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On October 01 2012 16:55 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:
The high-end guilds these days get first kills because they are the ones playing the game the most, not because they are that much better than everyone else.
That's always been the case, to a degree. The rest (even today) is that high-end guilds have no tolerance for the people who would be the bottom third of a typical raiding guild, because those people are the ones who slow you down.
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On October 01 2012 03:58 CapnAmerica wrote:
Guys, there has never been a raid released in the history of WoW where tight min-maxing was what set you apart. It's all about finding people who aren't mouth breathers to play with you and then just following the fight mechanics. Seriously. I used to play with a guild where there were 3 other rogues than myself, and while not using flasks, being a full two tiers below them in gear, and avoiding death while focusing key targets, I topped their DPS by a few thousand. This was during Icecrown Citadel raiding, and honestly... it all comes down to whether or not you know what you're doing.
Optimal has nothing to do with it beyond gear checks for tanks, and healer gear is a function of DPS gear after the minimum required for a raid (acquirable by running 5 mans unless it's super new content, in which case you should have the previous content's raid gear, at least in parts).
But buffing yourself is fun, so there's that.
You're right, there was no requirement in WotLK raiding (and beyond) other than not being a total idiot. You got enough gear from doing the heroics/badges that you were only 1 tier behind the top tier loot anyway.
Vanilla raiding, on the other hand, required a massive timesink to do it right, and if you weren't the one doing it, you can be damn sure your guild leader and officers were. Dark Iron farming and Fire Resist pot mat farming just so when we got to Rag and there would be 8 people who couldn't be assed to go to the AH or ask us before we left town, we'd have spares to divvy up (for a DKP cost of course)
Personally, I prefer the new style now that I'm an adult and have other responsibilities to worry about and can't dedicate the 16 hours a day I used to to raiding. There will always be cutting edge guilds who squeak out everything they can just to be first, but everything is eventually doable once people catch up to the gear level they need. In vanilla (and to an extent BC, before the island epics were added), it was nearly impossible to get to that gear level without the dedication to join a guild and raid day in and day out for the 20 pieces of loot that dropped in an entire instance and got split across 40 people.
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Possibly the best expansion they've made as far as I'm concerned. They put so much effort into polishing up Pandaria it really shows.
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On October 01 2012 04:15 caruso wrote:
I never understood the term "mouth breathers".
Doesn't that imply heavy physical activities? How does that make for a bad player?
Refers to people who, whenever they speak over voicechat, breathe into their mic and send static everywhere. Expanded to anyone who is annoying on voicechat.
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On October 01 2012 22:11 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2012 16:55 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:
The high-end guilds these days get first kills because they are the ones playing the game the most, not because they are that much better than everyone else. That's always been the case, to a degree. The rest (even today) is that high-end guilds have no tolerance for the people who would be the bottom third of a typical raiding guild, because those people are the ones who slow you down.
I agree 100% with that. But of you had the privilige to raid at a time when you faced a boss and there were no guides or kill videos and that stuff for a boss you would know how much more fun and rewarding it was to find out everything for yourself and actually THINK about everything rather than just perfecting a given strategy with a given cookie cutter build and skill rotation as it is now.
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People here are a little "overfocussing" on the consumeable requirement to raid in "old" WoW. My Guild was progress wise never really top but for some time "not bad" (serverfirst for Nefarian and second or something like that on some AQ40 bosses, but it was a transfer server so this was later than most servers killed that stuff) whiteout any excessive pot using/stacking/anything. Sadly it broke apart due to some personal issues between some core members which left us in shambles (and we never really recovered 100% because the server was very low pop and most good people were already taken).
If you weren't truly hardcore/top progress guild you really did not need that much... You just would down the bosses a Month later when you geared yourself a little more on the Bosses before the cockblocks (Ragnaros, Vael, Chromaggus, Nefarian, Huhuaran)... Pot jugging was really not that common until deep AQ40/Naxx, what was more common were Weapon-Oils because these stayed after dead while Flasks/Pots didn't.
The only fights I truly hated and needed serious farm were TRUE resistance fights like Huhuaran, that just felt totally stupid.
In TBC Buff-Farming was more important but also done really easy and quickly. Materials weren't really sparse, you could get them from dailies, they even dropped in the raid instances... So... Where is the problem? That you actually had to play the game and not just log in to get your free epics like it was after TBC?
Farming all this stuff was optional in most guilds and people still did it to do a better job or for some extra DKP.
Reading here it seems like you guys all are talking about uber progress guilds... Which is not what 90% of Raids were like at all... Classic WoW had huge issues (class balance/viability/design mainly) but being ridiculously farm heavy is not one of them). While most people, including me, may have rose tinted glasses when talking about it, others seem to only see darkness... Which is just as false.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On October 01 2012 23:40 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2012 22:11 Lysenko wrote:On October 01 2012 16:55 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:
The high-end guilds these days get first kills because they are the ones playing the game the most, not because they are that much better than everyone else. That's always been the case, to a degree. The rest (even today) is that high-end guilds have no tolerance for the people who would be the bottom third of a typical raiding guild, because those people are the ones who slow you down. I agree 100% with that. But of you had the privilige to raid at a time when you faced a boss and there were no guides or kill videos and that stuff for a boss you would know how much more fun and rewarding it was to find out everything for yourself and actually THINK about everything rather than just perfecting a given strategy with a given cookie cutter build and skill rotation as it is now.
thats not really a fault of the game design, as WoW grew more popular a demand for Guides came to be, Sites like Elitistjerks, Bosskillers.com etc all came to fruition. Everyone is constantly looking for how to down a boss the moment the PTR goes up and devise tactics to do so. By the time the boss comes out for real in the patch all tactics, the best way to down it and even new class builds, talents, gear etc are all readily available to anyone who has access to the internet.
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Kung Fu Pandas, a class copied from numerous other rpgs, pokemon battles... Yet another proof that the gaming industry is not drived by the thrill of making good games, but rather to make money no matter what. I spent hundreds of hours playing WoW and I still think those were tremendously fun and worthy. As of right now, I wouldn't be playing it not even if I'd get paid to do so.
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On October 01 2012 23:17 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
Possibly the best expansion they've made as far as I'm concerned. They put so much effort into polishing up Pandaria it really shows.
i agree 100%! i didnt have that much fun playing the game since burning crusade
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Has Blizzard released numbers on their MoP digital sales yet?
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I myself being someone out of school and works fulltime/has responsibilties etc., I can definitely understand the perspective of having limited time to put into an MMO. However, I really don't get the fact that they think the game should suffer for their own lack of time commitment. I don't' have as much time, so if I played, I could probably only do a casual raiding guild as opposed to the hardcore progression guilds I did before...but I certainly don't feel entitled that Blizzard should have changed their game so I could have everything I wanted in game and it would take barely any effort or commitment to get it. It goes against the genre, and makes the game overly simple and boring. Really unfortunate that this mentality contributed to the reason the game is in the state it is now.
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United States22883 Posts
On October 01 2012 06:52 Brett wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2012 03:32 Azuzu wrote:On September 30 2012 20:26 Brett wrote:On September 30 2012 19:57 paralleluniverse wrote:On September 30 2012 19:16 Brett wrote:On September 30 2012 17:14 Azuzu wrote:On September 30 2012 17:01 Brett wrote:On September 28 2012 02:06 Azuzu wrote:On September 27 2012 22:09 Brett wrote:Oh and just as an aside, whoever it was that made a comment about naxx 1.0, specifically Sapph, requiring world buffs... Sorry friend, your DPS just sucked balls  . Both my guild and the other top guild on my server back then NEVER world buffed. It's just the truth that there were LOTS of bad players being carried by good players back then, apparently it was your dps that sucked ;( It's about min maxing and giving the highest chance of success for each pull. It's not like you can world buff every pull, but after practicing the mechanics for a while, the buffs were sometimes just enough to push you over. So you don't *have* to world buff, but for those interested in playing optimally- you do. When you can down the boss without world buffs for your first kill, and then go on to one shot the fights consistently, and thus save yourself the hour of GETTING the buffs, it's suddenly suboptimal to do so. The point is that if you only gear up at a certain pace, there's no reason to wait for multiple weeks for more gear when there are world buffs. I would happily take the first kill a couple weeks sooner, get the new gear, and use that for kills where world buffs aren't necessary. Hence, optimal, and why nearly every top guild (at least on my server) did it. You had more than enough gear, assuming you got into Naxx early, and farmed gear for tanks for 4H, to roll Sapph without any world buffs. Most guilds just carried bad players. Players who couldn't dps properly. That's the point I was making. If you were needing weeks of gear to make those kills without the ONE attempt the world buffs brought, your DPS was even worse than I suspect. Bottom line: Someone said those fights required world buffs. They did not. At all. It's not about whether or not you "need" world buffs, in the sense that you cannot kill the boss without the buff. It's about whether or not it would improve your chance if you had world buffs. If you're doing progression raiding, as opposed to having the boss on farm, then you are obligated to stack every possible little advantage you can get. This is why people always choose the most optimal spec, even over other specs that does 2% less DPS which they personally enjoy more. No shit it improves your chances. Requiring however, is the wrong word. That is all I ever said. You also said it wasn't optimal. Regardless... you're still not understanding min maxing if you think requiring is the wrong word. If your goal is server/faction/nationality/world ranking, you will be required to do these things because your opponents sure will be. When you're min maxing, "required" is not the bare minimum you can you can get away with. My original comment was never about min-maxing. It was about a comment made that fights like sapph and loatheb required world buffs. That is false. And frankly, I dont think it was optimal from a time perspective to farm those buffs anyway. If you were close enough to a kill to get to the point where you'd consider spending the time to go get a hakar/rallying cry of dragonslayer buff you could have 5 to 10 more pulls on those bosses in the same amount of time, and if your dps didn't suck you probably kill the boss in those extra pulls anyway. Let's not forget, if you wiped, that time was completely wasted and you have to pull again without the buffs. The world buffs were relevant to top 5-10 world guilds at most, as they were pulling bosses considerably earlier in the zone's life with much less gear. Everyone else was separated by weeks, possibly months, and had more than enough gear to tackle the bosses without the buffs. The server first horde guild on my server got US 7th. They never world buffed. My alliance guild killed KT about 3 weeks later, US ~15-20. Again, no world buff ever used.
I think on our first or second KT kill, when we were getting the Hallow's End buff, our MT fell down the Undercity shaft and lost everything. D: So, yeah...
Also, after we wiped FH's world buffs, it spurred them on to their first Sapphiron kill!
That said, they're still pretty useful and you're missing one important aspect to them. You don't lose 5 or 10 extra pulls on bosses by world buffing because you don't spend any raid time on them. You do them before hand when there's only 20 or 30 people around, and raiding isn't an option anyways. It's not lost time - it's overlapped time while you're messing around on alts.
On September 29 2012 18:35 Canas wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 18:29 Lysenko wrote:On September 29 2012 10:45 czylu wrote:
when replenishment was a shadow priest only buff. Vampiric Embrace. "Replenishment" was the new name after everyone got it.  I loved BC, but man, it was never the heroics that struck me as horribly hard -- it was the leap between Karazhan/Gruul and Magtheridon/T5 content that was scary. Didn't magtheridon get nerfed pretty early though? Only like 4 guilds or so killed it before it got nerfed, then the fight really wasn't that hard? Same thing with hydross, he was fucking bullshit before he got nerfed, but he still got nerfed before most guilds had even entered serpentshrine. Loot reaver was never hard.
Gruul was nerfed significantly as well. Probably half the earliest kills were bugged Gruul killing himself.
Magtheridon was nerfed several times. The first was a bug fix on the channeled heal (Nihilum got it immediately after that.) A month later they hotfixed Gruul/Hydross/Mag but by then probably a couple dozen guilds had killed Magtheridon. Definitely not impossible. Then in May 2.1.0 made him accessible to everyone.
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/601157-Magtheridon-Gruul-Nightbane-Romulo-and-Julianne-nerfed-!
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Anyone interested in resurrecting me?
I've 4 weeks of basically free time and would love to check out MoP.
Nevermind, doesn't work on my account...
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Lol all you nostalgic guys would probably REALLY enjoy Buzzkills (at one point the best warlock in the game) column about the old times in Nihilum and later on Ensidia... the comment area usually features many old faces from times long gone. Usually those Buzz insults in his article.
http://www.manaflask.com/en/features/28/Buzzkills-Lair/p/1/
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On October 02 2012 00:17 kiy0 wrote:
Kung Fu Pandas, a class copied from numerous other rpgs,
You want to be more specific about from where you think they copied the idea? Blizzard's concept for the Pandaren race dates back to roughly 2000. I'm having trouble finding other examples of pandas in RPGs (maybe that part of your comment was just referring to the Monk class?) And, of course, it's not as though the rest of Warcraft's design didn't come straight from Warhammer or any of 100 other RPGs as well.
Most of the people I've heard complaining that they copied the concept refer back to the Dreamworks Animation movie Kung Fu Panda from 2008. As it turns out, I was working at Dreamworks Animation when that film was in development and the concept for the movie definitely originated there after the Pandaren were playable in Warcraft 3: The Frozen Throne.
If anything, the Pandaren seem to me to be one of the more original conceptual elements they've ever introduced into the game. Not to mention that I recall people begging them for a playable Pandaren race at Blizzcon four or five years ago, and everyone seemed pretty into the idea then.
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On October 02 2012 01:28 Irre wrote:
I certainly don't feel entitled that Blizzard should have changed their game so I could have everything I wanted in game and it would take barely any effort or commitment to get it. It goes against the genre, and makes the game overly simple and boring. Really unfortunate that this mentality contributed to the reason the game is in the state it is now.
I think this particular complaint about where they've gone is really overstated by lots of the people who bring it up. What they've done is provide three difficulty levels for their raiding content along with three quality levels of wearable gear with similar models. They've also introduced a some gear that's similar to the lower end of these in quality that one can get by doing things other than raiding.
Most of the complaining about this isn't that they've made everything accessible to everyone, it's complaining from people who do the higher difficulty modes who aren't happy that people can do easier versions of the same content and get lower quality versions of the same items.
Thing is, at the same time that they've opened up easier versions of their raiding content, they've added features like achievements, titles, and occasionally difficult to get vanity items that give those high-end players the same opportunity to show off that they've ever had, just in a different way.
Trust me, if you join the game and load up on epics from justice point vendors and late-expansion 5-mans, you'll be able to catch up a little faster in terms of stats to people who have been raiding the whole time, but it's not as though anyone will ever inspect your character and mistake you for someone who's been raiding.
Edit: To put this in practical terms, at the end of Wrath, when I was in full heroic ICC gear (and after these changes were all in place) I'd join 5-mans in the dungeon finder and have people inspect me and say "holy crap, you have great gear." That it looked, outwardly, like what a lot of other people had didn't temper that reaction.
Edit 2: One GREAT thing about these changes was that the pool of possible recruits exploded. Late in Vanilla, if you were in a guild running Naxx, you pretty much were stuck recruiting from guilds that had been in AQ40 for a while. Now, it's a lot more viable to bring in someone who's a good player but maybe taken a break or something, give them some time to gear up using all these other means, and get them into your raid.
For me at least, I was always happy that my friends who hadn't followed me into a more serious raiding guild were able to run the same content and do similar but easier versions of the same fights. It let us have some common ground to talk about our raiding experiences, even if they weren't doing the version of the fight that I was.
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For me and many others the problem is the following:
Wiping on a Boss you allready have beaten "optically" is not the same as engaging this "new" Boss that wops your ass several time. It's just not motivating... That the next step of content will override all your gear in a heartbeat and even the stuff from "easymodes" is nearly on par for sure doesn't help eiter, but it's not the main point.
If i killed Blackwing, i killed Blackwing. If there is a "story" version to do him in a harder way that would be ok, but that fight better look totally diffrent else it just does not feel unique.
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On October 02 2012 13:17 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2012 00:17 kiy0 wrote:
Kung Fu Pandas, a class copied from numerous other rpgs, You want to be more specific about from where you think they copied the idea? Blizzard's concept for the Pandaren race dates back to roughly 2000. I'm having trouble finding other examples of pandas in RPGs (maybe that part of your comment was just referring to the Monk class?) And, of course, it's not as though the rest of Warcraft's design didn't come straight from Warhammer or any of 100 other RPGs as well. Most of the people I've heard complaining that they copied the concept refer back to the Dreamworks Animation movie Kung Fu Panda from 2008. As it turns out, I was working at Dreamworks Animation when that film was in development and the concept for the movie definitely originated there after the Pandaren were playable in Warcraft 3: The Frozen Throne. If anything, the Pandaren seem to me to be one of the more original conceptual elements they've ever introduced into the game. Not to mention that I recall people begging them for a playable Pandaren race at Blizzcon four or five years ago, and everyone seemed pretty into the idea then.
I think he meant the monk class as the class copied from numerous other rpgs.
I don't get why all you old 'hardcore' guys complain. Sure it was better before, but everything changes.
BW is a lot better than SC2 as well, but you have to accept that SC2 is the new thing now, and BW is dying. Don't go and complain about it in every thread about SC2.
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Gotta say I'm really enjoying MoP. World PvP is alive, the concentrated style of the talent system although decpitivly shallow on appearahce actually makes for some really difficult and game altering choices.
As someone who stopped during the start of Cata due to boredom and burnout, I'm really glad I decided to pick up MoP.
If anyone needs a scroll of ressurection I'm happy to help out! Just PM me ya details.
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EPT
