;D
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anyway, by modern standards, let's be honest, but lots of things about the game have improved. Specs being viable, questing being viable instead of fucking farming mobs for days, pvp not being a horrible painful grind...
I don't disagree to an extend. Extend meaning, warlords of draenor. While things are still playable, half of your face is falling asleep now while doing so. MoP did alot of good things and obviously the game improved alot over the years (i remember grinding mobs as a rogue in vanilla to get the gold for my epic mount, took weeks - never wanna do that again).
But that doesn't mean that everything they do is pure gold and the right direction. WoD (rather, the idea behind it) would've been a good expansion, i do agree with pruning and squishing and whatnot - but the execution is more than poor. It's dumb, and you can feel in every class that this was designed by people with little experience.
edit: actually, WoD still might be a good expansion content-wise. Garrison etc looks interesting, so i'm literally talking game/class-mechanics here.
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Italy12247 Posts
Again, even comparing mechanics, wod still beats vanilla. Warlocks couldn't dot a mob to keep sunder armor from falling off. Tanks never put more than 15 points into prot because all they needed to generate threat were sunder and revenge anyway. Mage dps was literally spam fireball/frostbolt for the whole encounter.
What i do miss most from the earlier days are the need for cc (especially now that every class has it available) and threat being meaningful. Stuff like rotation, or even mana management vs it being irrelevant now as a caster (pray i get the resto shaman/shadow priest group! plz raid leader plz!) are way, way better now
Vanilla was amazing because at the time wow was more grand and epic than any other game. Many players first started playing during it, and i think that the very first level up/play through of wow is probably one of the best video game experiences out there, because at the end of the day Azeroth is fucking awesome, period. It was also a very, very young game though.
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On October 22 2014 06:50 Teoita wrote:
Again, even comparing mechanics, wod still beats vanille. Warlocks couldn't dot a mob to keep sunder armor from falling off. Tanks never put more than 15 points into prot because all they needed to generate threat were sunder and revenge anyway. Mage dps was literally spam fireball/frostbolt for the whole encounter.
I think its more complicated than that; sure, the specifics of playing classes well in vanilla seem ridiculous, poorly designed, and potentially broken from the today's perspective, but if we are to assess the "quality" of the mechanics, I think it makes sense to adjust the background expectations that go into deciding what "quality" really is. Most of the dumb stuff from Vanilla and BC is not that dumb relative to the general pool of knowledge in MMORPG game design and play of the time. Many of the problems faced by Blizzard in the first few years of WoW, from silly single spell pally healing to the Corrupted Blood pandemic, were first encounters with these sorts of design flaws, particularly since WoW was the first MMORPG to attract enough players to really produce a granular aggregate of data on performance issues with which to identify and fix design flaws. It is with that in mind that many people take issue with Blizzard's choices in MoP and WoD; it can be argued that, effectively, they should know better by now. Personally, I think they are doing a fine job and think WoD is going to be great, but those who disagree are not lacking justification.
Edit: lol your edit took the wind out of my sails 
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The problem is that WoW went from "revolutionary" to "treading water" around Wrath. That's when all the "WoW but with X thing that's arguably better" clones started to come out and WoW began adopting their innovations to keep up, with very little new innovation of its own.
At this point, companies are avoiding releasing WoW-like games in general, and new MMOs are tending to go in different directions with combat, crafting, leveling, and skills, all things that WoW is too locked into to change.
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What i do miss most from the earlier days are the need for cc (especially now that every class has it available) and threat being meaningful.
Meehee, ima rogue, lemme briefly backstab twice in a row and.. ahm.. yo mate, could you rezz me? :/
I died so many times before i realised that threat is actually a thing. ^^ .. Apart from that, yes - Magisters Terrace pre-nerf, that was a dungeon i liked. Or in general, BC pre-nerf heroics (shattered halls <3). Basically the dungeons, in which you'd get raped if you play like you do nowadays in dungeons. I play mage and don't have sheep in my bar. I don't even have it on the sidebar, where i put "rarely clicked things".
edit: honestly, for WoD dungeons they should've just added a buff on trashmobs, basically a group of 5 mobs gets 100% bonus damage, and for every mob you CC they'll do 20% less, something like that. Some incentive to actually utilize your kit.
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Italy12247 Posts
I keep my sheep bound out of general principle, but even casting it on Garrosh trash is sad. The first time i had to do it i thought that the mobs had bugged out.
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On October 22 2014 06:50 Teoita wrote:
Again, even comparing mechanics, wod still beats vanilla. Warlocks couldn't dot a mob to keep sunder armor from falling off. Tanks never put more than 15 points into prot because all they needed to generate threat were sunder and revenge anyway. Mage dps was literally spam fireball/frostbolt for the whole encounter.
You could perfectly use the dots for the majority of vanilla, they increased the amount of Debuffs slots, i don't remember if it was already on MC, or starting BWL, as a lock, i don't remember having problems getting my 3 dots on target from BWL and onwards, immolate could be pointless tho. Warriors just spammed sunder armor, because they didn't have exactly a pletora of skills to generate threat (shield slam if specced into it, sunder armor, revenge, heroic strike on swing, which was freaking awesome and i hate blizzard for "improving the mechanichs of heroic strike"), so it wasn't going to drop anyways.
How is that about tanks a flaw ? I am curious, do you think a tank should just go "full protection" instead of getting the talents needed to fulfill its role ? Threat was important on many fights, so you got what you needed to perform well.
Mage was a crap class for pve (as boring), i give you that, but to be fair, movement and dps'ing at the same time has been always the real deal for raids, every sit down and do your rotation until it's down, is boring by default. Also, real caster men played SM/Ruin. :DD
But look at nowadays, do you see the warrior arms like an improvement from vanilla? hell it is even worse... after 10 years. The whole tanking / threat generation skyrocketing so the nukers don't need to worry about going full dps. The mana management, what's that ? There are classes much more interesting tho (demonologist for example, compared to the old soul link lock...), but with WoD, many classes aren't really much more complex.
And "even mechanichs"... seriously... if the mechanichs weren't more refined after 10 years, pull the cord and close the show. I can point out to stuff which is crap (you speak about pvp grind, i tell you instanced pvp crap), but that would be only in my opinion.
Gear ? Look at how they have gone from more depth, to less depth... pairing with vanilla level of secondary affixes.
As i said before, we could start argueing about this for pages, and we won't come to an agreement, because it is mostly perspective and taste, than facts. Warrior arms... it is horrible, i am just finishing it in hopes blizzard isn't completely retarded and give it overpower or something back, because it is like playing a vanilla warrior, but withouth overpower, slam and off global cooldown heroic strike. Yeah, a freaking dumbed down version of vanilla.
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I only twink a mage, and i clicked(!) lesser invisibility while leveling more than i used sheep. That tells the whole story, honestly. ^^
Coming to think of it, i actually didn't use it once so far.
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But look at nowadays, do you see the warrior arms like an improvement ?
Compared to vanilla, the MoP-warrior was better, yes. In vanilla warriors actually had a reason to cry because of frostmages (they still do cry, even though they wreck frostis now if properly played). And it wasn't fun against warriors either as anything but frostmage, getting twohit by arcanite reapers left right and center was kinda.. meh. :/
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On October 22 2014 07:58 m4ini wrote:Compared to vanilla, the MoP-warrior was better, yes. In vanilla warriors actually had a reason to cry because of frostmages (they still do cry, even though they wreck frostis now if properly played). And it wasn't fun against warriors either as anything but frostmage, getting twohit by arcanite reapers left right and center was kinda.. meh. :/
We are not talking about MoP tho, we are talking about WoD.
Pretty much every single class could solo a warrior. In group pvp, they could be a pain, but like every class well played (except pally retry) in arenas nowadays, if you knew to play and coordinate, they weren't anything special. But of course, many people were running in that age with shitty intellect gear, instead of knowing what stamina they should had to be able to survive the typical ambush + backstab + cold blood evis, or an AP PoM pyro + fireblast, being able to turn to the tables.
Hell, people even cried that warlock was crap when it was indeed insanely overpowered at release.
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On October 22 2014 08:13 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2014 07:58 m4ini wrote:But look at nowadays, do you see the warrior arms like an improvement ? Compared to vanilla, the MoP-warrior was better, yes. In vanilla warriors actually had a reason to cry because of frostmages (they still do cry, even though they wreck frostis now if properly played). And it wasn't fun against warriors either as anything but frostmage, getting twohit by arcanite reapers left right and center was kinda.. meh. :/ We are not talking about MoP tho, we are talking about WoD.
Well they have less buttons to press than in vanilla i assume, so yeah. Warriors is (in my mind, and i just finished leveling mine to 90, tried arms) the class that actually feels worse than in vanilla. I have to check gladiator stance at some point (at 100, obviously), but warriors really got the finger this expansion - and i understand every furious (haha... 0,0) warrior complaining about it.
edit: 70, finally TT
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On October 22 2014 08:17 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2014 08:13 Godwrath wrote:On October 22 2014 07:58 m4ini wrote:But look at nowadays, do you see the warrior arms like an improvement ? Compared to vanilla, the MoP-warrior was better, yes. In vanilla warriors actually had a reason to cry because of frostmages (they still do cry, even though they wreck frostis now if properly played). And it wasn't fun against warriors either as anything but frostmage, getting twohit by arcanite reapers left right and center was kinda.. meh. :/ We are not talking about MoP tho, we are talking about WoD. Well they have less buttons to press than in vanilla i assume, so yeah. Warriors is (in my mind, and i just finished leveling mine to 90, tried arms) the class that actually feels worse than in vanilla. I have to check gladiator stance at some point (at 100, obviously), but warriors really got the finger this expansion - and i understand every furious (haha... 0,0) warrior complaining about it. edit: 70, finally TT
I destroyed the DPS charts because of the way Sudden Death works now...so many free execute procs...but they're nerfing it.
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On October 22 2014 06:29 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2014 06:28 ViperPL wrote:On October 22 2014 04:33 Godwrath wrote:On October 22 2014 04:15 m4ini wrote:
After levelling my mage from 63 to 67 today, i'm starting to think that there's a huge discrepancy in "xp-balance". It's kinda dumb to be able to level from 85 to 90 in two hours straight, but 60 to 65/70 takes you three times that much. oO
edit: well not two hours straight, but under three hours If you can reliabily queue up for dungeons, do it. It is much faster imo to level up that way at those levels. ViperPL, do you mean post patch ? Because XP changed a lot. I never did TBC levels post 6.0 so don't know if it changed, but before the patch it was very fast, unlike 85-90, which took forever. Now, after 6.0 I only did 85-90 and it was a breez, but no idea about Outland. It basically is the other way around now. 85-90 is almost too fast, and 65-70 takes waay too long now.
If this is true then that's a mega bummer. Working a lock up to 60 now so I'll see this for myself soon enough. Wonder why they bothered adjusting anything pre-85...?
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On October 22 2014 10:33 deth2munkies wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2014 08:17 m4ini wrote:On October 22 2014 08:13 Godwrath wrote:On October 22 2014 07:58 m4ini wrote:But look at nowadays, do you see the warrior arms like an improvement ? Compared to vanilla, the MoP-warrior was better, yes. In vanilla warriors actually had a reason to cry because of frostmages (they still do cry, even though they wreck frostis now if properly played). And it wasn't fun against warriors either as anything but frostmage, getting twohit by arcanite reapers left right and center was kinda.. meh. :/ We are not talking about MoP tho, we are talking about WoD. Well they have less buttons to press than in vanilla i assume, so yeah. Warriors is (in my mind, and i just finished leveling mine to 90, tried arms) the class that actually feels worse than in vanilla. I have to check gladiator stance at some point (at 100, obviously), but warriors really got the finger this expansion - and i understand every furious (haha... 0,0) warrior complaining about it. edit: 70, finally TT I destroyed the DPS charts because of the way Sudden Death works now...so many free execute procs...but they're nerfing it.
Did your feet fall asleep while doing so? I thought it's quite obvious that i was talking about "how the warrior plays", not where they are in dickmeters. Fury or Arms SD btw?
edit: has to be fury i suppose, since as arms SD is a dps net-loss.
If this is true then that's a mega bummer. Working a lock up to 60 now so I'll see this for myself soon enough. Wonder why they bothered adjusting anything pre-85...?
In all honesty, 60-70 feels now like it felt when BC came out. Like, you have to quest through zones. I actually quested completely through nagrand and blades edge (blades edge maybe 85%), and still had to run roughly 15 quests in netherstorm to finally hit 70. I went into nagrand at lvl 66 btw.
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On October 22 2014 11:20 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2014 10:33 deth2munkies wrote:On October 22 2014 08:17 m4ini wrote:On October 22 2014 08:13 Godwrath wrote:On October 22 2014 07:58 m4ini wrote:But look at nowadays, do you see the warrior arms like an improvement ? Compared to vanilla, the MoP-warrior was better, yes. In vanilla warriors actually had a reason to cry because of frostmages (they still do cry, even though they wreck frostis now if properly played). And it wasn't fun against warriors either as anything but frostmage, getting twohit by arcanite reapers left right and center was kinda.. meh. :/ We are not talking about MoP tho, we are talking about WoD. Well they have less buttons to press than in vanilla i assume, so yeah. Warriors is (in my mind, and i just finished leveling mine to 90, tried arms) the class that actually feels worse than in vanilla. I have to check gladiator stance at some point (at 100, obviously), but warriors really got the finger this expansion - and i understand every furious (haha... 0,0) warrior complaining about it. edit: 70, finally TT I destroyed the DPS charts because of the way Sudden Death works now...so many free execute procs...but they're nerfing it. Did your feet fall asleep while doing so? I thought it's quite obvious that i was talking about "how the warrior plays", not where they are in dickmeters. Fury or Arms SD btw? edit: has to be fury i suppose, since as arms SD is a dps net-loss. Show nested quote +If this is true then that's a mega bummer. Working a lock up to 60 now so I'll see this for myself soon enough. Wonder why they bothered adjusting anything pre-85...?
In all honesty, 60-70 feels now like it felt when BC came out. Like, you have to quest through zones. I actually quested completely through nagrand and blades edge (blades edge maybe 85%), and still had to run roughly 15 quests in netherstorm to finally hit 70. I went into nagrand at lvl 66 btw.
Whoever thinks that SD is an arms loss is fucking dumb. There is no way that a single target WW (which is the GCD you're using it over) does more than even a non-crit execute.
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On October 22 2014 11:54 deth2munkies wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2014 11:20 m4ini wrote:On October 22 2014 10:33 deth2munkies wrote:On October 22 2014 08:17 m4ini wrote:On October 22 2014 08:13 Godwrath wrote:On October 22 2014 07:58 m4ini wrote:But look at nowadays, do you see the warrior arms like an improvement ? Compared to vanilla, the MoP-warrior was better, yes. In vanilla warriors actually had a reason to cry because of frostmages (they still do cry, even though they wreck frostis now if properly played). And it wasn't fun against warriors either as anything but frostmage, getting twohit by arcanite reapers left right and center was kinda.. meh. :/ We are not talking about MoP tho, we are talking about WoD. Well they have less buttons to press than in vanilla i assume, so yeah. Warriors is (in my mind, and i just finished leveling mine to 90, tried arms) the class that actually feels worse than in vanilla. I have to check gladiator stance at some point (at 100, obviously), but warriors really got the finger this expansion - and i understand every furious (haha... 0,0) warrior complaining about it. edit: 70, finally TT I destroyed the DPS charts because of the way Sudden Death works now...so many free execute procs...but they're nerfing it. Did your feet fall asleep while doing so? I thought it's quite obvious that i was talking about "how the warrior plays", not where they are in dickmeters. Fury or Arms SD btw? edit: has to be fury i suppose, since as arms SD is a dps net-loss. If this is true then that's a mega bummer. Working a lock up to 60 now so I'll see this for myself soon enough. Wonder why they bothered adjusting anything pre-85...?
In all honesty, 60-70 feels now like it felt when BC came out. Like, you have to quest through zones. I actually quested completely through nagrand and blades edge (blades edge maybe 85%), and still had to run roughly 15 quests in netherstorm to finally hit 70. I went into nagrand at lvl 66 btw. Whoever thinks that SD is an arms loss is fucking dumb. There is no way that a single target WW (which is the GCD you're using it over) does more than even a non-crit execute.
The last time i checked, the tooltip even tells you that you will lose DPS. Every single proc under 20% is a net-dps loss. For the LFR, it doesn't really matter, but for bosses that live longer than 15 seconds under 20%, it's a pretty big deal.
As soon as you have an encounter with more than one target over the whole fight (even if it's just temporarily, like an add with 20% uptime) TfB is miles(!) better. The gap gets even bigger with T16 4pc.
No idea why you're comparing it with WW, since the only two things you can compare it with are TfB and slam, but whatever floats your boat. Hint: you can only compare SD with WW if you argue that it's either SD or no talent at all. Quite steep for someone who calls others "fucking dumb", to be honest. The math is out there, sims are out there, high-end warriors are raiding out there (and their logs are visible) - how about reading up on shit.
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I always smile when people say early Cata dungeons were coming back to TBC level of toughness, when in truth they were as facerolly (is that even a word?  ) as ever. They just increased mob dmg so healers with no gear had to drink mana all the time.
I really have a hard time believing SD for arms can offer more dps than the other talents. With 3,5s swing timer you get one extra execute every 17,5s on average, that's quite underwhelming. It might be good for pvp, where you just wait for SD proc, pop swifty and oneshot someone, but in a long boss encounter the extra rage for extra whirlwinds is probably better, especially in aoe situations.
Tbh I'm glad I have a rogue main for WoD, since they dodged the pruning axe the most out of all classes I think, and the biggest change I guess was losing rupture in combat and snd being passive as assassination. It's certainly better than warriors and the fact mortal strike lost it's original sound and animation and looks like slam now instead, wtf is this shit...
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On October 22 2014 13:55 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2014 11:54 deth2munkies wrote:On October 22 2014 11:20 m4ini wrote:On October 22 2014 10:33 deth2munkies wrote:On October 22 2014 08:17 m4ini wrote:On October 22 2014 08:13 Godwrath wrote:On October 22 2014 07:58 m4ini wrote:But look at nowadays, do you see the warrior arms like an improvement ? Compared to vanilla, the MoP-warrior was better, yes. In vanilla warriors actually had a reason to cry because of frostmages (they still do cry, even though they wreck frostis now if properly played). And it wasn't fun against warriors either as anything but frostmage, getting twohit by arcanite reapers left right and center was kinda.. meh. :/ We are not talking about MoP tho, we are talking about WoD. Well they have less buttons to press than in vanilla i assume, so yeah. Warriors is (in my mind, and i just finished leveling mine to 90, tried arms) the class that actually feels worse than in vanilla. I have to check gladiator stance at some point (at 100, obviously), but warriors really got the finger this expansion - and i understand every furious (haha... 0,0) warrior complaining about it. edit: 70, finally TT I destroyed the DPS charts because of the way Sudden Death works now...so many free execute procs...but they're nerfing it. Did your feet fall asleep while doing so? I thought it's quite obvious that i was talking about "how the warrior plays", not where they are in dickmeters. Fury or Arms SD btw? edit: has to be fury i suppose, since as arms SD is a dps net-loss. If this is true then that's a mega bummer. Working a lock up to 60 now so I'll see this for myself soon enough. Wonder why they bothered adjusting anything pre-85...?
In all honesty, 60-70 feels now like it felt when BC came out. Like, you have to quest through zones. I actually quested completely through nagrand and blades edge (blades edge maybe 85%), and still had to run roughly 15 quests in netherstorm to finally hit 70. I went into nagrand at lvl 66 btw. Whoever thinks that SD is an arms loss is fucking dumb. There is no way that a single target WW (which is the GCD you're using it over) does more than even a non-crit execute. The last time i checked, the tooltip even tells you that you will lose DPS. Every single proc under 20% is a net-dps loss. For the LFR, it doesn't really matter, but for bosses that live longer than 15 seconds under 20%, it's a pretty big deal. As soon as you have an encounter with more than one target over the whole fight (even if it's just temporarily, like an add with 20% uptime) TfB is miles(!) better. The gap gets even bigger with T16 4pc. No idea why you're comparing it with WW, since the only two things you can compare it with are TfB and slam, but whatever floats your boat. Hint: you can only compare SD with WW if you argue that it's either SD or no talent at all. Quite steep for someone who calls others "fucking dumb", to be honest. The math is out there, sims are out there, high-end warriors are raiding out there (and their logs are visible) - how about reading up on shit.
You have no idea how new Arms works, do you? There really is no point in the fight where rage is enough of an issue for TfB to matter except under 20% when you're spamming execute every GCD, and SD helps with that.
I haven't tried Slam, but I really doubt it's as good as SD given how often it procs. It's insane.
Edit: TfB may be better on multi-target fights if you have multiple rends up (I'm assuming that it works on all applications of rend) and you're constantly spamming Whirlwind. Still, it would be only marginally better than Slam/SD.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
They nerfing SD to 10% right? Was in the latest build anyway. As fury i am trying the bloodthirst has no cooldown (just .5second global i think it goes to) instead. Means you are not waiting for procs at least. You can hit BT and then be doing literally NOTHING until you proc a wildstrike or raging blow (or sudden death if you have that talent). At low rage, probs worth hitting wild strike if you have like 50 rage and nothing else to press xD
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EPT
