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On September 30 2012 19:57 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 19:16 Brett wrote:On September 30 2012 17:14 Azuzu wrote:On September 30 2012 17:01 Brett wrote:On September 28 2012 02:06 Azuzu wrote:On September 27 2012 22:09 Brett wrote:Oh and just as an aside, whoever it was that made a comment about naxx 1.0, specifically Sapph, requiring world buffs... Sorry friend, your DPS just sucked balls  . Both my guild and the other top guild on my server back then NEVER world buffed. It's just the truth that there were LOTS of bad players being carried by good players back then, apparently it was your dps that sucked ;( It's about min maxing and giving the highest chance of success for each pull. It's not like you can world buff every pull, but after practicing the mechanics for a while, the buffs were sometimes just enough to push you over. So you don't *have* to world buff, but for those interested in playing optimally- you do. When you can down the boss without world buffs for your first kill, and then go on to one shot the fights consistently, and thus save yourself the hour of GETTING the buffs, it's suddenly suboptimal to do so. The point is that if you only gear up at a certain pace, there's no reason to wait for multiple weeks for more gear when there are world buffs. I would happily take the first kill a couple weeks sooner, get the new gear, and use that for kills where world buffs aren't necessary. Hence, optimal, and why nearly every top guild (at least on my server) did it. You had more than enough gear, assuming you got into Naxx early, and farmed gear for tanks for 4H, to roll Sapph without any world buffs. Most guilds just carried bad players. Players who couldn't dps properly. That's the point I was making. If you were needing weeks of gear to make those kills without the ONE attempt the world buffs brought, your DPS was even worse than I suspect. Bottom line: Someone said those fights required world buffs. They did not. At all. It's not about whether or not you "need" world buffs, in the sense that you cannot kill the boss without the buff. It's about whether or not it would improve your chance if you had world buffs. If you're doing progression raiding, as opposed to having the boss on farm, then you are obligated to stack every possible little advantage you can get. This is why people always choose the most optimal spec, even over other specs that does 2% less DPS which they personally enjoy more.
No shit it improves your chances. Requiring however, is the wrong word. That is all I ever said.
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On September 30 2012 20:06 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 19:57 paralleluniverse wrote:On September 30 2012 19:16 Brett wrote:On September 30 2012 17:14 Azuzu wrote:On September 30 2012 17:01 Brett wrote:On September 28 2012 02:06 Azuzu wrote:On September 27 2012 22:09 Brett wrote:Oh and just as an aside, whoever it was that made a comment about naxx 1.0, specifically Sapph, requiring world buffs... Sorry friend, your DPS just sucked balls . Both my guild and the other top guild on my server back then NEVER world buffed. It's just the truth that there were LOTS of bad players being carried by good players back then, apparently it was your dps that sucked ;( It's about min maxing and giving the highest chance of success for each pull. It's not like you can world buff every pull, but after practicing the mechanics for a while, the buffs were sometimes just enough to push you over. So you don't *have* to world buff, but for those interested in playing optimally- you do. When you can down the boss without world buffs for your first kill, and then go on to one shot the fights consistently, and thus save yourself the hour of GETTING the buffs, it's suddenly suboptimal to do so. The point is that if you only gear up at a certain pace, there's no reason to wait for multiple weeks for more gear when there are world buffs. I would happily take the first kill a couple weeks sooner, get the new gear, and use that for kills where world buffs aren't necessary. Hence, optimal, and why nearly every top guild (at least on my server) did it. You had more than enough gear, assuming you got into Naxx early, and farmed gear for tanks for 4H, to roll Sapph without any world buffs. Most guilds just carried bad players. Players who couldn't dps properly. That's the point I was making. If you were needing weeks of gear to make those kills without the ONE attempt the world buffs brought, your DPS was even worse than I suspect. Bottom line: Someone said those fights required world buffs. They did not. At all. It's not about whether or not you "need" world buffs, in the sense that you cannot kill the boss without the buff. It's about whether or not it would improve your chance if you had world buffs. If you're doing progression raiding, as opposed to having the boss on farm, then you are obligated to stack every possible little advantage you can get. This is why people always choose the most optimal spec, even over other specs that does 2% less DPS which they personally enjoy more. People stacking world buffs was a common thing in Classic WoW. World buffs and potions, shitloads of them plus flasks.
Plus whipper root tubers, night dragon's breath, winterfall buffs, etc etc. Of course doing all this shit helped... This is not the point I was making.
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Australia7069 Posts
tuber farming was awesome
i used to own felwood. farm waters and get tubers on cd. easy
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lol I remember raiding Naxx. We gave people negative DKP that died during the shadow potion boss. I forgot the boss name, but the healers could only heal the MT so DPS had to bandage themselves + use shadow pots.
I remember one of our rogues was a dumbass and didn't farm shadow pots so he died mid fight. He lost DKP that night.
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On September 29 2012 18:44 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 18:35 Canas wrote:
Didn't magtheridon get nerfed pretty early though? Only like 4 guilds or so killed it before it got nerfed, then the fight really wasn't that hard?
Same thing with hydross, he was fucking bullshit before he got nerfed, but he still got nerfed before most guilds had even entered serpentshrine. Loot reaver was never hard. Nobody killed Magtheridon before the first nerf, I'm pretty sure. After that nerf, when the first kill happened, 15 of your 25 raid members had to be organized into three rotating groups of 5 to use the cubes to stop his wipe-the-raid ability. By that point, many guilds were skipping Mag and going straight into SSC. The second nerf, a year or so later, allowed you to have only 5 people on the cubes, at which point the fight became pretty straightforward. The guild I started and ran in Vanilla only barely had the people to run two Karazhan teams, so we were very late getting into 25-man anything. In the long run, that was a huge mistake, but we were on a fairly low-pop server so it didn't feel too out of whack with what our peers were doing. We ended up clearing SSC and TK very late, except for Vashj and KT, which I ended up doing with my new guild after I had left them. Late BC, that guild had an upheaval and I ended up in a decent guild on Cenarius (called Poseidon) that was a few bosses into BT at the time, which allowed me to see a lot more content through BT, Sunwell, and Wrath than I would have otherwise. (Interestingly, Poseidon had been the casual half of the Everquest guild Triton, which split into them and a more serious Cenarius guild called Afterlife. Afterlife was led by Thott, who started the Thottbot website. It was certainly something getting to know all those old-time Everquest guys.) [ We didn't get into Sunwell until right after the 30% nerf dropped with the pre-Wrath patch, so in a way none of it counted. However, we did manage to clear the entire place in about five weeks, ultimately getting a KJ kill the night before Wrath released. That was probably my high point in WoW, all things considered, even with the nerf. ] Poseidon wound up a casualty of the 10/25 raiding equivalence in Cataclysm, unfortunately. Having two teams of 10 made people crazy, and we could never quite recruit the last 5 to run things in a group of 25 consistently, so a few bosses into T11 the guild fell apart, at which point I quit WoW. I'm now back to leveling with my character that's still in Poseidon, but no plans to raid.  Edit: Yeah this post is all guild-related trivia, but anyone who's been raiding in WoW a while knows those kinds of stories are all that really stick in the long run!
I think what turned me off to Wrath the most was the 10/25 gear split. My comp lagged slightly on 25mans(enough to piss me off) and no one did 10mans cause the loot was worse. was annoying as fuck
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On October 01 2012 01:51 Silentness wrote:
lol I remember raiding Naxx. We gave people negative DKP that died during the shadow potion boss. I forgot the boss name, but the healers could only heal the MT so DPS had to bandage themselves + use shadow pots.
I remember one of our rogues was a dumbass and didn't farm shadow pots so he died mid fight. He lost DKP that night.
Loatheb. And I, as well as most ppl I talked to loved the way you could buff your char with tons of stuff, you basically doubled your power just with all those buffs. Yes it was time consuming etc. But it set ppl that were serious about raiding apart from all the others. Nowdays you barely have any of these little 'perfectionist' things you can do (blasted Lands buff, anyone?) to perform better. High-end raiding has basically been reduced to 'wipe until the boss dies'.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
i don't play wow but i just want to comment on the panda theme. are pandas actually interesting to anyone?
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On October 01 2012 02:18 oneofthem wrote:
i don't play wow but i just want to comment on the panda theme. are pandas actually interesting to anyone? Yes.
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On October 01 2012 02:04 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2012 01:51 Silentness wrote:
lol I remember raiding Naxx. We gave people negative DKP that died during the shadow potion boss. I forgot the boss name, but the healers could only heal the MT so DPS had to bandage themselves + use shadow pots.
I remember one of our rogues was a dumbass and didn't farm shadow pots so he died mid fight. He lost DKP that night. Loatheb. And I, as well as most ppl I talked to loved the way you could buff your char with tons of stuff, you basically doubled your power just with all those buffs. Yes it was time consuming etc. But it set ppl that were serious about raiding apart from all the others. Nowdays you barely have any of these little 'perfectionist' things you can do (blasted Lands buff, anyone?) to perform better. High-end raiding has basically been reduced to 'wipe until the boss dies'.
seriously? you complain about not having to invest you WHOLE life into hardcore raiding? the buff thing was only annoying. And a really good way to differentiate from people who are just less serious is skill. And there are still perfectionist things you can change. I know some people that are really into simcraft and subtle gear/reforge/rotation/cd changes but those are the people who do most dps. So if you want to invest time to raid better there is a way, it's just not mindless grinding anymore 
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On September 30 2012 20:26 Brett wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 19:57 paralleluniverse wrote:On September 30 2012 19:16 Brett wrote:On September 30 2012 17:14 Azuzu wrote:On September 30 2012 17:01 Brett wrote:On September 28 2012 02:06 Azuzu wrote:On September 27 2012 22:09 Brett wrote:Oh and just as an aside, whoever it was that made a comment about naxx 1.0, specifically Sapph, requiring world buffs... Sorry friend, your DPS just sucked balls . Both my guild and the other top guild on my server back then NEVER world buffed. It's just the truth that there were LOTS of bad players being carried by good players back then, apparently it was your dps that sucked ;( It's about min maxing and giving the highest chance of success for each pull. It's not like you can world buff every pull, but after practicing the mechanics for a while, the buffs were sometimes just enough to push you over. So you don't *have* to world buff, but for those interested in playing optimally- you do. When you can down the boss without world buffs for your first kill, and then go on to one shot the fights consistently, and thus save yourself the hour of GETTING the buffs, it's suddenly suboptimal to do so. The point is that if you only gear up at a certain pace, there's no reason to wait for multiple weeks for more gear when there are world buffs. I would happily take the first kill a couple weeks sooner, get the new gear, and use that for kills where world buffs aren't necessary. Hence, optimal, and why nearly every top guild (at least on my server) did it. You had more than enough gear, assuming you got into Naxx early, and farmed gear for tanks for 4H, to roll Sapph without any world buffs. Most guilds just carried bad players. Players who couldn't dps properly. That's the point I was making. If you were needing weeks of gear to make those kills without the ONE attempt the world buffs brought, your DPS was even worse than I suspect. Bottom line: Someone said those fights required world buffs. They did not. At all. It's not about whether or not you "need" world buffs, in the sense that you cannot kill the boss without the buff. It's about whether or not it would improve your chance if you had world buffs. If you're doing progression raiding, as opposed to having the boss on farm, then you are obligated to stack every possible little advantage you can get. This is why people always choose the most optimal spec, even over other specs that does 2% less DPS which they personally enjoy more. No shit it improves your chances. Requiring however, is the wrong word. That is all I ever said.
You also said it wasn't optimal. Regardless... you're still not understanding min maxing if you think requiring is the wrong word. If your goal is server/faction/nationality/world ranking, you will be required to do these things because your opponents sure will be. When you're min maxing, "required" is not the bare minimum you can you can get away with.
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Guys, there has never been a raid released in the history of WoW where tight min-maxing was what set you apart. It's all about finding people who aren't mouth breathers to play with you and then just following the fight mechanics. Seriously. I used to play with a guild where there were 3 other rogues than myself, and while not using flasks, being a full two tiers below them in gear, and avoiding death while focusing key targets, I topped their DPS by a few thousand. This was during Icecrown Citadel raiding, and honestly... it all comes down to whether or not you know what you're doing.
Optimal has nothing to do with it beyond gear checks for tanks, and healer gear is a function of DPS gear after the minimum required for a raid (acquirable by running 5 mans unless it's super new content, in which case you should have the previous content's raid gear, at least in parts).
But buffing yourself is fun, so there's that.
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I never understood the term "mouth breathers".
Doesn't that imply heavy physical activities? How does that make for a bad player?
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On October 01 2012 02:18 oneofthem wrote:
i don't play wow but i just want to comment on the panda theme. are pandas actually interesting to anyone?
The Asian inspired theme in Mists of Pandaria, Pandarians included is one of the strongest aspects of this expansion so far imo.
I think most people that jumped on the "wtf pandas" bandwagon immediately jumped off of it once they started playing.
Once you get over the initial shock of what they are you'll find they fit in just as well as the other races do, and the awesome lore surrounding them and their quests just makes them all the more intriguing.
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Mouth breathers refers to people drooling all over the keyboard while playing. So it implies they're not very good, *shrug*
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On October 01 2012 03:32 Azuzu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 20:26 Brett wrote:On September 30 2012 19:57 paralleluniverse wrote:On September 30 2012 19:16 Brett wrote:On September 30 2012 17:14 Azuzu wrote:On September 30 2012 17:01 Brett wrote:On September 28 2012 02:06 Azuzu wrote:On September 27 2012 22:09 Brett wrote:Oh and just as an aside, whoever it was that made a comment about naxx 1.0, specifically Sapph, requiring world buffs... Sorry friend, your DPS just sucked balls . Both my guild and the other top guild on my server back then NEVER world buffed. It's just the truth that there were LOTS of bad players being carried by good players back then, apparently it was your dps that sucked ;( It's about min maxing and giving the highest chance of success for each pull. It's not like you can world buff every pull, but after practicing the mechanics for a while, the buffs were sometimes just enough to push you over. So you don't *have* to world buff, but for those interested in playing optimally- you do. When you can down the boss without world buffs for your first kill, and then go on to one shot the fights consistently, and thus save yourself the hour of GETTING the buffs, it's suddenly suboptimal to do so. The point is that if you only gear up at a certain pace, there's no reason to wait for multiple weeks for more gear when there are world buffs. I would happily take the first kill a couple weeks sooner, get the new gear, and use that for kills where world buffs aren't necessary. Hence, optimal, and why nearly every top guild (at least on my server) did it. You had more than enough gear, assuming you got into Naxx early, and farmed gear for tanks for 4H, to roll Sapph without any world buffs. Most guilds just carried bad players. Players who couldn't dps properly. That's the point I was making. If you were needing weeks of gear to make those kills without the ONE attempt the world buffs brought, your DPS was even worse than I suspect. Bottom line: Someone said those fights required world buffs. They did not. At all. It's not about whether or not you "need" world buffs, in the sense that you cannot kill the boss without the buff. It's about whether or not it would improve your chance if you had world buffs. If you're doing progression raiding, as opposed to having the boss on farm, then you are obligated to stack every possible little advantage you can get. This is why people always choose the most optimal spec, even over other specs that does 2% less DPS which they personally enjoy more. No shit it improves your chances. Requiring however, is the wrong word. That is all I ever said. You also said it wasn't optimal. Regardless... you're still not understanding min maxing if you think requiring is the wrong word. If your goal is server/faction/nationality/world ranking, you will be required to do these things because your opponents sure will be. When you're min maxing, "required" is not the bare minimum you can you can get away with.
My original comment was never about min-maxing. It was about a comment made that fights like sapph and loatheb required world buffs. That is false. And frankly, I dont think it was optimal from a time perspective to farm those buffs anyway. If you were close enough to a kill to get to the point where you'd consider spending the time to go get a hakar/rallying cry of dragonslayer buff you could have 5 to 10 more pulls on those bosses in the same amount of time, and if your dps didn't suck you probably kill the boss in those extra pulls anyway. Let's not forget, if you wiped, that time was completely wasted and you have to pull again without the buffs.
The world buffs were relevant to top 5-10 world guilds at most, as they were pulling bosses considerably earlier in the zone's life with much less gear. Everyone else was separated by weeks, possibly months, and had more than enough gear to tackle the bosses without the buffs. The server first horde guild on my server got US 7th. They never world buffed. My alliance guild killed KT about 3 weeks later, US ~15-20. Again, no world buff ever used.
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Looking for a nice pve server with maybe a guild with some tl on it. Im now on Haomarush because there was a TL eu guild on there.. but its very empty right now. Someone has a suggestion?
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On October 01 2012 03:22 RolleMcKnolle wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2012 02:04 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:On October 01 2012 01:51 Silentness wrote:
lol I remember raiding Naxx. We gave people negative DKP that died during the shadow potion boss. I forgot the boss name, but the healers could only heal the MT so DPS had to bandage themselves + use shadow pots.
I remember one of our rogues was a dumbass and didn't farm shadow pots so he died mid fight. He lost DKP that night. Loatheb. And I, as well as most ppl I talked to loved the way you could buff your char with tons of stuff, you basically doubled your power just with all those buffs. Yes it was time consuming etc. But it set ppl that were serious about raiding apart from all the others. Nowdays you barely have any of these little 'perfectionist' things you can do (blasted Lands buff, anyone?) to perform better. High-end raiding has basically been reduced to 'wipe until the boss dies'. seriously? you complain about not having to invest you WHOLE life into hardcore raiding? the buff thing was only annoying. And a really good way to differentiate from people who are just less serious is skill. And there are still perfectionist things you can change. I know some people that are really into simcraft and subtle gear/reforge/rotation/cd changes but those are the people who do most dps. So if you want to invest time to raid better there is a way, it's just not mindless grinding anymore
I'm sorry but you don't get it at all. Actually exactly the opposite of what you are saying is true. The video linked a few pages back says it really well. It's not stuff you HAD to do, it's what you COULD do. The game gave you tons of tons of possibilities and it was up to you what to make of them. You could be creative and think outside the box, do stuff to kill bosses that noone had used before. Some worked, some didn't of course. But since wotlk what you do when you raid is pop "your" flask and "your" potion every two minutes and try and try the boss until it dies. Blizzard kept simplifying things and removing features and possibilities to where we are at now. Killing bosses is the real grind now. I'm not saying everyone can do it and certainly not everyone can do it given a certain ammount of tries. So there still is strategy and "skill" involved, although i'd rather call it brains. Because the skill-ceiling in wow pve is a lot lower than you think it is. The high-end guilds these days get first kills because they are the ones playing the game the most, not because they are that much better than everyone else.
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On September 30 2012 01:44 Irre wrote:
Class Homogenization, Even more Theme Park centric content design, entitlement to ride everything in said theme park, and the focus on getting through a ride in a very short time to match other games that are not MMOs in allowing people to get things done by logging on for an hour or 2 every day vs a traditional MMO. Also being 7 years old or however old WoW is now. The game changed, its barely recognizable from its original form and BC. Some people enjoy it still, others are too addicted to even try quitting, and others don't want to move on for various reasons despite not really enjoying it. The guy who said its not even worth comparing the expansions after BC was probably right.
The only thing that kind of bothers me is other companies like Trion and a few others have made great games and are trying to move things forward a little bit but people are just immovable and will never leave WoW just because of investment in the game on a lot of levels despite the content being embarrassingly shallow and boring at times. Blizzard BARELY gives a shit past their launches anymore ( see what they did to Cata like 2 weeks after launch), they take ages to release patches and content, but they really don't get punished enough for it. They should be in for a wakeup call though soon based on the numbers for MoP so far, and the wide opinion that D3 hasn't done very well past launch. One can only hope..because I don't want to see HotS and LotV suffer a similar decline!
I bought the game and started playing again. It's been about 3 years since I played seriously. I played Cata for 2 weeks, and WOTLK for about half the expansion. In BC I was in a top US raiding guild and loved the game, but unfortunately missed out on a lot of the end game content. WoW is a much improved game in some aspects. The questing and leveling is so much more fluid and easier to go through. I hardly recognized the old world anymore, and it was actually a very welcome surprise. I am currently a level 19 night elf monk.
With that being said, I think what killed WoW for me in the first place was simply that I had "done it all". In BC I literally did every quest, killed every boss, and did everything you could. I leveled almost every class to level 70 at that time, including 2 priests which I fully geared in T6 as dual specs didn't exist back then.
The game is fun again now, mostly because I don't take it too serious and I am able to take things at my own pace. It's still not the same as it once was though. I think what made Vanilla WoW so awesome was that everything was new. The grind was all new. Professions were all new. It was a really innovative game. BC basically perfected raiding in terms of the box that Vanilla WoW opperated in. To be honest, I never found hard modes that fun. I liked the way they designed BC so that the content was slowly nerfed over time to allow more and more people to experience it. I think that was the ideal model, rather than hard modes.
I digress though. The biggest problem is simply WoW's age. The game remains relatively the same in its core aspects as it was at Vanilla launch. The innovation is gone, and within the scope of WoW it will be hard to bring it back without ruining the game itself. Perhaps there will be a WoW2. Until then, they keep improving the core that is already there. It's a really well refined game, but that is just it, I have played it for so long it's not as interesting as it was.
I pretty much gave almost a year of my time to that game, and it was awesome. I doubt I will ever enjoy a game that much again.
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I believe infinity is right on many parts, i remember when i rerolled a char on a new server and that was basically months after content and we wanted to start raiding asap we rellied on getting all those buffs, for example ubrs or lbrs (dont remember which one) fire res buff, world buffs etc. I believe most top guilds when they were rushing through content also rellied on those. Part of strategy, reasearch after all.
What required most skill in PvE? Definitely leading the raid and managing the guild, pve itself for each player was simple tunnel vision and i played some time with good pve oriented people and they were no exceptional players to say the least, but they were dedicated to the task and listened. And the more people who listened good raid leader the higher the chance to success was.
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EPT
