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Blizzard has never really gotten Moonkin right. Even in MoP, the amount of emphasis on the opener and random Starsurge procs was insane. When you base a large portion of your DPS on a random proc, you have a design problem.
WoD just makes it worse by fucking up the already stupid Eclipse bar to ridiculous degrees. I haven't played with it yet, but nothing about what they're telling me about it is making me happy that they're changing it.
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Romania24 Posts
On September 12 2014 23:05 deth2munkies wrote:
Blizzard has never really gotten Moonkin right. Even in MoP, the amount of emphasis on the opener and random Starsurge procs was insane. When you base a large portion of your DPS on a random proc, you have a design problem.
WoD just makes it worse by fucking up the already stupid Eclipse bar to ridiculous degrees. I haven't played with it yet, but nothing about what they're telling me about it is making me happy that they're changing it.
I actually like the current Eclipse mechanic. It's all about balancing Nature's Grace and DoT uptime. Snapshotting both DoTs when inside an eclipse while trinkets are active is really satisfying and can lead to some crazy DPS, but will make it difficult to reach the next Eclipse state before Nature's Grace expires (which in turn makes you incredibly slow and punishes your DPS).
Unfortunately, DoT snapshotting is getting removed in WoD which makes me a sad Boomkin. Oh well, there's always Kitty spec I guess.
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You know what's sad about it? There are plenty of very knowledgeable Moonkins out there that have made suggestions over the years, backed with loads of data and support from the community. Blizzard has always responded with "don't worry, we've got this" and then... they don't got this.
It's abundantly clear that Blizzard has no idea how to handle Moonkin (and to be honest they didn't know how to handle Bear, either, which is why they eventually copped out and made bear and cat separate specs). Druid has always been kind of a black sheep among the classes.
It's funny though because, like you mentioned, MoP was the best so far... but it wasn't really good; it was simply the least worst incarnation of the spec. Pretty much every issue with Moonkin can be attributed to one thing; the eclipse bar. I'm guessing it was the idea of a higher up in the company because it's very clearly the problem and yet they refuse to scrap it.
Let's put it this way... I've played Druid exclusively since BC, as either Bear or Moonkin. If I were to play WoD I wouldn't think twice about playing Resto instead. Again, the worst tragedy about the spec is that there are loads of suggestions floating around from very prominent Moonkins (people who raid in world first guilds, people who write Simcraft, etc) on how to fix the spec but Blizzard always seems to go the exact opposite direction (remove the eclipse bar? LETS MAKE IT MORE CORE TO THE SPEC INSTEAD).
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getting rid of necrotic strike finally means they might actually buff dk damage lmfao
also why is there a thing for queing dragon soul in LFR mode, the whole point would be to do rogue legendary quest but the required items dont drop in lfr difficulty?
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Italy12246 Posts
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On September 12 2014 21:31 Serejai wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2014 21:28 Mikau wrote:On September 12 2014 20:58 Serejai wrote:
It's really nothing new. That's how Blizzard as a company has operated for nearly a decade now; lie to customers, talk down to them, and the biggest thing that still pisses me off is how they cover up all of their mistakes. To this day they still deny hacks/dupes in WoW, and in most cases will ban you from the forums if you question them about it. It's quite sickening.
If recent years have shown us anything it's that Blizzard outright encourages that kind of behavior from their team members. One great example of this is Jay Wilson, and how he was promoted to a lead position on Titan for having a public meltdown over Diablo III. Tseric was another great example from back in the day, where he would literally go around belittling customers on the forums. I guess you've never played Ubisoft or EA games? I have, but this is a thread about World of Warcraft. Just because other companies are awful doesn't mean it's acceptable for Blizzard to go that route as well. You won't see me posting that in an EA/Ubisoft thread because, well, pretty much everyone already knows and accepts how terrible those companies are. The issue with Blizzard is that they are just as bad but for some reason people constantly defend them like they are the holy grail of gaming. Ten years ago? Yeah, Blizzard was amazing. Time to put down the nostalgia glasses, though; they haven't been the same company for a long while.
This makes no sense. The game was dogshit in terms of balance 10 years ago. Hasn't that what the last page has been about? Or were they being honest about the balance being dogshit 10 years ago but lying about it being better from WotLK on? And do you judge the game and its enjoyability solely on class balance?
Lying? Talking down to you? Covering up mistakes? Sounds like you are just projecting your own frustrations on to them. You don't have to defend them or even like the company to realize that it's a difficult job with likely no completely satisfying solution. At this point they are using 10 year old systems (stats), some doing jobs they weren't ever intended to do (PVP). Why don't you just accept any enjoyment you can get out of this game at this point as gravy?
Personally, I found Jay Wilson's response hilarious. Imagine that a who guy left your company on bad terms years ago and has no vested interest or anything to lose starts publicly backbiting you at a difficult part of a project he's never worked on with no other purpose than to undermine you. I'd say fuck that guy, too.
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Lol. What on earth are you talking about? We were discussing how Celestion, and Blizzard I'm general, has poor customer service skills and you jump in about game balance.
I also can't believe you think an acceptable, professional response to someone offering constructive criticism is to cuss them out on social media.
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On September 14 2014 05:38 Serejai wrote:
Lol. What on earth are you talking about? We were discussing how Celestion, and Blizzard I'm general, has poor customer service skills and you jump in about game balance.
I also can't believe you think an acceptable, professional response to someone offering constructive criticism is to cuss them out on social media.
The problem is they're fielding questions on Twitter. A lot of the actual questions require much more detailed answers to make sense and come of as condescending in 140 character bits.
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On September 14 2014 05:38 Serejai wrote:
Lol. What on earth are you talking about? We were discussing how Celestion, and Blizzard I'm general, has poor customer service skills and you jump in about game balance.
I also can't believe you think an acceptable, professional response to someone offering constructive criticism is to cuss them out on social media.
Do you know what customer service is?
And do you usually offer "constructive criticism" via social media?
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On September 14 2014 05:55 deth2munkies wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2014 05:38 Serejai wrote:
Lol. What on earth are you talking about? We were discussing how Celestion, and Blizzard I'm general, has poor customer service skills and you jump in about game balance.
I also can't believe you think an acceptable, professional response to someone offering constructive criticism is to cuss them out on social media. The problem is they're fielding questions on Twitter. A lot of the actual questions require much more detailed answers to make sense and come of as condescending in 140 character bits.
"It was."
Can fit a bit more into it then that.
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On September 14 2014 08:54 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2014 05:55 deth2munkies wrote:On September 14 2014 05:38 Serejai wrote:
Lol. What on earth are you talking about? We were discussing how Celestion, and Blizzard I'm general, has poor customer service skills and you jump in about game balance.
I also can't believe you think an acceptable, professional response to someone offering constructive criticism is to cuss them out on social media. The problem is they're fielding questions on Twitter. A lot of the actual questions require much more detailed answers to make sense and come of as condescending in 140 character bits. "It was." Can fit a bit more into it then that.
First off, I've been reading pretty much everything said on Twitter, and answers that short are not common to decent questions. Second, the guy speaking had no idea what he was talking about and had no evidence, he was just raging. Third, there's going to be no satisfying answer to that question in 140 characters because you have to show a bunch of analysis and numbers to prove your point, he shouldn't have responded to the question at all because it was impossible.
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On September 14 2014 11:45 deth2munkies wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2014 08:54 bo1b wrote:On September 14 2014 05:55 deth2munkies wrote:On September 14 2014 05:38 Serejai wrote:
Lol. What on earth are you talking about? We were discussing how Celestion, and Blizzard I'm general, has poor customer service skills and you jump in about game balance.
I also can't believe you think an acceptable, professional response to someone offering constructive criticism is to cuss them out on social media. The problem is they're fielding questions on Twitter. A lot of the actual questions require much more detailed answers to make sense and come of as condescending in 140 character bits. "It was." Can fit a bit more into it then that. First off, I've been reading pretty much everything said on Twitter, and answers that short are not common to decent questions. Second, the guy speaking had no idea what he was talking about and had no evidence, he was just raging. Third, there's going to be no satisfying answer to that question in 140 characters because you have to show a bunch of analysis and numbers to prove your point, he shouldn't have responded to the question at all because it was impossible.
You need to provide evidence that demo wasn't over performing by 33% in either sims or reality? Here's the latest simcraft btw, I'm sure if you add 33% to it it'll maybe be above the middle of the pack.
http://downloads.simulationcraft.org/raid-9-4-14.html
And why wouldn't he rage? A class that was performing in the middle of the pack aka balanced was just nerfed to below holy priests on simcraft (yes its not perfect, but it's a hell of a lot more accurate with the removal of snapshotting etc).
At what point are you allowed to call a stupid nerf stupid?
Having done so much raid testing on the beta I've got to ask you, have you stepped foot inside one of them?
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On September 14 2014 12:04 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2014 11:45 deth2munkies wrote:On September 14 2014 08:54 bo1b wrote:On September 14 2014 05:55 deth2munkies wrote:On September 14 2014 05:38 Serejai wrote:
Lol. What on earth are you talking about? We were discussing how Celestion, and Blizzard I'm general, has poor customer service skills and you jump in about game balance.
I also can't believe you think an acceptable, professional response to someone offering constructive criticism is to cuss them out on social media. The problem is they're fielding questions on Twitter. A lot of the actual questions require much more detailed answers to make sense and come of as condescending in 140 character bits. "It was." Can fit a bit more into it then that. First off, I've been reading pretty much everything said on Twitter, and answers that short are not common to decent questions. Second, the guy speaking had no idea what he was talking about and had no evidence, he was just raging. Third, there's going to be no satisfying answer to that question in 140 characters because you have to show a bunch of analysis and numbers to prove your point, he shouldn't have responded to the question at all because it was impossible. You need to provide evidence that demo wasn't over performing by 33% in either sims or reality? Here's the latest simcraft btw, I'm sure if you add 33% to it it'll maybe be above the middle of the pack. http://downloads.simulationcraft.org/raid-9-4-14.htmlAnd why wouldn't he rage? A class that was performing in the middle of the pack aka balanced was just nerfed to below holy priests on simcraft (yes its not perfect, but it's a hell of a lot more accurate with the removal of snapshotting etc). At what point are you allowed to call a stupid nerf stupid? Having done so much raid testing on the beta I've got to ask you, have you stepped foot inside one of them?
Now we're on to the substance rather than response. That I have no opinion on.
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On September 14 2014 12:18 deth2munkies wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2014 12:04 bo1b wrote:On September 14 2014 11:45 deth2munkies wrote:On September 14 2014 08:54 bo1b wrote:On September 14 2014 05:55 deth2munkies wrote:On September 14 2014 05:38 Serejai wrote:
Lol. What on earth are you talking about? We were discussing how Celestion, and Blizzard I'm general, has poor customer service skills and you jump in about game balance.
I also can't believe you think an acceptable, professional response to someone offering constructive criticism is to cuss them out on social media. The problem is they're fielding questions on Twitter. A lot of the actual questions require much more detailed answers to make sense and come of as condescending in 140 character bits. "It was." Can fit a bit more into it then that. First off, I've been reading pretty much everything said on Twitter, and answers that short are not common to decent questions. Second, the guy speaking had no idea what he was talking about and had no evidence, he was just raging. Third, there's going to be no satisfying answer to that question in 140 characters because you have to show a bunch of analysis and numbers to prove your point, he shouldn't have responded to the question at all because it was impossible. You need to provide evidence that demo wasn't over performing by 33% in either sims or reality? Here's the latest simcraft btw, I'm sure if you add 33% to it it'll maybe be above the middle of the pack. http://downloads.simulationcraft.org/raid-9-4-14.htmlAnd why wouldn't he rage? A class that was performing in the middle of the pack aka balanced was just nerfed to below holy priests on simcraft (yes its not perfect, but it's a hell of a lot more accurate with the removal of snapshotting etc). At what point are you allowed to call a stupid nerf stupid? Having done so much raid testing on the beta I've got to ask you, have you stepped foot inside one of them? Now we're on to the substance rather than response. That I have no opinion on.
That guy posts regularly on the warlock thread on mmo-champion, assuming him to be uninformed is, like many assumptions, stupid.
Since I know he's not uninformed the twitter questions are pretty reasonable, and we are back at the original question, surely there needs to be more then 2 words of a response for a 33% nerf on a class performing below average in raid testing.
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On September 14 2014 12:25 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2014 12:18 deth2munkies wrote:On September 14 2014 12:04 bo1b wrote:On September 14 2014 11:45 deth2munkies wrote:On September 14 2014 08:54 bo1b wrote:On September 14 2014 05:55 deth2munkies wrote:On September 14 2014 05:38 Serejai wrote:
Lol. What on earth are you talking about? We were discussing how Celestion, and Blizzard I'm general, has poor customer service skills and you jump in about game balance.
I also can't believe you think an acceptable, professional response to someone offering constructive criticism is to cuss them out on social media. The problem is they're fielding questions on Twitter. A lot of the actual questions require much more detailed answers to make sense and come of as condescending in 140 character bits. "It was." Can fit a bit more into it then that. First off, I've been reading pretty much everything said on Twitter, and answers that short are not common to decent questions. Second, the guy speaking had no idea what he was talking about and had no evidence, he was just raging. Third, there's going to be no satisfying answer to that question in 140 characters because you have to show a bunch of analysis and numbers to prove your point, he shouldn't have responded to the question at all because it was impossible. You need to provide evidence that demo wasn't over performing by 33% in either sims or reality? Here's the latest simcraft btw, I'm sure if you add 33% to it it'll maybe be above the middle of the pack. http://downloads.simulationcraft.org/raid-9-4-14.htmlAnd why wouldn't he rage? A class that was performing in the middle of the pack aka balanced was just nerfed to below holy priests on simcraft (yes its not perfect, but it's a hell of a lot more accurate with the removal of snapshotting etc). At what point are you allowed to call a stupid nerf stupid? Having done so much raid testing on the beta I've got to ask you, have you stepped foot inside one of them? Now we're on to the substance rather than response. That I have no opinion on. That guy posts regularly on the warlock thread on mmo-champion, assuming him to be uninformed is, like many assumptions, stupid. Since I know he's not uninformed the twitter questions are pretty reasonable, and we are back at the original question, surely there needs to be more then 2 words of a response for a 33% nerf on a class performing below average in raid testing.
Ask on the forum and you'll probably get it. I'll say it again, trying to answer balance questions on Twitter is fucking dumb.
I'll also add that as a warlock main from Vanilla -> Cata, deep Demo has never been a viable raiding spec with the exception of 1-2 fights in early Cataclysm (Maloriak springs to mind). It's typically been a PvP focused spec. The problem (it seems) in MoP is that it's not very good at PvP either. TBH, I don't care that much because I really don't like the way Demo plays for the same reason I don't really like how DPS classes in general play right now: insane amounts of snapshotting.
I'm not sad to see it go in WoD. I appreciate it, and I think that it works well for some specs (I actually kind of like the Destro playstyle of dump Chaos Bolts when your trinkets proc, but it's ruined by starting at 1 burning Ember and having the only time you'll consistently have every proc up be the very beginning), but MoP is all snapshotting all the time for every class. Having such powerful, consistent procs on trinkets is incredibly dumb and I really hope they do trinket design better in WoD.
That said, maybe WoD Demo is amazing. I doubt it, but sure, I don't know. The PTR is fucked and I'm not in the beta.
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On September 14 2014 12:36 deth2munkies wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2014 12:25 bo1b wrote:On September 14 2014 12:18 deth2munkies wrote:On September 14 2014 12:04 bo1b wrote:On September 14 2014 11:45 deth2munkies wrote:On September 14 2014 08:54 bo1b wrote:On September 14 2014 05:55 deth2munkies wrote:On September 14 2014 05:38 Serejai wrote:
Lol. What on earth are you talking about? We were discussing how Celestion, and Blizzard I'm general, has poor customer service skills and you jump in about game balance.
I also can't believe you think an acceptable, professional response to someone offering constructive criticism is to cuss them out on social media. The problem is they're fielding questions on Twitter. A lot of the actual questions require much more detailed answers to make sense and come of as condescending in 140 character bits. "It was." Can fit a bit more into it then that. First off, I've been reading pretty much everything said on Twitter, and answers that short are not common to decent questions. Second, the guy speaking had no idea what he was talking about and had no evidence, he was just raging. Third, there's going to be no satisfying answer to that question in 140 characters because you have to show a bunch of analysis and numbers to prove your point, he shouldn't have responded to the question at all because it was impossible. You need to provide evidence that demo wasn't over performing by 33% in either sims or reality? Here's the latest simcraft btw, I'm sure if you add 33% to it it'll maybe be above the middle of the pack. http://downloads.simulationcraft.org/raid-9-4-14.htmlAnd why wouldn't he rage? A class that was performing in the middle of the pack aka balanced was just nerfed to below holy priests on simcraft (yes its not perfect, but it's a hell of a lot more accurate with the removal of snapshotting etc). At what point are you allowed to call a stupid nerf stupid? Having done so much raid testing on the beta I've got to ask you, have you stepped foot inside one of them? Now we're on to the substance rather than response. That I have no opinion on. That guy posts regularly on the warlock thread on mmo-champion, assuming him to be uninformed is, like many assumptions, stupid. Since I know he's not uninformed the twitter questions are pretty reasonable, and we are back at the original question, surely there needs to be more then 2 words of a response for a 33% nerf on a class performing below average in raid testing. Ask on the forum and you'll probably get it. I'll say it again, trying to answer balance questions on Twitter is fucking dumb. I'll also add that as a warlock main from Vanilla -> Cata, deep Demo has never been a viable raiding spec with the exception of 1-2 fights in early Cataclysm (Maloriak springs to mind). It's typically been a PvP focused spec. The problem (it seems) in MoP is that it's not very good at PvP either. TBH, I don't care that much because I really don't like the way Demo plays for the same reason I don't really like how DPS classes in general play right now: insane amounts of snapshotting. I'm not sad to see it go in WoD. I appreciate it, and I think that it works well for some specs (I actually kind of like the Destro playstyle of dump Chaos Bolts when your trinkets proc, but it's ruined by starting at 1 burning Ember and having the only time you'll consistently have every proc up be the very beginning), but MoP is all snapshotting all the time for every class. Having such powerful, consistent procs on trinkets is incredibly dumb and I really hope they do trinket design better in WoD. That said, maybe WoD Demo is amazing. I doubt it, but sure, I don't know. The PTR is fucked and I'm not in the beta.
Demo has never been the pvp spec (at least post vanilla) its pretty much always been aff, with the exception of season 6 when it was arguably destro, or season 12 when you could one shot people with chaos wave.
Also, demo is less snapshot heavy then the other warlock specs by far, it's not even arguable.
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On September 14 2014 13:32 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2014 12:36 deth2munkies wrote:On September 14 2014 12:25 bo1b wrote:On September 14 2014 12:18 deth2munkies wrote:On September 14 2014 12:04 bo1b wrote:On September 14 2014 11:45 deth2munkies wrote:On September 14 2014 08:54 bo1b wrote:On September 14 2014 05:55 deth2munkies wrote:On September 14 2014 05:38 Serejai wrote:
Lol. What on earth are you talking about? We were discussing how Celestion, and Blizzard I'm general, has poor customer service skills and you jump in about game balance.
I also can't believe you think an acceptable, professional response to someone offering constructive criticism is to cuss them out on social media. The problem is they're fielding questions on Twitter. A lot of the actual questions require much more detailed answers to make sense and come of as condescending in 140 character bits. "It was." Can fit a bit more into it then that. First off, I've been reading pretty much everything said on Twitter, and answers that short are not common to decent questions. Second, the guy speaking had no idea what he was talking about and had no evidence, he was just raging. Third, there's going to be no satisfying answer to that question in 140 characters because you have to show a bunch of analysis and numbers to prove your point, he shouldn't have responded to the question at all because it was impossible. You need to provide evidence that demo wasn't over performing by 33% in either sims or reality? Here's the latest simcraft btw, I'm sure if you add 33% to it it'll maybe be above the middle of the pack. http://downloads.simulationcraft.org/raid-9-4-14.htmlAnd why wouldn't he rage? A class that was performing in the middle of the pack aka balanced was just nerfed to below holy priests on simcraft (yes its not perfect, but it's a hell of a lot more accurate with the removal of snapshotting etc). At what point are you allowed to call a stupid nerf stupid? Having done so much raid testing on the beta I've got to ask you, have you stepped foot inside one of them? Now we're on to the substance rather than response. That I have no opinion on. That guy posts regularly on the warlock thread on mmo-champion, assuming him to be uninformed is, like many assumptions, stupid. Since I know he's not uninformed the twitter questions are pretty reasonable, and we are back at the original question, surely there needs to be more then 2 words of a response for a 33% nerf on a class performing below average in raid testing. Ask on the forum and you'll probably get it. I'll say it again, trying to answer balance questions on Twitter is fucking dumb. I'll also add that as a warlock main from Vanilla -> Cata, deep Demo has never been a viable raiding spec with the exception of 1-2 fights in early Cataclysm (Maloriak springs to mind). It's typically been a PvP focused spec. The problem (it seems) in MoP is that it's not very good at PvP either. TBH, I don't care that much because I really don't like the way Demo plays for the same reason I don't really like how DPS classes in general play right now: insane amounts of snapshotting. I'm not sad to see it go in WoD. I appreciate it, and I think that it works well for some specs (I actually kind of like the Destro playstyle of dump Chaos Bolts when your trinkets proc, but it's ruined by starting at 1 burning Ember and having the only time you'll consistently have every proc up be the very beginning), but MoP is all snapshotting all the time for every class. Having such powerful, consistent procs on trinkets is incredibly dumb and I really hope they do trinket design better in WoD. That said, maybe WoD Demo is amazing. I doubt it, but sure, I don't know. The PTR is fucked and I'm not in the beta. Demo has never been the pvp spec (at least post vanilla) its pretty much always been aff, with the exception of season 6 when it was arguably destro, or season 12 when you could one shot people with chaos wave. Also, demo is less snapshot heavy then the other warlock specs by far, it's not even arguable.
It's not that there's MORE snapshotting, it's the way the snapshotting is done. Demo basically combines what I hate about warlocks (heavy focus on snapshotting compared to other classes) and what I hate about Moonkin (having to manage a fucking alternate bar, being proc dependent, and praying your trinkets proc at a time when you can take advantage of them) to make one big storm of suck.
It's a spec that they really need to go back to the drawing board on, hard.
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On September 14 2014 14:04 deth2munkies wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2014 13:32 bo1b wrote:On September 14 2014 12:36 deth2munkies wrote:On September 14 2014 12:25 bo1b wrote:On September 14 2014 12:18 deth2munkies wrote:On September 14 2014 12:04 bo1b wrote:On September 14 2014 11:45 deth2munkies wrote:On September 14 2014 08:54 bo1b wrote:On September 14 2014 05:55 deth2munkies wrote:On September 14 2014 05:38 Serejai wrote:
Lol. What on earth are you talking about? We were discussing how Celestion, and Blizzard I'm general, has poor customer service skills and you jump in about game balance.
I also can't believe you think an acceptable, professional response to someone offering constructive criticism is to cuss them out on social media. The problem is they're fielding questions on Twitter. A lot of the actual questions require much more detailed answers to make sense and come of as condescending in 140 character bits. "It was." Can fit a bit more into it then that. First off, I've been reading pretty much everything said on Twitter, and answers that short are not common to decent questions. Second, the guy speaking had no idea what he was talking about and had no evidence, he was just raging. Third, there's going to be no satisfying answer to that question in 140 characters because you have to show a bunch of analysis and numbers to prove your point, he shouldn't have responded to the question at all because it was impossible. You need to provide evidence that demo wasn't over performing by 33% in either sims or reality? Here's the latest simcraft btw, I'm sure if you add 33% to it it'll maybe be above the middle of the pack. http://downloads.simulationcraft.org/raid-9-4-14.htmlAnd why wouldn't he rage? A class that was performing in the middle of the pack aka balanced was just nerfed to below holy priests on simcraft (yes its not perfect, but it's a hell of a lot more accurate with the removal of snapshotting etc). At what point are you allowed to call a stupid nerf stupid? Having done so much raid testing on the beta I've got to ask you, have you stepped foot inside one of them? Now we're on to the substance rather than response. That I have no opinion on. That guy posts regularly on the warlock thread on mmo-champion, assuming him to be uninformed is, like many assumptions, stupid. Since I know he's not uninformed the twitter questions are pretty reasonable, and we are back at the original question, surely there needs to be more then 2 words of a response for a 33% nerf on a class performing below average in raid testing. Ask on the forum and you'll probably get it. I'll say it again, trying to answer balance questions on Twitter is fucking dumb. I'll also add that as a warlock main from Vanilla -> Cata, deep Demo has never been a viable raiding spec with the exception of 1-2 fights in early Cataclysm (Maloriak springs to mind). It's typically been a PvP focused spec. The problem (it seems) in MoP is that it's not very good at PvP either. TBH, I don't care that much because I really don't like the way Demo plays for the same reason I don't really like how DPS classes in general play right now: insane amounts of snapshotting. I'm not sad to see it go in WoD. I appreciate it, and I think that it works well for some specs (I actually kind of like the Destro playstyle of dump Chaos Bolts when your trinkets proc, but it's ruined by starting at 1 burning Ember and having the only time you'll consistently have every proc up be the very beginning), but MoP is all snapshotting all the time for every class. Having such powerful, consistent procs on trinkets is incredibly dumb and I really hope they do trinket design better in WoD. That said, maybe WoD Demo is amazing. I doubt it, but sure, I don't know. The PTR is fucked and I'm not in the beta. Demo has never been the pvp spec (at least post vanilla) its pretty much always been aff, with the exception of season 6 when it was arguably destro, or season 12 when you could one shot people with chaos wave. Also, demo is less snapshot heavy then the other warlock specs by far, it's not even arguable. It's not that there's MORE snapshotting, it's the way the snapshotting is done. Demo basically combines what I hate about warlocks (heavy focus on snapshotting compared to other classes) and what I hate about Moonkin (having to manage a fucking alternate bar, being proc dependent, and praying your trinkets proc at a time when you can take advantage of them) to make one big storm of suck. It's a spec that they really need to go back to the drawing board on, hard.
But it's not heavy on snapshotting at all. The one spell you actually can snap shot is up for one minute, so really, who gives a shit.
Just out of interest, what do you think is a well designed spec? It's clearly not something we're actual thought is required cause you dislike boomkin and demo, so what is it? Frost?
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On September 14 2014 14:49 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2014 14:04 deth2munkies wrote:On September 14 2014 13:32 bo1b wrote:On September 14 2014 12:36 deth2munkies wrote:On September 14 2014 12:25 bo1b wrote:On September 14 2014 12:18 deth2munkies wrote:On September 14 2014 12:04 bo1b wrote:On September 14 2014 11:45 deth2munkies wrote:On September 14 2014 08:54 bo1b wrote:On September 14 2014 05:55 deth2munkies wrote:
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The problem is they're fielding questions on Twitter. A lot of the actual questions require much more detailed answers to make sense and come of as condescending in 140 character bits. "It was." Can fit a bit more into it then that. First off, I've been reading pretty much everything said on Twitter, and answers that short are not common to decent questions. Second, the guy speaking had no idea what he was talking about and had no evidence, he was just raging. Third, there's going to be no satisfying answer to that question in 140 characters because you have to show a bunch of analysis and numbers to prove your point, he shouldn't have responded to the question at all because it was impossible. You need to provide evidence that demo wasn't over performing by 33% in either sims or reality? Here's the latest simcraft btw, I'm sure if you add 33% to it it'll maybe be above the middle of the pack. http://downloads.simulationcraft.org/raid-9-4-14.htmlAnd why wouldn't he rage? A class that was performing in the middle of the pack aka balanced was just nerfed to below holy priests on simcraft (yes its not perfect, but it's a hell of a lot more accurate with the removal of snapshotting etc). At what point are you allowed to call a stupid nerf stupid? Having done so much raid testing on the beta I've got to ask you, have you stepped foot inside one of them? Now we're on to the substance rather than response. That I have no opinion on. That guy posts regularly on the warlock thread on mmo-champion, assuming him to be uninformed is, like many assumptions, stupid. Since I know he's not uninformed the twitter questions are pretty reasonable, and we are back at the original question, surely there needs to be more then 2 words of a response for a 33% nerf on a class performing below average in raid testing. Ask on the forum and you'll probably get it. I'll say it again, trying to answer balance questions on Twitter is fucking dumb. I'll also add that as a warlock main from Vanilla -> Cata, deep Demo has never been a viable raiding spec with the exception of 1-2 fights in early Cataclysm (Maloriak springs to mind). It's typically been a PvP focused spec. The problem (it seems) in MoP is that it's not very good at PvP either. TBH, I don't care that much because I really don't like the way Demo plays for the same reason I don't really like how DPS classes in general play right now: insane amounts of snapshotting. I'm not sad to see it go in WoD. I appreciate it, and I think that it works well for some specs (I actually kind of like the Destro playstyle of dump Chaos Bolts when your trinkets proc, but it's ruined by starting at 1 burning Ember and having the only time you'll consistently have every proc up be the very beginning), but MoP is all snapshotting all the time for every class. Having such powerful, consistent procs on trinkets is incredibly dumb and I really hope they do trinket design better in WoD. That said, maybe WoD Demo is amazing. I doubt it, but sure, I don't know. The PTR is fucked and I'm not in the beta. Demo has never been the pvp spec (at least post vanilla) its pretty much always been aff, with the exception of season 6 when it was arguably destro, or season 12 when you could one shot people with chaos wave. Also, demo is less snapshot heavy then the other warlock specs by far, it's not even arguable. It's not that there's MORE snapshotting, it's the way the snapshotting is done. Demo basically combines what I hate about warlocks (heavy focus on snapshotting compared to other classes) and what I hate about Moonkin (having to manage a fucking alternate bar, being proc dependent, and praying your trinkets proc at a time when you can take advantage of them) to make one big storm of suck. It's a spec that they really need to go back to the drawing board on, hard. But it's not heavy on snapshotting at all. The one spell you actually can snap shot is up for one minute, so really, who gives a shit. Just out of interest, what do you think is a well designed spec? It's clearly not something we're actual thought is required cause you dislike boomkin and demo, so what is it? Frost?
Those don't require much more thought than the average spec, they're just crippled by bad luck and aren't anywhere near as adaptable as other specs to changing fight conditions and heavy movement.
Probably my favorite spec was BC and maybe even Wrath Affliction. Since most trinkets were activated, snapshotting was much more simple, and without Soul Swap, you actually had to stay on top of DoT rotations, and with enough practice it became muscle memory. The best skill you could have was not clipping the last tick of your DoTs by refreshing them exactly after the last tick happened. Wrath I think was when DoTs changed to make DoT clipping not a thing anymore, but it added Haunt which added some more depth to the rotation (though not much).
The point is, I'd rather DPS on my terms than have to wait for procs to determine what I do. I'm willing to put up with a much more complex and demanding rotation if I can be in complete control of it.
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On September 14 2014 15:35 deth2munkies wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2014 14:49 bo1b wrote:On September 14 2014 14:04 deth2munkies wrote:On September 14 2014 13:32 bo1b wrote:On September 14 2014 12:36 deth2munkies wrote:On September 14 2014 12:25 bo1b wrote:On September 14 2014 12:18 deth2munkies wrote:On September 14 2014 12:04 bo1b wrote:On September 14 2014 11:45 deth2munkies wrote:On September 14 2014 08:54 bo1b wrote:
[quote]
"It was."
Can fit a bit more into it then that. First off, I've been reading pretty much everything said on Twitter, and answers that short are not common to decent questions. Second, the guy speaking had no idea what he was talking about and had no evidence, he was just raging. Third, there's going to be no satisfying answer to that question in 140 characters because you have to show a bunch of analysis and numbers to prove your point, he shouldn't have responded to the question at all because it was impossible. You need to provide evidence that demo wasn't over performing by 33% in either sims or reality? Here's the latest simcraft btw, I'm sure if you add 33% to it it'll maybe be above the middle of the pack. http://downloads.simulationcraft.org/raid-9-4-14.htmlAnd why wouldn't he rage? A class that was performing in the middle of the pack aka balanced was just nerfed to below holy priests on simcraft (yes its not perfect, but it's a hell of a lot more accurate with the removal of snapshotting etc). At what point are you allowed to call a stupid nerf stupid? Having done so much raid testing on the beta I've got to ask you, have you stepped foot inside one of them? Now we're on to the substance rather than response. That I have no opinion on. That guy posts regularly on the warlock thread on mmo-champion, assuming him to be uninformed is, like many assumptions, stupid. Since I know he's not uninformed the twitter questions are pretty reasonable, and we are back at the original question, surely there needs to be more then 2 words of a response for a 33% nerf on a class performing below average in raid testing. Ask on the forum and you'll probably get it. I'll say it again, trying to answer balance questions on Twitter is fucking dumb. I'll also add that as a warlock main from Vanilla -> Cata, deep Demo has never been a viable raiding spec with the exception of 1-2 fights in early Cataclysm (Maloriak springs to mind). It's typically been a PvP focused spec. The problem (it seems) in MoP is that it's not very good at PvP either. TBH, I don't care that much because I really don't like the way Demo plays for the same reason I don't really like how DPS classes in general play right now: insane amounts of snapshotting. I'm not sad to see it go in WoD. I appreciate it, and I think that it works well for some specs (I actually kind of like the Destro playstyle of dump Chaos Bolts when your trinkets proc, but it's ruined by starting at 1 burning Ember and having the only time you'll consistently have every proc up be the very beginning), but MoP is all snapshotting all the time for every class. Having such powerful, consistent procs on trinkets is incredibly dumb and I really hope they do trinket design better in WoD. That said, maybe WoD Demo is amazing. I doubt it, but sure, I don't know. The PTR is fucked and I'm not in the beta. Demo has never been the pvp spec (at least post vanilla) its pretty much always been aff, with the exception of season 6 when it was arguably destro, or season 12 when you could one shot people with chaos wave. Also, demo is less snapshot heavy then the other warlock specs by far, it's not even arguable. It's not that there's MORE snapshotting, it's the way the snapshotting is done. Demo basically combines what I hate about warlocks (heavy focus on snapshotting compared to other classes) and what I hate about Moonkin (having to manage a fucking alternate bar, being proc dependent, and praying your trinkets proc at a time when you can take advantage of them) to make one big storm of suck. It's a spec that they really need to go back to the drawing board on, hard. But it's not heavy on snapshotting at all. The one spell you actually can snap shot is up for one minute, so really, who gives a shit. Just out of interest, what do you think is a well designed spec? It's clearly not something we're actual thought is required cause you dislike boomkin and demo, so what is it? Frost? Those don't require much more thought than the average spec, they're just crippled by bad luck and aren't anywhere near as adaptable as other specs to changing fight conditions and heavy movement. Probably my favorite spec was BC and maybe even Wrath Affliction. Since most trinkets were activated, snapshotting was much more simple, and without Soul Swap, you actually had to stay on top of DoT rotations, and with enough practice it became muscle memory. The best skill you could have was not clipping the last tick of your DoTs by refreshing them exactly after the last tick happened. Wrath I think was when DoTs changed to make DoT clipping not a thing anymore, but it added Haunt which added some more depth to the rotation (though not much). The point is, I'd rather DPS on my terms than have to wait for procs to determine what I do. I'm willing to put up with a much more complex and demanding rotation if I can be in complete control of it.
I'd give a lot to have aff go back to wrath style, and idk when you last played demo but the snapshotting is incredibly simple, you install aff dots, wait for the number to become larger, and then recast doom.
Here's the thing, out of all the dps rotations I've played, which is all of them to >90% on warcraftlogs for ranged classes (except aff on a few fights) and a few melee, demo is (not including hunters) the best at adapting to movement, the least luck dependant, the least proc dependant, and far and away the most customisable in how you play. Right down to the rotation being within 5% of your dps if you choose to use touch of chaos instead of soulfire in meta, choose to use wrathguard instead of grimoire of service, choose to never cast shadow bolt etc.
I actually cant think of a single one which is more modular.
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EPT
