[wow] Mists of pandaria - Page 59

On October 02 2012 17:00 jexxto wrote:
Gotta say I'm really enjoying MoP. World PvP is alive, the concentrated style of the talent system although decpitivly shallow on appearahce actually makes for some really difficult and game altering choices.

As someone who stopped during the start of Cata due to boredom and burnout, I'm really glad I decided to pick up MoP.

If anyone needs a scroll of ressurection I'm happy to help out! Just PM me ya details.

On October 03 2012 00:02 Swish 41 wrote:


Do you seriously think you will have still fun in 2 weeks? Even I had a little bit fun with Cata the first 2 weeks, when the Heroics were still hard.
I made a Panda and looked at the Pokemon-thingy with my Cata-Trial Account and its just the same shit over again... I don't see how this Expansion is anthing different from Casualysm...

On October 02 2012 01:28 Irre wrote:
I myself being someone out of school and works fulltime/has responsibilties etc., I can definitely understand the perspective of having limited time to put into an MMO. However, I really don't get the fact that they think the game should suffer for their own lack of time commitment. I don't' have as much time, so if I played, I could probably only do a casual raiding guild as opposed to the hardcore progression guilds I did before...but I certainly don't feel entitled that Blizzard should have changed their game so I could have everything I wanted in game and it would take barely any effort or commitment to get it. It goes against the genre, and makes the game overly simple and boring. Really unfortunate that this mentality contributed to the reason the game is in the state it is now.

On October 03 2012 00:25 Hryul wrote:

You do know that the engine is set in stone and they won't change the very heart of WoW? Most of it's success came from the fact that they opened up to more "casual" players but raiding was never "hard" in the sense you need to be masters player in sc2 or B+ on ICCup. You mostly needed people who weren't half braindead and understood fire = bad and surviving > getting that firebolt cast through (and: having a good spec/rota). The hardest part was finding those people and coordinating them.
I think they (Blizz) are doing a great job given the limits the game engine sets them. But you won't see anything groundbreaking. Love it or hate it.
E: I quit, mostly because I was annoyed by people who had a learning curve of old bread and "top raiders" who thought they were soo much better than anyone else. read: the typical mid tier raiding guild

On October 02 2012 23:36 Enox wrote:
i just found this article:

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-09-28-blizzards-success-isnt-magic-just-hard-work-and-open-minds?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=european-daily

very nice read

Because, deeply counter-intuitively, the vocal hardcore aren't actually the "whales" of the MMO market. They subscribe to a new game, race through the content at record speed (often being abrasive or unpleasant to other players en route, although that's by no means the case for all of them), reach the endgame, hammer at if for a short amount of time - and then move on to the next big MMO, where the cycle repeats itself.

On October 03 2012 00:41 Ansinjunger wrote:


I quit due to the watering down. I'm actually playing ToR in spite of how much I blast Bioware for ME3 and their continuing silence about the very valid criticisms toward that game.

But what attracted me to your post is the idea of imps canceling their firebolts

WoW still beats ToR for pure gameplay crispness, but it's become way more faceroll, and itemization is a complete snoozefest ever since Trial of the Crusader patch. Now, Intellect doesn't even give mana? wth is that. It probably shouldn't have given both spellpower and mana, but that's just one less way that players can make decisions and be rewarded for them (pallies used to stack int when it gave 15% spellpower through a talent, and they could enjoy their huge mana pool as something they "earned," even if that feeling was largely an illusion and not perfectly balanced).

I like the new talents, but they come at a price too high, which is removing the old talents. Cata was bad enough as it took away a ton of selection, and MoP completed that. You choose a spec and you get stuck with like 6-10 abilities and passives. Sure, most of those were cookie cutter and the "right" choice before, but it was still rewarding to select them and still find some unique build. For instance, many priests liked to skip spirit of redemption. For one, it's really embarrassing. Two, once it no longer provided 5% spirit, I simply felt I could get more out of my talents elsewhere and not die, thereby not needing that talent anyway.

MoP may have great story-telling, by WoW standards (I'm guessing they're now the ones copying ToR, a funny reversal, but I haven't actually played it), but I have little doubt that the newness will wear off quicker than ever. Taking away player choice is rarely a good thing. WoW has continually evolved from the invisible guiding hand to one that's unavoidable and removes the joy of discovery.

On October 03 2012 00:02 Swish 41 wrote:


Do you seriously think you will have still fun in 2 weeks? Even I had a little bit fun with Cata the first 2 weeks, when the Heroics were still hard.
I made a Panda and looked at the Pokemon-thingy with my Cata-Trial Account and its just the same shit over again... I don't see how this Expansion is anthing different from Casualysm...

On October 03 2012 00:02 Swish 41 wrote:


Do you seriously think you will have still fun in 2 weeks? Even I had a little bit fun with Cata the first 2 weeks, when the Heroics were still hard.
I made a Panda and looked at the Pokemon-thingy with my Cata-Trial Account and its just the same shit over again... I don't see how this Expansion is anthing different from Casualysm...

On October 03 2012 01:19 Malinor wrote:
I am reading all of this thread with a lot of interest. For me as someone who played Vanilla to Wrath, it often is very hard to distinguish between nostalgia and valid complaints.

Vanilla had a lot of flaws, WoW was just my first MMO in my second favourite gaming universe (behind SC), everything was fresh and new and great and fantastic. It was a crazy good game, but as for the flaws there were plenty. Reputation grinding was super hardcore, as a later player it was close to impossible to gear your character towards AQ40 or Naxx, only if you found a higher tier raiding guild who pushed you. And the PvP system was bad.
TBC adressed so many of the problems that Vanilla had and therefore really was great. PvP became so much better with arena, Jewel Crafting was super meaningful, heroic 5s epics, badge gear and some of the professions gave you great gear to start your raiding career even if you were late to the party, without being too powerful. Rep-grinding was still hard, but much more doable. The story line was awesome as well.
I also enjoyed the story line and the world in Wrath a lot, but besides that there were many problems. Heroics were a total joke, epics were EVERYWHERE, you literally could not avoid being decked out in them within 2 weeks of hitting max level. And reputation grinding became a cakewalk, 4 weeks of dailies and you were through. But it didn't matter anyway, because the rewards more often than not weren't that great. And I guess I like different instances for 10 and 25men, but I can see that it may be better for most the way it is now.
So I think that TBC was still hardcore enough but had lots of things to offer for casual players, and Wrath just made everything too easy. And they were never really able to balance out PvP or make any progress in it (which was obviously not great in TBC, I played Shaman so I remember the pain).

Today, I am very tempted to buy the game for additional 2-3 months, since I have heard a lot of good things about the world and the design, I especially like what they have done to cooking, that sounds totally nice. But aside from that from a competitive perspective this game has been dumped down. It really just is "Don't stand in the fire and wipe until the boss dies". I played a week before MoP thanks to RaF. Some 85 friends showed me some instances and when I realized that I could Hex a target and afterwards send a Chain Lightning into the pack without it ever hitting the hexed target, I was just in total disbelief. That is such a core mechanic: CC a target and make sure it doesn't get damaged somehow. That they took this out is not about some casual vs hardcore players, this is just so stupidly easy. I had anouther example of this, but it espaces me at the moment. Also things like Hearth Stone (don't know if it is spelled right) with 15 minute cd (plus all the other different cooldowns to change places) combined with portals and flying points EVERYWHERE... you just can cross the workd world three times in less than ten minutes, this just doesn't feel like an MMO and that you live in this world. It takes away from my enjoyment of the world.

Another thing I miss is the uniqueness of the classes. I played Warlock in Vanilla and I actually would prefer if Soul Shards were still in the game, it somehoe made you unique. Same with ammo for hunters. And that there is no relicts/wands etc. anymore also is something I really miss, basically everything that made your character unique. What I don't appreciate in terms of uniqueness though is the amount of different flying mounts... there must be like thousands of them. Being in a capital is like being in a futuristic zoo, it looks ridiculous.

On October 03 2012 01:27 paralleluniverse wrote:

1. Wrath was not easy: Sarth+3, Heroic Freya, Firefighter, Yogg+0, Algalon, Heroic Anub'arak, Heroic Lich King, Heroic Halion. These were all very very hard encounters that very few people were able to beat, harder than most TBC raids.

2. You can still break cc with direct attacks.

3. Shards are not removed, they're now an affliction warlock resource. Now you don't have to waste half an hour pointlessly farming 40 of them before the raid (or in the middle of the raid).

4. Wands were stat sticks. They still exist, they're now equipped on the main-hand since the range slot is gone.

On October 03 2012 00:42 paralleluniverse wrote:

This is a bullshit article.

It says that WoW's development is data driven, and while it's reasonable to assume that part of it is, the key example the article gives of data driven design are systems revamps, the main one being the new talent system. But what possible data could Blizzard have collected to suggest that players wanted a new talent system? When did Blizzard survey players with how the talent system should be revamped? It's simply nonsense. There's no evidence that the talent system revamp was based off data, or that it could possibly be based off data. What type of data? It was almost certainly a design choice. As stated when the new talent system was announced, designers realized the previous system was flawed, so they made a completely new one.

It says that MoP is aimed at "tweens" and young people. But young people aren't interested in pandas, young people are interested in video games with blood, gore, violence and murder. Pandas probably appeals to 8 year old girls. But appealing to this demographic makes no sense as average video game players are in their late 20s.

It says that WoW is not designed for hardcore players, then why are there heroic raids that only a very tiny percentage of players can beat? Why are there exclusive mounts and titles associated with beating this heroic content? These are bonuses that increase the epeen of hardcore players.

The fact is WoW is catered to everyone, from mouth-breathing noobs (joke mode content like "heroic" dungeons and LFR), to the most hardcore players (heroic raids, challenge modes, arenas).

The example of data-driven decisions that the writer should have given are nerfs to raid content (this is based off the percentage of guilds who've hit a wall), Pokemon (this is due to complaints of having nothing to do in Cata other than dailies and raids) and the level 1-60 revamp (this was based off statistics that most players quit in the first several levels). These are real examples where Blizzard have explicitly stated that decisions are data driven. The article just makes shit up.

Then there's this gem:

On October 03 2012 02:20 czylu wrote:


w/ regards to the talent system overhaul, that was absolutely data driven decision. I remember during WOTLK(the last time you had true freedom in placing your talents), there was a site the compiled the most popular builds and you would see that almost 50% of a certain class had the same numbers(like 51/0/20). The builds most 90% of players picked were cookie-cutter, with minor differences relating to gear and preference(ie i take +hit% talents if I rolled under the hitcap, but I'd pick something else if I got a new weapon with hit on it). I'm sure Blizzard saw this too and it was the driving force behind the locked specializations when Cata was released.
Sure, most of the player base hated the fact that the new talent system implemented. I was one of them. Losing that freedom meant that some of my favorite hybrid builds in the past would never happen again(i was a warlock and I loved sl/sl and the ds/ruin builds). But in retrospect playing MoP now, I realized that those talents gave us the illusion of choice, as every1 ended up picking the same ones anyway. The new talents give us REAL choice. Whether you roll w/ ShadowFury or Deathcoil(mortalcoil as it's called now -.-) isn't really gonna affect your overall raid dps or your pvp CC chain(they both have no affect on fear DR and CC for the same amount of time), it's now your PREFERENCE.

And don't be stupid, little kids love pandas. Even the kids that want to blow stuff u w/ rpgs, would love to do it w/ a panda character wielding an rpg. Why do u think the ninja turtles got so much love?

On October 03 2012 02:20 czylu wrote:


w/ regards to the talent system overhaul, that was absolutely data driven decision. I remember during WOTLK(the last time you had true freedom in placing your talents), there was a site the compiled the most popular builds and you would see that almost 50% of a certain class had the same numbers(like 51/0/20). The builds most 90% of players picked were cookie-cutter, with minor differences relating to gear and preference(ie i take +hit% talents if I rolled under the hitcap, but I'd pick something else if I got a new weapon with hit on it). I'm sure Blizzard saw this too and it was the driving force behind the locked specializations when Cata was released.
Sure, most of the player base hated the fact that the new talent system implemented. I was one of them. Losing that freedom meant that some of my favorite hybrid builds in the past would never happen again(i was a warlock and I loved sl/sl and the ds/ruin builds). But in retrospect playing MoP now, I realized that those talents gave us the illusion of choice, as every1 ended up picking the same ones anyway. The new talents give us REAL choice. Whether you roll w/ ShadowFury or Deathcoil(mortalcoil as it's called now -.-) isn't really gonna affect your overall raid dps or your pvp CC chain(they both have no affect on fear DR and CC for the same amount of time), it's now your PREFERENCE.

And don't be stupid, little kids love pandas. Even the kids that want to blow stuff u w/ rpgs, would love to do it w/ a panda character wielding an rpg. Why do u think the ninja turtles got so much love?

On October 03 2012 02:28 arb wrote:

.. they named it mortalcoil? LOL what the fuck. Hasnt it been Death Coil since like WC1?

On October 03 2012 00:32 andrewlt wrote:


The genre is struggling. The pay for subscription model is dying and being replaced by the less profitable microtransaction model. Blizzard is a business. Having unemployed people as their main target demographic is not a recipe for a good business. They don't care how nostalgic you are for your college days when you can bum around all day. It's all about targeting people who have the same time constraints you currently have.

On October 03 2012 02:27 paralleluniverse wrote:
The fact that everyone used the same spec wouldn't be the piece of data that caused the change in the talent system. Everyone knew that everyone used the same spec, you didn't need data to tell you that.

Ninja Turtles appeals to 8 year olds, not 18 year olds. 18 year olds watch violent movies and pornography, not kiddie shows and pandas.

On October 03 2012 02:55 Lysenko wrote:


Their issue with the old talent system was that everyone making identical choices negated the purpose of the system, which was to enable customization, and the point of making data-driven choices is to back up what everyone thinks they "know" with real data. The new system is harder to min-max, because there are only a few talents that would be necessary for whatever thing you're doing, and the rest is flavor.

As for the appeal of pandas, like I posted up above there really were a lot of people asking for a playable Pandaren race for a long time. I don't think it's as easy as picking out some demographic slice and saying "THESE are the people who love pandas!" but it probably skews toward women and kids (and women have always been a big part of WoW's target audience, far more so than many other video games.)

And let's be honest, WoW has always been a pretty damn whimsical game. Anything gnome or goblin, for example, has always been played for a laugh. Quests and NPCs have always had wink-and-nod pop culture references. What's made it work so well as storytelling over the years is the way it could throw in all these fun, lighthearted things and then once in a while strike a genuinely poignant, morally ambiguous, or tragic note. The serious moments are effective largely because they're so rare and such a contrast.